119 réponses à ce sujet

[Bucky_McLachlan]

PTPR wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 Ok, let me start of by saying I am not homicidal, I work within the bounds of the law.  I want to see dead children in ME3.  Many have said that their is a noticeable lack of children (and women) in the ME universe and that at least the latter is wanted.  I want to see dead children because if they did it right it would give me a reason to fight other than Self-preservation.  If I saw the bodies of a small family with children lying in front of a wall that was covered in blood I would be angry.  The next enemy I saw would know it too.  If I came to a colony that was under attack and I saw a woman crying while holding the head of her dead child (still attached) in her lap I would feel for her.  I'd dedicate my next firefight to her for the purpose of avenging that child.

In the immortal words of Grunt, "It makes me want to fight, not just able to."  I think it would add depth to an engagement beyond self-preservation.  An emotional reason to kill the bad guys that is tangible, real, and somewhat painful.  So please Bioware, put dead children in ME3.

Ol' Yeller and now children. You people are horrible!
Seriously: I don't know. It would make me more motivated but I doubt EA would allow it.

I guess you didn't play Dead Space or that sh*tty God of War (not that GOW isn't sh*tty) ripoff.

[RenownedRyan]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I'm not asking for dialog with children, I thought it was out of place in Fallout 3.  I'm also not asking for a paragon action, just something passive.  Something the player sees but can't change. 

I agree. Especially the children in Little Lamplight.  That was flat out stupid. 

Personally, dead children wouldn't make me offended at BioWare, but it would anger me against the enemy like you said.  But I just am pointing out that BioWare will probably not go there, since the backlash would be fierce (Fox is probably still looking for a chance at redemption) and many players would be offended.

[Internet Kraken]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...



Meh, I think people are both over and under estimating the impact that a dead child could have on the player. I feel like a dead child affects the player because it's refreshing, as perverted as that sounds. We're so used to seeing generic npc #3,763 come screaming for Shepard's help for all kinds of reasons, so the audience has become dulled to the impact. A dead child is farther from our comfort zone than most of us would like, so it has more impact.



At the same time, I see this more as a request for "more emotional depth" from npcs. Dead children are not the only way to make the player feel a sense of loss or responsibility; it's just that more effort/thought is needed for npcs to be done right.

But that's just lazy story telling. If you can't make the player care about some characters because there just generic NPCs, putting children in is a poor way to solve the problem. I'm reminded of some comic (Countdown I think), in which a pregnant women is killed for no reason other than to make the story feel more "serious" and "dark". But it's just tasteless and doesn't solve the problem of the story being bad to begin with.

[Nostradamoose]

Remember: Cutting the intestines of zombie babies is deemed OK by FOX, because they haven't talked about it. Side-boobs : Evil

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Collider wrote...

Kraken has a good point. While children may be motivating to some, the fact that thousands of innocent people are being abducted and turned into paste should be enough to motivate you against the Collectors.

I can see it adding drama and emotion to the game.  Kind of like watching a movie or documentary about war, but I don't see Bioware doing it.

Mordin's conversation is a perfect instance to reference in order to understand why knowing that people are being killed and seeing it are two totally different things.  When a person isn't confronted with it the dead become a statistic, nameless, faceless statistics.  Knowing that children were killed and seeing it are two different things.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Sajuro wrote...

They would have to be careful about it, even showing dead children would get Fox News and family groups frothing at the mouth. My suggestion would be to show a cut scene before the mission with children playing in a house and then the attack. They could show the enemies bursting in and pulling a firing squad on the occupants of the house. It would be diminished impact, but showing dead children would definitely rocket the killer to complete monster status.

All the more reason to put an bullet in his head. *Shrugs*

As for the crew... I rescue them, but they are my crew, of course I am going to get them out. To be honest, Had I walked though that colony while explaining it and seen an seeker swarm had paralyzed an family.... differently reaction entirely other than "save these colonist and kill things." I personally think the graphic level it is at right now is perfectly good, but to be honest, there is so many ways around the issue of child violence like people have suggested, an child covered by an blanket with wailing parents etc etc... the general chatter of children in the citadel or on Illium, I mean i know we got access to limited areas in both but it felt kindof out of place, even on omega.

[RenownedRyan]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

If they did that then they would get their asses handed to them again on national television.  As it stands it seems like they learned their lesson several years ago.  And it doesn't warrant an AO rating, it is just like any other dead person, charred form that we see, only this time it is a child.  

Except that in this case Fox News would actually have a case, not just be making radical accusations.  Besides that, you really consider a child the same as any other dead body?  I mean, if this is the case why would it help to make you more motivated?  The bottom line is this.  Dead children are different.  Children are helpless of defending themselves.  This is the reason for the problem with creating them.  It really takes nothing from the game besides realism.  Children added nothing to games like Dragon Age, Fallout, and I never even have kids in the Sims.  

From a moral standpoint, dead children are different, but from a ratings standpoint, I can't see them changing the rating over a few child sized corpses.  Not when plenty of M rated games have you actually killing children, like Bioshock and Dead Space.  I obviously know that dead children are different or else I wouldn't be calling for it to motivate the player.  But I just can't see ME3 being AO just because it has some dramatic instances of dead children, I just can't.

You're right, and I never thought the game would be rated AO.  ESRB would not have any case for this, especially when scenes in other games definitely warrant this rating more than your suggestion would (see the unbaptised babies scene in Dante's Inferno, also an EA release).

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Internet Kraken wrote...

But that's just lazy story telling. If you can't make the player care about some characters because there just generic NPCs, putting children in is a poor way to solve the problem. I'm reminded of some comic (Countdown I think), in which a pregnant women is killed for no reason other than to make the story feel more "serious" and "dark". But it's just tasteless and doesn't solve the problem of the story being bad to begin with.

It's lazy, but the truth is it affects us more. I would say even the pregnant woman doesn't have the same kind of impact as a child. If our goal is emotional depth, the best result would be Bioware putting more time/effort into developing npcs we can empathize with. Barring that, I can understand why people are requesting children in the game. It's still an improvement/refreshing over your standard generic npc calling for help in terms of resonating with the player.

This is also taking into account the medium we are using. A dead child in a movie doesn't affect me personally in the way that it will in an RPG, where the goal is to get 'in touch' with the character.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 11 avril 2010 - 03:40 .

[scxenophobe]

I want to be able to kick puppies and what not.

[Internet Kraken]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...



But that's just lazy story telling. If you can't make the player care about some characters because there just generic NPCs, putting children in is a poor way to solve the problem. I'm reminded of some comic (Countdown I think), in which a pregnant women is killed for no reason other than to make the story feel more "serious" and "dark". But it's just tasteless and doesn't solve the problem of the story being bad to begin with.

It's lazy, but the truth is it affects us more. I would say even the pregnant woman doesn't have the same kind of impact as a child. If our goal is emotional depth, the best result would be Bioware putting more time/effort into developing npcs we can empathize with. Barring that, I can understand why people are requesting children in the game. It's still an improvement/refreshing over your standard generic npc calling for help in terms of resonating with the player.

Well that's my point. I think BioWare should focus on developing NPCs more so that they don't need to use the cheap trick of killing children to motivate us. It's just something that is so easy to screw up and it would just feel out of place, like BioWare has just put this one kid in the game just to kill them.



But motivation isn't even a problem for me. The Collectors turning humans into a Reaper is enough for me to want to stop them. I don't get why people feel the need for dead children.Again, I don't think the media would even care about this. I bet BioWare just doesn't feel the need for it.

[GuardianAngel470]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

But that's just lazy story telling. If you can't make the player care about some characters because there just generic NPCs, putting children in is a poor way to solve the problem. I'm reminded of some comic (Countdown I think), in which a pregnant women is killed for no reason other than to make the story feel more "serious" and "dark". But it's just tasteless and doesn't solve the problem of the story being bad to begin with.

It's lazy, but the truth is it affects us more. I would say even the pregnant woman doesn't have the same kind of impact as a child. If our goal is emotional depth, the best result would be Bioware putting more time/effort into developing npcs we can empathize with. Barring that, I can understand why people are requesting children in the game. It's still an improvement/refreshing over your standard generic npc calling for help in terms of resonating with the player.

I think you are both misunderstanding my request.  I'm not asking for Child NPCs, not unless you consider the dancers in The Dark Star NPCs.  I'm just saying on missions where you are repelling an invasion of Reaper forces, you see as you progress through the level families killed in their homes, a mother wailing in the streets over the corpse of her child, visual and auditory stimuli that engages you in the event.

[PTPR]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

PTPR wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 Ok, let me start of by saying I am not homicidal, I work within the bounds of the law.  I want to see dead children in ME3.  Many have said that their is a noticeable lack of children (and women) in the ME universe and that at least the latter is wanted.  I want to see dead children because if they did it right it would give me a reason to fight other than Self-preservation.  If I saw the bodies of a small family with children lying in front of a wall that was covered in blood I would be angry.  The next enemy I saw would know it too.  If I came to a colony that was under attack and I saw a woman crying while holding the head of her dead child (still attached) in her lap I would feel for her.  I'd dedicate my next firefight to her for the purpose of avenging that child.

In the immortal words of Grunt, "It makes me want to fight, not just able to."  I think it would add depth to an engagement beyond self-preservation.  An emotional reason to kill the bad guys that is tangible, real, and somewhat painful.  So please Bioware, put dead children in ME3.

Ol' Yeller and now children. You people are horrible!
Seriously: I don't know. It would make me more motivated but I doubt EA would allow it.

I guess you didn't play Dead Space or that sh*tty God of War (not that GOW isn't sh*tty) ripoff.

Horror game, Zombie children, and I probably haven't.

[GuardianAngel470]

Internet Kraken wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

But that's just lazy story telling. If you can't make the player care about some characters because there just generic NPCs, putting children in is a poor way to solve the problem. I'm reminded of some comic (Countdown I think), in which a pregnant women is killed for no reason other than to make the story feel more "serious" and "dark". But it's just tasteless and doesn't solve the problem of the story being bad to begin with.

It's lazy, but the truth is it affects us more. I would say even the pregnant woman doesn't have the same kind of impact as a child. If our goal is emotional depth, the best result would be Bioware putting more time/effort into developing npcs we can empathize with. Barring that, I can understand why people are requesting children in the game. It's still an improvement/refreshing over your standard generic npc calling for help in terms of resonating with the player.

Well that's my point. I think BioWare should focus on developing NPCs more so that they don't need to use the cheap trick of killing children to motivate us. It's just something that is so easy to screw up and it would just feel out of place, like BioWare has just put this one kid in the game just to kill them.

But motivation isn't even a problem for me. The Collectors turning humans into a Reaper is enough for me to want to stop them. I don't get why people feel the need for dead children.Again, I don't think the media would even care about this. I bet BioWare just doesn't feel the need for it.

I'm motivated to stop the Reapers regardless, don't misunderstand me.  Those guys will go down.  I'm just remembering Horizon, a colony that was under attack with hundreds of people taken already, and I felt no emotion for the faceless colonists.  I wasn't angry that the collectors had attacked, I wasn't sorry for anyone there, I felt nothing.  That's bad and it means Bioware did something wrong.  To feel no emotion at a time like that is bad, and lazy.

And before you say that I'm just an unfeeling person, know that I am very empathetic.  If others are sad, I am sad. If others are angry, I am angry. If others are happy, I smile and am happy.  I don't lack for empathy.

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Collider wrote...

Kraken has a good point. While children may be motivating to some, the fact that thousands of innocent people are being abducted and turned into paste should be enough to motivate you against the Collectors.

I can see it adding drama and emotion to the game.  Kind of like watching a movie or documentary about war, but I don't see Bioware doing it.

Mordin's conversation is a perfect instance to reference in order to understand why knowing that people are being killed and seeing it are two totally different things.  When a person isn't confronted with it the dead become a statistic, nameless, faceless statistics.  Knowing that children were killed and seeing it are two different things.

If it was done the right way, then I probably wouldn't have a problem with it.  It probably is a little too much for them to do though.

You're probably right, but I would like it nonetheless.

[jlb524]

I'm not opposed to the OP's idea, though it might be too much maturity for the shiny-happy family oriented ME games.

[Internet Kraken]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

But that's just lazy story telling. If you can't make the player care about some characters because there just generic NPCs, putting children in is a poor way to solve the problem. I'm reminded of some comic (Countdown I think), in which a pregnant women is killed for no reason other than to make the story feel more "serious" and "dark". But it's just tasteless and doesn't solve the problem of the story being bad to begin with.

It's lazy, but the truth is it affects us more. I would say even the pregnant woman doesn't have the same kind of impact as a child. If our goal is emotional depth, the best result would be Bioware putting more time/effort into developing npcs we can empathize with. Barring that, I can understand why people are requesting children in the game. It's still an improvement/refreshing over your standard generic npc calling for help in terms of resonating with the player.

Well that's my point. I think BioWare should focus on developing NPCs more so that they don't need to use the cheap trick of killing children to motivate us. It's just something that is so easy to screw up and it would just feel out of place, like BioWare has just put this one kid in the game just to kill them.

But motivation isn't even a problem for me. The Collectors turning humans into a Reaper is enough for me to want to stop them. I don't get why people feel the need for dead children.Again, I don't think the media would even care about this. I bet BioWare just doesn't feel the need for it.

I'm motivated to stop the Reapers regardless, don't misunderstand me.  Those guys will go down.  I'm just remembering Horizon, a colony that was under attack with hundreds of people taken already, and I felt no emotion for the faceless colonists.  I wasn't angry that the collectors had attacked, I wasn't sorry for anyone there, I felt nothing.  That's bad and it means Bioware did something wrong.  To feel no emotion at a time like that is bad, and lazy.

And before you say that I'm just an unfeeling person, know that I am very empathetic.  If others are sad, I am sad. If others are angry, I am angry. If others are happy, I smile and am happy.  I don't lack for empathy.

My point still stands. If you felt nothing for the colonists, then BioWare needs to fix that. But they shouldn't fix that with child death, becuase that's just lazy and doesn't adress the root problem of not feeling anything for the NPCs.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I want to see dead children because if they did it right it would give me a reason to fight other than Self-preservation.  If I saw the bodies of a small family with children lying in front of a wall that was covered in blood I would be angry. 

Feeling anger over dead children is the instinct of self-preservation at work. But if you need that to invoke the instinct, while knowing about the Reapers, it means your instinct is weak. Besides, you saw the piles of colonists' deformed bodies on the Collector ship. Who says there weren't any kids?

[Collider]

Kraken is right. If we need children in order to be against the collectors and feel motivated to stop them, Bioware is doing something very wrong in their writing and cutscenes.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Well that's my point. I think BioWare should focus on developing NPCs more so that they don't need to use the cheap trick of killing children to motivate us. It's just something that is so easy to screw up and it would just feel out of place, like BioWare has just put this one kid in the game just to kill them.

But motivation isn't even a problem for me. The Collectors turning humans into a Reaper is enough for me to want to stop them. I don't get why people feel the need for dead children.Again, I don't think the media would even care about this. I bet BioWare just doesn't feel the need for it.

Motivation isn't an issue for me either. But as someone pointed out with Mordin, it's an issue of general vs. particular. We may understand that billions of lives are at stake, but it's the particular that affects us. You admitted that although a 'trick' the use of children does work. If Bioware feels the situation warrants a dead child, I approve. If not, I still approve. I'd rather see them do whatever they feel ultimately crafts the most personal experience, regardless of media impact.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 11 avril 2010 - 03:52 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Well that's my point. I think BioWare should focus on developing NPCs more so that they don't need to use the cheap trick of killing children to motivate us. It's just something that is so easy to screw up and it would just feel out of place, like BioWare has just put this one kid in the game just to kill them.

But motivation isn't even a problem for me. The Collectors turning humans into a Reaper is enough for me to want to stop them. I don't get why people feel the need for dead children.Again, I don't think the media would even care about this. I bet BioWare just doesn't feel the need for it.

Motivation isn't an issue for me either. But as someone pointed out with Mordin, it's an issue of general vs. particular. We may understand that billions of lives are at stake, but it's the particular that affects us. You admitted that although a 'trick' the use of children does work. If Bioware feels the situation warrants a dead child, I approve. If not, I still approve. I'd rather see them do whatever they feel ultimately crafts the most personal experience, regardless of media impact.

I agree, motivation isn't an problem here, it's just that it's an faceless statistic, when you see it, it really goes to the core and you understand what it really means. Heck, we're not just talking humans here, we're talking every space-faring race in the GALAXY. Let alone just humans. At this point, it just some statistic for me. Dead/churned up people motivate me, don't get me wrong, but if you go through an scene where an colony is understand full scale attack and people running in oppsite directions as you go forward, or to Evacation shuttles at which some are getting shot down etc etc. It provides an very different mood.

In my opinon, ME2 wasn't even that dark to be honest. 

They can add it or they can not. Be interesting/nice addition to really hit home with however in my opinon. Some may say it's an cheap trick, but it does work.

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not opposed to the OP's idea, though
it might be too much maturity for the shiny-happy family oriented ME
games.

I shudder to think
anyone thinks Mass Effect is family oriented. Both games you have to go into an strip-club and you can do some pretty nasty things that in my opinon- children shouldn't be exposed to. Mass Effect is far from family oriented in my opinon. Fable II is more family oriented then mass effect will ever be.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 11 avril 2010 - 04:03 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I want to see dead children because if they did it right it would give me a reason to fight other than Self-preservation.  If I saw the bodies of a small family with children lying in front of a wall that was covered in blood I would be angry. 

Feeling anger over dead children is the instinct of self-preservation at work. But if you need that to invoke the instinct, while knowing about the Reapers, it means your instinct is weak. Besides, you saw the piles of colonists' deformed bodies on the Collector ship. Who says there weren't any kids?

That's a stretch at best.  I'd say feeling anger at child death is more about ending the life of an innocent child who hasn't had the chance to live yet.  The child's self-preservation maybe, but not shepard's or the galaxy's.  Those were the ones to which I was referring.

[binaryemperor]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
*words* Dead Children *words*

Engineer Donnelly: CAPTAYNE! We'rrrre aprroachin' dangerrrously close to the Moral Event Horizon!  The ehscape velohsity is excedin' the speed of laight!! 

Shepard: What? Avert course NOW!

Engineer Donnelly: I Cahn't doo eet captayne! I DOON'T HAVE THE POWERRRR!

*normandy careens into the M.E.H and implodes into a singularity of pure evil.*

Modifié par binaryemperor, 11 avril 2010 - 04:16 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

binaryemperor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
*words* Dead Children *words*

Engineer Donnelly: CAPTAYNE! We'rrrre aprroachin' dangerrrously close to the Moral Event Horizon!  The ehscape velohsity is excedin' the speed of laight! 

Shepard: What? Avert course NOW!

Engineer Donnelly: I Cahn't doo eet captayne! I DOON'T HAVE THE POWERRRR!

*normandy careens into the M.E.H and implodes into a singularity of pure evil.*

Edit - deleted orginal post due to inserting foot in mouth

Remember kids, Reading is good for you. Don't skim. Read. It is especially good if you read the links throughly.

To be honest- It can be done just fine and to be honest, we all know the reapers are doushebags who want to rape us anyway........ so I doubt they are going to drive on by with flowers coming out of their drive cores.


I do give you +5 rep for that post though. ^^

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 11 avril 2010 - 04:21 .