60083 réponses à ce sujet

[Gilsa]

Time for me to watch Glee/The Good Wife/and one other show I'm forgetting is on tonight! =p (Law and Order: Criminal Intent, I think?)

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's different. Female circumcision is useless. Male circumcision is not and is beneficial. Further, male circumcision is a religious duty, expected by parents to perform. Female circumcision is not, despite the fact that some idiots who know nothign about the religion they are talkign about claim that it is.

We don't really ask the opinion of kids when we give them the vaccine. So logn as it's beneficial health wise, it's fine.

Vaccine is very different. The risk of deadly, communicable disease is far more common and dangerous than the potential problems of being uncirumcised. The vast majority of uncircumcised men go through life with few problems.

[Kryyptehk]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I agree but I say we all drop the subject, given the fact this is serious argument fodder. I've been on forums where people left the site because of arguments about circumcision. I'm wary discussing it.

What a silly reason.

Have you ever been on a parenting forum? Yeah, people are supportive up until you disagree with their parenting decisions, even politely. There are more arguments there than in politic forums.

[mellifera]

MAAAAARRRRRRRRMMMMMMAAAAAALLLLLLLAAAAADDDDDEEEEEE

[sabreene]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So you would rather have them experience it as adults? Ewww.

Naa, I am glad my parents made that choice for me. And so will my children when I will make the choice for them.

I think the idea is to let the adult make decision about their body for themselves.

Some parents also make decision for their girls that it's beneficial to have their clitoris (or part of it) removed when they're little, too. It's a pretty similar procedure, and somehow i doubt these girls are very glad about that...

Except that in the article it says clearly that "this procedure in whatever form it is practiced is not
at all analogous to male circumcision and so the term
'female circumcision' gave way to the term 'female genital mutilation'" "

So it's not actually female circumcision, it's mutilation.

Modifié par sabreene, 19 mai 2010 - 04:46 .

[Kryyptehk]

yukidama wrote...

MAAAAARRRRRRRRMMMMMMAAAAAALLLLLLLAAAAADDDDDEEEEEE

Nooooooooooobody messes with him! Noooooooooooooooobody!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's different. Female circumcision is useless. Male circumcision is not and is beneficial. Further, male circumcision is a religious duty, expected by parents to perform. Female circumcision is not, despite the fact that some idiots who know nothign about the religion they are talkign about claim that it is.

We don't really ask the opinion of kids when we give them the vaccine. So logn as it's beneficial health wise, it's fine.

Vaccine is very different. The risk of deadly, communicable disease is far more common and dangerous than the potential problems of being uncirumcised. The vast majority of uncircumcised men go through life with few problems.

The concept is the same.
If it's beneficial health wise, we do not have to ask for the permission of kids. As parents, the health of their children is their responsability.

[Herr Uhl]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I agree but I say we all drop the subject, given the fact this is serious argument fodder. I've been on forums where people left the site because of arguments about circumcision. I'm wary discussing it.

What a silly reason.

Have you ever been on a parenting forum? Yeah, people are supportive up until you disagree with their parenting decisions, even politely. There are more arguments there than in politic forums.

No, I have not. Good to know.

[cmessaz]

When does Teagan say marmalade? I haven't heard it.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's different. Female circumcision is useless. Male circumcision is not and is beneficial.

Considering we don't even know (as this thread evidences) why the practice was started in the first place, i'd argue these alleged benefits are vague at best. "Because this way you don't get sand in these places" has little benefit in cultures which had moved on by thousands of years and thousands of kms from the egyptian deserts. I suppose you can make argument that's supposedly a commandment in Judaism but well, that's not exactly big part of world population on the whole and shouldn't have impact outside of that group, imo.

Personally i see it mostly as customary thing -- a parent wants his boy be just like himself and/or his dad, and so in some circles it's passed from generation to generation without much thought. Pity the kids, though.

[sabreene]

Cme, I'm home now. Did you still want Anderstair?

[sabreene]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's different. Female circumcision is useless. Male circumcision is not and is beneficial.

Considering we don't even know (as this thread evidences) why the practice was started in the first place, i'd argue these alleged benefits are vague at best. "Because this way you don't get sand in these places" has little benefit in cultures which had moved on by thousands of years and thousands of kms from the egyptian deserts. I suppose you can make argument that's supposedly a commandment in Judaism but well, that's not exactly big part of world population on the whole and shouldn't have impact outside of that group, imo.

Personally i see it mostly as customary thing -- a parent wants his boy be just like himself and/or his dad, and so in some circles it's passed from generation to generation without much thought. Pity the kids, though.

I do agree with this -- it does seem customary. My sister decided not to do it to my nephew and people were aghast. Turns out it was a good thing she didn't -- Turned out he had hemophilia (spontaneous mutation, didn't run in the family) and had she done it... well, let's just say it wouldn't have been a good thing.

[Herr Uhl]

This discussion makes me think of Seinfeld.

[sabreene]

Gilsa wrote...

Time for me to watch Glee/The Good Wife/and one other show I'm forgetting is on tonight! =p (Law and Order: Criminal Intent, I think?)

<3Glee

[mellifera]

cmessaz wrote...

When does Teagan say marmalade? I haven't heard it.

PC: I came here to help, if I could.
Connor: To help me? To help Father? To help yourself? Which?
PC: To help the people you've terrorized.
Connor: I was just having fun! Everyone else had fun too! Are you having fun, Uncle?
Teagan: Marmalade!

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's different. Female circumcision is useless. Male circumcision is not and is beneficial.

Considering we don't even know (as this thread evidences) why the practice was started in the first place, i'd argue these alleged benefits are vague at best. "Because this way you don't get sand in these places" has little benefit in cultures which had moved on by thousands of years and thousands of kms from the egyptian deserts. I suppose you can make argument that's supposedly a commandment in Judaism but well, that's not exactly big part of world population on the whole and shouldn't have impact outside of that group, imo.

There is a difference between knowing why and how a practise started thousands of years ago and knowing the health benefits it provides, which are clear, as was evidenced in this thread (Skadi in particular). There are health benefits to the practise. 

And where did I say that the practise has to be imposed on non-Jewish and non-Muslim (and non-Greek Orthodox) communities? We really couldn't care less lol  
But if parents regardless of creed see the health benefits, they are entitled to make that choice on behalf of their children.

[tmp7704]

sabreene wrote...

Except that in the article it says clearly that "this procedure in whatever form it is practiced is not
at all analogous to male circumcision and so the term
'female circumcision' gave way to the term 'female genital mutilation'" "

So it's not actually female circumcision, it's mutilation.

Well, that article also says:

Toubia argued, in 1995, that the term female circumcision "implies a fallacious analogy to nonmutilating male circumcision, in which the foreskin is cut off from the tip of the penis without damaging the organ itself."[23] However, in the 1999 book Male and Female Circumcision, Toubia states that she agrees that "circumcision — that is, the genital mutilation of girls and boys — is wrong despite its widespread practice."

This seems to me like case of someone who eventually recognizes that something they initially considered different to be actually not different after all. Or at least similar enough to warrant the same term.

[Sarah1281]

yukidama wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

When does Teagan say marmalade? I haven't heard it.

PC: I came here to help, if I could.
Connor: To help me? To help Father? To help yourself? Which?
PC: To help the people you've terrorized.
Connor: I was just having fun! Everyone else had fun too! Are you having fun, Uncle?
Teagan: Marmalade!

I  Teagan.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The concept is the same.
If it's beneficial health wise, we do not have to ask for the permission of kids. As parents, the health of their children is their responsability.

The degree of benefit vs the nature of a procedure does factor in, though. There is not a massive bonus in circumcision compared to vaccination, and vaccination does not involve permanently altering a person's body. I know most European medical groups do not consider it offering enough benefit to suggest it on a massive scale of elective snips, whereas vaccination is considered vital to avoid deadly and highly infectious diseases that threaten the whole of the population.

Medical authorites tend to disagree alot on the subject of circumcision and it's benefits, where as the majority are in agreement on the necessity of vaccination.

[Kryyptehk]

tmp7704 wrote...

sabreene wrote...

Except that in the article it says clearly that "this procedure in whatever form it is practiced is not
at all analogous to male circumcision and so the term
'female circumcision' gave way to the term 'female genital mutilation'" "

So it's not actually female circumcision, it's mutilation.

Well, that article also says:

Toubia argued, in 1995, that the term female circumcision "implies a fallacious analogy to nonmutilating male circumcision, in which the foreskin is cut off from the tip of the penis without damaging the organ itself."[23] However, in the 1999 book Male and Female Circumcision, Toubia states that she agrees that "circumcision — that is, the genital mutilation of girls and boys — is wrong despite its widespread practice."

This seems to me like case of someone who eventually recognizes that something they initially considered different to be actually not different after all. Or at least similar enough to warrant the same term.

There IS a difference between female circumcision and mutilation. I knew a woman who in her adult years, got her hood removed to increase sexual sensitivity. Mutilation has no benefit whatsoever.

Argh, I'm not talking about this anymore. KoP can argue about it, since I've agreed with everything he has said so far, until he says something I don't agree with

Modifié par Kryyptehk, 19 mai 2010 - 05:01 .

[LadyDamodred]

yukidama wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

When does Teagan say marmalade? I haven't heard it.

PC: I came here to help, if I could.
Connor: To help me? To help Father? To help yourself? Which?
PC: To help the people you've terrorized.
Connor: I was just having fun! Everyone else had fun too! Are you having fun, Uncle?
Teagan: Marmalade!

lol, never done that.

[Kryyptehk]

LadyDamodred wrote...

yukidama wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

When does Teagan say marmalade? I haven't heard it.

PC: I came here to help, if I could.
Connor: To help me? To help Father? To help yourself? Which?
PC: To help the people you've terrorized.
Connor: I was just having fun! Everyone else had fun too! Are you having fun, Uncle?
Teagan: Marmalade!

lol, never done that.

I've only done that once before, usually I choose that I'm looking for Arl Eamon.

[cmessaz]

LadyDamodred wrote...

yukidama wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

When does Teagan say marmalade? I haven't heard it.

PC: I came here to help, if I could.
Connor: To help me? To help Father? To help yourself? Which?
PC: To help the people you've terrorized.
Connor: I was just having fun! Everyone else had fun too! Are you having fun, Uncle?
Teagan: Marmalade!

lol, never done that.

I've never said that. I learn something new every day. Including what a ball slap dance is.

[Kryyptehk]

cmessaz wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

yukidama wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

When does Teagan say marmalade? I haven't heard it.

PC: I came here to help, if I could.
Connor: To help me? To help Father? To help yourself? Which?
PC: To help the people you've terrorized.
Connor: I was just having fun! Everyone else had fun too! Are you having fun, Uncle?
Teagan: Marmalade!

lol, never done that.

I've never said that. I learn something new every day. Including what a ball slap dance is.

Yeah, even after several playthroughs, I find I'm stilling finding out about options I didn't take.

[tmp7704]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Argh, I'm not talking about this anymore. KoP can argue about it, since I've agreed with everything he has said so far, until he says something I don't agree with

Nah i'm dropping it too.  Was planning to turn in a while ago anyway, plus this is a seriosuly loaded issue, you're probably right it's not a good idea to go on with discussing this.

edit: grr top of page again. Here Alistair places himself in a curious way.

Modifié par tmp7704, 19 mai 2010 - 05:07 .