234 réponses à ce sujet

[Skilled Seeker]

janeym27 wrote...

I dunno. Zaeed always stikes me as an 'out for number one' kind of character, and the team leader needs to be able to think tactically in terms of a whole squad under pressure. Jacob, Miranda and Garrus have all got military combat experience and squad leadership experience. Freelancing, even with a small team, is a different kettle of fish. Also, the rest of the team need to trust in the skills of the leader, and frankly, I wouldn't trust Zaeed as far as I could throw him (not after the crap he pulled on his LM).

I would have expected Mordin to be able to lead a fire team, though. After all, he was in charge of a Salarian STG. But no, I totally get why Zaeed gets people killed. Even if it is in reality just down to him being DLC.

Mordin did reconnaissance missions not heavy combat.

[Virtual winter]

In my first playthrough I picked Zaeed as the alternate team leader as well. For the same reasons - I figured he would be a shoe-in for it, considering his experience. Strangely enough it was Zaeed himself who died during it!



It felt like a good ending for him though. After his 20 year mission was over, he wouldn't know what to do with himself anymore anyway.

[Skilled Seeker]

Virtual winter wrote...

In my first playthrough I picked Zaeed as the alternate team leader as well. For the same reasons - I figured he would be a shoe-in for it, considering his experience. Strangely enough it was Zaeed himself who died during it!

It felt like a good ending for him though. After his 20 year mission was over, he wouldn't know what to do with himself anymore anyway.

Hehe same happened on my first playthrough but it was a good way for him to go. I loved his last words he says 'figured it would end like this'.

[Phaelducan]

Different situation though, on Torfan the fate of the Galaxy wasn't at stake and in all probability it doesn't matter if most of your soldiers die in the process of winning.

On the Suicide Mission, any death is a potentially catastrophic blow to your odds of success. I would imagine that Zaeed would understand the parameters of the mission and make damn sure that as many people as possible were still breathing. It just doesn't make sense for him to not be ANY better at leading a small squad in a fire fight than the other folks who also fail.



For that matter, we don't have any real notion that Miranda or Jacob actually led other combat troops in a situation like that. Jacob for all we know was just like Alenko or worse... Jenkins in his role as an Alliance soldier. As far as I know we never get his rank or the specifics of his combat experience. Same with Miranda. She "leads" the Cerberus Cell, but we have no idea in what capacity she has been exposed to live combat.



Again, I'm not complaining about the result, (I also think that because he was launch DLC they just didn't bother to program it) but logically I think the notion that "he can't lead because he's a jerk" doesn't hold water. Hell, half the people playing the game probably have a Shepard that is 10x the Jerk Zaeed is but he can still apparently inspire leadership just fine.

[GothamLord]

IoCaster wrote...

janeym27 wrote...

I dunno. Zaeed always stikes me as an 'out for number one' kind of character, and the team leader needs to be able to think tactically in terms of a whole squad under pressure. Jacob, Miranda and Garrus have all got military combat experience and squad leadership experience.  -snip- 

Serious question. Where in the game is it explicitly stated that Miranda has any military training or combat squad leadership experience? She went straight from 'daddy' to Cerberus without doing any military service. If she did have experience with Cerberus in combat operations it seems to me that it would mostly involve terrorist activity. That's something that she denies participating in or even knowledge of throughout the game.

Maybe "Daddy" was prior military. We really dont know much about Mister Lawson outside of the fact he's got to much money for his own good. Seeing Miranda is a copy of his own genome, maybe some natural talent for tacticts and military based situations came built in along with the modified improves towards intelligence and everything else.

[Phaelducan]

IoCaster wrote...

janeym27 wrote...

I dunno. Zaeed always stikes me as an 'out for number one' kind of character, and the team leader needs to be able to think tactically in terms of a whole squad under pressure. Jacob, Miranda and Garrus have all got military combat experience and squad leadership experience.  -snip- 

Serious question. Where in the game is it explicitly stated that Miranda has any military training or combat squad leadership experience? She went straight from 'daddy' to Cerberus without doing any military service. If she did have experience with Cerberus in combat operations it seems to me that it would mostly involve terrorist activity. That's something that she denies participating in or even knowledge of throughout the game.

Yeah, to my knowledge there isn't anything in the game about that. She's just a "leader" and that's that. Not to mention that I would imagine several of the squadmates wouldn't be remotely comfortable listening to Miranda just on principle, but meh.

Garrus is legit though, bona-fide. Jacob probably is, but I don't recall specifics being mentioned in the game (yeah he's military, is good at killing, was on Eden Prime and etc, but no mention of leading a squad).

Edit: Edit, yeah that is plausible that she is a terrific potential leader just based on genetics. It just seems that as the natural and logical choice (and one that won't get your tech killed), it's a little far-fetched that she can do just fine with no confirmed real-combat experience... but the Merc Captain with 2+ Decades of experience can't hack because "he's a meany."

Modifié par Phaelducan, 11 avril 2010 - 11:23 .

[janeym27]

IoCaster wrote...

janeym27 wrote...

I dunno. Zaeed always stikes me as an 'out for number one' kind of character, and the team leader needs to be able to think tactically in terms of a whole squad under pressure. Jacob, Miranda and Garrus have all got military combat experience and squad leadership experience.  -snip- 

Serious question. Where in the game is it explicitly stated that Miranda has any military training or combat squad leadership experience? She went straight from 'daddy' to Cerberus without doing any military service. If she did have experience with Cerberus in combat operations it seems to me that it would mostly involve terrorist activity. That's something that she denies participating in or even knowledge of throughout the game.

Cerberus is run with a military proficeiencey, and Miranda is one of their top operatives. Granted, her exact rise through the ranks is vague, but from her various contacts and skills demostrated in Mass Effect Galaxy is it evident that she has been around, not simply 'run straight from daddy'. She also has links with (although never served with) the Alliance military. Few Operatives answer directly to The Illusive Man, and the fact that Miranda does makes her very highly ranked. In any case, she is designed for both intelliengence and combat, and was in charge of the entire Lazerous project research base. This doesn't mean simply doing the science: she was responsible for overseeing and implimenting everything to do with the project, which is a massive task and would have required considerable leadership skills.

[Skilled Seeker]

Jacob used to be captain of his own ship during his time as an alliance coursier. So he can obviously lead.

[Phaelducan]

Yeah, being a Captain of a ship doesn't necessarily give combat experience though. Not saying Jacob can't lead, I'm just saying the qualities for a successful "fit" for the Fire Team Leader aren't clearly defined on the Cerberus Folk.

[Skilled Seeker]

Well didn't the Coursiers deal with pirates and smugglers? So we can assume he has got leadership experience in combat.

[janeym27]

I think the Cerberus team member leadership skills not evidenced in ME2 are shown in Mass Effect Galaxy much more effectivly.

[shengar]

Zaeed's squad member always ends up dead. Maybe that not because Zaeed lack of leadership, but his former squad members lack of skills. Compared to Miranda, Zaeed has more experience against the impossible odds, as experience is one of the most important part of a squad leader in a battlefield. As for Jacob, it's fine since he also have some "impossible odds" in his career record. It's bioware mistake to overlook this.

[IoCaster]

janeym27 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

janeym27 wrote...

I dunno. Zaeed always stikes me as an 'out for number one' kind of character, and the team leader needs to be able to think tactically in terms of a whole squad under pressure. Jacob, Miranda and Garrus have all got military combat experience and squad leadership experience.  -snip- 

Serious question. Where in the game is it explicitly stated that Miranda has any military training or combat squad leadership experience? She went straight from 'daddy' to Cerberus without doing any military service. If she did have experience with Cerberus in combat operations it seems to me that it would mostly involve terrorist activity. That's something that she denies participating in or even knowledge of throughout the game.

Cerberus is run with a military proficeiencey, and Miranda is one of their top operatives. Granted, her exact rise through the ranks is vague, but from her various contacts and skills demostrated in Mass Effect Galaxy is it evident that she has been around, not simply 'run straight from daddy'. She also has links with (although never served with) the Alliance military. Few Operatives answer directly to The Illusive Man, and the fact that Miranda does makes her very highly ranked. In any case, she is designed for both intelliengence and combat, and was in charge of the entire Lazerous project research base. This doesn't mean simply doing the science: she was responsible for overseeing and implimenting everything to do with the project, which is a massive task and would have required considerable leadership skills.

So it's not explicitly stated and there's no proof in the game itself. This is just speculation on your part and you're comfortable with that. That's fine and dandy, but I'm not inclined to let my imagination run wild so as to rationalize something that doesn't make sense to me. If the devs want me to take a character seriously for a particular role then they should at least make an attempt to provide some details in the background brief. It's no big deal and I can appreciate that you're satisfied, but can you understand why someone else might have some doubts about her qualifications?

[Phaelducan]

I'm not trying to argue that Jacob isn't capable, all I'm saying is that Zaeed's combat experience is well defined, clearly explained, and I would say unarguably superior to either Jacob or Miranda (combined, for that matter).

Jacob I'm sure was in combat situations, but I'd wager not terribly often (smugglers and pirates would be prone to run more than fight when faced with Alliance military I would guess).
Miranda I'm sure has every conceivable asset a leader could have... except perhaps real experience relevant to fighting hostile enemy forces with superior numbers, technology, and on their home turf.

I'm really not trying to argue about the guys who can do the job though, it just seems weird that Zaeed can't.

Edit: More than weird, really. The more I think about it, the more it just doesn't make sense that Zaeed as leader guarantees a dead tech. All of the interactions with Zaeed from your shipmates, NPC's, and even the Illusive man give the impression that he is one hell of a combatant with loads of experience. If it was BioWare's intention otherwise, to give the impression that Zaeed is an incompetent leader of troops (and I would argue that it is CLEAR that your Biotic/Tech guys aren't fit to lead), then most of his content is a pretty big Red Herring. I think it's just oversight. He should be a 4th viable leader, but isn't because they didn't want to include it.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 11 avril 2010 - 11:39 .

[Skilled Seeker]

I agree Zaeed should work as a team leader as I said above I picked him on my first playthrough. 

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 11 avril 2010 - 11:40 .

[janeym27]

IoCaster wrote...

janeym27 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

janeym27 wrote...

I dunno. Zaeed always stikes me as an 'out for number one' kind of character, and the team leader needs to be able to think tactically in terms of a whole squad under pressure. Jacob, Miranda and Garrus have all got military combat experience and squad leadership experience.  -snip- 

Serious question. Where in the game is it explicitly stated that Miranda has any military training or combat squad leadership experience? She went straight from 'daddy' to Cerberus without doing any military service. If she did have experience with Cerberus in combat operations it seems to me that it would mostly involve terrorist activity. That's something that she denies participating in or even knowledge of throughout the game.

Cerberus is run with a military proficeiencey, and Miranda is one of their top operatives. Granted, her exact rise through the ranks is vague, but from her various contacts and skills demostrated in Mass Effect Galaxy is it evident that she has been around, not simply 'run straight from daddy'. She also has links with (although never served with) the Alliance military. Few Operatives answer directly to The Illusive Man, and the fact that Miranda does makes her very highly ranked. In any case, she is designed for both intelliengence and combat, and was in charge of the entire Lazerous project research base. This doesn't mean simply doing the science: she was responsible for overseeing and implimenting everything to do with the project, which is a massive task and would have required considerable leadership skills.

So it's not explicitly stated and there's no proof in the game itself. This is just speculation on your part and you're comfortable with that. That's fine and dandy, but I'm not inclined to let my imagination run wild so as to rationalize something that doesn't make sense to me. If the devs want me to take a character seriously for a particular role then they should at least make an attempt to provide some details in the background brief. It's no big deal and I can appreciate that you're satisfied, but can you understand why someone else might have some doubts about her qualifications?

I get where you are coming from, but personally I don't need to see a detailed military history to be convinced that an operation like Cerberus is not going to put it's biggest project in the hands of someone who has no experience. As for Zaeed, his reputation in game seems like he's a famous mercenary and bounty hunter, but beyond the fact that he's 'been involved in some of the best known (and some utterly unknown) military operations in the Terminus Systems', I'm like OK, so what did you actually do? He's got war stories, and founded the Blue Suns, but for 20 years seems to have been on a revenge kick. I wouldn't trust him with a team, and his actions on his LM show that he doesn't play well with others. Do we know if his involvement in these operations was solo or team based? As someone else said, Zaeed can get the job done damn well, but he'll get it done at the expense of others, which is why you lose Tali (she's done her bit by then anyway). Makes perfect sense to me.

In terms of actual combat leadership experience as exampled IN GAME, Garrus is really your lot. And the team he most famously led ended up a tad killed. 

I think that with this universe, you have to base certain assertions off action and charactgerisation, since not all the information is provided all the time. Hell, in ME1 my Shepard wasbeing made a Spectre, and as far as I could tell herv defining characteristic was that she had managed to lose an entire squad to a Thesher Maw. Not exactly examplary career stuff there. I was forced to assume she had since done other stuff, or else acept that the Aliiance and Council were just freaking idiots.  

But each to their own.

[Keltoris]

"I've survived this long watching my own back. No time to worry about anyone else."



That, to me, pretty much sums it up.

[smudboy]

Phaelducan wrote...

Ok, so on my third trip into the base, and after having Miranda and Garrus each take their leadership turns previously, I wanted to mix it up.

After careful consideration, I thought hell, if Miranda at her age could successfully lead a Fire Team, then Zaeed ought to have a cake-walk given his experience.

Wrong, boom Tali gets shot in the face, and yes everyone is loyal.

I'm not questioning Miranda or Garrus as a leader... but come on, Zaeed has been a Mercenary for at least 25 years or so, probably closer to 35. From his stories, he's seen and done an incredible amount of combat scenarios, and has fought just about every type of foe there is to fight.... in small squad based tactical situations.

Yeah, he has no prior experience with the Collector's (evidenced by his commentary after Horizon), but neither does anyone else. Even after choosing him to lead the first Fire Team Miranda even says "At least he knows what he's doing."

It strike anyone else as odd that Zaeed is incompetent when it comes to leadership?

I agree.  My first playthrough, I chose Zaeed as fire team leader.  He has the most experience and knowledge of combat tactics.  "He's like you but he takes checks."

Using the argument that Garrus is a better choice is immaterial, since in both were betrayed by someone.

Whereas Garrus has been a merc to survive, Zaeed is a paid professional who gets the job done.

The only problem is because he's such a renegade, it might be difficult for others to follow his orders.  But if everyone's loyal to Shepard, and Shepard tells people to follow another leader, this shouldn't be a problem.

[IoCaster]

Phaelducan wrote...

I'm not trying to argue that Jacob isn't capable, all I'm saying is that Zaeed's combat experience is well defined, clearly explained, and I would say unarguably superior to either Jacob or Miranda (combined, for that matter).

Jacob I'm sure was in combat situations, but I'd wager not terribly often (smugglers and pirates would be prone to run more than fight when faced with Alliance military I would guess).
Miranda I'm sure has every conceivable asset a leader could have... except perhaps real experience relevant to fighting hostile enemy forces with superior numbers, technology, and on their home turf.

I'm really not trying to argue about the guys who can do the job though, it just seems weird that Zaeed can't.

Edit: More than weird, really. The more I think about it, the more it just doesn't make sense that Zaeed as leader guarantees a dead tech. All of the interactions with Zaeed from your shipmates, NPC's, and even the Illusive man give the impression that he is one hell of a combatant with loads of experience. If it was BioWare's intention otherwise, to give the impression that Zaeed is an incompetent leader of troops (and I would argue that it is CLEAR that your Biotic/Tech guys aren't fit to lead), then most of his content is a pretty big Red Herring. I think it's just oversight. He should be a 4th viable leader, but isn't because they didn't want to include it.

The biggest problem for me in this whole 2nd squad leader setup is that it's mostly meaningless. The fact is that whoever you pick actually succeeds at getting everyone safely to the rendezvous. The tech dies while attempting to close the door. At this point the whole group is together and Shepard is back in control of the team. If anyone has to take responsibility for failure it would be Shepard. So it's simply a game design decision and it doesn't really need to make any sense. *shrug*

[Phaelducan]

That's a good point about the ME1 intro dialogue with Hackett, Udina, and Anderson. I'm not going to suggest that we shouldn't take anything we don't directly see into consideration, and I agree that Miranda probably does have "some" combat experience. Jacob also has combat experience, but the oddity (for me anyway) is that we ARE told about Zaeed's experience and no where in the game does it say anything about him being incompetent.



He talks about, it must be 6 or 7 different mission types, and most of those involve being under direct fire. It just stretches the realm of plausibility too far (for me) that Zaeed would not know how to effectively get his team to a checkpoint on time, lay down suppressing fire, and meet an objective any better than Grunt or any other of the improper leaders.



He's been doing exactly what you are asking the Fire Team Leader to do for most of his life, and for some inexplicable reason... he sucks at it? Meh, it just strikes me as bizarre. The statement that "he doesn't care about anyone" isn't really enough of a justification for his failure to me.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Don't you think it says something that when Zaeed lost control of the Blue Suns, it was to their accountant? To the guy that handled their books? Zaeed says he handled the men... yet they shot him in the face.



So no, I don't think it is odd. :-)

[Phaelducan]

Keltoris wrote...

"I've survived this long watching my own back. No time to worry about anyone else."

That, to me, pretty much sums it up.

Problem there is that attitude shifts during the course of his loyalty mission. He states that he is a Team Player, more or less, and sees the benefit of cooperation. You are also on the Collector Base... through the Relay. The time for self-serving BS is pretty over by then.

Edit: All fairness to Vido... that's one bad mofo of an accountant. All fairness to accountants... get 6 Mercenaries with guns to do what said account asks, and most people will listen.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 11 avril 2010 - 12:04 .

[nikki191]

hes a merc, he gets the job done, that can unfortunately mean casualties happen..



actual probable reason.. bioware probably forgot to add leadership skills for the suicide mission

[Throw_this_away]

I think he has the skills, but I think trust is an issue.  A good leader earns the trust of the team.  

[IoCaster]

I'm going to make an attempt to just deal with the factual evidence that is presented within the game (ME2) itself. I didn't play ME Galaxy and it's not a prerequisite to playing ME2 so I can't comment on any of the events that took place in the iPhone game.

janeym27 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...
So it's not explicitly stated and there's no proof in the game itself. This is just speculation on your part and you're comfortable with that. That's fine and dandy, but I'm not inclined to let my imagination run wild so as to rationalize something that doesn't make sense to me. If the devs want me to take a character seriously for a particular role then they should at least make an attempt to provide some details in the background brief. It's no big deal and I can appreciate that you're satisfied, but can you understand why someone else might have some doubts about her qualifications?

I get where you are coming from, but personally I don't need to see a detailed military history to be convinced that an operation like Cerberus is not going to put it's biggest project in the hands of someone who has no experience.

If you mean the Lazarus Project then I'm not sure how that can be characterized as a military operation. Miranda does fight her way through some mechs to get to the shuttle and meets you there, but the project itself is a medical/resurrection operation. To say that she was successful as a project manager is certainly a valid argument to make and I'm inclined to agree. None of that makes the case that she has experience in the role of a combat leader.

janeym27 wrote...
As for Zaeed, his reputation in game seems like he's a famous mercenary and bounty hunter, but beyond the fact that he's 'been involved in some of the best known (and some utterly unknown) military operations in the Terminus Systems', I'm like OK, so what did you actually do? He's got war stories, and founded the Blue Suns, but for 20 years seems to have been on a revenge kick. I wouldn't trust him with a team, and his actions on his LM show that he doesn't play well with others. Do we know if his involvement in these operations was solo or team based? As someone else said, Zaeed can get the job done damn well, but he'll get it done at the expense of others, which is why you lose Tali (she's done her bit by then anyway). Makes perfect sense to me.

The fact that he has lead teams in combat is stated explicitly in the game itself. That puts him at least one step ahead of Miranda in the experience category as far as actually known details is concerned.

The reason that Tali dies is not really based on anything that Zaeed or anyone else failed to do as a team leader. His task was to get his team from point A to point B without any casualties on his squad. Done and done. He got there and everyone on his squad was intact.

The 2nd team leader had no responsibility for the tech person. As a matter of fact Shepard was the one responsible for opening the valves that cleared the way for the tech to proceed through the pipe. The tech dies after the 2nd team leader accomplishes the mission he/she is tasked with. The reason that the tech dies in that instance is because the devs dictated it for gameplay reasons and not because it actually has to make sense or be logical.

janeym27 wrote...
In terms of actual combat leadership experience as exampled IN GAME, Garrus is really your lot. And the team he most famously led ended up a tad killed.

That is explained in the game in such a way that it's understood that Garrus was betrayed and drawn away from his team when they were killed. Would he have been able to save them if he were there? We can speculate that it's possible, but that's a moot point. We do know that he was able to successfully hold off three mercenary bands by himself after the fact. At least long enough for Shepard to get there and get him away to safety. Up to that point though it's explicitly made clear that he successfully lead his team in combat. He was so successful that the three merc bands found it necessary to combine their personnel and resources to take him down.

janeym27 wrote...
I think that with this universe, you have to base certain assertions off action and charactgerisation, since not all the information is provided all the time. Hell, in ME1 my Shepard wasbeing made a Spectre, and as far as I could tell herv defining characteristic was that she had managed to lose an entire squad to a Thesher Maw. Not exactly examplary career stuff there. I was forced to assume she had since done other stuff, or else acept that the Aliiance and Council were just freaking idiots. 

I certainly can't argue with that. I just prefer to have a logical and consistent foundation for any assumptions that I make.

janeym27 wrote...
But each to their own.

I agree. I would have replied to your post earlier but I got sidetracked with other matters. In any case, it's been a relatively amiable discussion so far and I'm grateful for it.