60083 réponses à ce sujet

[nranola]

@Sandtigress- I tend to tab out of my game to dick around the forums too! 8D Although I do set it to Pause. I'm in the middle of an Uldred battle as I'm typing this.

@Addai- Ah... I was hoping there was a game setting you could fiddle with to get rid of them. Will have to deal with the circles for now, I guess. Thanks for the suggestion! I'll look into the mod later.

Not to mention she gives you that "I'm sorry about your family" talk before anything else if you're playing a HN. I suppose she could have been truly sad about what happened to the Couslands--nobles are a close-knit group, I imagine--but the fact that she bargains with you right after that makes me think twice about her sincerity.

Modifié par nranola, 22 avril 2010 - 05:48 .

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...
I actually couldn't keep my Anora/Alistair/PC ending, so the fact that you did means you're way ahead of me. I got to thinking about future prospects and couldn't bear the idea of my PC having to deal with Anora for the rest of her life.

Oh?  I guess I"m unusual in this.  It was one of my favorite games (obviously, since I'm re-playing it), though that is also because I like pairing him with a Dalish warden.  The final battle is really epic.  I usually call out the Dalish army for the Archdemon anyway, because of their ranged attack, but it feels so poetic having a Dalish Grey Warden leading a Dalish army to save Ferelden alongside the country's new shemlen king.

Reading about Maric's attraction to Katriel and Fiona gives you a clue as to how Alistair might perceive an elven woman.  Maric talks about their exotic eyes, etc.  In The Stolen Throne the Dalish also tell Maric that only the ones who do trading with the shemlen get a chance to practice the King's tongue a lot, so I imagine her speaking with an accent (even though in-game the elves don't).  I like the idea of the Warden having a certain exotic cache to him.

Walking around the Dalish camp with him is romantic, too.  I don't imagine she's too open with the PDA there, because of the Dalish sensitivity to such things, but forest trysts?  Ohhh yeahhh.

[SurelyForth]

The way I see the mistress ending is this: Since Alistair defaults to king if you import him from a pre-Landsmeet save to Awakening and he's king in the Orlesian Warden game, it seems like BW wants that character around in that capacity.

Since he's not only romancable, but also a character that can be married but only by one out of six origins, it behooves BW to make the relationship all or nothing across the board, for the sake of fairness. I cannot see them saying, if the relationship is on in the future, that only those PC's who married Alistair remain in a relationship with him. I think they would put the kibosh on all King Alistair relationships or treat them all the same.

From the game itself, Alistair obviously views the relationship as something he very much wants to last. That's why he tries to end it in the first place- he's saying that he doesn't see how he can commit to the PC and, since he can't commit, he doesn't want to hurt her by continuing further (otherwise he'd keep probably keep it going until the Blight is over and end it then). Once she points out that he can commit in a way, and that she's willing to be with him in that capacity, it's settled. He's with her as long as she'll have him.

Re: Alistair and elves. I can't do it. Since I can never get a DE past the bridge at Ostagar, that ain't happening, and I cannot fathom a CEF falling for him, mostly because of the "Especially because of that" line when the PC can ask if he wants to be with her even though she's an elf. With all the objectification of elves by humans (and the ensuing culture of prostitution and rape) it just turns my stomach, even though I know it's supposed to be a shout-out to Maric's very specific taste in women.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 22 avril 2010 - 05:49 .

[Addai]

Mel_Redux wrote...

But if he comes to join you, and never elaves your side...what happens to him being King?  Who's ruling?  He abandons everything you worked for to put him on the throne?

Apparently so, but we don't know the circumstances of that.  There could be an heir and the succession is secure, or maybe he has to abdicate for some reason.

[Addai]

nranola wrote...

Not to mention she gives you that "I'm sorry about your family" talk before anything else. I suppose she could have been truly sad about what happened to the Couslands--nobles are a close-knit group, I imagine--but the fact that she bargains with you right after that makes me think twice about her sincerity.

Ah, well she could care less about the elves, so no sympathy from her on the trials of your Ferelden existence.  In fact, that is one respect in which she makes a bad calculation.  Her boasting about how she's been running things all along rather than Cailan makes my elven PCs lift an eyebrow and think "that's supposed to be a point in your favor?".  She'd do better to say "look at what a mess Cailan made of everything, now it's my turn, give me a chance."

[MelRedux]

SurelyForth wrote...

Since he's not only romancable, but also a character that can be married but only by one out of six origins, it behooves BW to make the relationship all or nothing across the board, for the sake of fairness. I cannot see them saying, if the relationship is on in the future, that only those PC's who married Alistair remain in a relationship with him. I think they would put the kibosh on all King Alistair relationships or treat them all the same.

I understand what you're saying about BW's choices, and I understand That BW has a reasoning behind it (for design/gameplay).  Doesn't mean I like it or agree with it! 

[mellifera]

SurelyForth wrote...

The way I see the mistress ending is this: Since Alistair defaults to king if you import him from a pre-Landsmeet save to Awakening and he's king in the Orlesian Warden game, it seems like BW wants that character around in that capacity.

Since he's not only romancable, but also a character that can be married but only by one out of six origins, it behooves BW to make the relationship all or nothing across the board, for the sake of fairness. I cannot see them saying, if the relationship is on in the future, that only those PC's who married Alistair remain in a relationship with him. I think they would put the kibosh on all King Alistair relationships or treat them all the same.

From the game itself, Alistair obviously views the relationship as something he very much wants to last. That's why he tries to end it in the first place- he's saying that he doesn't see how he can commit to the PC and, since he can't commit, he doesn't want to hurt her by continuing further (otherwise he'd keep probably keep it going until the Blight is over and end it then). Once she points out that he can commit in a way, and that she's willing to be with him in that capacity, it's settled. He's with her as long as she'll have him.

Of course, a way to solve this (if in fact the next game is to be a direct sequel) is to actually have your previous choices and actions carry over in a true connected fashion rather than just handwave like 98% of what happened in the previous game and have only a tenuous link between them. But considering what a tangled clusterf**k the vast amount of choices you are given becomes I can easily see them making everything the same across the board or not including it at all. Which I think is incredibly dumb if you're gonna be so ambitious in the first place and just retcon it all when you're expected to continue with it.

Modifié par yukidama, 22 avril 2010 - 05:56 .

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

The way I see the mistress ending is this: Since Alistair defaults to king if you import him from a pre-Landsmeet save to Awakening and he's king in the Orlesian Warden game, it seems like BW wants that character around in that capacity.

I had heard that Anora was queen in the Orlesian Warden game??  I was worried about that, in fact!

Re: Alistair and elves. I can't do it. Since I can never get a DE past the bridge at Ostagar, that ain't happening, and I cannot fathom a CEF falling for him, mostly because of the "Especially because of that" line when the PC can ask if he wants to be with her even though she's an elf. With all the objectification of elves by humans (and the ensuing culture of prostitution and rape) it just turns my stomach, even though I know it's supposed to be a shout-out to Maric's very specific taste in women.

I admit I don't understand that line.  I do figure that it refers to him having a thing for elves (and it was generalized to include dwarves), but there's no preamble or explanation for it.  Anything in the VO directions?

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

I had heard that Anora was queen in the Orlesian Warden game??  I was worried about that, in fact!

It was Alistair when my boyfriend played his Orlesian Warden.

I admit I don't understand that line.  I do figure that it refers to him having a thing for elves (and it was generalized to include dwarves), but there's no preamble or explanation for it.  Anything in the VO directions?

I think it says "amused" and that is all. I could be thinking of another elf-specific line.

It's just...there are so many other things that he could say that wouldn't feel so icky, especially to a CE who was carried off on her wedding day by men who wanted to rape her because she was an elf.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 22 avril 2010 - 06:06 .

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...
With all the objectification of elves by humans (and the ensuing culture of prostitution and rape) it just turns my stomach, even though I know it's supposed to be a shout-out to Maric's very specific taste in women.

Oh, one more note about this- I agree that there is weirdness about the fact that human men are said to be attracted to elven women (it doesn't seem to be the same with human women and elven men, I guess?), given what it leads to.  But just like in The Calling with Fiona's experience of Maric, it is actually healing when my elven PCs discover that a shem can be such a good man, so kind to them, and not only not take advantage, you practically have to lead him by the hand to be with you.  I'll look for the quote later, but Fiona says something like, "The last thing I expected was that he would just be a good man."

It is also more than obvious that, romanced or not, Alistair has tremendous respect for his fellow Warden.  His deferring to your leadership disarms at lot of their fears.  He's obviously not your average shem.  But I agree about the CEF- my 1st character was kind of a throw-away.  My more recent CEF playthrough, she couldn't look at Alistair in that way.  Just too traumatized.  Maybe, with some distance like Fiona had, she might have come around.  But she was very happy with Zevran so it all worked out.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 avril 2010 - 06:11 .

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...
Oh, one more note about this- I agree that there is weirdness about the fact that human men are said to be attracted to elven women (it doesn't seem to be the same with human women and elven men, I guess?), given what it leads to.  But just like in The Calling with Fiona's experience of Maric, it is actually healing when my elven PCs discover that a shem can be such a good man, so kind to them, and not only not take advantage, you practically have to lead him by the hand to be with you.  I'll look for the quote later, but Fiona says something like, "The last thing I expected was that he would just be a good man."

I could see that, but the line undoes any potential for that in my mind (and my mind is a weird place when it comes to this sort of issue). It puts too much focus on her being an elf as the reason he wants to be with her, rather than it being about his feelings for her and her awesomeness. Even if it's just meant to sort of handwave any issue of race between them, there has to be something else he can say that isn't so loaded.

I did like Maric and Fiona together for the reason you stated, it felt genuine and it was good for both of them.

ETA: Why am I thinking about this so much this afternoon? Anyway, a parallel I can see is this: how would Alistair react to the PC if the conversation went like...

Alistair: You want to be with me even though I'm a prince?
PC: Especially because of that.

I don't think he'd like that very much, because it pokes at a very real issue for him (hating being Maric's bastard and hating how it changes the perception others have of him). It's the same as the way I see the elves in DA- even if they're proud of being elven, there is the fact that they are being treated in demonstrably horrible ways because they're objectified and sexualized. That line pokes at this and I can't roleplay a good enough reason to shrug it off.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 22 avril 2010 - 06:27 .

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I had heard that Anora was queen in the Orlesian Warden game??  I was worried about that, in fact!

It was Alistair when my boyfriend played his Orlesian Warden.

I'll have to ask the spousal unit.  He's playing an Orlesian Warden.

It's just...there are so many other things that he could say that wouldn't feel so icky, especially to a CE who was carried off on her wedding day by men who wanted to rape her because she was an elf.

I think, like with the awkward wording on the hardening line, you have to look at the overall picture of what you know about Alistair rather than the truncated writing.  It's not like he's any less enraptured by a human Warden.  It seems that, like Maric and Cailan and Leliana and probably most humans, he's clueless about what it really feels like to grow up as an elf in that culture and doesn't know how such a statement would come across.  He's pretty dismissive if you ask him "does it matter that I'm an elf?" in the "what about our future" talk, even if he's going to be king.  It's also obvious he's never been in an alienage. I figure his experience there before the LM is part of what opens his eyes and makes him a better ruler towards the elves.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 avril 2010 - 06:25 .

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

Oh?  I guess I"m unusual in this.  It was one of my favorite games (obviously, since I'm re-playing it), though that is also because I like pairing him with a Dalish warden.  The final battle is really epic.  I usually call out the Dalish army for the Archdemon anyway, because of their ranged attack, but it feels so poetic having a Dalish Grey Warden leading a Dalish army to save Ferelden alongside the country's new shemlen king.

Reading about Maric's attraction to Katriel and Fiona gives you a clue as to how Alistair might perceive an elven woman.  Maric talks about their exotic eyes, etc.  In The Stolen Throne the Dalish also tell Maric that only the ones who do trading with the shemlen get a chance to practice the King's tongue a lot, so I imagine her speaking with an accent (even though in-game the elves don't).  I like the idea of the Warden having a certain exotic cache to him.

I see it in almost the same way!  And yeah, I picture her as having a soft accent as well, and that because of her he works really hard to have good relations with the Dalish as a whole, and even with the dwarves since he can see the import of having *ahem* foreign relations.

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I had heard that Anora was queen in the Orlesian Warden game??  I was worried about that, in fact!

It was Alistair when my boyfriend played his Orlesian Warden.

I'll have to ask the spousal unit.  He's playing an Orlesian Warden.


It was Alistair for me as an Orlesian - he is the default ruler.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 22 avril 2010 - 06:23 .

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

I see it in almost the same way!  And yeah, I picture her as having a soft accent as well, and that because of her he works really hard to have good relations with the Dalish as a whole, and even with the dwarves since he can see the import of having *ahem* foreign relations.

LOL  Hurrah for diplomacy. 

[tmp7704]

SurelyForth wrote...

ETA: Why am I thinking about this so much this afternoon? Anyway, a parallel I can see is this: how would Alistair react to the PC if the conversation went like...

Alistair: You want to be with me even though I'm a prince?
PC: Especially because of that.

I don't think he'd like that very much, because it pokes at a very real issue for him (hating being Maric's bastard and hating how it changes the perception others have of him).

I think a considerable difference here could be, being a prince is generally positive thing, and liking Alistair more because of that can make the PC look like a gold digger. On the other hand being an elf is generally not positive thing and someone wanting a relationship with one would be exposing themselves to lot of abuse. While that comment of his of wanting the PC more because of who she is can be bit of eyebrow raiser, i'm inclined to write it off as more of a "i like big butts and cannot lie" thing.

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...
ETA: Why am I thinking about this so much this afternoon? Anyway, a parallel I can see is this: how would Alistair react to the PC if the conversation went like...

Alistair: You want to be with me even though I'm a prince?
PC: Especially because of that.

That's a good example, and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play their game, natch.  Here I would say that Alistair doesn't know that it's a sore spot for your PC.  He should know, but he probably doesn't.  Something you could talk to him about later.  Maric gets to see Fiona's nightmare up close and personal, and he realizes that that is why she was so hostile to him early on.  He has to tell her "I am not that man."  Meanwhile, Alistair has probably never had an elven friend in his life.

Of course, it's also not as acute an issue for a DEF as a CEF.  I imagined that my CEF actually had Vaughn flashbacks when she first met Alistair, because there was enough resemblance and because she was expecting the king's camp to be full of Vaughns.

[Sandtigress]

That whole conversation is a big reason why I go with asking him to the tent first with my DEF. I adore the way he says "Of course not" when she asks if it matters to him that she's an elf.



My girl had a lot of difficulty with him as a human at first because she's so dedicated to the Dalish, but when she grew to see him as clan, it wasn't too hard to let the romance go from there.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...
That's a good example, and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play their game, natch.  Here I would say that Alistair doesn't know that it's a sore spot for your PC.  He should know, but he probably doesn't.  Something you could talk to him about later.  Maric gets to see Fiona's nightmare up close and personal, and he realizes that that is why she was so hostile to him early on.  He has to tell her "I am not that man."  Meanwhile, Alistair has probably never had an elven friend in his life.

Of course, it's also not as acute an issue for a DEF as a CEF.  I imagined that my CEF actually had Vaughn flashbacks when she first met Alistair, because there was enough resemblance and because she was expecting the king's camp to be full of Vaughns.

This is definitely true.

Oh, well. One of these days I'll have to force a DEF playthrough and see if I can make it work. For now, my CEF's will end up with Zev or Leliana (depending on how distressingly racist her little comments come across).

[Lady Jess]

Charsen wrote...

i know you folks usually play HF for the marriage, but i just wanted to let you know that i reworked the EF kiss + alistair in my first default kisses mod... i will eventually hit the HF though so don't worry..

you can download it here... please lemme know if there are any problems!

btw i should mention this is the alpha release so... it will be revised later, sorry if it seems rough.

Now if only Zev had a (kiss him) I thought he did, but that might have been a mod...and I went all cleanup crazy

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

I think a considerable difference here could be, being a prince is generally positive thing, and liking Alistair more because of that can make the PC look like a gold digger. On the other hand being an elf is generally not positive thing and someone wanting a relationship with one would be exposing themselves to lot of abuse. While that comment of his of wanting the PC more because of who she is can be bit of eyebrow raiser, i'm inclined to write it off as more of a "i like big butts and cannot lie" thing.

LOL  That would be what he'd tell a dwarf PC.    But I agree, I think in his mind Alistair is trying to reassure you, and it's such a non-issue for him that he ends up sounding callous.  He'll come around, though.

The thing is, I'm not denying at all that it IS an uncomfortable thing.  I mean, look at Maric and Katriel.  Zevran tells you that elves are chosen as assassins because humans find them beautiful, and there goes Maric, jumping into bed with her like a big dope.  Yet even though he plays into the stereotype, he does actually care for her, and it's really Katriel who is using him rather than the other way around.  I do think it is perfectly IC for there to be trust issues with Alistair and an elven PC, and worry over motive is understandable- his worry that you might only want to be with him because of his blood, and your PC's worry that he's just thinking with his lamppost.  If your PC has gotten to know him, though, it ought to be clear that there is more to him than that.  Likewise, you can even specifically reassure him in-game about your own motives (as my DEF did).

I guess it all goes into making this an interesting story for me.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 avril 2010 - 06:56 .

[Addai]

Lady Jess wrote...

Now if only Zev had a (kiss him) I thought he did, but that might have been a mod...and I went all cleanup crazy

It's added by Dialogue Tweaks, and is so nice.  Just like with Ali, you never have to tell Zevran "never mind" if you accidentally click on him while out and about. 

[Lady Jess]

Addai67 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Now if only Zev had a (kiss him) I thought he did, but that might have been a mod...and I went all cleanup crazy

It's added by Dialogue Tweaks, and is so nice.  Just like with Ali, you never have to tell Zevran "never mind" if you accidentally click on him while out and about. 

Ahh...well darn, that one isn't compatible with the allinone tent scene thingy....And I really like my tent scenes

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

Oh, well. One of these days I'll have to force a DEF playthrough and see if I can make it work. For now, my CEF's will end up with Zev or Leliana (depending on how distressingly racist her little comments come across).

Heh, DEF had that chat with Leliana last night.  Leli starts by sticking her foot in her mouth and it's all downhill from there.  It's a good thing she's so cute.  Morrigan could never get away with saying the things she does- hence why there's no (to my knowledge) "slap Leliana" mod.

[Addai]

Lady Jess wrote...

Ahh...well darn, that one isn't compatible with the allinone tent scene thingy....And I really like my tent scenes

It isn't??  Darn it, I'm breaking my Zevran mushy stuff with my Alistair mushy stuff.

Edit for top of page- with all this talk about Ali and the elven PC, I'll put this up again.  Anora, eat your heart out.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 avril 2010 - 07:34 .