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[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

Have I ever mentioned that my favorite line to say to Alistair is "Feeling a little thorny, are we?" It's the best, and his reaction is just ace. Now, if only I could talk Thane helmet with him. *sigh*

I've actually never chosen that one!  It seems like a tender moment so I guess I haven't wanted to joke it.

So, I don't think we've talked about favorite lines.  I already said mine was when you tell him to put on the damn crown and he says "Maker's breath!"  But he has so many.  His battle lines are the best.  I recently heard a new one for when he gets up after "dying."  He says "Did we win?  We won!  Yay!  (little croaking voice)  yay..."  He also has one for when he's wounded, something like "New strategy, I'll bite their ankles."  That puts me in stitches.

Top of the page... slightly NSFW fan art here!

Modifié par Addai67, 14 avril 2010 - 03:04 .

[cmessaz]

I like the way he says "makers breath" if he isn't going to be king and you tell him about the demon baby morrigan wants. VERY cute.

And the thorny thing, that is awsome as well. Get you a couple xtra approval points, too.

Modifié par cmessaz, 14 avril 2010 - 03:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
You know, I try to explain this to my students.  They're not quite old enough to understand, however.  There's something compelling about tragedy, especially when it involves love.  I've had long discussions with them, using LotR as an example and how the Ring Bearers are all corrupted. 

I 100% agree. I find tragic stories to be much more meaningful than happy ones. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy some happiness, but I think passions need to lead to some suffering and that's part of being human (incidently, I dislike all philosophies that want to end this suffering by removing passion). Zevran gave a few words of wisdom vis a vis that.

For instance, I found the Morrigan romance to be infinately superior to the romance with Leliana. Not because Leliana was bad (I do like her alot). But the fact the Morrigan romance ended the way it did just makes it perfect (and the best romance imo). I nearly cried so that says alot.

That being said, I have no idea how you can mix ring bearers with love
The only tragic character was the Mouth of Sauron, who was just a negotiator / messenger who was brutrally murdered by Aragorn, who disregarded a very common convention of war.

[cmessaz]

But if you are in love with the man, how could you order his execution? And if not, doesn't Anora sort of prove to be a ruthless b**ch? If I'm trying to get achievments, it's one thing. (Or if I'm trying to be king) But as a whole, I really do believe Loghain deserves to die. He could have at least tried to help Cailen, and then if that proved too difficult, then he could have retreated. Some loss, but hey, he's no longer the bad guy! He wanted Cailen dead because of his fear of Orlais. Period. I can't forgive that. After sparing him once, I sort of got to see a different side of Loghain. But I still think he deserves to die.

Modifié par cmessaz, 14 avril 2010 - 03:11 .

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
You know, I try to explain this to my students.  They're not quite old enough to understand, however.  There's something compelling about tragedy, especially when it involves love.  I've had long discussions with them, using LotR as an example and how the Ring Bearers are all corrupted. 

I 100% agree. I find tragic stories to be much more meaningful than happy ones. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy some happiness, but I think passions need to lead to some suffering and that's part of being human (incidently, I dislike all philosophies that want to end this suffering by removing passion). Zevran gave a few words of wisdom vis a vis that.

For instance, I found the Morrigan romance to be infinately superior to the romance with Leliana. Not because Leliana was bad (I do like her alot). But the fact the Morrigan romance ended the way it did just makes it perfect (and the best romance imo). I nearly cried so that says alot.

That being said, I have no idea how you can mix ring bearers with love
The only tragic character was the Mouth of Sauron, who was just a negotiator / messenger who was brutrally murdered by Aragorn, who disregarded a very common convention of war.

It's not that they're more meaningful.  Just that it's important to experience and understand.  and it's not about mixing it with love.  Not sure where you're going there.  I am referring to the way things can mark your soul, which is what happens to the ring bearers.  And in DA, it can do the same thing, depending on how you play.  Your characters are never the same.  They're literally touched by darkness, tainted, and what they experience means they can never go back.

cmessaz wrote...
Beating the game in four hours is impossible, even with unlimited skill books, insanely over-powered gear and Armageddon spells on easy difficulty. Even then it took me nearly 15.

This is why I was good and polite and did not call him a liar to his face.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...
I've actually never chosen that one!  It seems like a tender moment so I guess I haven't wanted to joke it.

So, I don't think we've talked about favorite lines.  I already said mine was when you tell him to put on the damn crown and he says "Maker's breath!"  But he has so many.  His battle lines are the best.  I recently heard a new one for when he gets up after "dying."  He says "Did we win?  We won!  Yay!  (little croaking voice)  yay..."  He also has one for when he's wounded, something like "New strategy, I'll bite their ankles."  That puts me in stitches.

Top of the page... slightly NSFW fan art here!

He actually seems to like the joking, I've found. My main is pretty, uh, resistant to his romantic overtures (actually, she's just uncomfortable with the idea that she might come to care for him and deals with it through smartassery). She not only asks if he's feeling a little thorny, she also asks if the rose means they're married. He plays along so nicely that it makes it all worthwhile. 

The line that I feel encapsulates Alistair's self-perception (and is part of an exchange that I find inexplicably hilarious despite it making me a bit sad) is:

Alistair: I remember you Bann Teagan, although the last time we met I was much younger and covered in mud.
Bann Teagan: Covered in mud...Alistair, it is you, isn't it!

I find it telling that he doesn't say "Your brother raised me" or "It's Alistair", but chooses to reinforce the image of himself as forgettable and a bit of a nuisance. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 avril 2010 - 03:12 .

[cmessaz]

LadyDamodred: Cute little kids. What age group? It wasn't for lack of trying on my part, mind you I was trying to beat the game quickly.

Modifié par cmessaz, 14 avril 2010 - 03:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

*eye twitching* Must resist defending Loghain. Must try to smile and nod *eye twitch*.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*eye twitching* Must resist defending Loghain. Must try to smile and nod *eye twitch*.

You never grow tired of it, do you?

[cmessaz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*eye twitching* Must resist defending Loghain. Must try to smile and nod *eye twitch*.

I can just picture this, lol.
Like I said, I can relate a little. But in my mind, especially if I'm a human noble, he deserves to die. He elevated the man who murdered my family. But no arguing! I understand your perspective and respect it! I took college comp 1, 2, and 3. So I know that I must understand both sides of an argument and I do. But my opinion doesn't change. Sorry!

Modifié par cmessaz, 14 avril 2010 - 03:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*eye twitching* Must resist defending Loghain. Must try to smile and nod *eye twitch*.

You never grow tired of it, do you?

Yes I never will.
Unless they manage to create a more hated character that is.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2010 - 03:18 .

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*eye twitching* Must resist defending Loghain. Must try to smile and nod *eye twitch*.

You never grow tired of it, do you?

Yes I never will.
Unless they manage to create a more hated character that is.  

*points at Cammen and Howe*

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

He actually seems to like the joking, I've found. My main is pretty, uh, resistant to his romantic overtures (actually, she's just uncomfortable with the idea that she might come to care for him and deals with it through smartassery). She not only asks if he's feeling a little thorny, she also asks if the rose means they're married. He plays along so nicely that it makes it all worthwhile.

I'll try it next time.  It would probably be IC for my Dalish character.  The problem with the rose is that it often happens when I don't expect it, so I might not have a save where I could try different possibilities.  He does respond well to jokes, but sometimes in the romantic stuff, not so much.  There's a touchy line that's hard to know when to cross.

[LadyDamodred]

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred: Cute little kids. What age group? It wasn't for lack of trying on my part, mind you I was trying to beat the game quickly.

5th Grade.  And...cute...is not the word I would use.

[cmessaz]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

He actually seems to like the joking, I've found. My main is pretty, uh, resistant to his romantic overtures (actually, she's just uncomfortable with the idea that she might come to care for him and deals with it through smartassery). She not only asks if he's feeling a little thorny, she also asks if the rose means they're married. He plays along so nicely that it makes it all worthwhile.

I'll try it next time.  It would probably be IC for my Dalish character.  The problem with the rose is that it often happens when I don't expect it, so I might not have a save where I could try different possibilities.  He does respond well to jokes, but sometimes in the romantic stuff, not so much.  There's a touchy line that's hard to know when to cross.

You get 10 approval points for going this route.

[Miri1984]

Tragedy is about exploring the depths and heights that humans can go to. I find I'm reluctant to read or watch tragedy these days. I loooove Joss Whedon's work and I can never forgive him for what he does with his characters - he's a tragiholic, but he does it so well that I can happily watch every season of Buffy and Angel and Firefly without stopping, even though I go through boxes of tissues.



DA did it beautifully with the Alistair romance. I played through my first time and made all the decisions that would lead to a tragic ending - made him king even though I was a mage, got dumped, refused the ritual, watched him die - and bawled my eyes out. I will never play that ending again, ever. But it's the one that my original, first, gameplay choices led to.



Obviously I needed to be "hardened" before playing. Where's my personal sidequest?

[cmessaz]

LadyDamodred wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred: Cute little kids. What age group? It wasn't for lack of trying on my part, mind you I was trying to beat the game quickly.

5th Grade.  And...cute...is not the word I would use.

My son is in 5th grade. And no I probably wouldn't use cute either....

[Addai]

cmessaz wrote...

You get 10 approval points for going this route.

No way!  That's amazing.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*eye twitching* Must resist defending Loghain. Must try to smile and nod *eye twitch*.

You never grow tired of it, do you?

Yes I never will.
Unless they manage to create a more hated character that is.  

Does it help that I hate Howe so much more than Loghain?  Espcially after someone pointed out Ser Gilmore and Mother Mallol's corpses in Fort Drakon?

[SurelyForth]

cmessaz wrote...

But if you are in love with the man, how could you order his execution? And if not, doesn't Anora sort of prove to be a ruthless b**ch? If I'm trying to get achievments, it's one thing. (Or if I'm trying to be king) But as a whole, I really do believe Loghain deserves to die. He could have at least tried to help Cailen, and then if that proved too difficult, then he could have retreated. Some loss, but hey, he's no longer the bad guy! He wanted Cailen dead because of his fear of Orlais. Period. I can't forgive that. After sparing him once, I sort of got to see a different side of Loghain. But I still think he deserves to die.

I RP it like this: if the PC knows anything about Loghain (and a HN would probably know quite a bit), you could easily get to a place where, if you take a good hard look at your situation, you are Loghain 2.0. You're fighting against the person calling the shots in your country, your best friend/lover is heir to the throne, and you are accomplishing amazing feats and amassing a great deal of power. 

So when my HN stood in the Landsmeet and heard Loghain ranting about what was happening, and the costs of war, and what he had faced during the rebellion, she thought, "This could be men in 20 years. I could be this man, haunted by the demons of my youth and blind to the demons of the present. I could have the status of a hero, the power of a teryn (or a queen), and unchecked access to armies. Loghain was an honest to goodness hero once, and look at what he became. I cannot let this happen to me."

Then, scared witless, it became imperative to do the most un-Loghain thing she could think of, which in the moment was sparing him. It was horrible, she handed Alistair over to Anora and basically became a hate-incubator for the rest of the game. But, in the end, it was satisfying in an awful way. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 avril 2010 - 03:26 .

[Addai]

I'm all for beautiful tragedy in stories, but I can't write that way, and it's hard for me to play that way. Which is probably one reason I suck as a (fiction) writer.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*eye twitching* Must resist defending Loghain. Must try to smile and nod *eye twitch*.

You never grow tired of it, do you?

Yes I never will.
Unless they manage to create a more hated character that is.  

*points at Cammen and Howe*

Hmmm, let me rephrase that.
More hated complex characters.

Cammen is very one dimensional. He can be summed up in onw word. And that is Cammen.

[cmessaz]

Addai67 wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

You get 10 approval points for going this route.

No way!  That's amazing.

Toolset is the way! I know how to get max approval in every scenareo!

[Addai]

Heh, that's cheating.

[LadyDamodred]

SurelyForth wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

But if you are in love with the man, how could you order his execution? And if not, doesn't Anora sort of prove to be a ruthless b**ch? If I'm trying to get achievments, it's one thing. (Or if I'm trying to be king) But as a whole, I really do believe Loghain deserves to die. He could have at least tried to help Cailen, and then if that proved too difficult, then he could have retreated. Some loss, but hey, he's no longer the bad guy! He wanted Cailen dead because of his fear of Orlais. Period. I can't forgive that. After sparing him once, I sort of got to see a different side of Loghain. But I still think he deserves to die.

I RP it like this: if the PC knows anything about Loghain (and a HN would probably know quite a bit), you could easily get to a place where, if you take a good hard look at your situation, you are Loghain 2.0. You're fighting against the person calling the shots in your country, your best friend/lover is heir to the throne, and you are accomplishing amazing feats and amassing a great deal of power. 

So when my HN stood in the Landsmeet and heard Loghain ranting about what was happening, and the costs of war, and what he had faced during the rebellion, she thought, "This could be men in 20 years. I could be this man, haunted by the demons of my youth and blind to the demons of the present. I could have the status of a hero, the power of a teryn (or a queen), and unchecked access to armies. Loghain was an honest to goodness hero once, and look at what he became. I cannot let this happen to me."

Then, scared witless, it became imperative to do the most un-Loghain thing she could think of, which in the moment was sparing him. It was horrible, she handed Alistair over to Anora and basically became a hate-incubator for the rest of the game. But, in the end, it was satisfying in an awful way. 

Mmm, yes, that is one way to RP it.  I like it.  I went a different route when I rp'd it, which became part of a fanfic.  That was the Alistair drunkard ending, though.  When I executed him, I didn't bother to come up with an rp story for it.

*goes back to new anime series she is digging*