234 réponses à ce sujet

[IoCaster]

FlyingBrickyard wrote...

I think another critical but often overlooked point is how both Garrus and Zaeed viewed and dealt with the loss of their squads.

For Zaeed, they were tools - a means to an end.  Take a loss here or there and it's no big deal.  It's all part of the job.  As long as he gets out and gets closer to his revenge, it's all good.

When you talk to him, it's almost as if he's proud that most of the time he's the only one who makes it out alive.    The dead squadmembers aren't given a second thought.

Garrus, on the other hand was crushed by the loss of his team and took personal responisibility for every death.  He was haunted by it, where Zaeed wears it like a badge of honor.

Garrus would trade his life for the life of anyone in his squad without hesitation.  Zaeed would trade the life of anyone in his squad to preserve his own with equal speed.

Sure, on the surface both look very similar in qualifications and experience, and even motivations - both have experience leading teams, both lost one or more teams under their command, both are highly skilled and both are on a personal mission of revenge.

But the key difference is their view of things. 

Garrus is driven to avenge the deaths of his teammates.  It's not about him so much as it is about doing right by those who died in the ambush. 

Zaeed, however, is out to avenge himself, and that's it.  And he doesn't care who or how many he may injure or kill along the way, because his revenge is all that matters.  It's all about him, period.

They're fundamentally different people.  Garrus is always thinking about everyone else in his command with every decision he makes.  Zaeed is always focused primarily on making sure he survives.

If I had to choose between the two (and I did), I'd much rather have the leader be someone who I know cares about those under his command.  The guy who has a 20+ year history of burning through people just to get the job done would be my last possible choice.

I wasn't attempting to make the case that Zaeed is a better choice for 2nd team leader than Garrus. I was simply stating that the known information presented in the game indicates that Zaeed has experience as a combat leader. There aren't any specific details regarding Miranda that would lead me to believe that she is similarly qualified or experienced.

In any case it wasn't a difficult or complicated mission. Whichever character you choose to lead the 2nd team will actually succeed in getting to the rendezvous with his/her squad intact. It's the tech that gets killed because that's what BioWare decided was an appropriate outcome for what, I have to assume, is a game design related reason. Eh, whatever.

I actually thought that the suicide mission structure was clever and I enjoyed it for what it was. I also think that in some fundamental ways, the execution of it could have been implemented better or more logically.

If the 2nd team leader were not qualified and/or non-loyal, then one or more of his/her squad members should have been killed instead of the tech.

If the tech that was chosen were not qualified and/or non-loyal, then the tech dies. That's what happens now and I'm good with that. If the tech is qualified and loyal then he/she should survive regardless of who is chosen to lead the 2nd team.

Remember that Shepard and his/her team bore the responsibility for opening the valves that enabled the tech to proceed through the pipe. I don't see the reasoning behind making it the responsibility of the 2nd team leader for the techs death. By the time it happens Shepard is on the scene and it's on his/her watch that it occurs.

If you make two bad choices then the bodies will start to stack up. Perhaps that's what they were concerned about and they decided to try to minimize losses early in the mission, but I'd have preferred it from a logical standpoint.

Oh well, it is what it is. Just because it didn't make much sense to me doesn't mean that I didn't have fun or enjoy the game.

[kraidy1117]

The reason why Miri, Garrus and Jacob don't lose anyone when they lead is because they are leaders. They have the experience to lead. Miri is one of Cerberus best operives and has donr many projects, Garrus was C-Sec and had his own group on Omega for a long time, and Jacob was Aliance. They can lead and know how. Zaeed is just a merc, he just wants his pay cheack and does not care about anyone else. Thats not leadership.

[IoCaster]

nvm

Modifié par IoCaster, 11 avril 2010 - 07:10 .

[Skilled Seeker]

KOKitten wrote...

Honestly I always thought it made no sense that Zaeed dies if you select him as your 2nd fire team leader.
I understand BioWare's reasoning that he's always been the sole survivor of his missions. So, if that's the case, Zaeed should survive as 2nd fire team leader and one or more members of the squad he's leading should die instead. Instead Zaeed dies. Looking at that makes you think he made sure his squad got to safety first. Bit of a contradiction.

Makes sense to me. He isn't used to looking after his squad's back but now that he is cautious thanks to him being loyal and seeing the bigger picture he tries hard to make sure they survive and in doing so lets down his own guard and bites the bullet. He mentions the irony of it in his last words 'figured it would end like this'.

[Eternalist]

If you listen to his dialogue in the cargo hold, he mentions a couple instances in which he is sent on various missions as a squad. When infiltrating the Verrikan, only he survived. When dropping blind into the Krogan DMZ, only a couple of his squad survives. Bear in mind he's more of a lone assassin, so he 's only really skilled at commando style assaults.

[KOKitten]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Makes sense to me. He isn't used to looking after his squad's back but now that he is cautious thanks to him being loyal and seeing the bigger picture he tries hard to make sure they survive and in doing so lets down his own guard and bites the bullet. He mentions the irony of it in his last words 'figured it would end like this'.

Now that DOES make sense.  It makes a hell of a lot more sense than explanations which just state "It's because he doesn't care about anyone else so he's going to die."

[Nu-Nu]

Zaeed is like Grunt, they're the muscles and rely on strength to get through missions, not tatics. They'll push forward but that causes them to lose focus on any tatics.

[DirtyVagrant]

The point of the second squad leader is to call for covering fire when the tech expert tries to seal the doors. I'm guessing Zaeed's been a mercenary too long to remember how to properly operate and manage a squad.

[cronshaw8]

It isn't that he doesn't care OP. He is just lethally reckless. Take for example his loyalty mission: blowing the pipes to open the door to the base is innovative and brilliant. But he nearly gets everyone killed (or gets a lot of people killed depending on how you play it). Zaeed has a lot of experience, but it all involves keeping himself alive not keeping a team alive.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

consider the bitoic part where he takes bullet for everyone. so he can lead and be heroic. Bioware probably just didn't really try since he's a dlc character. btw can Kasumi work as the vent person?

[ResidentNoob]

Zaeed isn't a good leader because the the last time that he was in charge of a group, his second-in-command convinced Zaeed's men to betray him and hold him still while he was shot in the head.

[Phaelducan]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

The point of the second squad leader is to call for covering fire when the tech expert tries to seal the doors. I'm guessing Zaeed's been a mercenary too long to remember how to properly operate and manage a squad.

Oh I doubt that. I'm sure that some of his missions entailed operating and managing a squad, likely some of them involved covering another squad. With that wealth of experience over such a long period of time, it just isn't plausible to assume he is unfamiliar with the parameters of the mission.

I think it is certainly plausible that he is out of practice watching someone else's back and having them watch his, but it's just unfair to the character to assume that such devotion and loyalty is simply beyond Zaeed. 

He should be able to run the second squad like a pro.

[_Jacob Taylor]

Phaelducan wrote...

DirtyVagrant wrote...

The point of the second squad leader is to call for covering fire when the tech expert tries to seal the doors. I'm guessing Zaeed's been a mercenary too long to remember how to properly operate and manage a squad.

Oh I doubt that. I'm sure that some of his missions entailed operating and managing a squad, likely some of them involved covering another squad. With that wealth of experience over such a long period of time, it just isn't plausible to assume he is unfamiliar with the parameters of the mission.

I think it is certainly plausible that he is out of practice watching someone else's back and having them watch his, but it's just unfair to the character to assume that such devotion and loyalty is simply beyond Zaeed. 

He should be able to run the second squad like a pro.

I'll have to disagree with you on that, Commander. My father became a different man in ten years, so you can't expect Massani to be the same in twenty. Gaining his loyalty won't do any good -- he's only covering his ass so he doesn't die. It's no wonder he always comes out alive when everyone else is a corpse.

The Fire Team leader is no easy task for the suicide mission. I volunteer. If you put Massani in command, you're taking a heavy risk.

Modifié par Jacob Taylor, 11 avril 2010 - 11:31 .

[SaltBot]

kraidy1117 wrote...

The reason why Miri, Garrus and Jacob don't lose anyone when they lead is because they are leaders. They have the experience to lead. Miri is one of Cerberus best operives and has donr many projects, Garrus was C-Sec and had his own group on Omega for a long time, and Jacob was Aliance. They can lead and know how. Zaeed is just a merc, he just wants his pay cheack and does not care about anyone else. Thats not leadership.

Agreed.  People are putting way too much emphasis on the "Fire Team" part, and not enough on the "Leader" part.

I don't see anyone up in arms over Thane being unsuitable, yet, next to Shepard (and possibly Samara), he is the most cool-headed and combat-capable cat on the whole ship, even exuding many of the qualities that good leaders have notoriously exhibited throughout history (calm under fire, intelligent, experienced, idealistically motivated and yet calculating in his actions).  So why can't Thane lead a fire team?  Because he's not a team player.  It doesn't matter that he joined Shepard's crew, that he's loyal, that he's focused on the mission, Thane has never played well with others.  "The Assassin" works solo.  It's his nature.  Same with Zaeed.  Heck, they even call him "The Mercenary".  Archetypical mercenaries (Zaeed to a 'T') are not known for their ability to lead the Big God-damn Heroes to victory.

[Xennhorn]

Lets all just agree, certain Characters were designed to encompass a specific role during the suicide battle, and who you choose, coupled with their loyalty and a few other choices can affect the overall outcome,

for instance, on my 3rd time through the game i had maxxed everyones loyalty and due to my maxed paragon i was able to keep both Miranda and Jack loyal after their fight, and settle the quarrel between Tali and legion fine with no downsides,

Enter the collector base, every upgrade baught, Garrus is my Fire team Leader, with Legion as my Tech guy, on my squad i take Massani and Miranda. Vent stage fine with no cassualties,

Biotic stage, Garrus 2nd Squad again, My squad same setup,, with samara as Bitotic shielder, no cassualties.

Now heres the kicker, for the final assault, where they hold the line everything was running smoothly i was thinking sweet this should end nicely, Mordin Solus is taken out holding the line ... guess he should have paid more attention to that other Salarian more (WE WILL HOLD THE LINE).. he was the only casualty, with no determinable reason why except bad luck from a stray bullet

Modifié par Xennhorn, 11 avril 2010 - 11:43 .

[Azint]

Jacob Taylor wrote...

I'll have to disagree with you on that, Commander. My father became a different man in ten years, so you can't expect Massani to be the same in twenty. Gaining his loyalty won't do any good -- he's only covering his ass so he doesn't die. It's no wonder he always comes out alive when everyone else is a corpse.

The Fire Team leader is no easy task for the suicide mission. I volunteer. If you put Massani in command, you're taking a heavy risk.

But the.... Oh never mind.

[_Samara]

Azint wrote...

Jacob Taylor wrote...

I'll have to disagree with you on that, Commander. My father became a different man in ten years, so you can't expect Massani to be the same in twenty. Gaining his loyalty won't do any good -- he's only covering his ass so he doesn't die. It's no wonder he always comes out alive when everyone else is a corpse.

The Fire Team leader is no easy task for the suicide mission. I volunteer. If you put Massani in command, you're taking a heavy risk.

But the.... Oh never mind.

By the prize I will serve you, Shepard. Your clichés are my clichés. Your memes are my memes. Your words are my post.

[Azint]

Samara wrote...

By the prize I will serve you, Shepard. Your clichés are my clichés. Your memes are my memes. Your words are my post.

Now now, with an attitude like that, we may never find that ardat-yakshi.

[IoCaster]

Xennhorn wrote...

Now heres the kicker, for the final assault, where they hold the line everything was running smoothly i was thinking sweet this should end nicely, Mordin Solus is taken out holding the line ... guess he should have paid more attention to that other Salarian more (WE WILL HOLD THE LINE).. he was the only casualty, with no determinable reason why except bad luck from a stray bullet

That's actually a game mechanic at work in that portion. The 'hold the line' segment has an unseen defense score for each character. If you don't keep enough heavy defenders on the line you'll lose people.

The funny stuff is how so many people are rationalizing why Zaeed is not qualified to lead the 2nd team based on their own assumptions. The reality is that BioWare decided which characters would fill that role. That's all there is to it. Based on the facts presented in the game Zaeed is qualified for the role. It's a very simple mission and he got the job done. He lead his team to the rendezvous with no losses. Any other character that you choose will do the same. The tech dies after the fact when Shepard is on the scene and in command. It's a gameplay mechanic and all of this speculation about Zaeed being a solitary merc or too selfish or whatever is meaningless.

If you choose a non-loyal Jacob, Miranda or Garrus to lead the 2nd team the tech dies as well. Are they suddenly unqualified to lead now? Or are they so unprofessional that they let themselves be distracted by daddy, sis or revenge issues? It's a simple gameplay mechanic and BioWare chose to have it play out that way for their own reasons.

Now don't get me wrong because I enjoyed the mission and the overall game, but I recognize it for what it is. If some of you folks have gotten so immersed and invested in the story that it makes sense to you then be happy and have fun. At the same time do try to understand that some of us are not as immersed and have a tough time believing the setup to some of these events. It's just a video game, it doesn't have to make sense and it's still fun for me.

:happy:

[OverlordNexas]

The techs' death in the suicide mission is their own damn fault. They stick their head out while they are under fire. Of course they're gonna die.

[KOKitten]

ResidentNoob wrote...

Zaeed isn't a good leader because the the last time that he was in charge of a group, his second-in-command convinced Zaeed's men to betray him and hold him still while he was shot in the head.

That really has nothing to do with leadership skills.  Vido wanted Zaeed out of way because the two disagreed over hiring Batarians into the Blue Suns.  Vido considered them cheaper labor; Zaeed considered them to be terrorists. 

At the end Vido even says it was not personal, just business.  Considering that there are three N7 missions in the game (Archaelogical Dig Site on Joab, MSV Strontium Mule, and Blue Suns Base) in which you find evidence of Vido Santiago double-crossing people who hired him that's possibly true.

Zaeed says he knew Vido was a sadistic bastard when they started the Blue Suns but apparently he was too confident or cocky to think Vido wouldn't go behind his back.  That was a mistake.  Then again, for someone who was supposedly such a shrewd businessman, Vido evidently wasn't smart enough to check for a pulse after shooting Zaeed so I guess everyone makes mistakes.

[Feixeno]

I'd like Vakarian's thoughts on Zaeed as squad leader.

Personally, I think Zaeed could lead the suicide mission, it's just he'd "Make out like a guddam bandit" with everyone else dead.

Modifié par Feixeno, 12 avril 2010 - 01:29 .

[Awcko]

I remember choosing Zaeed when I played. Everyone with him died, but at least he made out like a guddamn bandit.