234 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonathan Shepard]

twinMN wrote...

He is a mercenary - only looks out for himself, hence lack of leadership skills. Which led to squadmate death

But the technician isn't even really in the second leader's squad. I always thought it was stupid to kill the technician-- the two party members with the second fire team leader should've died instead.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

twinMN wrote...

He is a mercenary - only looks out for himself, hence lack of leadership skills. Which led to squadmate death

But the technician isn't even really in the second leader's squad. I always thought it was stupid to kill the technician-- the two party members with the second fire team leader should've died instead.

I think it depends on how we're considering it. In every scenario where the technician dies, we see the door 'jam', so I think it makes sense that they would take it upon themselves to finish their job.

[eternalnightmare13]

Phaelducan wrote...

Ok, so on my third trip into the base, and after having Miranda and Garrus each take their leadership turns previously, I wanted to mix it up.

After careful consideration, I thought hell, if Miranda at her age could successfully lead a Fire Team, then Zaeed ought to have a cake-walk given his experience.

Wrong, boom Tali gets shot in the face, and yes everyone is loyal.

I'm not questioning Miranda or Garrus as a leader... but come on, Zaeed has been a Mercenary for at least 25 years or so, probably closer to 35. From his stories, he's seen and done an incredible amount of combat scenarios, and has fought just about every type of foe there is to fight.... in small squad based tactical situations.

Yeah, he has no prior experience with the Collector's (evidenced by his commentary after Horizon), but neither does anyone else. Even after choosing him to lead the first Fire Team Miranda even says "At least he knows what he's doing."

It strike anyone else as odd that Zaeed is incompetent when it comes to leadership?

No, if you talk to him on the ship you learn that most of his stories end with ''and I was the only one to survive''.  Plus, he's been a bounty hunter for quite awhile that works alone.

[Zaeed Massani]

Phaelducan wrote...

I'm not questioning Miranda or Garrus as a leader... but come on, Zaeed has been a Mercenary for at least 25 years or so, probably closer to 35. From his stories, he's seen and done an incredible amount of combat scenarios, and has fought just about every type of foe there is to fight.... in small squad based tactical situations.

Goddamn right I did.

I've survived every damn mission I've ever led. It doesn't matter how many bodies I have to sacrifice as long as I'm there when the job gets finished. When I'm leading a squad, you'd better listen to orders -- because this is MY squad.

I'll get you killed if it means that the rest of us won't.

[Wildhide]

One if the arguments for Zaeed being a good leader for the fire team I keep seeing is that in the loyalty mission he agrees to be a team player. Agree to work with your squad doesn't give him sudden leadership skills or make him a leader. It makes him a good follower, which he wasn't before. Easily seen in his loyalty mission when he stops listening to you and sets the refinery ablaze.



He doesn't strike me as a good leader at all, and being a mercenary for 20 years doesn't mean he has to be a good one. It means he's a good mercenary and he knows how to fight, that's it. Someone can work in management their whole life and just be good enough not to get fired. And you don't need the average shmuck that gets by on the tips of his fingers for a suicide mission.



Zaeed is an enforcer, that's what he's good at. He lost the Blue Suns because he was a poor leader and his second was better, allowing him to get their favor and take the organization from Zaeed. Zaeed's teams tend to die, not because he's a bad mercenary, but because he's a bad leader. He's far too used to worrying about his own ass and getting the job done to bother with things like keeping the other people alive.



He doesn't seem the sort to just let people die for no reason, but if he thinks it'll see his mission through he's clearly got no qualms about tossing a few bodies into the fire.

[Xaijin]

MugenJustice wrote...

Eskarne wrote...

uhdnrt wrote...

DLC characters do not exist to me in story mode - I would never select them as a specialist or team leader.

Funny I thought that Kasumi would be a great tech specialist and shockingly enough she was.

This.

Except she doesn't do any "tech" stuff except for being invisible. Funny how the anthropomorphization starts in.

[Wildhide]

Xaijin wrote...

MugenJustice wrote...

Eskarne wrote...

uhdnrt wrote...

DLC characters do not exist to me in story mode - I would never select them as a specialist or team leader.

Funny I thought that Kasumi would be a great tech specialist and shockingly enough she was.

This.

Except she doesn't do any "tech" stuff except for being invisible. Funny how the anthropomorphization starts in.

You mean besides hacking doors, hacking an active gunships shield system, piecing together DNA and Voice samples to pass a vault lock, hacking into communication systems, and reprogramming omnitools for various tasks including scanning for power sources?

[Phaelducan]

Zaeed Massani wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

I'm not questioning Miranda or Garrus as a leader... but come on, Zaeed has been a Mercenary for at least 25 years or so, probably closer to 35. From his stories, he's seen and done an incredible amount of combat scenarios, and has fought just about every type of foe there is to fight.... in small squad based tactical situations.

Goddamn right I did.

I've survived every damn mission I've ever led. It doesn't matter how many bodies I have to sacrifice as long as I'm there when the job gets finished. When I'm leading a squad, you'd better listen to orders -- because this is MY squad.

I'll get you killed if it means that the rest of us won't.

I thought we came to an understanding over that whole Vido Santiago thing? Guess not.

[Phaelducan]

Wildhide wrote...

One if the arguments for Zaeed being a good leader for the fire team I keep seeing is that in the loyalty mission he agrees to be a team player. Agree to work with your squad doesn't give him sudden leadership skills or make him a leader. It makes him a good follower, which he wasn't before. Easily seen in his loyalty mission when he stops listening to you and sets the refinery ablaze.

He doesn't strike me as a good leader at all, and being a mercenary for 20 years doesn't mean he has to be a good one. It means he's a good mercenary and he knows how to fight, that's it. Someone can work in management their whole life and just be good enough not to get fired. And you don't need the average shmuck that gets by on the tips of his fingers for a suicide mission.

Zaeed is an enforcer, that's what he's good at. He lost the Blue Suns because he was a poor leader and his second was better, allowing him to get their favor and take the organization from Zaeed. Zaeed's teams tend to die, not because he's a bad mercenary, but because he's a bad leader. He's far too used to worrying about his own ass and getting the job done to bother with things like keeping the other people alive.

He doesn't seem the sort to just let people die for no reason, but if he thinks it'll see his mission through he's clearly got no qualms about tossing a few bodies into the fire.

Actually, after reading some of the responses and thinking more about it, I think that Zaeed actually does fine at what he is asked to do. I can't think of any other reason than he is DLC and possible time constraints/lack of desire from BioWare that the Tech dies with him as Fire Team Leader. I think Miranda's stamp of approval right before you start is a clear indicator that Zaeed is extremely capable of getting three bodies through the slew of collectors safely and successfully. It's likely just a yes/no flag for whether or not the Tech dies, and Zaeed didn't get the yes flag with the other launch "optimal" leaders.

Not to belittle that post, as it was well thought out and concise/to the point, but I simply can't see all the work BioWare put into charactering Zaeed as a combat badass and extremely successful Mercenary mitigated by his... for lack of a better term.... renegade status. Shep is a perfect example of how Renegade is just as effective as Paragon in the ME universe.

Your post is basically asking us to accept the logic that BioWare only allows for success if the character in question leads "properly" or in other words as a paragon. Zaeed knows what's what, and there is no way the Tech would die if he was a launch squad mate. 

I'm sticking with simple oversight for the problem. No big deal, it's not the first time we've played games where the writers forced us into results we didn't like.

Edit: What's silly is that you get the same death scene whether or not the Tech is Loyal but bad leader or the Tech is not Loyal but good leader.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 11 avril 2010 - 03:00 .

[GammaBlaze]

The exact same thing happened to me on my first playthrough.

Hah, yep me too.

Got Legion and then himself taken out <_<.

[KOKitten]

Honestly I always thought it made no sense that Zaeed dies if you select him as your 2nd fire team leader.

I understand BioWare's reasoning that he's always been the sole survivor of his missions. So, if that's the case, Zaeed should survive as 2nd fire team leader and one or more members of the squad he's leading should die instead. Instead Zaeed dies. Looking at that makes you think he made sure his squad got to safety first. Bit of a contradiction.

[Zaeed Massani]

Phaelducan wrote...

Zaeed Massani wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

I'm not questioning Miranda or Garrus as a leader... but come on, Zaeed has been a Mercenary for at least 25 years or so, probably closer to 35. From his stories, he's seen and done an incredible amount of combat scenarios, and has fought just about every type of foe there is to fight.... in small squad based tactical situations.

Goddamn right I did.

I've survived every damn mission I've ever led. It doesn't matter how many bodies I have to sacrifice as long as I'm there when the job gets finished. When I'm leading a squad, you'd better listen to orders -- because this is MY squad.

I'll get you killed if it means that the rest of us won't.

I thought we came to an understanding over that whole Vido Santiago thing? Guess not.

You can't be serious. I was ready to shoot Shepard point-blank before that pillar fell and took out one of my legs. He would have let me fry if I didn't agree to everything he said.

[Kasumi Goto]

Phaelducan wrote...

I'm sticking with simple oversight for the problem. No big deal, it's not the first time we've played games where the writers forced us into results we didn't like.

Edit: What's silly is that you get the same death scene whether or not the Tech is Loyal but bad leader or the Tech is not Loyal but good leader.

My main role as Tech Specialist and Zaeed's main role at holding the line were already decided pre-release.

Our chances of dying aboard the Normandy are also kind of high. Other than that, it's not so bad.

[FlyingBrickyard]

IoCaster wrote...

janeym27 wrote...
In terms of actual combat leadership experience as exampled IN GAME, Garrus is really your lot. And the team he most famously led ended up a tad killed.

That is explained in the game in such a way that it's understood that Garrus was betrayed and drawn away from his team when they were killed. Would he have been able to save them if he were there? We can speculate that it's possible, but that's a moot point. We do know that he was able to successfully hold off three mercenary bands by himself after the fact. At least long enough for Shepard to get there and get him away to safety. Up to that point though it's explicitly made clear that he successfully lead his team in combat. He was so successful that the three merc bands found it necessary to combine their personnel and resources to take him down.

I think another critical but often overlooked point is how both Garrus and Zaeed viewed and dealt with the loss of their squads.

For Zaeed, they were tools - a means to an end.  Take a loss here or there and it's no big deal.  It's all part of the job.  As long as he gets out and gets closer to his revenge, it's all good.

When you talk to him, it's almost as if he's proud that most of the time he's the only one who makes it out alive.    The dead squadmembers aren't given a second thought.

Garrus, on the other hand was crushed by the loss of his team and took personal responisibility for every death.  He was haunted by it, where Zaeed wears it like a badge of honor.

Garrus would trade his life for the life of anyone in his squad without hesitation.  Zaeed would trade the life of anyone in his squad to preserve his own with equal speed.

Sure, on the surface both look very similar in qualifications and experience, and even motivations - both have experience leading teams, both lost one or more teams under their command, both are highly skilled and both are on a personal mission of revenge.

But the key difference is their view of things. 

Garrus is driven to avenge the deaths of his teammates.  It's not about him so much as it is about doing right by those who died in the ambush. 

Zaeed, however, is out to avenge himself, and that's it.  And he doesn't care who or how many he may injure or kill along the way, because his revenge is all that matters.  It's all about him, period.

They're fundamentally different people.  Garrus is always thinking about everyone else in his command with every decision he makes.  Zaeed is always focused primarily on making sure he survives.

If I had to choose between the two (and I did), I'd much rather have the leader be someone who I know cares about those under his command.  The guy who has a 20+ year history of burning through people just to get the job done would be my last possible choice.

Modifié par FlyingBrickyard, 11 avril 2010 - 03:32 .

[Morinth]

Phaelducan wrote...

Even after choosing him to lead the first Fire Team Miranda even says "At least he knows what he's doing."

She also tells me that I was a wise choice as squad leader even though Mother and I have been alone for hundreds of years. Then she tells Shepard that she's fine with holding up the barrier herself, even though I'm much stronger than she is.

That little bitch needs to find herself a helper. Probably to help her think.

[TheTWF]

Not his fault that she stuck her stupid head through the door.

[janeym27]

IoCaster wrote...


.

janeym27 wrote...
In terms of actual combat leadership experience as exampled IN GAME, Garrus is really your lot. And the team he most famously led ended up a tad killed.

That is explained in the game in such a way that it's understood that Garrus was betrayed and drawn away from his team when they were killed. Would he have been able to save them if he were there? We can speculate that it's possible, but that's a moot point. We do know that he was able to successfully hold off three mercenary bands by himself after the fact. At least long enough for Shepard to get there and get him away to safety. Up to that point though it's explicitly made clear that he successfully lead his team in combat. He was so successful that the three merc bands found it necessary to combine their personnel and resources to take him down.

janeym27 wrote...
I think that with this universe, you have to base certain assertions off action and charactgerisation, since not all the information is provided all the time. Hell, in ME1 my Shepard wasbeing made a Spectre, and as far as I could tell herv defining characteristic was that she had managed to lose an entire squad to a Thesher Maw. Not exactly examplary career stuff there. I was forced to assume she had since done other stuff, or else acept that the Aliiance and Council were just freaking idiots. 

I certainly can't argue with that. I just prefer to have a logical and consistent foundation for any assumptions that I make.

janeym27 wrote...
But each to their own.

I agree. I would have replied to your post earlier but I got sidetracked with other matters. In any case, it's been a relatively amiable discussion so far and I'm grateful for it.

 I enjoy amiable discussion. I think that the game is set in such a way that no two interpretations can ever be exactly the same. Shall we agree to disagree, then? lol

To be clear: I wasn't trying to diss Garrus. I think it's very clear that the betrayal had nothing to do with his leadership or combat skills (even though he carries the blame like his own). I was just using it as a point to illustrate that by employing subjective interpretion, a person could find fault with the skills of any of the characters, Garrus and Shepard included. I love the Turian!

[Miranda Lawson]

Morinth wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Even after choosing him to lead the first Fire Team Miranda even says "At least he knows what he's doing."

She also tells me that I was a wise choice as squad leader even though Mother and I have been alone for hundreds of years. Then she tells Shepard that she's fine with holding up the barrier herself, even though I'm much stronger than she is.

That little bitch needs to find herself a helper. Probably to help her think.

I had hoped this would not lead to insults, but it did. The Illusive Man assigned me as the XO because I'm the leader of this whole project. It's not my fault if my decisions are made invalid by YOUR incompetence. There's nothing else I can do for you or Zaeed if you can't do your damn job.

Had Yeoman Chambers figured out your real identity sooner, I would have dropped your deceptive ass back in that pisshole known as Omega.

[Wildhide]

Phaelducan wrote...

Wildhide wrote...

One if the arguments for Zaeed being a good leader for the fire team I keep seeing is that in the loyalty mission he agrees to be a team player. Agree to work with your squad doesn't give him sudden leadership skills or make him a leader. It makes him a good follower, which he wasn't before. Easily seen in his loyalty mission when he stops listening to you and sets the refinery ablaze.

He doesn't strike me as a good leader at all, and being a mercenary for 20 years doesn't mean he has to be a good one. It means he's a good mercenary and he knows how to fight, that's it. Someone can work in management their whole life and just be good enough not to get fired. And you don't need the average shmuck that gets by on the tips of his fingers for a suicide mission.

Zaeed is an enforcer, that's what he's good at. He lost the Blue Suns because he was a poor leader and his second was better, allowing him to get their favor and take the organization from Zaeed. Zaeed's teams tend to die, not because he's a bad mercenary, but because he's a bad leader. He's far too used to worrying about his own ass and getting the job done to bother with things like keeping the other people alive.

He doesn't seem the sort to just let people die for no reason, but if he thinks it'll see his mission through he's clearly got no qualms about tossing a few bodies into the fire.

Actually, after reading some of the responses and thinking more about it, I think that Zaeed actually does fine at what he is asked to do. I can't think of any other reason than he is DLC and possible time constraints/lack of desire from BioWare that the Tech dies with him as Fire Team Leader. I think Miranda's stamp of approval right before you start is a clear indicator that Zaeed is extremely capable of getting three bodies through the slew of collectors safely and successfully. It's likely just a yes/no flag for whether or not the Tech dies, and Zaeed didn't get the yes flag with the other launch "optimal" leaders.

Not to belittle that post, as it was well thought out and concise/to the point, but I simply can't see all the work BioWare put into charactering Zaeed as a combat badass and extremely successful Mercenary mitigated by his... for lack of a better term.... renegade status. Shep is a perfect example of how Renegade is just as effective as Paragon in the ME universe.

Your post is basically asking us to accept the logic that BioWare only allows for success if the character in question leads "properly" or in other words as a paragon. Zaeed knows what's what, and there is no way the Tech would die if he was a launch squad mate. 

I'm sticking with simple oversight for the problem. No big deal, it's not the first time we've played games where the writers forced us into results we didn't like.

Edit: What's silly is that you get the same death scene whether or not the Tech is Loyal but bad leader or the Tech is not Loyal but good leader.

I see it slightly different.  You're comment suggests you that Bioware sees Zaeed as a bad leader because he's a renegade.  I think it's that he's a bad leader that happens to be a renegade.

Garrus is a good leader and a renegade from what I've seen.  He breaks the law or utterly ignores it, finds it better just to deal with things himself, and is hardly above beating, torture, or killing to get what he needs.  At the same time he's proven himself to be a very capable squad leader.

Zaeed hasn't.  He's still willing to beat, torture, kill, and ignore the law, but when he doesn't thinks don't work out nearly as well.  In fact, with all my experience of him and talking with him, things tend to get worse the more he takes matters into his own hands.

I don't think it was oversight, I think he was meant to show that being a renegade doesn't always work out.  Just like Samara (Pulling a random person off the top of my head) is a bad leader, despite being a paragon.

[Grunt Urdnot]

Zaeed Massani wrote...

Kasumi Goto wrote...

Miranda Lawson wrote...

Humans talk too much. Like the tank. Post more later.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Grunt Urdnot wrote...

Zaeed Massani wrote...

Kasumi Goto wrote...

Miranda Lawson wrote...

Humans talk too much. Like the tank. Post more later.

*wonders how many accounts Ecael has*

[Kaidan Alenko]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Grunt Urdnot wrote...

Zaeed Massani wrote...

Kasumi Goto wrote...

Miranda Lawson wrote...

Humans talk too much. Like the tank. Post more later.

*wonders how many accounts Ecael has*

ECAEL? The Efficiently Coded Artificial Extranet Leader?

I don't think that's a VI...

[DirtyVagrant]

Now it's just getting obscene...