60083 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Yes, I think for Alistair, it's more about justice than vengeance all by itself.  I believe that's how he refers to it throughout the game, as well.  There is a difference.  Lya wants vengeance, screw justice.  she wants to slide her blade into his flesh and make him scream.  Alistair just wants Loghain dead.

Might have been true, if Alistair doesn't decide to abandon everyone, including the nation that he all of a sudden wanted to rule. How is that justice?

A king trying to impose justice? He wasn't even king. And what kind of would be king would just abandon his nation because of one man?

Nope sorry, it's clearly petty vengeance he was looking for in my eyes..

Oh, KoP, we're about to get into that discussion again.  He wants justice in that he doesn't really want anything other than Lghain to die for his crimes.  He is fine with it being a quick, clean death.  He is fine with someone else killing him.  If he were looking for vengeance, neither of those things would satisfy him.  Look at all the Couslands here who want a cutscene/DLC so they can torture Howe?  That is vengeance.  Your criticims of Alistair if you do not bring Loghain to justice are a seperate issue.

[SurelyForth]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Yes, I think for Alistair, it's more about justice than vengeance all by itself.  I believe that's how he refers to it throughout the game, as well.  There is a difference.  Lya wants vengeance, screw justice.  she wants to slide her blade into his flesh and make him scream.  Alistair just wants Loghain dead.

I do this gets missed because, by the time the Landsmeet rolls around, Alistair might not have said much about Loghain for a while. And then, when you get in the thick of it, he gets so passionate that it comes off like he wants vengeance for vengeance (and it can feel completely out of the blue). Does he say anything about justice during the whole kerfluffle with Riordan? I know he does if you spare Loghain and marry him to Anora. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Might have been true, if Alistair doesn't decide to abandon everyone, including the nation that he all of a sudden wanted to rule. How is that justice?

A king trying to impose justice? He wasn't even king. And what kind of would be king would just abandon his nation because of one man?

Nope sorry, it's clearly petty vengeance he was looking for in my eyes.. 

Well, he feels like there's been a miscarriage of justice if Loghain lives, and it's the PC who let it happen. He knows what he does is wrong and, although it's too little too late, his life is ruined for it (if you let him get out the palace, which I'm certain you don't).

I have to, ultimately, side with Alistair on this one: at least he only takes himself down when he flames out. And, if he becomes king, you still come out even and the country is happy as can be with him and Anora ruling together. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 avril 2010 - 01:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Oh, KoP, we're about to get into that discussion again.  He wants justice in that he doesn't really want anything other than Lghain to die for his crimes.  He is fine with it being a quick, clean death.  He is fine with someone else killing him.  If he were looking for vengeance, neither of those things would satisfy him.  Look at all the Couslands here who want a cutscene/DLC so they can torture Howe?  That is vengeance.  Your criticims of Alistair if you do not bring Loghain to justice are a seperate issue.

No, it is not a seperate issue. It is in fact, the heart of the issue. Alistair is showing how far he will go if Loghain doesn't die. And what he did was just abandon everyone he pretended to love, including the nation that he all of a sudden wanted to be king of.

Vengeance has nothing to do with torture or anything else. That's sadistic vengeance and I am not claiming Alistair is a sadist (althought killing a father in front of his daughter in cold blood reeks of sadism for me, but I digress).
Vengeance has to do with you not being able to bear the fact that the person you hate is alive. And that's what Alistair showed.

Because there is no justice in abandoning your duty. So whatever moral arrogance he would pretend to have is flushed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SurelyForth wrote...
Well, he feels like there's been a miscarriage of justice if Loghain lives, and it's the PC who let it happen. He knows what he does is wrong and, although it's too little too late, his life is ruined for it (if you let him get out the palace, which I'm certain you don't).

I have to, ultimately, side with Alistair on this one: at least he only takes himself down when he flames out. And, if he becomes king, you still come out even and the country is happy as can be with him and Anora ruling together. 

And there is mo miscarrriage of justice is he abandons his nation and the nation that his father and the man he hates fought so hard to save?
Of course I don't let himn live and I think that's merciful, considering what a sad pathetic life he leads if he is kept alive.

A person with exploding temper and little rationality is not my idea of a good king. Leniency and turning enemies into allies is the mark of a great king. Incidently, that's my PC.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 avril 2010 - 01:43 .

[Thalorin1919]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Yes, I think for Alistair, it's more about justice than vengeance all by itself.  I believe that's how he refers to it throughout the game, as well.  There is a difference.  Lya wants vengeance, screw justice.  she wants to slide her blade into his flesh and make him scream.  Alistair just wants Loghain dead.

Might have been true, if Alistair doesn't decide to abandon everyone, including the nation that he all of a sudden wanted to rule. How is that justice?

A king trying to impose justice? He wasn't even king. And what kind of would be king would just abandon his nation because of one man?

Nope sorry, it's clearly petty vengeance he was looking for in my eyes..

@ cmessaz
Thank you. You just keep posting pics like that, and I will definately come here  

It IS justice. How could it be vengeance? Because he leaves?

His decisions is questionable. But put yourself in a moment like that. You know this man left innocents, Duncan, The Grey Wardens, and your half-brother to die at Ostagar. He has committed crimes against Ferelden. Hanging nobles, civil war, selling the elves. A man like that should be brought to justice. If you were to go into the Landsmeet thinking that this man would die, but then have your friend turn against you saying he should live, and the nobles or nobody else objects to this? Including Riordan, who is also a Grey Warden?

In a situatoin like that, I would honestly feel like the world is against me, even though it is not. When you lose the support of your friends, your supporters, and everyone else,  when you KNOW that his man should be executed, why the hell would you want to lead a nation at that moment? I've had that feeling a few times in my life, where I felt all my loved ones and friends abandoned me, and it sucked. For him, I'm sure it was heart-wrenching, that last thing he would want to do is be the leader of all the people who just basically turned there back against him.

You should analyze things for more then they are. David Gaider even said when Alistair walks out and becomes a drunk, Alistair does come to regret his decison of abandoning everything. It was a heat of the moment thing, I honestly think I would've done the same exact thing.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Oh, KoP, we're about to get into that discussion again.  He wants justice in that he doesn't really want anything other than Lghain to die for his crimes.  He is fine with it being a quick, clean death.  He is fine with someone else killing him.  If he were looking for vengeance, neither of those things would satisfy him.  Look at all the Couslands here who want a cutscene/DLC so they can torture Howe?  That is vengeance.  Your criticims of Alistair if you do not bring Loghain to justice are a seperate issue.

No, it is not a seperate issue. It is in fact, the heart of the issue. Alistair is showing how far he will go if Loghain doesn't die. And what he did was just abandon everyone he pretended to love, including the nation that he all of a sudden wanted to be king of.

Vengeance has nothing to do with torture or anything else. That's sadistic vengeance and I am not claiming Alistair is a sadist (althought killing a father in front of his daughter in cold blood reeks of sadism for me, but I digress).
Vengeance has to do with you not being able to bear the fact that the person you hate is alive. And that's what Alistair showed.

Because there is no justice in abandoning your duty. So whatever moral arrogance he would pretend to have is flushed.

He did not pretend to love everyone and Ferelden.  His love for them is very real.  That is apparent in conversations with him through the game.  The difference is not just that Loghain is alive, but that he's being made a Grey Warden.  Do you think Alistair would have freaked out nearly as badly if we had just exiled him?  He wouldn't have been happy, b/c that's still not justice, but I don't think he would have left.  For him, letting Loghain live AND making him a Grey Warden is the grossest miscarriage of justice he can think of.  And if the only person he thought he could count on cannot back him up in this, he really doesn't feel like he has a place there.

I've never said Alistair leaving is right.  It isn't.  But it is completely understandable.  I know we've discussed how if positions were reversed, Lya would have done the same damn thing, so we don't need to rehash it.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
Well, he feels like there's been a miscarriage of justice if Loghain lives, and it's the PC who let it happen. He knows what he does is wrong and, although it's too little too late, his life is ruined for it (if you let him get out the palace, which I'm certain you don't).

I have to, ultimately, side with Alistair on this one: at least he only takes himself down when he flames out. And, if he becomes king, you still come out even and the country is happy as can be with him and Anora ruling together. 

And there is mo miscarrriage of justice is he abandons his nation and the nation that his father and the man he hates fought so hard to save?
Of course I don't let himn live and I think that's merciful, considering what a sad pathetic life he leads if he is kept alive.

A person with exploding temper and little rationality is not my idea of a good king. Leniency and turning enemies into allies is the mark of a great king. Incidently, that's my PC.

To be fair, that is really the only instance where he truly has an exploding temper and little rationalty.  Unless of course you antagonize him throughtout the entire game.  And you did not just say leniency makes a great king.  You take that back right now, or I'ma start calling you a liar.  Turning enemies into allies makes you a great politician, fine.  But do not even play the leniency card.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thalorin1919 wrote...
 It was a heat of the moment thing, I honestly think I would've done the same exact thing.

And if I was your commander, I would think of you and deal with you just the same, sorry.
And I would never consider making you king of my nation.

Justice is never delivered in a "heat of the moment". Justice is not about hatred. If you let hatred consume you, then you are clearly asking for revenge and nothing else. 

I perfectly understand why Alsitair did htis. Doesn't change the fact it's vengeance he wants. I incidently don't mind vengeance. But when it makes you abandon your nation and your comrade at arms because you feel like they "turned against you", then a person like that will never earn my respect.  

[mellifera]

Wasn't Cailan trying to turn (former) enemies into allies as well?

[SurelyForth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And there is mo miscarrriage of justice is he abandons his nation and the nation that his father and the man he hates fought so hard to save?
Of course I don't let himn live and I think that's merciful, considering what a sad pathetic life he leads if he is kept alive.

A person with exploding temper and little rationality is not my idea of a good king. Leniency and turning enemies into allies is the mark of a great king. Incidently, that's my PC.

He's just one man, and one who has just had it proven to him that he's not that important (especially if the PC was someone he cared about). He does not feel that he is going to make or break this situation, as he does not know about the whole Archdemon thing. As far as he's concerned, if you recruit Loghain and he leaves, you've lost nothing but a companion.

In the end, Loghain costs you several Grey Wardens (Fereldan and Orlesian), hundreds of men, and pretty much the entire southern part of Ferelden. Alistair costs you a single person. I absolutely cannot do the math in my head to see how the former is better than the latter. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 avril 2010 - 01:52 .

[LadyDamodred]

It's also a mark of a great king not to turn on people who have stood by you through thick and thin against the very enemy you want to turn into an ally.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...


He did not pretend to love everyone and Ferelden.  His love for them is very real. 

I disagree. If I love a nation, I would never abandon it because people happen to dsagree with my opinion. 

LadyDamodred wrote...
For him, letting Loghain live AND making him a Grey Warden is the grossest miscarriage of justice he can think of.  And if the only person he thought he could count on cannot back him up in this, he really doesn't feel like he has a place there.

Of course, because he is a delluded fool. Where is the justice in killing Jory?
He knows what the Wardens are but all of a sudden, he feels like they are justice superheroes.

Incidently, if he didn't mind Duncan killing Jory, then he mustn't mind me killing him for the same reason.

LadyDamodred wrote...
I've never said Alistair leaving is right.  It isn't.  But it is completely understandable.  I know we've discussed how if positions were reversed, Lya would have done the same damn thing, so we don't need to rehash it.

Yes, it's understandable. But it's not about justice. It's revenge and whatever moral dressing you give it won't change the fact that it's about hatred. 

LadyDamodred wrote...
.And you did not just say leniency makes a great king.  You take that back right now, or I'ma start calling you a liar.  Turning enemies into allies makes you a great politician, fine.  But do not even play the leniency card.

lol Why a liar? My "canon" PC is usually very leniant and doesn't kill unless necessary.
If there is the possibility to spare someone, then I am always leniant.
It's something I am raised in, because "hilm" (leniencey) is valued greatly for political leaders in my culture.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

It's also a mark of a great king not to turn on people who have stood by you through thick and thin against the very enemy you want to turn into an ally.

He is the one who thought I am turning on him. He was the one who backed himself in a corner. I would have been happy if he just let go of his hatred and moved on but he didn't give me a choice.

Furthermore, I rarely used him anyways.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SurelyForth wrote...
He's just one man, and one who has just had it proven to him that he's not that important (especially if the PC was someone he cared about). He does not feel that he is going to make or break this situation, as he does not know about the whole Archdemon thing. As far as he's concerned, if you recruit Loghain and he leaves, you've lost nothing but a companion.

In the end, Loghain costs you several Grey Wardens (Fereldan and Orlesian), hundreds of men, and pretty much the entire southern part of Ferelden. Alistair costs you a single person. I absolutely cannot do the math in my head to see how the former is better than the latter. 

Because it's never about math. It's about intentions, context, results...etc.

What Loghain did was completely different. It was motivated by security concerns and by the lopve of his homeland, which he NEVER abandons.

[cmessaz]

What do you think of this mage's robe? Not as up close as the other one, but still.

[sylvanaerie]

*sigh* Can't yall just agree to disagree? this has been hashed out again and again on multiple threads and its starting to read as ugly not a debate.

Cmess...is that a nightrobe? it looks like something she would sleep in. Comfy though

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 13 avril 2010 - 02:02 .

[Thalorin1919]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

It's also a mark of a great king not to turn on people who have stood by you through thick and thin against the very enemy you want to turn into an ally.

He is the one who thought I am turning on him. He was the one who backed himself in a corner. I would have been happy if he just let go of his hatred and moved on but he didn't give me a choice.

Furthermore, I rarely used him anyways.

You're trying to go with a black and white complex, that only place that exists is in Lord of the Rings. Which is that way. ------------------->

You didnt back him into a corner. He just believed you would do that you thought was justice. When you accept the man who killed Grey Wardens, a King, nobles, peasants, and sold slaves in a country that you love, how can you simply accept that?

"Oh yes Commander, great decision."

You're bound to have a royal freakout with anyone. You're expecting Alistair to think you're right just because you are the top dog at the moment. Kings and Commanders earn the loyalty of those below them by getting to know them, and getting them to know you. When he believes you will bring down justice on Loghain, but you dont, and then you accept him into the Grey Wardens. Of course he is gonna leave. He doesnt know who you are anymore, and its obvious to him you dont know him.

[Thalorin1919]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
He's just one man, and one who has just had it proven to him that he's not that important (especially if the PC was someone he cared about). He does not feel that he is going to make or break this situation, as he does not know about the whole Archdemon thing. As far as he's concerned, if you recruit Loghain and he leaves, you've lost nothing but a companion.

In the end, Loghain costs you several Grey Wardens (Fereldan and Orlesian), hundreds of men, and pretty much the entire southern part of Ferelden. Alistair costs you a single person. I absolutely cannot do the math in my head to see how the former is better than the latter. 

Because it's never about math. It's about intentions, context, results...etc.

What Loghain did was completely different. It was motivated by security concerns and by the lopve of his homeland, which he NEVER abandons.

Just because he doesnt LEAVE, doesnt make what he did any better. What did he do? He sold elves into slavery, started a civil war so he can secure the border. SECURE THE BORDER? From WHAT? He would've destroyed any hope he had for his homeland if he had won.

I dont even think he loves Ferelden, he just really REALLY hates Orlais. And yet you accuse Alistair of just walking out on his country becuase he doesnt agree with you? Look at what Loghain did, was that any better? He started a civil war with his people, sold elves into slavery, executed nobles and killed his own people. All because they didnt agree with him?

The majority of the people would walk on you. You just let a man who has committed attrocious acts on his own country and people into the Grey Wardens, and let the one person who has stood by all your decisions, has fought by your side, and actually cared about saving Ferelden from the true enemy go?

Modifié par Thalorin1919, 13 avril 2010 - 02:07 .

[Sabriel.]

sylvanaerie wrote...

*sigh* Can't yall just agree to disagree? this has been hashed out again and again on multiple threads and its starting to read as ugly not a debate.

Yes please. This argument is beyond old.

Modifié par Mynnymac, 13 avril 2010 - 02:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

You're trying to go with a black and white complex, that only place that exists is in Lord of the Rings. Which is that way. ------------------->

I am a moral relativist, so no it's very far from black and white.

The same way many great leaders accept their former rivals. Loghain did what he did because he loves Ferelden and he now sees that I am a better leader than him, so he will follow. Whatever he did was out of military and political necessity / lack of options. I can forgive mistakes, as long as the intentions were clear.

I couldn't care less if Alistair likes my decision or not. And I don't care if he abandons my command. But to abandon his nation and his duty as a Grey WArden, while also claiming that he loves Duncan? Please, that's utterly pathetic.

If Alistair told me in the landsmeet: "You know what? **** you. I won't listen to you anymore. I am fighting the blight my way from now on"
I seriously would have respect Alistair tremendously. But what he did is not worthy of respect.

EDIT: And I will not get into another Loghain debate.
The difference is clear. Loghain never abandonned his nation and his duty. Alistair did. Period.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 avril 2010 - 02:09 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Cmessaz, what exactly is she wearing lol. It looks like half an outfit lol

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I disagree. If I love a nation, I would never abandon it because people happen to dsagree with my opinion.

You can disagree, but Alistair states how he feels.  You might think he doesn't love them enough, but that's very different from pretending to love them.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Of course, because he is a delluded fool. Where is the justice in killing Jory?
He knows what the Wardens are but all of a sudden, he feels like they are justice superheroes.

Incidently, if he didn't mind Duncan killing Jory, then he mustn't mind me killing him for the same reason.

Is he naive?  Yes.  He understands the Grey Wardens have to do terrible things, but he doesn't understand quite how far they go.  Riordan's little speech isn't exactly convincing.  Maybe if Duncan had told him about how he was conscripted, things would have been different.  And you don't kill him for the same reasons.  You allow him to be killed for political reasons.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes, it's understandable. But it's not about justice. It's revenge and whatever moral dressing you give it won't change the fact that it's about hatred.

Does he hate Loghain?  Oh my goodness, yes.  My chars do too, some more than others.  Justice and hatred are not mutally exclusive.  Alistair's issue is that Loghain is not brought to justice.  He is, from Alistair's PoV, rewarded.  For him it is about right and wrong.  That is, for me at least, what makes the difference between justice and revenge.  Revenge is more personal, while Alistair doesn't care how he dies, only that he does.

KnightofPhoenx wrote...
lol Why a liar? My "canon" PC is usually very leniant and doesn't kill unless necessary.
If there is the possibility to spare someone, then I am always leniant.
It's something I am raised in, because "hilm" (leniencey) is valued greatly for political leaders in my culture.

Yes, except for brutally putting down uprisings, killing Alistair when you could give him mercy, etc...  You are not lenient in that regard.  You cannot consider what you know happens to Alistair when you let him leave.  You don't know that.  At that moment, you are choosing to deny your comrade in arms for over a year mercy.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 13 avril 2010 - 02:11 .

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Because it's never about math. It's about intentions, context, results...etc.

What Loghain did was completely different. It was motivated by security concerns and by the lopve of his homeland, which he NEVER abandons.

His homeland would have better if he had abandoned it.  He threw everything that made Ferelden Ferelden out the window.  He did the very things he fought to free his country from.

Geh, this thread it rapidly wandering away from it's intended purpose.

[SurelyForth]

I really want to point out that Ferelden would have probably been better off had Loghain abandoned it instead of making himself regent. Instead, I will invoke Sgt. Kylon. Everyone can agree on Sgt. Kylon!

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 avril 2010 - 02:13 .