60083 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

@Serissia, very nice!!  Black is good.

I need to learn how to use the console so I can get your Warden's Light Armor.  It won't spawn for me. 

[LadyDamodred]

Xandurpein wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

This came up for me a few weeks ago when I was looking at armor and realized how light plate really is.  It was shocking.  Throw in the fantasy aspect of it, with dragonbone supposedly being incredibly light and with silverite being a mithral equivalent, and you're looking at ridiculously low weights for armor.  It actually makes the what they're able to do while wearing plate armor look much more realistic.  (It also made me feel somewhat better for totally geeking out a few years ago and figuring out exact armor weights for mithral and adamantine in D&D.)

Also, keep in mind, chain was lighter than well-made plate armor.  It was also cheaper, so it makes sense that it was more common than plate.  As for carrying a shield all the time?  Probably not, but for our heroes, I would imagine while they travel they bring what they need to fight effectively.  The game also leaves out that you can, in fact, fight with one sword and it's not a detriment or less effective.

That being said, I would also like to see Xan's expertise on the subject.

The big difference between mail armour and plate armour is not really the weight, but the weight distribution. Plate armour is rigid and can be strapped to your body. Mail armour is loose and thus the weight isn't as well distributed. A plate chest piece strapped to your body will have it's weight distrubuted at your entire chest, while mail armour will hang loose and put a lot of the weight on your shoulders. Good mail armour is strapped in different ways for better weight distribution, but not as well as plate armour.

Good quality mail armor isn't necessarily cheap either, I think. To be able to withstand piercing hits, like arrows or sword thrusts, each individual link has to be rivetted, so you can imagine how long that will take. Cheaper mail armour could be made withoiut rivetting. such mail armour woudl stop cuts, but be of little value against thrusts and arrows.

The reason mail armour was used much in the early middle ages has more to do with the fact that the early armour smiths didn't have the skill to make large sheets of iron and shape them properly. Once they learned that, virtually all armour used was plate armour. So it's more than anything a technological advance.

Plate armour replaced mail armour during the fourteenth century. At first the used plate chest and leg pieces, together with mail armour, but then when armour smiths developed the skill to make moveable plate joints that didn't hamper movement, they made whole plate armour suits.

A cheaper, more economic version of the plate armour is the splint armour (it is known by other names too). It consists of small pieces of iron plate sewn together with leather straps. It was easier to manufacture than either mail or plate armour. The problem with splint armour was that it could not be made to fit joints. Cheaply armed infantry often had a splint armour chest piece and a helmet and not much more.

So it really makes no sense, from a historical point of view to have both mail and plate armour together in the same game. And there really is no such thing as chainmail. The correct term is term mail armour or chain armour, which mean the same thing.

Nerd rant over.

Hey, you're more of an expert on this than I.  All I have have to go by is snippets I've gleaned over the years, and some of it is surely wrong.  It seems to me that splint/scale/banded are all more practical than chain, but that might be just me.

And am I insane for seeming to recall some sort of chain armor that was basically just sleeves, and connected across the shoulders?  My brain tells me that it would have been used with a type of splint armor in order to protect the joints.  *is wondering if she's lost her mind*

[Serissia]

Addai67 wrote...

@Serissia, very nice!!  Black is good.

I need to learn how to use the console so I can get your Warden's Light Armor.  It won't spawn for me. 

If you follow that link I just posted in the Project Info there should be two links.  One is to the Wiki tutorial on how to enable the console and the other is to a mod that makes console commands visible.  Honesty, I could try to explain it to you but Wiki probably would be a more coherent explanation. 

Modifié par Serissia, 24 juin 2010 - 05:41 .

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
Nerd rant over.

Keep it coming. 

I studied medieval history, but mostly literature.  I've never done a close study of warfare and I really should since it's a topic of interest to me.  I know you're Swedish, but do you know any good books (general introductions) in English on arms and armor?

Anyway, you could write reams of rants and I would soak it up.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 juin 2010 - 05:39 .

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

This came up for me a few weeks ago when I was looking at armor and realized how light plate really is.  It was shocking.  Throw in the fantasy aspect of it, with dragonbone supposedly being incredibly light and with silverite being a mithral equivalent, and you're looking at ridiculously low weights for armor.  It actually makes the what they're able to do while wearing plate armor look much more realistic.  (It also made me feel somewhat better for totally geeking out a few years ago and figuring out exact armor weights for mithral and adamantine in D&D.)

Also, keep in mind, chain was lighter than well-made plate armor.  It was also cheaper, so it makes sense that it was more common than plate.  As for carrying a shield all the time?  Probably not, but for our heroes, I would imagine while they travel they bring what they need to fight effectively.  The game also leaves out that you can, in fact, fight with one sword and it's not a detriment or less effective.

That being said, I would also like to see Xan's expertise on the subject.

The big difference between mail armour and plate armour is not really the weight, but the weight distribution. Plate armour is rigid and can be strapped to your body. Mail armour is loose and thus the weight isn't as well distributed. A plate chest piece strapped to your body will have it's weight distrubuted at your entire chest, while mail armour will hang loose and put a lot of the weight on your shoulders. Good mail armour is strapped in different ways for better weight distribution, but not as well as plate armour.

Good quality mail armor isn't necessarily cheap either, I think. To be able to withstand piercing hits, like arrows or sword thrusts, each individual link has to be rivetted, so you can imagine how long that will take. Cheaper mail armour could be made withoiut rivetting. such mail armour woudl stop cuts, but be of little value against thrusts and arrows.

The reason mail armour was used much in the early middle ages has more to do with the fact that the early armour smiths didn't have the skill to make large sheets of iron and shape them properly. Once they learned that, virtually all armour used was plate armour. So it's more than anything a technological advance.

Plate armour replaced mail armour during the fourteenth century. At first the used plate chest and leg pieces, together with mail armour, but then when armour smiths developed the skill to make moveable plate joints that didn't hamper movement, they made whole plate armour suits.

A cheaper, more economic version of the plate armour is the splint armour (it is known by other names too). It consists of small pieces of iron plate sewn together with leather straps. It was easier to manufacture than either mail or plate armour. The problem with splint armour was that it could not be made to fit joints. Cheaply armed infantry often had a splint armour chest piece and a helmet and not much more.

So it really makes no sense, from a historical point of view to have both mail and plate armour together in the same game. And there really is no such thing as chainmail. The correct term is term mail armour or chain armour, which mean the same thing.

Nerd rant over.

Still, this is Fereldan, not Britain, so the same things don't hold true in terms of timing. Since it's a fictional place, there's no reason that these armors can't exist at the same time in the same way that the Chantry appears to have encouraged basic literacy in a way that the Catholic church didn't.

[Addai]

Yeah, I'm not fussed about absolute historical accuracy, though I appreciate they took some effort in the combat animations etc.  From what I hear, anyway.  I read that they got actors from 300 in to model the animations?

[Sandtigress]

errant_knight wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

This came up for me a few weeks ago when I was looking at armor and realized how light plate really is.  It was shocking.  Throw in the fantasy aspect of it, with dragonbone supposedly being incredibly light and with silverite being a mithral equivalent, and you're looking at ridiculously low weights for armor.  It actually makes the what they're able to do while wearing plate armor look much more realistic.  (It also made me feel somewhat better for totally geeking out a few years ago and figuring out exact armor weights for mithral and adamantine in D&D.)

Also, keep in mind, chain was lighter than well-made plate armor.  It was also cheaper, so it makes sense that it was more common than plate.  As for carrying a shield all the time?  Probably not, but for our heroes, I would imagine while they travel they bring what they need to fight effectively.  The game also leaves out that you can, in fact, fight with one sword and it's not a detriment or less effective.

That being said, I would also like to see Xan's expertise on the subject.

The big difference between mail armour and plate armour is not really the weight, but the weight distribution. Plate armour is rigid and can be strapped to your body. Mail armour is loose and thus the weight isn't as well distributed. A plate chest piece strapped to your body will have it's weight distrubuted at your entire chest, while mail armour will hang loose and put a lot of the weight on your shoulders. Good mail armour is strapped in different ways for better weight distribution, but not as well as plate armour.

Good quality mail armor isn't necessarily cheap either, I think. To be able to withstand piercing hits, like arrows or sword thrusts, each individual link has to be rivetted, so you can imagine how long that will take. Cheaper mail armour could be made withoiut rivetting. such mail armour woudl stop cuts, but be of little value against thrusts and arrows.

The reason mail armour was used much in the early middle ages has more to do with the fact that the early armour smiths didn't have the skill to make large sheets of iron and shape them properly. Once they learned that, virtually all armour used was plate armour. So it's more than anything a technological advance.

Plate armour replaced mail armour during the fourteenth century. At first the used plate chest and leg pieces, together with mail armour, but then when armour smiths developed the skill to make moveable plate joints that didn't hamper movement, they made whole plate armour suits.

A cheaper, more economic version of the plate armour is the splint armour (it is known by other names too). It consists of small pieces of iron plate sewn together with leather straps. It was easier to manufacture than either mail or plate armour. The problem with splint armour was that it could not be made to fit joints. Cheaply armed infantry often had a splint armour chest piece and a helmet and not much more.

So it really makes no sense, from a historical point of view to have both mail and plate armour together in the same game. And there really is no such thing as chainmail. The correct term is term mail armour or chain armour, which mean the same thing.

Nerd rant over.

Still, this is Fereldan, not Britain, so the same things don't hold true in terms of timing. Since it's a fictional place, there's no reason that these armors can't exist at the same time in the same way that the Chantry appears to have encouraged basic literacy in a way that the Catholic church didn't.

I'm no history major, but since the Church was a big founder of schools and universities and what not, wouldn't it be more fair to say that books appear less rare in Ferelden than they were in pre-Guttenburg Britain?  I was always under the impression it was the cost of owning something to read that was a big driver of illiteracy more so than the lack of drive to teach people.  I mean, what's the point in learning to read if you were never going to get your hands on something to actually read?

I think there was a thread awhile back commenting on how common boks seemed to be in Ferelden.  In any case, I play my Dalish as not being literate, at least until Alistair volunteers to teach her to read.  Gotta do something to bond over those long nights on watch in the middle of the woods.  At least, you know, until they're comfortable enough with each other to do other things to bond....

[UpiH]

Ladies and gentlemen, here you go, if you please:



http://www.myarmoury.com/features.html

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

Still, this is Fereldan, not Britain, so the same things don't hold true in terms of timing. Since it's a fictional place, there's no reason that these armors can't exist at the same time in the same way that the Chantry appears to have encouraged basic literacy in a way that the Catholic church didn't.

It's not so much historical flavor as technological advance. Why keep inferior technology, when superior technology is available? Still, it's not something I lose sleep over.

[cmessaz]

@serissia- awesome work on the armor. I truly appreciate the time you invested in these projects.

[Xandurpein]

Speaking of armour and combat. Isn't this little mabari pup adorable?

[UpiH]

Xandur, do you happen to know this Björn Hellqvist? He seems to be pretty knowledgeable guy.

http://www.myarmoury...harlemagne.html

Edit, Ok, ok, wrong thread. Here's a little parting gift, then. Charles V

Modifié par UpiH, 24 juin 2010 - 06:24 .

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

Nerd rant over.

You are awsome in so many ways, Xandurpein.

What little weapons and armor info I've gleaned comes from watching The Deadliest Warrior.

[MelRedux]

OT but.....There's a dragon in Orzammar???

[Xandurpein]

UpiH wrote...

Xandur, do you happen to know this Björn Hellqvist? He seems to be pretty knowledgeable guy.

http://www.myarmoury...harlemagne.html

I am not familiar with this guy no. Please don't mistake me for a true scholar or an authority on medieval history. I simply have a very nerdy interest in medieval combat and warfare.

[Sandtigress]

Mel_Redux wrote...

OT but.....There's a dragon in Orzammar???

LOL Yes, Mel, just a baby one.  And it gives you a pretty decent sword if you kill it.  

[MelRedux]

Sandtigress wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

OT but.....There's a dragon in Orzammar???

LOL Yes, Mel, just a baby one.  And it gives you a pretty decent sword if you kill it.  

Where the hell have I been??

[Lady Jess]

All I have managed to do today was give everyone makeovers. Where oh where has my mojo gone, oh where oh where can it beeeee. I don't want to get anyone too far in, trying to wait for Charsen's weddings. Especially for Kasha/Alistair and Tryna/Eilis/Zevran. That pretty much leaves...my male cousland and my blood mage. And why can't I get into my blood mage? I gave her backstory and everything gah!!

[Lady Jess]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

OT but.....There's a dragon in Orzammar???

LOL Yes, Mel, just a baby one.  And it gives you a pretty decent sword if you kill it.  

Where the hell have I been??

Apparently the same place as me...dragon?

[MelRedux]

Lady Jess wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

OT but.....There's a dragon in Orzammar???

LOL Yes, Mel, just a baby one.  And it gives you a pretty decent sword if you kill it.  

Where the hell have I been??

Apparently the same place as me...dragon?

Yeah, who knew??  Look up "Caged in Stone" on the wiki

What other dragons am I missing? Flemeth, Sacred Ashes, AD....

[Xandurpein]

UpiH wrote...

Ladies and gentlemen, here you go, if you please:

http://www.myarmoury.com/features.html

That seems to be a very good source of information about arms and armour and how they where made. It's geared towards collectors and those interested in armour as objects. I am more interested in how they where used, the tactics and psychology of combat and battle.

[Lady Jess]

Mel_Redux wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

OT but.....There's a dragon in Orzammar???

LOL Yes, Mel, just a baby one.  And it gives you a pretty decent sword if you kill it.  

Where the hell have I been??

Apparently the same place as me...dragon?

Yeah, who knew??  Look up "Caged in Stone" on the wiki

What other dragons am I missing? Flemeth, Sacred Ashes, AD....

Oh darn, already picked a king on tryna. Oh well, a dwarf rogue looks silly with a sword to me anyhow. I have others.

[UpiH]

Xandurpein wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Ladies and gentlemen, here you go, if you please:

http://www.myarmoury.com/features.html

That seems to be a very good source of information about arms and armour and how they where made. It's geared towards collectors and those interested in armour as objects. I am more interested in how they where used, the tactics and psychology of combat and battle.

So do they:




http://www.myarmoury...attle_agin.html

[Lady Jess]

Eilis approves. Kasha wishes just once I'd get the download right for her...lol

[Sarah1281]

Is Eilis your CE?