37 réponses à ce sujet

[BellosTheMighty]

I won an ATI video card in the Bioware Bazaar. I paid in the vicinity of 12,000 tokens for it, which included 4,501 tokens for referrals, which I earned fairly and within the rules. I've heard a lot of people saying over the past week that the bazaar was dominated by cheaters and unfair play, including at least one who made a veiled personal attack on myself. I, however, am convinced that the Bazaar was fair and on the level, and I'd like to take a bit to explain it.

First, let's talk a bit about games and their rules. The "rules" of any game are broadly defined as what all the players and officiants agree to before beginning play. For the Bioware Bazaar, the rules were posted the day the first week opened. Bioware posted them, implicitly agreeing to be bound by them. (And with the option to change the rules or dismiss people from competition as they wish, if memory serves. They seem to have taken it down, so I can't double-check.) By participating, we all agreed to be bound by them as well. Of course, the onus is on us to read and understand the rules first. If we do not agree with the rules, or believe them to be unfair, we always have the option not to play. If we know the rules are unfair to us and for whatever reason decide to play anyway, we accept that we will probably lose.

What I've seen over the past week is a lot of people complaining that the Bazaar is unfair. I have complaints as well, but not with the rules. I read, understood, and accepted the rules going in. My complaints, rather, are with the conduct of the players. You all implicitly agreed to the rules by joining in the game. But now you work yourself up into a furor over the fact that the rules you agreed to are unfair. This is not mature, respectable, adult behavior. This displays childishness, ignorance, and a sense of entitlement the size of Texas. Let me address a few of the comments that irk me in particular:

"It's impossible to win an auction with less than 10,000 tokens." The phrase for this "sour grapes". (Actually, it's  "being a sore loser", but "sour grapes" sounds better.) It boils down to you accusing others of not playing fair when in reality you didn't play well enough to beat them. Yes, nearly everything went for around 9-12K, with the big ticket items costing more. It is perfectly possible to get that many tokens while playing fair. I know this because I did it. Again, the rules have been posted from the start, and you all agreed to them. Don't whine when you didn't do the things that would win the game. In particular, anyone who accumulated less than 6,000 tokens and complains that he doesn't have enough to win anything should not be respected. Getting 6,000 is easy if you've read the rules. If you didn't read the rules, or didn't feel the need to play to win, don't be surprised when you go home empty-handed.

"People who haven't registered a single game are winning." This is true. The quizzes make this perfectly fair. Again: this is in the rules, you agreed to the rules by playing. But more than just that annoys me about this viewpoint. Leave aside the fact that Bioware is legally required to do something like this. Why should the prizes only go to people who registered their games? I, personally, did not register a single game. I don't own any of the three. I do, however, own Baldur's Gate, and the sequel, and the expansion pack to the sequel, and Neverwinter Nights with BOTH expansion packs and a bunch of player-made modules, and Knights of the Old Republic, and the original Mass Effect with both DLC packs. And I wish I could pick up the more recent games. But, you see, some of you might remember that we are only just now coming out of a three-year economic downturn, and a lot of people (myself included) are out of work, and that making a top-of-the-line gaming PC costs a lot of money. So, no, I haven't been able to play BioWare's most recent products. Does this make me any less deserving of a shot at winning the game? Should I make myself an obnoxious .jpg for my sig? "I used to be part of the community, now I have this crap PC."? People complained that the Bazaar shouldn't be open to people only on Twitter, when Twitter signup is free and simple. But these same people seem to think that the Bazaar should only be open to people who have the cash to sink into every new game that comes down the pike. This is grotesquely self-centered and self-important thinking.

"People are bidding on every auction hoping to win something." Possibly, but what makes you so sure? Did you ever think that maybe someone actually wanted some new t-shirts? I, for example, bid on two auctions, both for the same thing: an ATI video card. That's what I wanted. A new PC was no use to me, I just got a new one, albeit a "budget" model that can't do much. The games were no use to me, on this hardware I can barely play the first Mass Effect. The card was what I wanted: it would give me the ability to play the games, when I manage to get myself a job. In the meantime, I could win obnoxious race on Ilos without pointing the camera straight down on the Mako from above. If I had the card and the game already, I could easily see myself thinking, "Dude, that's a nice hoodie!" The rules state that no player can win more than two prizes, and the realities of the game make it closer to one. So you pick the one that you want, and go for that. Why do you have to accept someone else's valuation of something? On the subject:

"This isn't really an auction." Maybe not. So what? Jade Empire is nothing like real martial arts, either. So the game doesn't unfold like you expected. Big deal. The rules have not changed, the prizes remain the same. If you don't like how the game is turning out, quit and play something else.

And the big one:

"Anyone who racked up tokens using referrals is cheating." No. Definatively no. Yet again: it's in the rules. The only requirements for a hit to the referral URL to be awarded tokens is that it must come from an IP that has not hit the URL before the same day. Nothing in the rules places any restrictions on how the URL should be hit, or by who. My 4501 tokens, for example, were collected by hitting the URL myself repeatedly through anonymous web proxies. This took some time- web proxies are a bit like pornsites, in that you'll have half a dozen or more running off one server. That server only has one IP, so for the first few days it took around three hours of hitting and checking for new tokens before I figured out a list that could reliably give me 500 tokens a day. "That's cheating!" you say. No, it isn't. It's perfectly within the rules. "But it's against the spirit of the rules!" Perhaps. But whether or not the rules are flawed, they are still binding. You cannot amend the rules simply because another player figures out how to play more effectively. In this particular instance, BioWare can change the rules- that was written into the rules. They didn't. It was their prerogative, not yours. You can't even say what I did was unfair- any of you could have made 4500+ tokens the same way as I.

Besides that, nearly everyone who complained about this was also acting against the spirit of the rules. How? Well, the spirit of the referral URLs was essentially that you got tokens for promoting BioWare via social media. And every time I saw a post ****ing about people who were getting tokens without doing this, that post was accompanied by the poster's own referral URL- either in the message body, or in the sig. This is a message board which is populated by devoted BioWare fans who know about, and will most probably buy, whatever they have to offer. The promotional equivalent of empty calories. Make no mistake, my friends, you subverted the spirit of the rules with your clicking cartels the same way I did with my proxies. Renegade +9 for me, you say? Then Renegade +9 all around, gentlemen.

All of this is a moot point for me personally. I live in New York, so I knew from the start of the Bazaar that whatever I won, I wouldn't be receiving it. Indeed, when I gave BioWare my address etc., Mr. Reid replied saying I wasn't eligible. No complaints; I knew it was coming. It was in the rules, you see. I obey the rules, and I don't whine when they don't favor me.

[ykarie]

Lose with dignity, win with grace. Or is it the other way 'round, I never recall.

[Tommass]

That's exactly what people are "whining" about, the referral link was meant to refer NEW people to the site, that the people who won were people who used proxies to give themselves 500 points a day is just stupid and ruins the whole point of a community event. The fact is that it wasnt bioware fans who were winning the auctions but people who came in and did the quizzes because they dont even own a bioware came, then used proxies to get an easy 500 points a day.

Modifié par Tommass, 11 avril 2010 - 05:49 .

[Ryouga]

Quite an interesting read. Reminds me some of Sirlin's "Playing to Win" article:

http://www.sirlin.ne...win-part-1.html

[Drakanwolf]

So... wait... let me see if I understand this. You did all this work, you earned all these "technically legal" tokens, you monitored the auctions, and you placed a winning bid... when you knew you couldn't even get the prize? What was the point? Were you just looking to ruin the day for the guy you outbid? I really don't understand the motivation here.

[abadomen]

"All of this is a moot point for me personally. I live in New York, so I knew from the start of the Bazaar that whatever I won, I wouldn't be receiving it. Indeed, when I gave BioWare my address etc., Mr. Reid replied saying I wasn't eligible. No complaints; I knew it was coming. It was in the rules, you see. I obey the rules, and I don't whine when they don't favor me."



Well...won't complain about the auction.



But...you are a genuine ****.

[Stippling]

BellosTheMighty wrote...

All of this is a moot point for me personally. I live in New York, so I knew from the start of the Bazaar that whatever I won, I wouldn't be receiving it. Indeed, when I gave BioWare my address etc., Mr. Reid replied saying I wasn't eligible. No complaints; I knew it was coming. It was in the rules, you see. I obey the rules, and I don't whine when they don't favor me.

I agreed with everything until this. There's rules and then there's morality. Just because morality isn't clearly defined, it does not give you the right to go and pull a stunt like that. Pity, you had a good argument.

[Drignor]

All of this is a moot point for me personally. I live in New York, so I
knew from the start of the Bazaar that whatever I won, I wouldn't be
receiving it. Indeed, when I gave BioWare my address etc., Mr. Reid
replied saying I wasn't eligible. No complaints; I knew it was
coming. It was in the rules, you see. I obey the rules, and I don't
whine when they don't favor me.

Wow, you are definitely a douchebag among douchebags.

[SarEnyaDor]

All of this is a moot point for me personally. I live in New York, so I knew from the start of the Bazaar that whatever I won, I wouldn't be receiving it. Indeed, when I gave BioWare my address etc., Mr. Reid replied saying I wasn't eligible. No complaints; I knew it was coming. It was in the rules, you see. I obey the rules, and I don't whine when they don't favor me.

Wow.
That's akin to going into a starving country and talking about how you just ate a delicious steak and then puked it up to keep your girlish figure.
 
The stupid is strong with this one.

[marquiseondore]

Drignor wrote...

All of this is a moot point for me personally. I live in New York, so I
knew from the start of the Bazaar that whatever I won, I wouldn't be
receiving it. Indeed, when I gave BioWare my address etc., Mr. Reid
replied saying I wasn't eligible. No complaints; I knew it was
coming. It was in the rules, you see. I obey the rules, and I don't
whine when they don't favor me.

Wow, you are definitely a douchebag among douchebags.

QFT

[BellosTheMighty]

Drakanwolf wrote...

So... wait... let me see if I understand this. You did all this work, you earned all these "technically legal" tokens, you monitored the auctions, and you placed a winning bid... when you knew you couldn't even get the prize? What was the point? Were you just looking to ruin the day for the guy you outbid? I really don't understand the motivation here.

Kind of a silly question, isn't it? Why do I collect Kongregate badges? Why am I going through Mass Effect the 3rd time right now? Why do I re-play Arcanum every few years? Why do I go through Portrait of Ruin on Level 1 Hard using just Jonathon? Why, for that matter, do you? Why do any of us, as gamers, spend so much time and money on this hobby?

Because it's fun, that's why. I enjoyed racking up tokens and coming up with witty responses to silly challenge questions. I enjoyed watching the auctions, observing trends, and planning when to make my move. You remember fun, don't you? It's kind of an old-school concept. It was the purpose of video games back before the purpose changed to "being top dog on internet forums". Or "deserving free stuff for being the best." What, you think I took away your video card to see you squirm? Don't be absurd. Since I'm ineligible, BioWare will award my prize to someone else- probably the guy who came in second to me. That's in the rules, too.

[SarEnyaDor]

But if the guy who came in second then got disheartened and then spent his tokens on a Lithograph or poster pack, what happens then?



I don't fault you for collecting tokens and answering Twitter questions that was, indeed, sort of fun. I find it selfish and rude to bid on something YOU KNEW you couldn't win, thus preventing someone WHO WAS ELIGIBLE from winning it.



And by your own reasoning in the OP you knew the rules going in, and blatantly tried to disenfranchise BioWare and the other players with your callous actions because you found it challenging and fun to do so.

[Jax Sparrow]

Drakanwolf wrote... So... wait... let me see if I understand this. You did all this work, you earned all these "technically legal" tokens, you monitored the auctions, and you placed a winning bid... when you knew you couldn't even get the prize? What was the point? Were you just looking to ruin the day for the guy you outbid? I really don't understand the motivation here.

While I agree the O.P. did some douchebaggery for playing the Auction while he was ineligible;  Yet, there is a likelihood that someone in the list of those he outbid ended up winning when BioWare figured out that he was ineligible.  I say someone because the person right under him might not have had the points left; since you were refunded the points you bid with when you lost that specific auction... (s)he might have spent the points on another auction already.  So yes indeedy, the O.P. definitely did some douchebaggery.

However as far as it being "fair" the auction was anything but "fair";  However, I think fairness is largely overrated.  Though, I do think that the Bazaar and Auction could have done a lot more to reward BioWare's actual fans, versus rewarding anyone on the internet who wants some lewt.  I seriously felt betrayed by BioWare when I learned that people who earn the same amount of points as those who registered their games with "questionaires".  That is just one instance where BioWare should have really rethought the message they were sending to their "fans" with the Bazaar.

[marquiseondore]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Drakanwolf wrote... So... wait... let me see if I understand this. You did all this work, you earned all these "technically legal" tokens, you monitored the auctions, and you placed a winning bid... when you knew you couldn't even get the prize? What was the point? Were you just looking to ruin the day for the guy you outbid? I really don't understand the motivation here.

While I agree the O.P. did some douchebaggery for playing the Auction while he was ineligible;  Yet, there is a likelihood that someone in the list of those he outbid ended up winning when BioWare figured out that he was ineligible.  I say someone because the person right under him might not have had the points left; since you were refunded the points you bid with when you lost that specific auction... (s)he might have spent the points on another auction already.  So yes indeedy, the O.P. definitely did some douchebaggery.

However as far as it being "fair" the auction was anything but "fair";  However, I think fairness is largely overrated.  Though, I do think that the Bazaar and Auction could have done a lot more to reward BioWare's actual fans, versus rewarding anyone on the internet who wants some lewt.  I seriously felt betrayed by BioWare when I learned that people who earn the same amount of points as those who registered their games with "questionaires".  That is just one instance where BioWare should have really rethought the message they were sending to their "fans" with the Bazaar.

The main point should be that people were shut out of a win, as that is now blatantly obvious.

[BellosTheMighty]

How is this an issue? The rules were: You win an auction, you meet the eligibility requirements, you haven't broken the rules en route, you get the prize. We all agreed to those rules. I didn't meet the second condition, so I didn't get the prize. I knew that was coming. I played anyway, just for fun. That's my prerogative, and there is nothing wrong with playing a game that you know you will lose. The parent who throws games of checkers against his child to make them feel good, do you complain that he's wasting his time? The TCG player who goes to a big event with a second-tier deck just to hang out with his better-playing friends, do you gripe that he's disrupting the rankings? The casino patron that barely breaks even at the Carribean Stud tables so as to earn- through wit and conversation- access to the Benezia-class planetoids in the possession of the slightly-inebriated woman in the seat to his right, do you whine that that seat could be taken by another player who would make money? Everyone who has met the three conditions, will get their prize. True, some people who have not met the first will also get prizes. So what? They get a bonus, good for them. How does their good fortune hurt the rest of you?

[Malevolente]

I made that many tokens by actually getting other people to click on my link. You just sound like a lazy ****-hole making excuses for yourself. Maybe that explains why you don't have a job, trying to do real work for something is too hard for you. Anyways why did you make this post? You feel some guilt and needed to justify your actions?



Congratulations on exposing your stupidity for no reason at all.

[pediep]

BellosTheMighty wrote...

How is this an issue? The rules were: You win an auction, you meet the eligibility requirements, you haven't broken the rules en route, you get the prize. We all agreed to those rules. I didn't meet the second condition, so I didn't get the prize. I knew that was coming. I played anyway, just for fun. That's my prerogative, and there is nothing wrong with playing a game that you know you will lose. The parent who throws games of checkers against his child to make them feel good, do you complain that he's wasting his time? The TCG player who goes to a big event with a second-tier deck just to hang out with his better-playing friends, do you gripe that he's disrupting the rankings? The casino patron that barely breaks even at the Carribean Stud tables so as to earn- through wit and conversation- access to the Benezia-class planetoids in the possession of the slightly-inebriated woman in the seat to his right, do you whine that that seat could be taken by another player who would make money? Everyone who has met the three conditions, will get their prize. True, some people who have not met the first will also get prizes. So what? They get a bonus, good for them. How does their good fortune hurt the rest of you?

Couldn't you just transfer the winning to a family member that lives outside of NY? Is that against the rules?

I don't think there is any fairness in all of this, just like life. For instance, my heart goes out to second place on the last auction which was a laptop. Yup, second place had more than 14,000 points and won nothing!

Everybody had equal chance and the rules were stated up front. In addition there were many more prices than I expected so your odds are better than most competitions.

[Crixt]

Very well thought out, observant, rational post that I completely agree with, totally illegitimized by pulling that douchebaggery and winning an item you knew you wouldn't receive.

[tetracycloide]

"My 4501 tokens, for example, were collected by hitting the URL myself repeatedly through anonymous web proxies."

Wow, all that bull **** only to finally reveal you're a big fat cheater.   You want to say 'well it's ok because anyone could do it and every else did stuff that's just as bad' but **** that noise.  You want to say 'it's in the rules' and act like what you did was fair but that's a load of **** and you ****ing know it you good for nothing cheater.  You've been reported.  Here's hoping a moderator will see through you paper thin excuses and rationalizations and your brazen blustering earns you a permanent ban from the site.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 avril 2010 - 10:21 .

[Feraele]

I think this just about takes the cake. I couldn't participate either, and I certainly wasn't going to stand in the way of anyone else, by attempting to hijack a prize ..that I knew I couldn't have in the first place.



What I did instead, was place my referal number in my signature bar, and thats about all I did. I also ..contributed to the community team spirit thing, by going to the legimate link referral threads and attempting to click all the links I could find. That was to help people out, even though I couldn't participate myself.



Thats the big wide gap, between you and me Op.



Such a shame people have to be like that...FUN at the expense of others.

[RocketSurgery]

OP you are scum imo

[DespiertaLosNinos]

BellosTheMighty wrote...
The parent who throws games of checkers against his child to make them feel good, do you complain that he's wasting his time?

That is referring to an act of charity to make someone else happy.  Can you not see how your tale is a mild bit different?

I couldn't careless about the auction, I didn't have enough points to bid and I have way too much to do to try and be "social" online.  Easy come, easy go.  However, what you did by laying claim to something despite knowing you had no claim to it is utterly childish.  It really makes me rethink my career choice when I contemplate that it's sh!theads like you that I risk my neck for. 

Congrats in proving that you're a waste of space

Semper

Modifié par DespiertaLosNinos, 11 avril 2010 - 11:10 .

[Sherana]

BellosTheMighty wrote...

How is this an issue? The rules were: You win an auction, you meet the eligibility requirements, you haven't broken the rules en route, you get the prize. We all agreed to those rules. I didn't meet the second condition, so I didn't get the prize. I knew that was coming. I played anyway, just for fun. That's my prerogative, and there is nothing wrong with playing a game that you know you will lose. The parent who throws games of checkers against his child to make them feel good, do you complain that he's wasting his time? The TCG player who goes to a big event with a second-tier deck just to hang out with his better-playing friends, do you gripe that he's disrupting the rankings? The casino patron that barely breaks even at the Carribean Stud tables so as to earn- through wit and conversation- access to the Benezia-class planetoids in the possession of the slightly-inebriated woman in the seat to his right, do you whine that that seat could be taken by another player who would make money? Everyone who has met the three conditions, will get their prize. True, some people who have not met the first will also get prizes. So what? They get a bonus, good for them. How does their good fortune hurt the rest of you?

Here's how it screws people.  Numbers are not specific to any one auction, but just to show how it happens.

Someone places a bid for 2000.  You bid for 3000.  You've now shut out everyone with enough tokens to beat the legitimate bid but not enough to beat you from even BIDDING.

Or, in even simpler terms: You're an ass.

[BellosTheMighty]

Am I the only one who understands this? I took nothing from anyone, because I knew from the start that I wouldn't get my prize. I wanted to have fun playing, and I did. Someone else, who was playing for the prize, gets it in my place. Why the objections, people? Is it simple jealousy? Are you mad at me because I won? Can you honestly say you would still be raising such a stink if I bid and lost? If the people I had outbid had outbid me instead, they would go away with the prize. They didn't, so they lost the prize, but one of them goes away with it anyway. I got what I wanted, they got what they wanted. What exactly is wrong with this state of events?

[Sherana]

The problem is that you kept legitimate players from playing. How is THAT hard to understand?