60083 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

I think the point might sort of be that this discussion doesn't really belong in this thread. It's an interesting topic, and probably deserving of it's own thread.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

And what of those elves who are gay? They should ignore what they want and just go try to breed with some other elf cause they have a genetic responsibility?

Yes.
If they want their people to survive, they will have to do it.

If they don't care, then oh well. Just don't blame humans if the elves go extinct.

I would say that elves have a few more grievances with humans than the very few consensual breeding arrangements that seem to occur in Thedas.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
I'd think the world itself shows how paranoid these concepts actually were -- consider the Jews today live very much in the way which was supposed to weaken them and threaten their survival.

I guess it depends on perspective. Many consider most Jews to just be nomaly so and not really so. But that's very complicated. There is no clear definition of what a Jew is and that's still heavily debated within the community.
But that's clear with the elves, genetically speaking. And culturally, the Dalish are more "elven" than the Alienage ones, imo. I guess that can be argued.

tmp7704 wrote...
They did not survive because they were hated and persecuted. They did so despite these hardships. Yes, sticking together was large factor which helped them , but it worked as reaction to threat rather than basic requirement no matter the circumstances.

The elves are faced with similar circumstances and right now they need to focus on the group and not really opening up to humans. They are culturally too weak to do so right now, while the Jews still had their religion, most of their culture...etc.

Of course the Jews onlyreally thrived during the Middle Ages in Muslim Spain because they were tolerated, but intermixing still rarely happened between the two.

But I guess the Jewish example was a bad one. It's too complicated.

EDIT: Yea I guess human elven relations is too off topic and might be taken personally in this thread.

I'll stop discussing it now.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 juin 2010 - 01:06 .

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

You don't think it's a bit rude to trivialize someone's concerns about the elven race as a whole going extinct by making snide comments about how Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race?

And I'm not saying it's realistic to expect inherently selfish people to give up their human lovers but that doesn't mean that the problem of the elven extinction is going to go away.

Wait, rude? trivializing? Come on now. We're talking about  fantasy world not the real one, you're taking it a bit far now.

[TotoroTori]

tmp7704 wrote...

TotoroTori wrote...

Yuki you made her look older but it looks good on her....

Yup, funny but the hair with bangs seems to have this effect. Especially with the ponytail. When i put it on my CE while testing earlier it was like "whoa, she totally went from her '16 tops' to 'at least 17, maybe even 18' there"

So she is finally able to be old enough to be a warden?

by the way are you going to make more hairstyles?

[Kryyptehk]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

Exactly. I'm sure that the caucasian race won't be around in a couple of hundred years, because of the recessive traits and all, but that wouldn't stop me from being with someone who wasn't my race.

But I'm pretty selfish, it's true:P

That's not the same thing at all. Your genes won't completely disappear if you reproduce with someone of a different race and the elves, unlike the caucasians, are a different species.

Uh, given enough cross-breeding, yes, all my traits would disappear. Not to mention that I'm American, so I don't really have a culture. So if I married someone who wasn't an American caucasian then after a few generations, my genes would completely disappear.

Elves don't have much of a culture and their genes are recessive. It's similar enough.

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

You don't think it's a bit rude to trivialize someone's concerns about the elven race as a whole going extinct by making snide comments about how Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race?

And I'm not saying it's realistic to expect inherently selfish people to give up their human lovers but that doesn't mean that the problem of the elven extinction is going to go away.

Sarah I think Yuki is responding in kind since you keep saying the PC is selfish to be with her human lover instead of finding some elf to have babies with (that may not get born anyway) Perhaps you should choose a different less inflammatory word to describe it.  Love might be selfish in that the heart wants what the heart wants, that doesn't make those people selfish it makes them well..."human"

and to whitewash it saying that dwarves and humans who romance zevran shouldn't be concerned about his race is the same argument in reverse, they are being "selfish" for denying his race the chance to survive by tying up his affections.

I say let it go and not worry overmuch about a game issue that won't see fruition for centuries (if ever) I don't see the Dalish clans mingling with humans much anyway even if all the elves in Alienages do.  I don't feel as a player your concerns are going to affect the elven race that much.  They aren't all suddenly going to jump on the human bandwagon just because the PC might be.

[mellifera]

Sarah1281 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

You don't think it's a bit rude to trivialize someone's concerns about the elven race as a whole going extinct by making snide comments about how Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race?

And I'm not saying it's realistic to expect inherently selfish people to give up their human lovers but that doesn't mean that the problem of the elven extinction is going to go away.

Of course it's a cause for concern that the elven race might die out. I am not denying that. But it is just not feasible that most people will forgo their love and lust because of what may or may not happen generations from now. I truly do not see it as the duty of an individual to deny themselves what makes them happy because of such future problems. Those who think it is their duty and want to reproduce with each other, it is their choice. Not because of some rule or duty that they have, but because they choose to do so.

So, in my opinion gay elves, childless elves, and elves who wanna do it with humans? That's their prerogative. If the demise of their race happens because of this, it will happen. It is sad that it happens but there are just way, way too many variables involved to say that they should stick to each other in order to ensure the future of their race.

[Kryyptehk]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

You don't think it's a bit rude to trivialize someone's concerns about the elven race as a whole going extinct by making snide comments about how Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race?

And I'm not saying it's realistic to expect inherently selfish people to give up their human lovers but that doesn't mean that the problem of the elven extinction is going to go away.

Wait, rude? trivializing? Come on now. We're talking about  fantasy world not the real one, you're taking it a bit far now.

This. Discussing a problem that doesn't actually exist is fine but don't take it offensively if other people want to go back to the topic on hand. That being Alistair.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

You don't think it's a bit rude to trivialize someone's concerns about the elven race as a whole going extinct by making snide comments about how Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race?

And I'm not saying it's realistic to expect inherently selfish people to give up their human lovers but that doesn't mean that the problem of the elven extinction is going to go away.

Wait, rude? trivializing? Come on now. We're talking about  fantasy world not the real one, you're taking it a bit far now.

So because the debate in question involves fictional subjects that means that it's impossible for rudeness or trivializing to occur? 

I feel posting a picture of Alistair and an elf having sex with the accompanying remark that Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race in the middle of that discussion to be rude and making it sound like 'if only the PC didn't romance Alistair then the elven race would be fine' to be trivializing it.

Please explain to me how that is going to far.

[TotoroTori]

Daa...Love and peace?

[Herr Uhl]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uh, given enough cross-breeding, yes, all my traits would disappear. Not to mention that I'm American, so I don't really have a culture. So if I married someone who wasn't an American caucasian then after a few generations, my genes would completely disappear.

Elves don't have much of a culture and their genes are recessive. It's similar enough.

Your (see you, not your "race") traits disappear at the same rate no matter whom you mate with. The comparison isn't valid.

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

You don't think it's a bit rude to trivialize someone's concerns about the elven race as a whole going extinct by making snide comments about how Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race?

And I'm not saying it's realistic to expect inherently selfish people to give up their human lovers but that doesn't mean that the problem of the elven extinction is going to go away.

Sarah I think Yuki is responding in kind since you keep saying the PC is selfish to be with her human lover instead of finding some elf to have babies with (that may not get born anyway) Perhaps you should choose a different less inflammatory word to describe it.  Love might be selfish in that the heart wants what the heart wants, that doesn't make those people selfish it makes them well..."human"

and to whitewash it saying that dwarves and humans who romance zevran shouldn't be concerned about his race is the same argument in reverse, they are being "selfish" for denying his race the chance to survive by tying up his affections.

I say let it go and not worry overmuch about a game issue that won't see fruition for centuries (if ever) I don't see the Dalish clans mingling with humans much anyway even if all the elves in Alienages do.  I don't feel as a player your concerns are going to affect the elven race that much.  They aren't all suddenly going to jump on the human bandwagon just because the PC might be.

But I've already said that I'm NOT talking about the PC. And the definition of selfish is "the precedence given in thought or deed to the self, i.e., self interest or self concern. It is the act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others." Having human children (note that this doesn't even apply to the elf warden/Alistair) instead of having elf children for the good of the elf species is putting your wants/desires above the wants/desires of the elves as a whole and that is the definition of selfish. Selfish doesn't have to necessarily be bad or unreasonable. It is jut putting yourself first.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Who started the discussion anyways? Was it me?

If so, now I know why....*eats popcorn*

[sylvanaerie]

Just because he loooks so adorable in this picture...

[Sarah1281]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

You don't think it's a bit rude to trivialize someone's concerns about the elven race as a whole going extinct by making snide comments about how Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race?

And I'm not saying it's realistic to expect inherently selfish people to give up their human lovers but that doesn't mean that the problem of the elven extinction is going to go away.

Wait, rude? trivializing? Come on now. We're talking about  fantasy world not the real one, you're taking it a bit far now.

This. Discussing a problem that doesn't actually exist is fine but don't take it offensively if other people want to go back to the topic on hand. That being Alistair.

I don't have a problem with getting back to Alistair. It was the 'oh, and look! My PC and Alistair are destroying the race' that was the problem. If you just started picspamming him and didn't at all reference to what you want dropped (honestly, if you reference something you don't want to talk about in an effort to move on then it won't work) then I wouldn't care.

[Kryyptehk]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uh, given enough cross-breeding, yes, all my traits would disappear. Not to mention that I'm American, so I don't really have a culture. So if I married someone who wasn't an American caucasian then after a few generations, my genes would completely disappear.

Elves don't have much of a culture and their genes are recessive. It's similar enough.

Your (see you, not your "race") traits disappear at the same rate no matter whom you mate with. The comparison isn't valid.

I like how you put quotations around race, like sense I'm caucasian I'm not a race. Obviously.

Right, this thread is not so fun anymore with Sarah having a panic attack and people devolving into arguments. Not so fun. See you guys later.

[mellifera]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Who started the discussion anyways? Was it me?
If so, now I know why....*eats popcorn*

You had something to do with it.

[Sarah1281]

yukidama wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Heh, I am not really taking it personally at all. I just think that it's not realistic at all to think people would give up their lovers and forgo their sexual orientation or lack of desire to have children because the race could potentially die out a millennium later.

And because I am so snotty,

You don't think it's a bit rude to trivialize someone's concerns about the elven race as a whole going extinct by making snide comments about how Alistair is single-handedly destroying the elf race?

And I'm not saying it's realistic to expect inherently selfish people to give up their human lovers but that doesn't mean that the problem of the elven extinction is going to go away.

Of course it's a cause for concern that the elven race might die out. I am not denying that. But it is just not feasible that most people will forgo their love and lust because of what may or may not happen generations from now. I truly do not see it as the duty of an individual to deny themselves what makes them happy because of such future problems. Those who think it is their duty and want to reproduce with each other, it is their choice. Not because of some rule or duty that they have, but because they choose to do so.

So, in my opinion gay elves, childless elves, and elves who wanna do it with humans? That's their prerogative. If the demise of their race happens because of this, it will happen. It is sad that it happens but there are just way, way too many variables involved to say that they should stick to each other in order to ensure the future of their race.

I am not saying 'Deny yourself your lover (especially if it's Alistair) so your race will continue to thrive.' I'm saying that if humans and elves continue to interbreed then the elves will die out which you just agreed with. The elf species as a whole needs to avoid that in order to survive but I'm not trying to suggest we should force apart all lovers in order to achieve this.

Just because it is necessary for their survival does not mean it is nice or that it will happen.

[TotoroTori]

yukidama wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Who started the discussion anyways? Was it me?
If so, now I know why....*eats popcorn*

You had something to do with it.

Phoenix why do you love causing chaos in a calm way, you almost like Light from Death Note...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
Right, this thread is not so fun anymore with Sarah having a panic attack and people devolving into arguments. Not so fun. See you guys later.

Hey wait! I'm still here and I am fun...

Ok maybe not so much. But we can start betting on stuff and eat pocorn while seeing who "wins" in a pointless argument that maybe I started just because.
 
That's fun.

[mellifera]

[Sarah1281]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uh, given enough cross-breeding, yes, all my traits would disappear. Not to mention that I'm American, so I don't really have a culture. So if I married someone who wasn't an American caucasian then after a few generations, my genes would completely disappear.

Elves don't have much of a culture and their genes are recessive. It's similar enough.

Your (see you, not your "race") traits disappear at the same rate no matter whom you mate with. The comparison isn't valid.

I like how you put quotations around race, like sense I'm caucasian I'm not a race. Obviously.

Right, this thread is not so fun anymore with Sarah having a panic attack and people devolving into arguments. Not so fun. See you guys later.

I'm not having a panic attack.  There's really no need to go flinging around accusations like that. What I was TRYING to do with the post in question was point out that I wasn't talking about your PC and Alistair.

And your child would still be human.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TotoroTori wrote...

yukidama wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Who started the discussion anyways? Was it me?
If so, now I know why....*eats popcorn*

You had something to do with it.

Phoenix why do you love causing chaos in a calm way, you almost like Light from Death Note...

I am orderly chaotic, what can I say.

Plus, Skadi loves the chaos, so I provide.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But I've already said that I'm NOT talking about the PC. And the definition of selfish is "the precedence given in thought or deed to the self, i.e., self interest or self concern. It is the act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others." Having human children (note that this doesn't even apply to the elf warden/Alistair) instead of having elf children for the good of the elf species is putting your wants/desires above the wants/desires of the elves as a whole and that is the definition of selfish. Selfish doesn't have to necessarily be bad or unreasonable. It is jut putting yourself first.

If not Elf warden/Alistair, then what's the point? I mean they're pretty much the only elf/human pairing in the Dragon Age world, since Fiona and Maric.  Oh and there's Soris, which isn't a 100% sure thing, you don't see it every game. So that's three known instances in...20ish years? That's maybe...1% of 1% of 1% of the ENTIRE population in that time. I mean unless there's some Frelden census aspect to the game I'm missing, I fail to see what the big deal is, if you don't mean the PC. Because the PC+Alistair is the only one ANYONE can control in the first place. So if that's not who you're talking about, why does it matter at all?

edit for ToP

Modifié par Lady Jess, 14 juin 2010 - 01:19 .