60083 réponses à ce sujet

[cmessaz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Hypocrisy?  I don't think so.  Loghain responds to the challenge of his power by ordering executions.  1) That's not his right and 2) that also goes against the tradtion of the Landsmeet.  The point was to end the civil war.  Each side put forth a candidate and let the Landsmeet choose.  Was Loghain also going to execute anyone else who stood with us?  We certainly didn't hold it against those who stood with him when we won.  *shrugs*

You don't know if Loghain would have executed those who stood with us.

The point was, Loghain asked for a duel and did not call his men to fight (although apparently that could happen? I never had it happen to me). Eammon on the otherhand doesn't even try to call for a duel and calls his men to fight the Landsmeet, while also claiming he cares about it. Obviously that's hypocracy.

If the Landsmeet rejected him, it's not his right to declare war on it, epecially not when the whole point was to end the civil war.
What Loghain did is irrelevent. Eammon is claiming that one should not sacrifice what "Ferelden is" in order to end the civil war, but yet has no problem doing it when the Landsmeet sides against him.

My impression is that he does in fact call his guards, because you say to him "call of your guards, and we will settle this honorably."  If the landsmeet has voted against him that is.

Modifié par cmessaz, 18 avril 2010 - 03:37 .

[Addai]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Ugh, I'm, vacillating on Eamon now.  The toolset is making this tough.  Some of his lines clearly show he is fond of Alistair and regrets some of what happened.  On the other hand, he is still a politician.  I'm wondering if he had to see, and treat, Alistair in two very seperate ways.  One way was to firmly establish that Alistair was a commoner and that he is not fit to rule or even think about it.  That had to be re-enforced, as cruel as it seems.  And then you have the things like Eamon taking Alistair places with him and buying him toys.  One could say that doing those things was to simply assuge Eamon's guilt, but I think he genuinely likes Alistair.  Alistair himself is fond of Eamon, and I don't think it's a Stockholm Syndrome type of thing.  He lived a fairly normal life, and so he most likely wouldn't think so highly of Eamon is Eamon hadn't shown him at least some honest affection.

And then there's Eamon wanting to make Alistair king.  He wouldn't do it if he had another option because he knows how Alistair was raised.  But when you talk to him about it, he admits that Alistair really is a good man, and that he will be fine as king once he settles in.  I think he is being truthful.  *ponders more*

I certainly think Eamon likes Alistair and tried to do some good for him.  I put the other stuff down to the fact that he was clueless and to the political situation.  He himself was a fosterling, what did he know about being a father- let alone being a father to a boy who wasn't his own?  Even with Connor he was obviously oblivious to many things.  Isolde's maid knew more about what was going on than Eamon did.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Hypocrisy?  I don't think so.  Loghain responds to the challenge of his power by ordering executions.  1) That's not his right and 2) that also goes against the tradtion of the Landsmeet.  The point was to end the civil war.  Each side put forth a candidate and let the Landsmeet choose.  Was Loghain also going to execute anyone else who stood with us?  We certainly didn't hold it against those who stood with him when we won.  *shrugs*

You don't know if Loghain would have executed those who stood with us. And the Landmseet did not reject Lgohain's execution, so it is his right, as regent.

The point was, Loghain asked for a duel and did not call his men to fight (although apparently that could happen? I never had it happen to me). Eammon on the otherhand doesn't even try to call for a duel and calls his men to fight the Landsmeet, while also claiming he cares about it. Obviously that's hypocracy.

If the Landsmeet rejected him, it's not his right to declare war on it, epecially not when the whole point was to end the civil war.
What Loghain did is irrelevent. Eammon is claiming that one should not sacrifice what "Ferelden is" in order to end the civil war, but yet has no problem doing it when the Landsmeet sides against him.

Technically, he's calling his men against Loghain's.  The Landsmeet did not call for his execution, Loghain did.  I realize the game is limited in what it can show, but this is a big difference to me.  It was not Anora passing judgement, and then Eamon fighting.  *shrugs*  We're not likely to agree on this, KoP.  I think we both know that.  XD

[KnightofPhoenix]

cmessaz wrote...
My impression is that he does in fact call his guards, because you say to him "call of your guards, and we will settle this honorably."

He does not. He rants for a bit and rejects the Landsmeet's authority, then we tell him to step down, then he calls for a duel. At no point does he directly and explicitly order his men to fight the Landsmeet.

Eammopn does and that's after saying that he wouldn't sacrifice Ferelden's traditions. So who is the more hypocritical?

[Serissia]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The point was, Loghain asked for a duel and did not call his men to fight (although apparently that could happen? I never had it happen to me).

Once all of the Banns have sided aganist Loghain (you need Anora to have too) you'll get a few opitions.  Pick the one that is like an obvious troll answer.  I don't have any games saved at that point or I'd be able to tell you exactly how to do it.  Sorry

Modifié par Serissia, 18 avril 2010 - 03:41 .

[Addai]

Serissia wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
We don't know that she didn't.  Alistair describes it as being very old and unique in Ferelden, not something a servant girl is likely to own.

It's not mentioned as being on her person in The Calling.  Also she doesn't come across as being very religious.  Through out the book it's Maric that is saying the prayers (Chant of Light) as the various companions die. 

She doesn't have to be religious to have such an artifact, though, and just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean she didn't give Maric something to give him.  Alienage elves are nominally Andrastian, and most elves recognize Andraste as a fellow slave and someone who allied with Shartan.  My opinion...  this little tidbit was left out because if it wasn't, it would be a huge "tell" and there wouldn't be this build-up of speculation about the Fiona-Alistair connection.

[cmessaz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

cmessaz wrote...
My impression is that he does in fact call his guards, because you say to him "call of your guards, and we will settle this honorably."

He does not. He rants for a bit and rejects the Landsmeet's authority, then we tell him to step down, then he calls for a duel. At no point does he directly and explicitly order his men to fight the Landsmeet.

Eammopn does and that's after saying that he wouldn't sacrifice Ferelden's traditions. So who is the more hypocritical?

Oh I am definately not an Eamon lover. I think he had his personal motivations in mind more than anything. 
Am I the only one who notices Loghain's guards drawing their weapons at this point? I am going to take a look and see if the toolset says anything about it, but I think he does start a big fight if you choose the correct dialogue. Eamon just says "oh this doesnt bode well even though technically we have one vote more than Loghain but still let's fight!!!!"

Modifié par cmessaz, 18 avril 2010 - 03:42 .

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
And then there's Eamon wanting to make Alistair king.  He wouldn't do it if he had another option because he knows how Alistair was raised.  But when you talk to him about it, he admits that Alistair really is a good man, and that he will be fine as king once he settles in.  I think he is being truthful.  *ponders more*

He will be fine as long as Eamon is there with him.

Although to be fair to Eammon, he doesn't really flip out if Alistair marries Anora or the Warden, or if the Warden becomes chancellor. He also doesn't flip out if Alsitair is killed because Eamon forced the idea of being king into the boy's head.

Still, Eamon is definately manipulative and in someways very inconsiderate. Talking about Alsitair in 3rd person while he is standing right next to you is not only inpolite, but inconsiderate. He really doesn't make a good argument about Alistair being a good king when he doesn't even let him speak for himself.

And not to mention the complete hypocracy of violently challenging the landsmeet and calling his men to arms when they vote against him, while still having the audacity to claim that he cares about Ferelden's traditions and Loghain does not (incidently, Loghain doesn't call his men to arms when the landsmeet votes against him, rather he chooses to fight a duel, which is his right in Ferelden politics).

Well I despise Eamon and would be the last to defend him but in this instance Eamon had no choice. The fight breaks out because Loghain has called for the execution of the PC, Alistair and Eamon.  We aren't given a "duel" option in the game.  Loghain is.  Personally I enjoy the all out carnage that ensues (its a lot more fun) and seeing some of the banns who support you fighting with you. Far more dramatic than just the duel.  Sometimes when my PC wins the Landsmeet I just have them fight anyway because well I find it a lot more exciting and dramatic.  Not good political behavior but sometimes its just more fun to take the rebel option. Then I have Ali duel Loghain and move on in the game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Technically, he's calling his men against Loghain's.  The Landsmeet did not call for his execution, Loghain did.  I realize the game is limited in what it can show, but this is a big difference to me.  It was not Anora passing judgement, and then Eamon fighting.  *shrugs*  We're not likely to agree on this, KoP.  I think we both know that.  XD

Loghain became regent from the moment the Landsmeet voted for him, he had that authority, on behalf of the Queen. The Landsmeet said nothing to oppose Loghain, neither did Anora, so they approved. It was his right.
So Eamon did violently reject the Landsmeet's decision and basically did a Coup d'Etat.

I am not rellly making any moral judgement on Eamon. But I find it hard to not see Eamon's hypocracy and the coup d'Etat that he would make if the Landmseet voted against him. 

[LadyDamodred]

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I need someone who did not perform the ritual, alistair is king, and he will die. I need to know what lines appear after he stops you from killing the archdemon.

cmessaz: You have that save of mine.  The 'Alistair Dies' save is no DR, I didn't say anything about the final blow and he will die.

I used your char a lot last night. The problem was my game was crashing when Mr. Archi was about 3 quarters dead. It was quite frustrating.  Problem has been pretty bad for me since upgrading to the newest patch.

Hoorays!  Just wanted to make sure you knew. 

By the way, the new kiss on top of Fort Drakon does work  So if anyone wants to get into the toolset and check out which of his lines should and shouln't lead to a bye bye kiss, and post your thoughts in the group, I will see about adding more in the next update today.

From what I am seeing in the toolset, these lead to a kiss:
"Wait, this is crazy!"
"Then do it.  I won't forget you."

This does not appear to lead to a kiss:
"No.  I won't let you die either, Alistair."

[Addai]

cmessaz wrote...

Good mornin, folks! I am working on the bugs right now and adding the kisses. Will let everyone know when I update.

Denerim gates kisses???

If so,  I will kiss you!!!  Platonically and internet-ly!  It changed the whole tenor of the Zevran-romance late game to have the scene at the gates run the way it should.  I would love to see the same for Alistair.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Well I despise Eamon and would be the last to defend him but in this instance Eamon had no choice. The fight breaks out because Loghain has called for the execution of the PC, Alistair and Eamon.  We aren't given a "duel" option in the game.  Loghain is. 

Eammon does not even try to call for a duel. He is an expert in Ferelden politics, so I find it hard to believe that he forgot it was his right to start a duel and overturn the Landsmeet's decision.

And Loghain too thought he had no choice. And yet eamon criticises himfor betraying Ferelden's traditions, which he has no problem doing. How can anyone not see the hypocracy?

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Well I despise Eamon and would be the last to defend him but in this instance Eamon had no choice. The fight breaks out because Loghain has called for the execution of the PC, Alistair and Eamon.  We aren't given a "duel" option in the game.  Loghain is. 

Eammon does not even try to call for a duel. He is an expert in Ferelden politics, so I find it hard to believe that he forgot it was his right to start a duel and overturn the Landsmeet's decision.

And Loghain too thought he had no choice. And yet eamon criticises himfor betraying Ferelden's traditions, which he has no problem doing. How can anyone not see the hypocracy?

Well if PC is killed end of game...My point isn't from an RP perspective or political or anything its just from "what is the most fun for me the player to do." thats all.  

[cmessaz]

LadyDamodred wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I need someone who did not perform the ritual, alistair is king, and he will die. I need to know what lines appear after he stops you from killing the archdemon.

cmessaz: You have that save of mine.  The 'Alistair Dies' save is no DR, I didn't say anything about the final blow and he will die.

I used your char a lot last night. The problem was my game was crashing when Mr. Archi was about 3 quarters dead. It was quite frustrating.  Problem has been pretty bad for me since upgrading to the newest patch.

Hoorays!  Just wanted to make sure you knew. 

By the way, the new kiss on top of Fort Drakon does work  So if anyone wants to get into the toolset and check out which of his lines should and shouln't lead to a bye bye kiss, and post your thoughts in the group, I will see about adding more in the next update today.

From what I am seeing in the toolset, these lead to a kiss:
"Wait, this is crazy!"
"Then do it.  I won't forget you."

This does not appear to lead to a kiss:
"No.  I won't let you die either, Alistair."

I added a kiss to that last one already

Ejoslin and I both want to thank everyone who has been testing this mod, as by doing so she has fixed an error that was also in hers. You guys have been a great help and we really appreciate it.

[Serissia]

Addai67 wrote...
She doesn't have to be religious to have such an artifact, though, and just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean she didn't give Maric something to give him.  Alienage elves are nominally Andrastian, and most elves recognize Andraste as a fellow slave and someone who allied with Shartan.  My opinion...  this little tidbit was left out because if it wasn't, it would be a huge "tell" and there wouldn't be this build-up of speculation about the Fiona-Alistair connection.

Fiona doesn't live in the Alienage very long though, she's taken by slavers after he family dies.  I don't remember the exact age off hand but I recall it being rather young; 6 perhaps?  If I'm not mistaken she is only 14 when the Lord that owns her starts raping her.  Then she is taken to the Circle until she is recruited by the Wardens. 

It's pretty open to interpretation considering it never says she believes one way or the other but personally I find it hard to believe that someone that has suffered so much would be a devote Andrastian.  Perhaps that's just my own personal belives clouding my judgement though.

Also, I don't recall when it was said that the amulet was an old artifact.  I recall there being an opitions that the PC can say to Alistair that these things are sold on every street corner.

Modifié par Serissia, 18 avril 2010 - 03:51 .

[LadyDamodred]

*reviews toolset*



Loghain: "How dare you judge me!"

Cutscene: Loghain's soldiers burst into the chamber.



*looks slyly at KoP* Oh my. It appears that the PC must be the honorable one and prevent violence. Should you respond to the soldier's bursting in, Loghain fights you.

[cmessaz]

Addai67 wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Good mornin, folks! I am working on the bugs right now and adding the kisses. Will let everyone know when I update.

Denerim gates kisses???

If so,  I will kiss you!!!  Platonically and internet-ly!  It changed the whole tenor of the Zevran-romance late game to have the scene at the gates run the way it should.  I would love to see the same for Alistair.

I am working with ejoslin's b2b to see if I can fix this issue.

[cmessaz]

LadyDamodred wrote...

*reviews toolset*

Loghain: "How dare you judge me!"
Cutscene: Loghain's soldiers burst into the chamber.

*looks slyly at KoP* Oh my. It appears that the PC must be the honorable one and prevent violence. Should you respond to the soldier's bursting in, Loghain fights you.

LadyDamodred wins. FATALITY! Thank the maker for the toolset to show you what you should have been able to see in game.

Modifié par cmessaz, 18 avril 2010 - 03:52 .

[LadyDamodred]

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
From what I am seeing in the toolset, these lead to a kiss:
"Wait, this is crazy!"
"Then do it.  I won't forget you."

This does not appear to lead to a kiss:
"No.  I won't let you die either, Alistair."

I added a kiss to that last one already

Ejoslin and I both want to thank everyone who has been testing this mod, as by doing so she has fixed an error that was also in hers. You guys have been a great help and we really appreciate it.

Well, the last one simply goes to 'END DIALOGUE' and not 'CONTINUE' like the first two do.  So if I'm reading it correctly, the last one is not meant to go to a kiss, only the first two.

[Addai]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Personally I enjoy the all out carnage that ensues (its a lot more fun) and seeing some of the banns who support you fighting with you. Far more dramatic than just the duel.  Sometimes when my PC wins the Landsmeet I just have them fight anyway because well I find it a lot more exciting and dramatic.  Not good political behavior but sometimes its just more fun to take the rebel option. Then I have Ali duel Loghain and move on in the game.

I agree, the rumble is fun.  I love looking over and seeing Alfstanna and Bryland going to town on Loghain's guards.

[Charsen]

As per Soignee's request, I present to you:







The Alistair Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good



PS I am adding the gate kisses in for all companions currently.

[cmessaz]

LadyDamodred wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
From what I am seeing in the toolset, these lead to a kiss:
"Wait, this is crazy!"
"Then do it.  I won't forget you."

This does not appear to lead to a kiss:
"No.  I won't let you die either, Alistair."

I added a kiss to that last one already

Ejoslin and I both want to thank everyone who has been testing this mod, as by doing so she has fixed an error that was also in hers. You guys have been a great help and we really appreciate it.

Well, the last one simply goes to 'END DIALOGUE' and not 'CONTINUE' like the first two do.  So if I'm reading it correctly, the last one is not meant to go to a kiss, only the first two.

It does now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

*reviews toolset*

Loghain: "How dare you judge me!"
Cutscene: Loghain's soldiers burst into the chamber.

*looks slyly at KoP* Oh my. It appears that the PC must be the honorable one and prevent violence. Should you respond to the soldier's bursting in, Loghain fights you.

That doesn't even show in-game. The soldiers bursting in. And I do not remember an option to respond to the soldier's bursting in as I cna't even see them.

And it's irrelevent. Loghain never claimed he cared about the Landsmeet, dominated by nobles who did nothing while he was the one who fought the Orlesians. He wasn't a hypocrit.

Eamon on the otherhand says that one must not sacrifice what is "good" about Ferelden in order to save it. And yet he does just that. So he is a hypocrit.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 avril 2010 - 03:54 .

[cmessaz]

Charsen wrote...

As per Soignee's request, I present to you:



The Alistair Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good

PS I am adding the gate kisses in for all companions currently.

Maybe I will wait to see what you do before I mess with ejoslin's party_events, then.

Oh...do you have a link for that?

Modifié par cmessaz, 18 avril 2010 - 03:55 .

[Serissia]

Ha! I finally have a character head icon.