60083 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sure. So Alistair's action is purely selfish and is not based on any real objective and impartial pragmatism and any sense of justice.

It's reasonable self-preservation -- kill the man who has track record of actively attempting to kill you and your friends. I still don't quite grasp why he's being lambasted for this, nor why it's not "justice". You can argue this is justice in old sense of the word (eye for an eye) but, well. Ferelden isn't exactly 21st century environment.

EDIT: Oh and those who set traps for Warden supporters in the Pearl are Howe's elites. Riordan was captured and tortured by Howe as well. Howe was a clear enemy of the Wardens.  

The elites die for their actions. Riordan was captured and tortured but not actually killed. You're making case here Howe was more pragmatic and less bloodthirsty than Loghain, more of a reason to keep him alive

Modifié par tmp7704, 18 mai 2010 - 04:39 .

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

KoP, about your edit, what's to say that Howe doesn't lie and say that he believed Loghain and thought that the Wardens had betrayed the king? Torturing "the enemy" isn't exactly uncommon.

If he believes Howe over Eamon and others. then meeh.
Why didn't he believe that Loghain thought he was doing what was best for Ferelden? Of course he does not care what's best for Ferelden.

But what Loghain was doing was obviously not best for Ferelden. He was starting a civil war. Howe could have been following orders. Who are you more likely to believe, a potientially corrupt man who runs a crime ring in Denerim or someone who caused the death of the King of Ferelden and carelessly left everyone at Ostagar to die? And we are assuming Alistair did all the side quests we did, that revealed he was involved in that stuff. He could have done exactly as he suggested, gone straight to Redcliffe.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
Alistair doesn't know Howe was behind Loghain's schemes. He only has the word of the would-be queen who is trying to steal the throne from him and Riordan.

Also, we don't even know if he encountered Howe. He may have decided not to save Anora and never even saw Howe.

So he doesn't even bother investigating about Ferelden's political predicament, and learning about the people he spares and kills at his whims. Still an idiot.
And if he is considering making himself king with that attitude and incompetence, then I am glad the darkspawn will burn Ferelden to the ground.

Overall I am happy. The DLC showed him as he is, without the PC.

Now I must go to university. Cheers!

[errant_knight]

KoP, why are you speaking as though this DLC has worth, meaning, or any kind of conceptual integrity? It's a straight across the board negation of the game, without thought about any character except the PC. And I know you know this....

[LadyDamodred]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's weird when you also have no problem sparing the man that was his second and was behind most of his actions.

Howe didn't personally try to kill Alistair, nor was he the one to actively betray the king etc. You can charge him with the slaver deal probably and the Highever (which is somewhat murky given Couslands had rebelled against the Howes in the first place) but well, i can see why Alistair could be more inclined to spare this guy. They don't have personal point of conflict.

The Couslands didn't rebel against the Howes, unless you go back several hundred years.  And I don't think that counts anymore.  :x

Like I said, this is AU.  Clearly, things do not play out the same way they do in DAO.  *looks at werewolves*  Things are set up to give the players "treats".  And even in the regular game, what happens to Riordan is placed at Loghain's feet.  *shrugs*  I can't use this to support any character analysis b/c the point is that things are supposed to be different.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
The elites die for their actions. Riordan was captured and tortured but not actually killed. You're making case here Howe was more pragmatic and less bloodthirsty than Loghain, more of a reason to keep him alive

Torturing someone for your amusement has nothing pragmatic about it. So no. Killing Riordan would have been the pragmatic choice. Not torturing him and then kill him.

Anyways, gotta run.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
Alistair doesn't know Howe was behind Loghain's schemes. He only has the word of the would-be queen who is trying to steal the throne from him and Riordan.

Also, we don't even know if he encountered Howe. He may have decided not to save Anora and never even saw Howe.

So he doesn't even bother investigating about Ferelden's political predicament, and learning about the people he spares and kills at his whims. Still an idiot.
And if he is considering making himself king with that attitude and incompetence, then I am glad the darkspawn will burn Ferelden to the ground.

Overall I am happy. The DLC showed him as he is, without the PC.

Now I must go to university. Cheers!

Investigating Ferelden's political climate while the darkspawn are knocking on their door? That's a hell of a time to deal with political things. Loghain is an immediate threat, Howe would be a nusance later on at most.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
The elites die for their actions. Riordan was captured and tortured but not actually killed. You're making case here Howe was more pragmatic and less bloodthirsty than Loghain, more of a reason to keep him alive

Torturing someone for your amusement has nothing pragmatic about it. So no. Killing Riordan would have been the pragmatic choice. Not torturing him and then kill him.

Anyways, gotta run.

Torturing him to get info on why the Grey Wardens might have fled the battle and if the other Wardens were involved or knew anything about it.

And I agree with one of the previous posters, I have no idea why we are arguing about this.

[tmp7704]

LadyDamodred wrote...

The Couslands didn't rebel against the Howes, unless you go back several hundred years.  And I don't think that counts anymore.  :x

I think it can still count for the Howes on some level... especially when Highever used to be part of their lands and now it isn't, reminding them every day with its presence about the old grudge. Even more if the Couslands then get more of the spotlight, that only adds to the insult

[LadyDamodred]

Indeed. Let us cease and desist. Alternate Universe it meant to imply things are wrong.



I'd rather go with Bizarro Universe. Quick, someone make a mod to Alistair can have a little black goatee!

[Kryyptehk]

tmp7704 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

The Couslands didn't rebel against the Howes, unless you go back several hundred years.  And I don't think that counts anymore.  :x

I think it can still count for the Howes on some level... especially when Highever used to be part of their lands and now it isn't, reminding them every day with its presence about the old grudge. Even more if the Couslands then get more of the spotlight, that only adds to the insult

Technically their land was the Couslands anyway. They were an arldome to their terynir. If they were fighting for the other side of the conflict, it was the Couslands' right to take the land back.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Torturing someone for your amusement has nothing pragmatic about it. So no. Killing Riordan would have been the pragmatic choice. Not torturing him and then kill him.

I doubt it's for the amusement. More likely it was an attempt to make him spill the beans about content of Grey Warden papers Howe got from him (and which you recover) Obviously, killing Riordan would be hardly helpful in deciphering these secrets.

[LadyDamodred]

tmp7704 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

The Couslands didn't rebel against the Howes, unless you go back several hundred years.  And I don't think that counts anymore.  :x

I think it can still count for the Howes on some level... especially when Highever used to be part of their lands and now it isn't, reminding them every day with its presence about the old grudge. Even more if the Couslands then get more of the spotlight, that only adds to the insult

Yes, but holding a grudge for hundreds of years doesn't make the realities of the current situation murkier.  If it were brought up in a politcal discussion, it would be meaningless.  Howe's act was an naked act of agrression, and I think it had far more to do with the fact that he personally did not rise as high as he thought he should have after the war with Orlais.

[Kryyptehk]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Torturing someone for your amusement has nothing pragmatic about it. So no. Killing Riordan would have been the pragmatic choice. Not torturing him and then kill him.

I doubt it's for the amusement. More likely it was an attempt to make him spill the beans about content of Grey Warden papers Howe got from him (and which you recover) Obviously, killing Riordan would be hardly helpful in deciphering these secrets.

Well, knowing Howe, it probably was mostly for amusement. But again, Alistair wouldn't know that.

And that is all I have to say on that subject.

[sylvanaerie]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Indeed. Let us cease and desist. Alternate Universe it meant to imply things are wrong.

I'd rather go with Bizarro Universe. Quick, someone make a mod to Alistair can have a little black goatee!

We could give him a beard...MirrorUniverse Spock had a beard.

Still no amount of justification is going to induce me to buy this drek...

[Kryyptehk]

sylvanaerie wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Indeed. Let us cease and desist. Alternate Universe it meant to imply things are wrong.

I'd rather go with Bizarro Universe. Quick, someone make a mod to Alistair can have a little black goatee!

We could give him a beard...MirrorUniverse Spock had a beard.

Still no amount of justification is going to induce me to buy this drek...

Agreed

[LadyDamodred]

I will post videos for you, syl! All of the pain, none of the cost! Except maybe tiny pieces of your soul.

[sylvanaerie]

I won't even watch em. Sorry Lady D lalalalala not listening!



Am listening to my Celtic CD and writing a new fic...With TEEEEAGAN!!

[LadyDamodred]

Fine, screenshots then.

Celtic, eh?  I has a fair amount of that.  I really like some of the songs from Celtic Woman, in addition to all the insturmental stuff I have.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 18 mai 2010 - 04:52 .

[tmp7704]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Technically their land was the Couslands anyway. They were an arldome to their terynir. If they were fighting for the other side of the conflict, it was the Couslands' right to take the land back.

No, the Couslands became teyrns during the Black Age. The rebellion happened during the Age of Towers, which was the one that predated the Black Age.

[sylvanaerie]

Screenshots maybe as they would be in the thread here and I have no choice but to see em. Be sure to include some Teagan for the damage you are going to do to my innocent soul...

[Kryyptehk]

tmp7704 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Technically their land was the Couslands anyway. They were an arldome to their terynir. If they were fighting for the other side of the conflict, it was the Couslands' right to take the land back.

No, the Couslands became teyrns during the Black Age. The rebellion happened during the Age of Towers, which was the one that predated the Black Age.

I thought it was when the Howes supported Orlais?

[LadyDamodred]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Screenshots maybe as they would be in the thread here and I have no choice but to see em. Be sure to include some Teagan for the damage you are going to do to my innocent soul...

I'll make a video of the Alistair/Teagan sammich from the Pearl.  That fair enough?

[sylvanaerie]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Fine, screenshots then.

Celtic, eh?  I has a fair amount of that.  I really like some of the songs from Celtic Woman, in addition to all the insturmental stuff I have.

I love Celtic music.  esp when I am writing.  And this CD fits Teagan, its going to be a sweet PC/Teagan romance after the events of the game.  Chapter one is done already.

LOL and no its not "Immediately jumps to Teagan/Alistair sammiches"  In fact this PC will hvae broken up with Al "for the good of Ferelden" so no sammiches in her near future.  Not much tent time in her near future either as I want to set up the situation.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 18 mai 2010 - 04:56 .

[LadyDamodred]

Kryyptehk wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Technically their land was the Couslands anyway. They were an arldome to their terynir. If they were fighting for the other side of the conflict, it was the Couslands' right to take the land back.

No, the Couslands became teyrns during the Black Age. The rebellion happened during the Age of Towers, which was the one that predated the Black Age.

I thought it was when the Howes supported Orlais?

Correct.  The Couslands did not rebel against the Howes, as the Couslands were above the Howes in rank.  The Howes originally allied with the Orlesians, damned traitors, and the Couslands took some of their land during the war.

Edit:  Oh my god!  Why do I keep getting ToP when I has no screenshots?!  *rages*

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 18 mai 2010 - 04:55 .