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[Merilsell]

If you have the urge to do THIS debate again, the wonderful Loghain sidequest thread had this discussion again, last time I checked. Been there, done that D.

Oh and shameless self-advertising on my part. Chapter 14 is up, if anyone is interested. Link is in sig ^^

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...  You can turn him down for stuff, deny him things, and it's not a betraya;. 

Because his desire for revenge is greater than the little things. Evidently, including his love. I don't mind vengeance, I can be a vengeful person. But that's just unhealthy.

I don't think may would argue that it isn't his finest quality. It's his 'fatal flaw', in the same way that indecision if Hamlet's. It doesn't negate his good qualities, it just makes him very human and capable of making a tragic mistake.

Of course.
I was just contesting the theory that Alistair puts his love over his desires, because he clearly doesn't, vis a vis this one desire.

I have a thought.  Let us, when we consider the relationships, leave out situations that are breaking points for them.  So for Alistair we shall exclude the Landsmeet, and for Morrigan we shall leave out her leaving you on the eve of battle b/c she doesn't get a demon baby.

Fair enough?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
I have a thought.  Let us, when we consider the relationships, leave out situations that are breaking points for them.  So for Alistair we shall exclude the Landsmeet, and for Morrigan we shall leave out her leaving you on the eve of battle b/c she doesn't get a demon baby.

Fair enough?

No. I do not want to turn a blind eye on characters.

Yes, I am fully aware Morrigan leaves us if she doesn't get what she wants. But she never claimed she would give up everything for love, so it was expected. And I certainly do not claim that Morrigan puts her love above her desires / what she must do.

Furthermore, Morrigan has a purpose in mind that is unknown to us right now. So we do not have enough info to judge her actions fully. With Alistair on the otherhand, we know exactly what happens to him when he abadons the fight. He becomes a sad, miserable pathetic drunk.

[mellifera]

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...  You can turn him down for stuff, deny him things, and it's not a betraya;. 

Because his desire for revenge is greater than the little things. Evidently, including his love. I don't mind vengeance, I can be a vengeful person. But that's just unhealthy.

I don't think may would argue that it isn't his finest quality. It's his 'fatal flaw', in the same way that indecision if Hamlet's. It doesn't negate his good qualities, it just makes him very human and capable of making a tragic mistake.

Of course. I was just contesting the theory that Alistair puts his love over his desires, because he clearly doesn't, vis a vis this one desire.

Hey! Look at me agreeing with KoP, guys! In this particular instance. He's pretty much a normal person. He does when he can and doesn't when he can't. What he sees as his duty/the right thing will always come first., when push comes to shove. That's one of the things I like about him, even when it results in cutting off of noses to spite faces.

[LadyDamodred]

No, I am saying we leave it out of the discussions like this because we cannot force others to see the same way we do, so we shall end up going round and round in a pointless circle since it is an arguement that cannot be resolved. What happens with Alistair, like with Morrigan, is one event that I don't think truly changes how they feel about our PCs, or the core components of their relationships with the PCs. So in order to keep the thread from devolving into this endless debate, we simply not discuss it. We can discuss other things, but these two key moments will never be resolved, so in the best interests of all, we should let it lie.

errant:  How goes the msn/aim thing? 

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 09 mai 2010 - 01:52 .

[cmessaz]

Ahem. Not to change the subject, but I'd like to add this to go along with my "what I think of mages" post earlier today.
This one is called "What I think of those bastard Howe archers who keep using dirty fighting on me repeatedly".

[Merilsell]

Oh look, happy pandas:

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote... No, I am saying we leave it out of the discussions like this because we cannot force others to see the same way we do, so we shall end up going round and round in a pointless circle since it is an arguement that cannot be resolved. What happens with Alistair, like with Morrigan, is one event that I don't think truly changes how they feel about our PCs, or the core components of their relationships with the PCs. So in order to keep the thread from devolving into this endless debate, we simply not discuss it. We can discuss other things, but these two key moments will never be resolved, so in the best interests of all, we should let it lie.

This is probably true, although it would be possible to discuss these things if we refrained from drawing hard and fast conclusions, ie 'This shows that he's..., This shows that she's...

[errant_knight]

Merilsell wrote... Oh look, happy pandas:

Oh, look at the happy pandas! *is distracted*

I think we need to have a little chat about aspect ratio....

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 mai 2010 - 01:55 .

[Lady Jess]

Holy maker, I just finished Ostagar on my Dalish, who I thought would have no real reason to execute Loghain. Then I let the cutscene play after the beacon, which I'd been skipping. I paid attention, to the torch lights in the distance. I watched them stay still, until Loghain called the retreat. Then I watched them all move with the visible troops. We really COULD have won the battle. He really DID leave us to die. And his men really COULD have made the difference.



I now feel really good about my Tess sparing him for the reasons she did. And I'll feel really REALLY good cutting his bloody head off at the next landsmeet.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh, I see LD. I misunderstood. Ok fair enough

[errant_knight]

Lady Jess wrote... Holy maker, I just finished Ostagar on my Dalish, who I thought would have no real reason to execute Loghain. Then I let the cutscene play after the beacon, which I'd been skipping. I paid attention, to the torch lights in the distance. I watched them stay still, until Loghain called the retreat. Then I watched them all move with the visible troops. We really COULD have won the battle. He really DID leave us to die. And his men really COULD have made the difference.



I now feel really good about my Tess sparing him for the reasons she did. And I'll feel really REALLY good cutting his bloody head off at the next landsmeet.

I know! The first time I actually looked at the background and saw the number of torches, it was like a kick in the gut. Especially true when you realize that only one soldier in however many, I don't know, five?, would be carrying a torch.

[Gilsa]

Lady Jess wrote...

Holy maker, I just finished Ostagar on my Dalish, who I thought would have no real reason to execute Loghain. Then I let the cutscene play after the beacon, which I'd been skipping. I paid attention, to the torch lights in the distance. I watched them stay still, until Loghain called the retreat. Then I watched them all move with the visible troops. We really COULD have won the battle. He really DID leave us to die. And his men really COULD have made the difference.

I now feel really good about my Tess sparing him for the reasons she did. And I'll feel really REALLY good cutting his bloody head off at the next landsmeet.

Now see ... the AMOUNT of men he had with him at Ostagar had me thinking that he'd be able to bring those troops with him to the archdemon fight, in addition to the three treaties that were already coming. In my head, it was the more sensible choice to bring this general along than kill him prematurely for revenge.

Then, of course, in the end, I was merely trading one soldier for another. It works out if you're not doing the dark ritual though.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh, I see LD. I misunderstood. Ok fair enough

Yes, we must all make sacrifices for the greater good.  And I am probably the most stubborn person you will ever meet.  I would quite happily debate this endlessly, but it truly serves no purpose, especially between us, and you have no idea how hard it is or how much it is killing me.

I'm not saying we never discuss anything about it, but since we both know where we stand on the issue, when one of us comments on something, based off of how we see it, we just not argue since we know why we each draw the conclusions we do.  I just want the discussion to stay out of the areas that we cannot resolve.  So when I comment on Alistair's relationship, since you know how I see the Landsmeet, we don't argue that specific point.  Vice-versa with Morrigan's stuff.

[LadyDamodred]

Gilsa wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Holy maker, I just finished Ostagar on my Dalish, who I thought would have no real reason to execute Loghain. Then I let the cutscene play after the beacon, which I'd been skipping. I paid attention, to the torch lights in the distance. I watched them stay still, until Loghain called the retreat. Then I watched them all move with the visible troops. We really COULD have won the battle. He really DID leave us to die. And his men really COULD have made the difference.

I now feel really good about my Tess sparing him for the reasons she did. And I'll feel really REALLY good cutting his bloody head off at the next landsmeet.

Now see ... the AMOUNT of men he had with him at Ostagar had me thinking that he'd be able to bring those troops with him to the archdemon fight, in addition to the three treaties that were already coming. In my head, it was the more sensible choice to bring this general along than kill him prematurely for revenge.

Then, of course, in the end, I was merely trading one soldier for another. It works out if you're not doing the dark ritual though.

See, I figure that Anora becomes Teyrna of Gwaren when Loghain dies and thus we get his troops anyway.  At least, that would be logical.  I can't see her leaving her troops to just chill while the fate of the country hangs in the balance.

[Lady Jess]

errant_knight wrote...

Lady Jess wrote... Holy maker, I just finished Ostagar on my Dalish, who I thought would have no real reason to execute Loghain. Then I let the cutscene play after the beacon, which I'd been skipping. I paid attention, to the torch lights in the distance. I watched them stay still, until Loghain called the retreat. Then I watched them all move with the visible troops. We really COULD have won the battle. He really DID leave us to die. And his men really COULD have made the difference.

I now feel really good about my Tess sparing him for the reasons she did. And I'll feel really REALLY good cutting his bloody head off at the next landsmeet.

I know! The first time I actually looked at the background and saw the number of torches, it was like a kick in the gut. Especially true when you realize that only one soldier in however many, I don't know, five?, would be carrying a torch.

He's going to pay. Tess spared him, and lost Alistair in the process. But the rp behind it came from a video of Loghain in Awakening. What better revenge on the "Hero of River Dane" than to spare his life (keeping blood of the GW hands), make him take part in the DR, leave him at the gate during the final battle (No glory for you!), make him recruit, then have him posted in Orlais. Something had ticked me off in real life the day I decided all that...lol

Also, I just picked up Morrigan, and used the "get over yourself Alistair" line and still got +4:D

AND HE came up with the treaties idea this time, I chose to question Eamon's honor, and contact the grey wardens, and he finally took initiative after Flemeth says "you have more at your disposal than you think". It was nice that his lightbulb went on without my help.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh, I see LD. I misunderstood. Ok fair enough

Yes, we must all make sacrifices for the greater good.  And I am probably the most stubborn person you will ever meet.  I would quite happily debate this endlessly, but it truly serves no purpose, especially between us, and you have no idea how hard it is or how much it is killing me.

Why? I hope it's not because I am rude or anything...

[Merilsell]

Lady Jess wrote...

Holy maker, I just finished Ostagar on my Dalish, who I thought would have no real reason to execute Loghain. Then I let the cutscene play after the beacon, which I'd been skipping. I paid attention, to the torch lights in the distance. I watched them stay still, until Loghain called the retreat. Then I watched them all move with the visible troops. We really COULD have won the battle. He really DID leave us to die. And his men really COULD have made the difference.

I now feel really good about my Tess sparing him for the reasons she did. And I'll feel really REALLY good cutting his bloody head off at the next landsmeet.

My Dalish frikkin hates Loghain, as simple as that. Basically because he incarnates all what she hates on humans. For her he is the ideal picture of the treacherous, manipulative and slimy shem, she loves to kill. Furthermore she also hates him because it is his fault that she -- as one of the last Grey Warden -- has to wander through whole Ferelden on a ridicolous suicide mission now. With humans as companions. Lenya is not amused about this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...

Holy maker, I just finished Ostagar on my Dalish, who I thought would have no real reason to execute Loghain. Then I let the cutscene play after the beacon, which I'd been skipping. I paid attention, to the torch lights in the distance. I watched them stay still, until Loghain called the retreat. Then I watched them all move with the visible troops. We really COULD have won the battle. He really DID leave us to die. And his men really COULD have made the difference.

No, it is definately not certain that the battle was winnable. RtO hints heavily at it. Even Cailan knew that the probability of losing was great. The mages scattered easily and Cailan's position was overwhelmed.

And David Gaider also commented that the darkspawn were much more numerous than expected at Ostagar, in addition to being smarter (preempting against the beacon). So victory was surely not assured had Loghain acted. And if he did join and lost, then Ferelden effectively lost all of its army, instead of a part of it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 mai 2010 - 02:15 .

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh, I see LD. I misunderstood. Ok fair enough

Yes, we must all make sacrifices for the greater good.  And I am probably the most stubborn person you will ever meet.  I would quite happily debate this endlessly, but it truly serves no purpose, especially between us, and you have no idea how hard it is or how much it is killing me.

Why? I hope it's not because I am rude or anything...

lol, no, no, nothing like that.  I mean letting things go and not arguing them is what's killing me.  It's just the way I am.  It takes so much self control to not continually open the argument.  I guess it's good for me.  *grumbles*

And some Alistair classic to help me through it.

[errant_knight]

Heh, I'm out of it anyway. I have to go write so I can give Lady Damodred something to proof read. And KoP's point of view gives me a well reasoned point of view for my villainess, so she won't seem all one dimensional and insane. Yay!

[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, I'm out of it anyway. I have to go write so I can give Lady Damodred something to proof read. And KoP's point of view gives me a well reasoned point of view for my villainess, so she won't seem all one dimensional and insane. Yay!

Awww, but I like batsh*t crazy.  *scuffs foot in the dirt*

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

errant_knight wrote... Heh, I'm out of it anyway. I have to go write so I can give Lady Damodred something to proof read. And KoP's point of view gives me a well reasoned point of view for my villainess, so she won't seem all one dimensional and insane. Yay!

Awww, but I like batsh*t crazy.  *scuffs foot in the dirt*

Tell you what, I'll give her a wig out meltdown, just for you.

A question: is Sophia Dryden Levi's Great Grandmother, or Great Great Grandmother?

[LadyDamodred]

Hooray!

She is more than that, I think. She died 200 years ago, so there's likely to be a few more 'greats' in there. Just use 'great-grandmother several times over'.

Remind me to take more pics without the black bars:

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 09 mai 2010 - 02:37 .