60083 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

sylvanaerie wrote...

To me it does. Fanboy or not I don't think Cailan would have known about this. The Joining is/appears to be blood magic. And we all know how everyone views that in this world... Cailan and Duncan weren't that close that Duncan would share something like that with him. He won't even tell the new recruits who are about to possibly DIE what's going on till he has them in the old temple. I just don't see him leaking this info out to a complete moron even if he is a fanboy NOT if he would KILL someone to keep from spreading the information.

Top of page...hmmm I think this is rather fitting...I want some answers Bioware...

Also, if all those secrets were open secrets, how can Loghain assume that the Grey Warden's role during a Blight are only fairy tales?

It just doesn't work at all.

That said, what brought this on was a fic that started out with Eamon miraculously knowing about another Grey Warden secret: The fertility issue. Since no one is supposed to know, no on can ever prod the human noble queen about it until the problem reveals itself after some years of marriage.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 mai 2010 - 10:08 .

[Axekix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

No, Axekix. The joining smacks of blood magic. And if THATS how Anora found out (through Cailan) trusting him with this secret would have been a huge mistake. Duncan will even tell the PC he doens't know king Cailan that well so NO I don't think its something he would have told the king.

Personally I think its sloppy storytelling. its all a huge secret so the drama is drawn out. ooooo you can die from it but you don't find out all the particulars till the Joining itself. Once its done and in the player's mind what happens there is no further need in the story to keep it a secret so people know about it.

There is NO reason Anora, Leliana and Wynne should know about it at all. They won't even tell their freaking recruits. its BS

I wouldn't expect them to know ALL of the details about it, but it doesn't strike me as unbelievable for them to have a vague idea of what is involved.

• Cailan: King of Fereldan, tasked with organizing a front against the Blight who also idolizes the GW (if anyone outside of the Wardens would know it would definitely be him)
• Wynne is a senior enchanter/candidate for first enchanter, and as such may be privy to the particulars of the joining considering mages had a hand in developing the process.  The tower houses Tevinter artifacts and texts on blood magic so it wouldn't surprise me if they had some documentation of the joining.  Obviously it would be kept under wraps however.
• Leliana is probably the least likely to know of the 3, but she is a bard who dealt in espionage.  Stories and legends are her forte.  How much she would know is hard to say, but it's not out of the question to think she had heard legends in Orlais.  There are hundreds of wardens there, no?  Rumors spread.

I don't think it's as big a plot hole as people make it out to be personally.

Modifié par Axekix, 14 mai 2010 - 10:12 .

[sylvanaerie]

Sorry...I woke at 4am (yet again) and that tends to make me a bit pissy. If I come across confrontational its just because lack of continuity in stories drives me nuts. It shouldn't be up to the player (reader) to fill in the holes for something that crucial to the story. Its one of the reasons I don't read fanfics.

[Nu-Nu]

klarabella wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

To me it does. Fanboy or not I don't think Cailan would have known about this. The Joining is/appears to be blood magic. And we all know how everyone views that in this world... Cailan and Duncan weren't that close that Duncan would share something like that with him. He won't even tell the new recruits who are about to possibly DIE what's going on till he has them in the old temple. I just don't see him leaking this info out to a complete moron even if he is a fanboy NOT if he would KILL someone to keep from spreading the information.

Top of page...hmmm I think this is rather fitting...I want some answers Bioware...

Also, if all those secrets were open screts, how can Loghain assume that the Grey Warden's role during a Blight are only fairy tales?

It just doesn't work at all.

That said, what brought this on was a fic that started out with Eamon miraculously knowing about another Grey Warden sceret: The fertility issue. Since no one is supposed to know, no on can ever prod the human noble queen about it until the problem reveals itself after some years of marriage.

Only the joining is a secret, not the whole grey warden thing, and it doesn't mean people won't notice anything strange going on, like grey wardens not bearing that many children or them having a shorter life expectancy.

And well, my HNF is going to get immunity to the taint like Fiona  She will, she will, she will....

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 14 mai 2010 - 10:15 .

[Axekix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sorry...I woke at 4am (yet again) and that tends to make me a bit pissy.

Yeah, mornings suck... but hey at least it's friday!

[sylvanaerie]

Its all handwaving Axekix. Why go to the extreme of murdering Jory if people are going to know about the Joining in the game anyway. I think its one of those plot things they bring up only when they think about making some point in the game.

Considering how freaked out Wynne gets any time yoiu mention "blood" magic, I DOUBT she would be all hunky dory with the Joining and what can happen (Die).

If its such a huge secret (even the records of joinings are encrypted) then WHY would there be ANY legends of the Joining for Leliana to know? Did she seduce a GW who spilled his guts before dying...but why would a bored Orlesian noble care about that anyway?

Anora knowing it is the worst WTF moment for me of all. Even if Cailan was told by Duncan considering they won't even tell the recruits what's going on, I think Duncan would have said "Okay now DON'T tell anyone this..." On second thought...no I just don't see Duncan doing that. And Cailan was pretty clueless about how an Archdemon is slain (holding on to Maric's sword so he would kill the thing if it showed itself at Ostagar). I think Cailan knew a LOT less about the GW's than people think.

[nos_astra]

Axekix wrote...
I wouldn't expect them to know ALL of the details about it, but it doesn't strike me as unbelievable for them to have a vague idea of what is involved.

• Cailan: King of Fereldan, tasked with organizing a front against the Blight who also idolizes the GW (if anyone outside of the Wardens would know it would definitely be him)
• Wynne is a senior enchanter/candidate for first enchanter, and as such may be privy to the particulars of the joining considering mages had a hand in developing the process.  The tower houses Tevinter artifacts and texts on blood magic so it wouldn't surprise me if they had some documentation of the joining.  Obviously it would be kept under wraps however.
• Leliana is probably the least likely to know of the 3, but she is a bard who dealt in espionage.  Stories and legends are her forte.  How much she would know is hard to say, but it's not out of the question to think she had heard legends in Orlais.  There are hundreds of wardens there, no?  Rumors spread.

I don't think it's as big a plot hole as people make it out to be personally.

I think it is as big a plot hole as I think because there's a lot depending on how secret the Grey Warden secrets are. If you prefer to handwave it that's fine by me but I need to think it through as I'm planning a story where this is playing a role and I want the story to make sense. So please don't take offense if I try to find arguments now.

The Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral, they bow to no lord and the Right of Conscription includes the right to conscript banns, arls, princes and even kings. So Cailan knowing would actually be a bad thing.

Loghain obviously is completely oblivious of any Grey Warden secrets and believes Grey Wardens are expendable, even during a Blight. He thinks the Grey Wardens are a fairy tale. Yet he seizes the supply of Archdemon blood when they ransack the Warden compound in Denerim.

Anora and Wynne know about the fatality, the knowledge Jory had to die for. If a random mage and the queen-consort know, why wouldn't Jory be allowed to return to his wife?

Wynne being candidate for the First Enchanter isn't conclusive in this matter as First Enchanter Irving rewards(!) you with the recruitment into the Grey Wardens if you rat out Jowan. (Considering this no mage who went this route should ever recruit Loghain as a punsihment, they should feel very much like Alistair, who also was rewarded with the recruitment.)

Leliana knows about the darkspawn blood which should be enough of a clue to why the Wardens are immune to the taint if it is common knowledge. It also is very close to blood magic, so the chantry would be expecially interested.

The documents you find at the Arl of Denerim's estate are encrypted, what for?

Modifié par klarabella, 14 mai 2010 - 10:44 .

[Axekix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Its all handwaving Axekix. Why go to the extreme of murdering Jory if people are going to know about the Joining in the game anyway. I think its one of those plot things they bring up only when they think about making some point in the game.

Well I wouldn't expect Duncan to trust Jory, a random recruit, with that kind of information  There is a difference between letting average joe walk away with their secret and divulging the same info to the ruling monarch.

Considering how freaked out Wynne gets any time yoiu mention "blood" magic, I DOUBT she would be all hunky dory with the Joining and what can happen (Die).

I don't recall her expressing an approval or disapproval for the joining either way (correct me if I'm wrong).  Understanding how it works isn't the same as endorsing it.  Wynne knows how to recognize blood magic and how it works, but doesn't use it herself or approve of it.

If its such a huge secret (even the records of joinings are encrypted) then WHY would there be ANY legends of the Joining for Leliana to know? Did she seduc.

Well, as I said, her knowing has the least support, but it's not impossible.  There are many more wardens in Orlais, which probably means they have many more joinings.  It's not implausable that someone, somewhere may have heard or seen something.  Gossip travels, etc.

[sylvanaerie]

Axekix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Its all handwaving Axekix. Why go to the extreme of murdering Jory if people are going to know about the Joining in the game anyway. I think its one of those plot things they bring up only when they think about making some point in the game.

Well I wouldn't expect Duncan to trust Jory, a random recruit, with that kind of information  There is a difference between letting average joe walk away with their secret and divulging the same info to the ruling monarch.

Considering how freaked out Wynne gets any time yoiu mention "blood" magic, I DOUBT she would be all hunky dory with the Joining and what can happen (Die).

I don't recall her expressing an approval or disapproval for the joining either way (correct me if I'm wrong).  Understanding how it works isn't the same as endorsing it.  Wynne knows how to recognize blood magic and how it works, but doesn't use it herself or approve of it.

If its such a huge secret (even the records of joinings are encrypted) then WHY would there be ANY legends of the Joining for Leliana to know? Did she seduc.

Well, as I said, her knowing has the least support, but it's not impossible.  There are many more wardens in Orlais, which probably means they have many more joinings.  It's not implausable that someone, somewhere may have heard or seen something.  Gossip travels, etc.

If you consider that Anora knowing is via Cailan knowing then trusting the monarch with that info (esp when you don't have to or don't know him that well) wasn't one of Duncan's smarter moves.  Duncan is a taciturn man who holds his cards close to his chest.  He's not going to go spreading it around.  Even if prodded Alistair (the rawest recruit in the GWs at the PC's joining) knows better than to spread rumors around.  Not saying its not possible rumors don't get spread because they do but if that were the case why isn't it more widely known (prior to the Joining scene)?  Even Jory says "I never knew there were more tests after being recruited".
No one in the game PRIOR to the Joining scene knows about the Joining and if you ask Alistair or Duncan about it neither coughs up much info
(I like that Cmessaz's mod lets you talk wiith Alistair about the Joining prior to it but you don't get much more information than you would in game really just that its unpleasant and involves Darkspawn blood)  

If there are legends, that means word of mouth and more people would know about the Joining (which means PRIOR to the scene in the first place).  Personally I think the writers just handwaved things at that point. They made the point of people not knowing, and dying violently during the ritual to up the emotional impact of the moment but once its established in the game decided to handwave the continuity of it being a huge secret.

Wynne expresses disapproval EVERY time Blood magic is brought up.  If you do Jowan's ritual with her in the party (even if the choice is do that or kill Connor) you lose 10 approval with her.  Defiling the ashes she gets upset with because its a blood ritual, not because she is particularly religious.  Even having been with the PC in the Tower to free the mages if you are a Blood Mage she will try to turn you in.  In the Alienage, even having traveled with the PC and KNOWING I woudln't accept the offer from Caladrius, she is shocked that "Little service? He is talking blood magic. Surely you wouldn't consider such a thing!"  If you try to spare Avernus she protests.  Salvaging the Anvil is a no no with Wynne (as it smacks of blood magic too and the PC can even make that comment to Caridin).  Knowing of it and approving of it (as she obviously idolizes the GW's) are two different things.

[Axekix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

If you consider that Anora knowing is via Cailan knowing then trusting the monarch with that info (esp when you don't have to or don't know him that well) wasn't one of Duncan's smarter moves.  Duncan is a taciturn man who holds his cards close to his chest.  He's not going to go spreading it around.  Even if prodded Alistair (the rawest recruit in the GWs at the PC's joining) knows better than to spread rumors around.  Not saying its not possible rumors don't get spread because they do but if that were the case why isn't it more widely known (prior to the Joining scene)?  Even Jory says "I never knew there were more tests after being recruited".
No one in the game PRIOR to the Joining scene knows about the Joining and if you ask Alistair or Duncan about it neither coughs up much info
(I like that Cmessaz's mod lets you talk wiith Alistair about the Joining prior to it but you don't get much more information than you would in game really just that its unpleasant and involves Darkspawn blood) 

Well all Anora really knows is that it is dangerous and potentially life threatening.  It's not as if she details the entire process.  Duncan telling Cailan that much seems plausable to me.  *shrug*

If there are legends, that means word of mouth and more people would know about the Joining (which means PRIOR to the scene in the first place).

In Orlais, yes.  Wardens are obviously much more rare in Fereldan.  And Orlesian/Fereldan relations aren't exactly good at the outset of the game, so I doubt word would spread to Fereldan quickly.

Wynne expresses disapproval EVERY time Blood magic is brought up.  If you do Jowan's ritual with her in the party (even if the choice is do that or kill Connor) you lose 10 approval with her.  Defiling the ashes she gets upset with because its a blood ritual, not because she is particularly religious.  Even having been with the PC in the Tower to free the mages if you are a Blood Mage she will try to turn you in.  In the Alienage, even having traveled with the PC and KNOWING I woudln't accept the offer from Caladrius, she is shocked that "Little service? He is talking blood magic. Surely you wouldn't consider such a thing!"  If you try to spare Avernus she protests.  Salvaging the Anvil is a no no with Wynne (as it smacks of blood magic too and the PC can even make that comment to Caridin).  Knowing of it and approving of it (as she obviously idolizes the GW's) are two different things.

Well I don't know if the joining is technically classified as blood magic (Alistair doesn't seem to be against it, and he detests bm as well).  It involves blood, obviously, but it is powered by lyrium, and IIRC from the codex, the main prerequisite of bm is that it's powered by blood, no?

At any rate, the point I was making is I don't think the writers really painted themselves into a corner here.  It would be nice if they had explained how exactly these people knew what they did, but it's not completely out of the question for them to have some knowledge of it imo.  I think the story could accomidate it if the writers chose to go into it.

[sylvanaerie]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter Axe and since I have been a bit of a **** I invoke the Beard as a peace offering before I go get myself a cup of Earl Gray to try to shake off the morning blechs...

[Axekix]

Hahaha, fair enough. Though I'd prefer an Isolde peace offering personally...



Anyway I'm off til the afternoon!

[sylvanaerie]

Have a great day Axe...and you woudln't like the only pic i have of Isolde...Its Teagan giving her hell for being an idiot.

[LadyDamodred]

Gilsa wrote...

Hee hee, I'm tickled by all the recent dwarf screenshots.

@Lady -- maybe try romancing Zevran instead? Some of the ladies really go wild for him, especially since they fit better height-wise. Zev+dwarf already had the best vanilla kiss in the game (or so the propaganda goes)!

I didn't get very far in my game today (still in tower of ishal), but here are my two Alistair screenshots!

Maybe.  It might take Artin awhile to warm up to any sort of romance.  She's all devastated by the loss of Gorim.

The odd thing, is I have more characters romancing Zevran now than I do Alistair.  XD  Alistair has had more romances total, though.

[LadyDamodred]

klarabella wrote...
That said, what brought this on was a fic that started out with Eamon miraculously knowing about another Grey Warden secret: The fertility issue. Since no one is supposed to know, no on can ever prod the human noble queen about it until the problem reveals itself after some years of marriage.

*coughs*

Eamon's a sneaky bastard who is overly concerned with that.  Also, Alistair did talk about in a room full of people. 

[nos_astra]

LadyDamodred wrote...

klarabella wrote...
That said, what brought this on was a fic that started out with Eamon miraculously knowing about another Grey Warden secret: The fertility issue. Since no one is supposed to know, no on can ever prod the human noble queen about it until the problem reveals itself after some years of marriage.

*coughs*

Eamon's a sneaky bastard who is overly concerned with that.  Also, Alistair did talk about in a room full of people. 

Hehe, sorry. Your fic came to my mind too when I was writing the post but it wasn't the reason. Proof!

Good point, really! There went the Grey Warden "secrets"...

I suppose, I will have to ignore the fact that Bioware didn't bother to keep the secrets a secret and pretend they are terribly secret for my story. *sigh* Consistency is overrated.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 mai 2010 - 12:23 .

[SurelyForth]

klarabella wrote...
Good point, really! There went the Grey Warden "secrets"...

I suppose, I will have to ignore the fact that Bioware didn't bother to keep the secrets a secret and pretend they are terribly secret for my story. *sigh*

Just do what I do and pretend like your companions aren't total jerks and they left when they realized what the discussion was about. Since you don't see them once Alistair starts his spiel, and they're scattered as soon as it's done, it's not a huge stretch and it makes way more sense, especially given the sensitive content of the conversation.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 mai 2010 - 12:26 .

[sabreene]

I caught this picture tonight, trying out a new character and thought it was too funny.



I think her father suspects she's giving Duncan a once over behind his back!

[Emerald Melios]

Axekix wrote...


[*]Leliana is probably the least likely to know of the 3, but she is a bard who dealt in espionage.  Stories and legends are her forte.  How much she would know is hard to say, but it's not out of the question to think she had heard legends in Orlais.  There are hundreds of wardens there, no?  Rumors spread.
[/list]I don't think it's as big a plot hole as people make it out to be personally.

Not to mention she was standing a few feet away from the Warden's bedroll when s/he and Alistair were talking about nightmares after leaving Lothering.

[sylvanaerie]

sabreene wrote...

I caught this picture tonight, trying out a new character and thought it was too funny.

I think her father suspects she's giving Duncan a once over behind his back!

2 things grabbed my attention as soon as I saw this picture.  

1) Your PC is absolutely gorgeous GJ on making her!
2) I have NEVER caught this pose and this is my favorite Bryce moment in the game where he gets up in Duncan's grill protecting his "pup" from the big bad conscription wielding Warden...and I REALLY suck at grabbing great moments like this.
Damn I am bitten by the green eyed monster this morning on the two points...

[Emerald Melios]

If I might ask, what's that pretty dagger Duncan has in that scene? I don't recall seeing him equipped with that as City Elf or Magi......

[sylvanaerie]

Emerald Melios wrote...

If I might ask, what's that pretty dagger Duncan has in that scene? I don't recall seeing him equipped with that as City Elf or Magi......

The poster is running IA.  It could be a recolor of Duncan's dagger.  One of the hazards of removing IA mid game is a lot of the NPCs suddenly are naked and unarmed as it changes a lot of the little things in the game like that.

*headdesk* its still too early even with 2 cups of Earl Gray in me.  IA = Improved Atmosphere mod

http://www.dragonage...file.php?id=577

Link to it there if you are curious.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 14 mai 2010 - 01:30 .

[SurelyForth]

I think we need some Ser Pouce-a-landers in here to revive this thread:


And, um, flamey NBA:

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 mai 2010 - 02:12 .

[errant_knight]

sylvanaerie wrote...

To me it does. Fanboy or not I don't think Cailan would have known about this. The Joining is/appears to be blood magic. And we all know how everyone views that in this world... Cailan and Duncan weren't that close that Duncan would share something like that with him. He won't even tell the new recruits who are about to possibly DIE what's going on till he has them in the old temple. I just don't see him leaking this info out to a complete moron even if he is a fanboy NOT if he would KILL someone to keep from spreading the information.

Top of page...hmmm I think this is rather fitting...I want some answers Bioware...

I haven't seen this dialogue. What's going on?

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...

I haven't seen this dialogue. What's going on?

That's "Let's gossip about our companions!" dialogue. If you're in a relationship with him, you can needle him about being jealous of Zevran.

Top of the page. My access to pictures is uber-limited, so creepy flamey smiling NBM it is!

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 mai 2010 - 02:23 .