60083 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I'm not disagreeing with you.  But I think in a medieval setting, everyone grows up a little faster.Alistair does seem young, even for his age.  And yes, it does explain a lot.

I don't know that I'd say that.  Perhaps because I don't equate being sheltered with being immature.  The monastic life teaches discipline and maturity of its own kind, an inner experience if you will.  Alistair mentions this when he talks about his templar training.  It's not worldly experience, but it's not like his life would have been completely cut off, either.  He participated in tourneys, saw a Harrowing, so it's not like he was completely locked away.  Plus he also had a more varied childhood as ward of a noble than would, say, the city elf PC.

But maybe I'm not following you and you're thinking of something else.

I'm not sure maturity is all one package, that either you have it or you don't have. People can react more or less mature in different situations. Alistair has probably grown up in a way that makes him a lot more experienced than most of us on this thread (I sincerely hope) with pain and death, but still inexperienced when it comes to love and sex.

Sadly it's now way past bedtime for me here in Sweden so good night to you all.

[Sarah1281]

I think Alistair has his moments of immaturity although that doesn't necessarily make him an immature person overall. Basically, whenever he is allowing his feelings to make his choices for him and ends up putting the rookie in charge, storming out of the Landsmeet and not helping with the Blight, not telling you that he's Maric's son until he absolutely has to...those all strike me as very immature things to do. I'm not saying he doesn't have reasons for them and it isn't understandable but if he were a few years older and had more life experience and presumably maturity in these areas then he would probably make different choices.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think Alistair has his moments of immaturity although that doesn't necessarily make him an immature person overall. Basically, whenever he is allowing his feelings to make his choices for him and ends up putting the rookie in charge, storming out of the Landsmeet and not helping with the Blight, not telling you that he's Maric's son until he absolutely has to...those all strike me as very immature things to do. I'm not saying he doesn't have reasons for them and it isn't understandable but if he were a few years older and had more life experience and presumably maturity in these areas then he would probably make different choices.

Morrigan has a couple moments too come to think of it. Not near as many. But she does storm off if you refuse her ritual. Same as Alistair though, that can pretty much be traced back to her upbringing. But it never gets mentioned, so I thought I'd bit the bullet and say out loud that Morrigan has at least ONE moment of immaturity.

I'm going to attempt romance the woman with Kenneth...cuz, you know, Zevran wasn't complicated enough.

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think Alistair has his moments of immaturity although that doesn't necessarily make him an immature person overall. Basically, whenever he is allowing his feelings to make his choices for him and ends up putting the rookie in charge, storming out of the Landsmeet and not helping with the Blight, not telling you that he's Maric's son until he absolutely has to...those all strike me as very immature things to do. I'm not saying he doesn't have reasons for them and it isn't understandable but if he were a few years older and had more life experience and presumably maturity in these areas then he would probably make different choices.

Morrigan has a couple moments too come to think of it. Not near as many. But she does storm off if you refuse her ritual. Same as Alistair though, that can pretty much be traced back to her upbringing. But it never gets mentioned, so I thought I'd bit the bullet and say out loud that Morrigan has at least ONE moment of immaturity.

I'm going to attempt romance the woman with Kenneth...cuz, you know, Zevran wasn't complicated enough.

I find her parroting her mother's beliefs and begging you to break up with her because she's scared of love not to be the most mature things in the world, either. They all have their moments.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think Alistair has his moments of immaturity although that doesn't necessarily make him an immature person overall. Basically, whenever he is allowing his feelings to make his choices for him and ends up putting the rookie in charge, storming out of the Landsmeet and not helping with the Blight, not telling you that he's Maric's son until he absolutely has to...those all strike me as very immature things to do. I'm not saying he doesn't have reasons for them and it isn't understandable but if he were a few years older and had more life experience and presumably maturity in these areas then he would probably make different choices.

Morrigan has a couple moments too come to think of it. Not near as many. But she does storm off if you refuse her ritual. Same as Alistair though, that can pretty much be traced back to her upbringing. But it never gets mentioned, so I thought I'd bit the bullet and say out loud that Morrigan has at least ONE moment of immaturity.

I'm going to attempt romance the woman with Kenneth...cuz, you know, Zevran wasn't complicated enough.

I find her parroting her mother's beliefs and begging you to break up with her because she's scared of love not to be the most mature things in the world, either. They all have their moments.

Agreed, and it's what makes them so human and loved. Or hated actually. Tis a fine line. I can only think of one with Zevran, and that's when his feelings finally get to him. But I'm not sure that can be called immaturity, though he does call himself childish at that point. He does seem to be (not counting Sten or Wynne here) the most mature of all of them. Oghren...he would be the LEAST.

[Miri1984]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think Alistair has his moments of immaturity although that doesn't necessarily make him an immature person overall. Basically, whenever he is allowing his feelings to make his choices for him and ends up putting the rookie in charge, storming out of the Landsmeet and not helping with the Blight, not telling you that he's Maric's son until he absolutely has to...those all strike me as very immature things to do. I'm not saying he doesn't have reasons for them and it isn't understandable but if he were a few years older and had more life experience and presumably maturity in these areas then he would probably make different choices.

I think you're right, Sarah - and I think it's a symptom of being immature when it comes to relationships with others. Yes he's had experience with fighting and death, but he had no parents and was institutionalised right when he would have started developing an idea of social interactions, so he puts his foot in it regularly.

[sabreene]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think Alistair has his moments of immaturity although that doesn't necessarily make him an immature person overall. Basically, whenever he is allowing his feelings to make his choices for him and ends up putting the rookie in charge, storming out of the Landsmeet and not helping with the Blight, not telling you that he's Maric's son until he absolutely has to...those all strike me as very immature things to do. I'm not saying he doesn't have reasons for them and it isn't understandable but if he were a few years older and had more life experience and presumably maturity in these areas then he would probably make different choices.

Those moments strike me as times he gives into his wants, and puts his emotions and what feels like doing above what he should do if he was acting rationally. Unfortunately, acting rationally isn't always aquired with maturity, and a lot of people go their whole lives giving into what they want or feel like in the moment.

I do hope that Alistair would grow as a person and learn from his mistakes (giving in to your wants in the short term has long term concequences). And I agree with other posters, he doesn't strike me as immature so much as naive in the way of love.

I see his outburst at the Landsmeet as a culmination of everything he's experienced pre-game & during the treaties. He's now witnessed the depths people will go to reach their goals, and how everyone seems to act purely on what they want, and it explodes into a huge 'This is what I want, or I'm leaving!'.  I see it as finally standing up for his want (at the cost of rational action), after always letting what other people wanted for him rule his life. So while it may seem immature, it actually is an important growing process. Just incredibly bad timing that he had to do so at that moment, with the whole arch demon riding on their fight!

Modifié par sabreene, 24 juin 2010 - 12:35 .

[Miri1984]

Totally off topic, but I just thought I'd mention that my country now has its first ever female prime minister. Weird.

[sabreene]

Cause for celebration, no?

[Sarah1281]

I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

[sylvanaerie]

Xandurpein wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

There is also the fact that, as much as I liked this play through, I never had the same identification with my Beth Cousland as with her male counterpart who married Anora. So whatever I say may seem bland or uninteresting to you.

Maybe not! I think you did a really great job on making Michael and Anora's relationship believable and interesting, and I know that you're a very thoughtful player. Most Alistair/Cousland stories are really romance focused, it would be cool to hear the opinion of someone who would be thinking outside of that box. 

As I wrote above. The feeling I got from my play is that Alistair acts like a very young person. If he is in love with the PC, then really this is probably his first big love. So he and the PC go through this big adventure, fall head over heels in love and than have a fairy tale wedding as heroes. How can normal life possibly top that? 

How many times does your first big love end up being the one you are mature enough to handle well? How many times does falling in love and getting married young end up in a divorce and a more mature second relationship when you get a little older?

If I was to ever write a FCousland/Alistair fic it would probably be about the inherent problems in such a fairy tale romance. Two young persons fall in love, but then they wake up to discover that being King and Queen is loads of work and duty and very little romance. Can they overcome that and learn to appreciate reality together, or will it fall apart when it's no longer just an adventure and a rosy fantasy?

I'd read that.  As long as it ends on a positive note.  I hate sad endings

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

Please elaborate.  How many is "a good number" of instances?  What are these instances?  How is his behavior not acting rationally?

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 24 juin 2010 - 12:04 .

[Sarah1281]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

Please elaborate.  How many is "a good number" of instances?  What are these instances?  How is his behavior not acting rationally?

I was really responding to this more than talking about Alistair.

Those moments strike me as times he gives into his wants, and puts his emotions and what feels like doing above what he should do if he was acting rationally. Unfortunately, acting rationally isn't always aquired with maturity, a lot of people go their whole lives giving into what they want or feel like in the moment. 

My personal definition of maturity which may vary from other peoples' is that you have to be more rational than irrational.

[sabreene]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

I don't see Alistair as acting unrational in a "good" number of instances, so we would have to define which instances.

As far as rationality = maturity, it doesn't, they are two separate things. You can be rational and immature, I've seen many cases in the science field. : P

Being immature is acting childishly, and while juvenile behavior often includes irrationality, it doesn't follow that irrational behavior is immature.

As a human being, you can't always act in a logical and cool manner, no matter what your age and development.

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

Please elaborate.  How many is "a good number" of instances?  What are these instances?  How is his behavior not acting rationally?

I was really responding to this more than talking about Alistair.

Those moments strike me as times he gives into his wants, and puts his emotions and what feels like doing above what he should do if he was acting rationally. Unfortunately, acting rationally isn't always aquired with maturity, a lot of people go their whole lives giving into what they want or feel like in the moment. 

My personal definition of maturity which may vary from other peoples' is that you have to be more rational than irrational.

I'm sorry, that is talking about Alistair, correct?  So...

If you're going to say that he acts irrationally in a goodly number of instances, I would like to see it backed up rather than just tossed off as a general statement.  I'm all for debate and discussion, but that's hard to do people don't get specific.

[Sarah1281]

sabreene wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

I don't see Alistair as acting unrational in a "good" number of instances, so we would have to define which instances.

As far as rationality = maturity, it doesn't, they are two separate things. You can be rational and immature, I've seen many cases in the science field. : P

Being immature is acting childishly, and while juvenile behavior often includes irrationality, it doesn't follow that irrational behavior is immature.

As a human being, you can't always act in a logical and cool manner, no matter what your age and development.

I'm not saying Alistair is an immature person on the whole just that I don't find those three examples very mature of him. I know that you can't always act rationally which is why I qualified it with a 'in a good number of instances' but you can't really pin it down as 'acts rationally 75% of the time.' If a person is characterized by irrational behavior then I would not find them mature although I'd agree that being rational does not mean that they are mature.

[Sarah1281]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

Please elaborate.  How many is "a good number" of instances?  What are these instances?  How is his behavior not acting rationally?

I was really responding to this more than talking about Alistair.

Those moments strike me as times he gives into his wants, and puts his emotions and what feels like doing above what he should do if he was acting rationally. Unfortunately, acting rationally isn't always aquired with maturity, a lot of people go their whole lives giving into what they want or feel like in the moment. 

My personal definition of maturity which may vary from other peoples' is that you have to be more rational than irrational.

I'm sorry, that is talking about Alistair, correct?  So...

If you're going to say that he acts irrationally in a goodly number of instances, I would like to see it backed up rather than just tossed off as a general statement.  I'm all for debate and discussion, but that's hard to do people don't get specific.

But I'm not really looking for a debate on the subject. The first part of the quote was about Alistair but the part that was relevant to what I said was that it is possible to be mature without being rational which I disagree with.

[sabreene]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

Please elaborate.  How many is "a good number" of instances?  What are these instances?  How is his behavior not acting rationally?

I was really responding to this more than talking about Alistair.

Those moments strike me as times he gives into his wants, and puts his emotions and what feels like doing above what he should do if he was acting rationally. Unfortunately, acting rationally isn't always aquired with maturity, a lot of people go their whole lives giving into what they want or feel like in the moment. 

My personal definition of maturity which may vary from other peoples' is that you have to be more rational than irrational.

I do see Alistair as being more rational than irrational. There are very few moments where he lets himself give into what he wants over what he feels he should do. One of those is keeping his birth a secret, the other is the Landsmeet. There may be a few others, but those are the primary two events where I see him acting more on what he desires than what he knows rationally would be in good interest in the larger picture.

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...
But I'm not really looking for a debate on the subject. The first part of the quote was about Alistair but the part that was relevant to what I said was that it is possible to be mature without being rational which I disagree with.

If you're not looking to discuss, why comment?  *is confused*

[sabreene]

Sarah1281 wrote...

sabreene wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

I don't see Alistair as acting unrational in a "good" number of instances, so we would have to define which instances.

As far as rationality = maturity, it doesn't, they are two separate things. You can be rational and immature, I've seen many cases in the science field. : P

Being immature is acting childishly, and while juvenile behavior often includes irrationality, it doesn't follow that irrational behavior is immature.

As a human being, you can't always act in a logical and cool manner, no matter what your age and development.

I'm not saying Alistair is an immature person on the whole just that I don't find those three examples very mature of him. I know that you can't always act rationally which is why I qualified it with a 'in a good number of instances' but you can't really pin it down as 'acts rationally 75% of the time.' If a person is characterized by irrational behavior then I would not find them mature although I'd agree that being rational does not mean that they are mature.

I agree, if someone acts both irrationaly most of the time and always gives in to what they want over the needs/wants of others, then I would think them either selfish and/or immature in their emotional development. I just don't see Alistair as being those things.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

I, for instance, freak out at minor changes to my plans. Example: right around Christmas, Ken has put in the final paperwork to stay in Washington til the girls finished school. A week later, he tells me he got orders, he is going to be a Drill Sgt and we are moving to Ft Benning in about year (now it's 6 months, then it was a year). I freaked the hell out. Tears, ranting, raving, shrieking.

Yet a couple months earlier when the (effing) media released the deaths of 7 of our soldiers in one incident, before families were notified (usually families are notified, then the remaining families are informed so we know it wasn't our soldiers, THEN the media announces it), I had no problem keeping it together, and putting on my game face until we were let off the hook.

You can be mature, and STILL act irrationally half the time. I freak out over little crap, and take the rough stuff in stride. It's strange, but it's who I am.

[Lara Denton]

sabreene wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'm not sure how mature someone can be if they don't act rationally in at least a good number of instances.

Please elaborate.  How many is "a good number" of instances?  What are these instances?  How is his behavior not acting rationally?

I was really responding to this more than talking about Alistair.

Those moments strike me as times he gives into his wants, and puts his emotions and what feels like doing above what he should do if he was acting rationally. Unfortunately, acting rationally isn't always aquired with maturity, a lot of people go their whole lives giving into what they want or feel like in the moment. 

My personal definition of maturity which may vary from other peoples' is that you have to be more rational than irrational.

I do see Alistair as being more rational than irrational. There are very few moments where he lets himself give into what he wants over what he feels he should do. One of those is keeping his birth a secret, the other is the Landsmeet. There may be a few others, but those are the primary two events where I see him acting more on what he desires than what he knows rationally would be in good interest in the larger picture.

I would like to see a person with feelings, caring about a situation that will act "rationally" faced with what might be considered the ultimate betrayal. It's definitely easy to do so when you don't give a damn. 

[Sarah1281]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
But I'm not really looking for a debate on the subject. The first part of the quote was about Alistair but the part that was relevant to what I said was that it is possible to be mature without being rational which I disagree with.

If you're not looking to discuss, why comment?  *is confused*

Well there isn't much point in discussing whether you have to act rationally to be considered mature or not since it has nothing to do with Alistair now is there? I am not calling Alistair immature or irrational just that he has moments where he acts in an immature or irrational manner but that goes for everybody in the game and IRL so what is there to discuss? 

[LadyDamodred]

sabreene wrote...
I do see Alistair as being more rational than irrational. There are very few moments where he lets himself give into what he wants over what he feels he should do. One of those is keeping his birth a secret, the other is the Landsmeet. There may be a few others, but those are the primary two events where I see him acting more on what he desires than what he knows rationally would be in good interest in the larger picture.

Is keeping his birth a secret irrational, though?  It's not as if he doesn't have cause for wanting to keep it hidden.  Not the best judgement, maybe, but hardly irrational.

Same thing with the Landsmeet.  It's an extreme, visceral reaction, but is it really irrational?

[Serissia]