234 réponses à ce sujet

[CrazyShuba]

Let's just put it this way.

Miranda and Garrus are the War Hero types. Take care of everyone and get everyone out.



Zaeed is more of the Ruthless route. Do whatever it takes to get the job done, as seen in his loyalty mission when he's willing to sacrifice the people just to kill Vido.



Obviously, he cares about the mission only, and doesn't care if anyone dies, as long as the job is done.

[IoCaster]

FlyingBrickyard wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

The funny stuff is how so many people are rationalizing why Zaeed is not qualified to lead the 2nd team based on their own assumptions. The reality is that BioWare decided which characters would fill that role. That's all there is to it. Based on the facts presented in the game Zaeed is qualified for the role. It's a very simple mission and he got the job done. He lead his team to the rendezvous with no losses. Any other character that you choose will do the same. The tech dies after the fact when Shepard is on the scene and in command. It's a gameplay mechanic and all of this speculation about Zaeed being a solitary merc or too selfish or whatever is meaningless.

If you choose a non-loyal Jacob, Miranda or Garrus to lead the 2nd team the tech dies as well. Are they suddenly unqualified to lead now? Or are they so unprofessional that they let themselves be distracted by daddy, sis or revenge issues? It's a simple gameplay mechanic and BioWare chose to have it play out that way for their own reasons.

Now don't get me wrong because I enjoyed the mission and the overall game, but I recognize it for what it is. If some of you folks have gotten so immersed and invested in the story that it makes sense to you then be happy and have fun. At the same time do try to understand that some of us are not as immersed and have a tough time believing the setup to some of these events. It's just a video game, it doesn't have to make sense and it's still fun for me.

:happy:

Your logic and rationalization is flawed, however.  To be successful, you need someone in that position who is both qualified to lead and fully focused on the task at hand (ie, loyal).

Zaeed is not qualified to lead the team, even if he's focused and trying his best.  He's just not leadership material, and that's why the tech dies.  It was Zaeed's job to make sure the fire team extracted themselves properly, and he failed at that job, which allowed the Collectors a break to return fire and take out the tech that was trying to close the door.

That it happened at the very last moment doesn't mean Zaeed did his job successfully.  He almost did, but unfortunately failed at the very last moment.

This is demonstrably not true. You may need to play that segment again or at least youtube it to confirm it for yourself. His team was already extracted and in position where they were supposed to be. The tech was trying to close the door that Shepard and his/her squad came through. Shepard was on the scene and should be in command at that point.

How is my logic flawed when if anyone is to be held accountable for leading the team at that stage it's Shepard? Zaeed, or any other 2nd team leader, has already completed their task by then. How then is he not qualified when he in fact completed the mission that he was tasked with? That's exactly why I consider it to be a pure gameplay mechanic and nonsensical. If they wanted to prove the concept of the 2nd team leader being incompetent for the role, then they should have had one or two of his/her squad get killed, not the tech. So it wasn't based on actual competence or loyalty, it was based on gimmick.

FlyingBrickyard wrote...
If anything, you're assuming more than anyone else, because there are mountains of evidence in the game that flat out tell you "Zaeed is not a good leader if squad survival is important."  You seem to want to ignore that because you seem determined that Zaeed is good at the job, therefore it's simply a game mechanic, when most players and Bioware themselves disagree with your assessment for all of the same reasons.

I've made it quite clear that, based on the evidence presented in the game, Zaeed is qualified to lead a combat team. There's more evidence for his qualification than there is for Miranda filling that role. Even taking into account his war stories and anecdotes, it's still a subjective call as to whether or not the player makes the determination that he's not good enough. Obviously, the 'mountains of evidence' that you cite weren't very convincing to quite a few players judging from how many people chose him to lead the 2nd team. If you want to make a case for people being too dumb to see the obvious then that's your prerogative.

The problem with this reasoning is that realistically it doesn't matter. Whichever character you choose for the role actually accomplishes the mission. It's a gameplay mechanic because the tech dies on Sheps watch and he/she bears the responsibility.

FlyingBrickyard wrote...
Technically, yes, it is a game mechanic.  Just as sending Grunt through the tunnels as your tech and failing would be a game mechanic.  They're game mechanics, yes, but with reason.  Grunt's not a tech, and Zaeed isn't a good leader.  That's why they fail.  It isn't some arbitrary whim of Bioware, it's because it's that's who those characters are, fundamentally.  Wishing them into that mould isn't going to make them suddenly fit, they just don't have the personalities or skills for it.

The main difference between these two decisions is that one is actually obvious while the other isn't. That's why I referred to Miranda in the first place. If the player is to make a determination of which one of the two is more qualified for the task then it's readily obvious, based on the facts presented in the game, that Zaeed is the intuitive choice. You and/or BioWare can't have it both ways here. If the player has to rely on the information they're given within the game itself then it needs to be made explicitly clear. Give us a detailed background brief on Miranda that includes the proof that she's a better combat leader than Zaeed.

What combat missions has she successfully lead in the past for Cerberus or heck any other group? The only information presented to us in the game is that she was the Lazarus Project manager. It's implied that she's done some other Cerberus jobs but we're not given any details. Were they combat oriented? Was she responsible for Akuze? Did she lead the team that set the beacon to lure Kahoku's men to their death? Was she responsible for kidnapping and killing Kahoku? She denies participating in terrorist acts, but that's what Cerberus is known for.

Do you see the dilemma here? They didn't make the case for Miranda to be qualified to lead in combat but we're supposed to assume that she's a better choice than Zaeed. They failed to convincingly make that case and so we're left to take it on faith that Miranda is qualified and Zaeed isn't. So let me ask you, who's making the baseless assumptions here? Because that's what BioWare is asking us to do if we have to conclude that Zaeed sucks as a combat leader but someone with no known qualifications is a better choice. 

FlyingBrickyard wrote...
I would agree to some extent that a tech death would ultimately fall on Shepard's shoulders however, since he's the ultimate leader of the entire group and if he picks someone who isn't a good leader to lead the fire team (like Zaeed), that means Shepard has failed as a good leader be cause he failed to correctly identify and assign roles based on the strengths of his crew.

I contend that Shepard was on the scene and that the 2nd squad leader has been relieved of responsibility for any subsequent actions that the full squad undertake at that point.

FlyingBrickyard wrote...
Using Grunt as your tech is a bad idea.  It's a lot more obviously bad than picking Zaeed as leader of the fire team, but both choices would be a failure of command on Shepard's part and fall under the general category of "bad decison" because neither are qualified for those jobs.

The problem is that the case for Zaeed not being qualified to lead the 2nd team wasn't made explicitly clear to a fair number of players. You can cite war stories, anecdotes or 'mountains of evidence' all you'd like but apparently that didn't make a very compelling case against him.

BioWare scripted the mission to account for certain roles being filled by particular squad members and I've already stated that I thought it was quite clever and fun. I think that the implementation wasn't as well done as it could have been. That's probably my biggest gripe with the game in general. The inconsistency from top to bottom in story, plot and execution. There's just too much stuff in the game that doesn't make sense to me.

[DuffyMJ]

Zaeed is private sector, he should fight far better and lead a squad better than volunteers... Even the US uses private contractors to protect VIP's in Iraq and Afghanistan, not US military people... Just sayin'...

[Pronema]

Eŀite

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Don't you think it says something that when Zaeed lost control of the Blue Suns, it was to their accountant? To the guy that handled their books? Zaeed says he handled the men... yet they shot him in the face.

So no, I don't think it is odd. :-)

Stalin was the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union before staging a coupe to take over instead of Leon Trolsky, the man Lenin intended to succeed him.

So yeah, a Secretary took over the Soviet Union.  It's not impossible.

[StefanBW]

Garrus Vakarian wrote...

stefanbw wrote...

Garrus can I have a higher resolution picture of your avatar? Great shot.

A compressed JPEG of a picture that blurs Turians. Why don't we ever get anything nice?

-snip-

Thank you Garrus!

[Speakeasy13]

Pronema wrote...
Eŀite

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Don't you think it says something that when Zaeed lost control of the Blue Suns, it was to their accountant? To the guy that handled their books? Zaeed says he handled the men... yet they shot him in the face.

So no, I don't think it is odd. :-)

Stalin was the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union before staging a coupe to take over instead of Leon Trolsky, the man Lenin intended to succeed him.

So yeah, a Secretary took over the Soviet Union.  It's not impossible.

The Blue Suns had hundreds of men and only 6 shot him in the face. Garrus had 10 people on his squad and 1 betrayed him. In either case that's more than enough to bring a leader down.

[archurban]

it's simple. don't use DLC characters like Zaeed, Kasumi as a team leader for suicidal mission. I bet one of them will be died. it's my experience. Don't do stupid.

[Phaelducan]

While I hardly think it was "stupid" to pick Zaeed for my third playthrough as a Leader, I do agree that Zaeed fails for the sole reason that he is DLC.



As previously discussed at length here, there just isn't enough information in the game to assume that Miranda is a better choice than Zaeed... to lead a combat mission.



The fact that he gets people killed at times is actually a spurious argument. Shepard gets people killed as well, that doesn't mean that he WILL get people killed.



Simple truth, if you tell a Mercenary of Zaeed's caliber that he has one specific job... lay down suppressing fire to get the second team through..... you can bank on him knowing how to do it properly.



It stretches credibility to think he just shanks it because that's his nature. Besides, at least Jack (and I bet Tali/Garrus as well) have serious issues with Miranda commanding. However, Miranda works fine, no one dies. It's just an arbitrary gameplay switch, one in place because Zaeed isn't core content, but DLC.There is no way he doesn't succeed if he was selectable without the Cerberus Network.



Kasumi is different because they've had several more months to work on it (I'm guessing).

[Skilled Seeker]

Phaelducan wrote...

While I hardly think it was "stupid" to pick Zaeed for my third playthrough as a Leader, I do agree that Zaeed fails for the sole reason that he is DLC.

As previously discussed at length here, there just isn't enough information in the game to assume that Miranda is a better choice than Zaeed... to lead a combat mission.

The fact that he gets people killed at times is actually a spurious argument. Shepard gets people killed as well, that doesn't mean that he WILL get people killed.

Simple truth, if you tell a Mercenary of Zaeed's caliber that he has one specific job... lay down suppressing fire to get the second team through..... you can bank on him knowing how to do it properly.

It stretches credibility to think he just shanks it because that's his nature. Besides, at least Jack (and I bet Tali/Garrus as well) have serious issues with Miranda commanding. However, Miranda works fine, no one dies. It's just an arbitrary gameplay switch, one in place because Zaeed isn't core content, but DLC.There is no way he doesn't succeed if he was selectable without the Cerberus Network.

Kasumi is different because they've had several more months to work on it (I'm guessing).

Wrong. Kasumi was created before the game was released and she was always meant to succeed in the vents. So 'its because Zaeed is DLC' isn't an excuse. Bioware obviously felt he wasn't leadership material. I have given my view in this thread if you care to read it.

[Phaelducan]

I have read your opinion, several times. It was intelligent, well presented, and concise. I just disagree with your conclusion.



I am also aware that Kasumi wasn't a "new" creation, but she is a "new" implementation, whereas Zaeed was available as an add-on from day 1. Likely when they were programming that segment, it may not have been a high priority for Zaeed to get the same flags for success as the other leaders.



Kasumi, on the other hand, came out nearly a full third of a year later, and since it was very short and arguably short on content anyway, it likely would have had a high priority to get flagged for success (BioWare likely really didn't want to deal with arguments from fans about how/why Kasumi could NOT succeed as the Tech).



I don't claim to know the minds of the developers, but it certainly is plausible that the two DLC characters simple due to timing and circumstance received different treatment. In any case, I think the point has been made that a lot of people picked Zaeed for a leader. You can think we are all foolish if you want, or you could admit that the evidence presented for Zaeed vs. Miranda is at the very least questionable for the results of the mission... if not outright misleading.



Miranda does not have combat experience that we know of. Period. Anything else is conjecture/wishful thinking.

Zaeed DOES have combat experience, more than anyone else in the game. Putting more into his failure is also conjecture/wishful thinking.

Conjecture and wishful thinking are certainly valid ways to approach a subject, but in and of themselves are not enough to invalidate another point of view.



I respectfully maintain that Zaeed, based on the information presented in the game, should be a valid choice for that segment to succeed. The fact that he isn't is arbitrary, and not supported by in-game evidence (which is fine, and I really enjoyed the game anyway).

[Skilled Seeker]

But Kasumi's lines for the suicide mission and her flag for success are already in the game before the kasumi DLC is installed. So I don't see why Zaeed couldn't have got the same treatment had Bioware wanted him to succeed as fire squad leader.

And for the record I also picked Zaeed for leader on my first playthrough so I am not disagreeing the he shouldn't be able to lead but what I am saying is I can see why Bioware did not make him out to be a good leader.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 12 avril 2010 - 05:29 .

[FlyingBrickyard]

Phaelducan wrote...

I respectfully maintain that Zaeed, based on the information presented in the game, should be a valid choice for that segment to succeed. The fact that he isn't is arbitrary, and not supported by in-game evidence (which is fine, and I really enjoyed the game anyway).

The problem is that it is supported by tons of in game evidence, and you'd have to be blind or willfully ignoring it not to see it.

As for Miranda, I agree, there's little to no evidence that she'd be an effective combat leader either.  In fact, I question her leadership ability in general based on what I saw of her in the game.  Most of her advice was flat out wrong.  She may be great in an administrative "paperwork and oversight" role, but when it comes to judging people and situations, not so much, IMO, despite her claims of "never being wrong".

Which is why I didn't put her in charge of anything on the final run.  She wasn't fire team leader, she definitely wasn't my choice as biotic.  She was simply along for the ride with many others.  Garrus and Jacob lead my teams, and Jack was my choice for biotic.

Whether or not Miranda was actually a good choice is irrelevant to the Zaeed case.  Zaeed stands alone in the evaluation.  And in that he comes up lacking.  He never successfully lead a large, complex organization, he frequently failed to properly lead a smaller one on multiple occasions.  He's a great survivor.  He's not a great leader.

But all of that aside, Miranda at least demonstrated the ability to lead a complex long term project (Lazarus), and it's safe to assume she had repeatedly proven herself before being handed the keys to what was likely considered the most important project Cerberus had ever undertaken, and (by extension, at least from the Cerberus POV), the most important project in human history.

So she's obviously qualified as a leader by some significant definition.    But again, none of that matters in the question of "Is Zaeed good leadership material?"  The answer to that is clearly no.

Modifié par FlyingBrickyard, 12 avril 2010 - 11:31 .

[IoCaster]

FlyingBrickyard wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

I respectfully maintain that Zaeed, based on the information presented in the game, should be a valid choice for that segment to succeed. The fact that he isn't is arbitrary, and not supported by in-game evidence (which is fine, and I really enjoyed the game anyway).

The problem is that it is supported by tons of in game evidence, and you'd have to be blind or willfully ignoring it not to see it.

Here's your mountain or tons of evidence from Zaeed dialogue and anecdotes:

Citadel, at Rodam Expeditions. After seeing a big gun exhibited in the shop, Zaeed will recall how he and a group of mercenaries once worked to take down a krogan armed with a weapon like this one. The krogan managed to kill most of the mercenaries, leading Zaeed to admire this gun.

According to Zaeed, his first "suicide mission" was to lead a squad of five other men to take down a turian frigate, the Verrikan, from the inside, their equipment being whatever they brought themselves. Zaeed says that the mission was a success, though every other member in the squad died, he himself being the only survivor.

Zaeed will reveal that he has a grudging respect for the hanar after he was ambushed and nearly strangled to death by one.

Provided that Mordin Solus is recruited into the team, Zaeed will recall that he once knew a very skilled salarian tech specialist and will compare Mordin to him.

If you activate the Blood Pack helmet on his table, Zaeed will tell you that he pried that off the former Blood Pack leader himself and kept it as a reward. He explains that the krogan tried to hijack a freighter he was hitching a ride on. Zaeed recalls this was a terrible mistake, as he challenged the krogan to a one-on-one duel, he then remarks he made the very same krogan watch helplessly (he had "taken out" it's legs during the duel) as he continued to wipe out the rest of the Blood Pack squad, and the look on the krogan's face made his helmet worthy of keeping as a memento.

Zaeed tells the commander that he and a group of mercenaries once had to take out a gun nest. And one group member had the "crazy idea" of kidnapping a local girl, strap grenades to her and let her seduce the gun nest crew. But the group managed to sneak past while the girl was sent on her suicide mission, Zaeed doesn't know what happened to her.

Zaeed tells Shepard that he once had a relationship with an asari, until she sold him to the Blood Pack.

After the mission on Horizon, Zaeed will say that the fight was a tough one.

After the Collector Ship mission, Zaeed will comment on his job as a mercenary and an assassin. He says that the recent revelation of the Collectors and the Reapers make all the local conflicts seem insignificant.

After Zaeed's own loyalty mission he will mention the outcome of the mission, thanking the commander if it was successful.

After Jack's recruitment mission Zaeed will mention how he could have used a "destructive little ****" like that on a previous job of his.

After Jacob's loyalty mission Zaeed will comment on Jacob's dad and dealing with despots.

After Archangel's recruitment mission Zaeed will remark on how Shepard knew Archangel from before, and how he never saw the point in wanting Archangel killed as they both wanted the same thing - lots of mercenaries dead.

After the Normandy's crew are taken by the collectors Zaeed will mention that Joker did a good job for a kid with glass bones, and says he should have come down to Zaeed's room and got a real weapon.

I see one suicide mission listed where he lead a team with him being the sole survivor. The way the mission is described it's not made evident in any way that the rest of his team died as a result of faulty leadership on his part. It sounds like a tough mission with six men trying to gain control of a Turian frigate. It's a wonder that anyone survived.

In any case, that appears to me to be more of a molehill than a 'mountain of evidence' to rely on if you're trying to make the case that he's presented as an incompetent combat leader.

Maybe there's some more dialogue or anecdotes in the game that I've missed. If you know of any that isn't listed and that strengthens your case, then by all means post it in this thread. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree that the evidence so far presented is sufficient reason to claim that Zaeed is depicted as unqualified to lead a combat team.

[Phaelducan]

Agreeing to disagree seems to be the likely outcome at this point. Those of us who don't buy Zaeed as an incompetent leader and those of us who think he has no business leading a squad aren't likely to see eye to eye.



Opinions and forums being what they are, it's also unlikely that people will fail to see their "body of evidence" as anything other than God's honest truth.



Still..... "Hell of a discussion." (In Zaeed's voice).

[FlyingBrickyard]

Your list isn't complete, and while this is apparently missing at least 1 story, it covers most of them:



If you can stand the boredom of listening through all of it, there are 3 or 4 mentions of "squad" activities in there (situations where Zaeed was acting as part of a group) and one or more people didn't come out of it alive.

Which, taken with the bit you bolded, suggests that at the least, Zaeed isn't good at watching people's backs.  Then throw in his conduct on his loyalty mission and it's very clear he's a survivor and a 'get the job done at any cost, nothing matters but the outcome' kind of guy.  He does things the quick and easy way, not the "right" way.

(EDIT:  It's 4 situations. The Turian ship; When he talks about Jack, which is immediately followed by a mention of dropping into a Krogan DMZ; Fighting the Krogan Battlemaster who had a "peashooter"; and the Bar/club fight)

Not the type of person you want in a leadership role. 

There's a huge difference between giving people commands and leading them.

To claim that Zaeed should be a good leader because he spent his life as a merc is like claiming Grunt should be a great tech because he spent his life in a lab surrounded by high tech equipment.  Simple exposure to a particular environment doesn't automatically mean you'll be good at that thing you're exposed to.

Zaeed's track record with people just isn't good.

Even if he does turn himself around, change his outlook and start to care at the end of his loyalty mission, that still gives him zero prior experience being a leader "the right way".

Zaeed focuses on his objective to the exclusion of all else.  He gets distracted from paying attention to anything but himself and his target, much like Grunt. 

He's great in a fight so long as he's in a position where he only has to take care of himself.  In any sort of command role or position where he has to watch out for someone else as well, he's not that good.

Modifié par FlyingBrickyard, 13 avril 2010 - 03:16 .

[IoCaster]

FlyingBrickyard wrote...

Your list isn't complete, and while this is apparently missing at least 1 story, it covers most of them:



If you can stand the boredom of listening through all of it, there are 3 or 4 mentions of "squad" activities in there (situations where Zaeed was acting as part of a group) and one or more people didn't come out of it alive.

Well I watched all 9:10 of that video and can only conclude that the molehill has actually shrunk in size as a consequence. There was nothing new in that video that contradicted what I had already posted. I urge people to follow the link, watch the video and draw their own conclusion.  

FlyingBrickyard wrote...
Which, taken with the bit you bolded, suggests that at the least, Zaeed isn't good at watching people's backs.  Then throw in his conduct on his loyalty mission and it's very clear he's a survivor and a 'get the job done at any cost, nothing matters but the outcome' kind of guy.  He does things the quick and easy way, not the "right" way.

Not the type of person you want in a leadership role. 

There's a huge difference between giving people commands and leading them.

To claim that Zaeed should be a good leader because he spent his life as a merc is like claiming Grunt should be a great tech because he spent his life in a lab surrounded by high tech equipment.  Simple exposure to a particular environment doesn't automatically mean you'll be good at that thing you're exposed to.

Zaeed's track record with people just isn't good.

Even if he does turn himself around, change his outlook and start to care at the end of his loyalty mission, that still gives him zero prior experience being a leader "the right way".

Zaeed focuses on his objective to the exclusion of all else.  He gets distracted from paying attention to anything but himself and his target, much like Grunt. 

He's great in a fight so long as he's in a position where he only has to take care of himself.  In any sort of command role or position where he has to watch out for someone else as well, he's not that good.

I'm almost positive that you're aware of the fact that he's a fictional character. What you just wrote is so much subjective twaddle that it's breathtaking. Why in the world would you post this fanciful analysis and expect anyone to accept your opinion as definitive proof that Zaeed is unqualified to lead a combat team. The facts as presented in the game are clear that he is an experienced combat leader. None of the anecdotes or war stories Zaeed relates invalidate his overall qualifications as a combat leader.

The only reason that he's not a viable choice is because BioWare decided that, in spite of his background, they wanted Jacob, Miranda and Garrus to fill that role. If it was the writers intent to dissuade players from choosing Zaeed based on his dialogue then it failed on a fundamental level. Based on the number of people that chose him for the role their effort obviously wasn't very successful.

When all is said and done, it's their game and their choice. I really don't have a problem with that. *shrug*

Modifié par IoCaster, 13 avril 2010 - 04:24 .

[smudboy]

FlyingBrickyard wrote...

Your list isn't complete, and while this is apparently missing at least 1 story, it covers most of them:



If you can stand the boredom of listening through all of it, there are 3 or 4 mentions of "squad" activities in there (situations where Zaeed was acting as part of a group) and one or more people didn't come out of it alive.

I found it hilarious and entertaining.  This guy's seen more combat than Shepard.  Obviously, not along the same "pay grade," of course.

Which, taken with the bit you bolded, suggests that at the least, Zaeed isn't good at watching people's backs.  Then throw in his conduct on his loyalty mission and it's very clear he's a survivor and a 'get the job done at any cost, nothing matters but the outcome' kind of guy.  He does things the quick and easy way, not the "right" way.

He's definitely a badass, but he doesn't come across as uncaring as some of the Renegade actions Shepard takes.

I don't know where you get he's a "nothing matters but the outcome" kind of fellow, to the point where he sacrifices his team.  There are stories were his teams die, but there's no indication that's because of him.

(EDIT:  It's 4 situations. The Turian ship; When he talks about Jack, which is immediately followed by a mention of dropping into a Krogan DMZ; Fighting the Krogan Battlemaster who had a "peashooter"; and the Bar/club fight)

Not the type of person you want in a leadership role. 

If he knows what to do against a Krogan, I wouldn't mind him going up against a small army of Collectors.

There's a huge difference between giving people commands and leading them.

To claim that Zaeed should be a good leader because he spent his life as a merc is like claiming Grunt should be a great tech because he spent his life in a lab surrounded by high tech equipment.  Simple exposure to a particular environment doesn't automatically mean you'll be good at that thing you're exposed to.

No that's illogical.

For example, when I want someone to make me a chair, I ask a master carpenter that has been making chairs all their life, because I want the best.  I bet they've had apprentices or taught people to do so, too.

Those clips showed us just how much combat experience this guy has.  Ordering people with less experience than himself is one of the many roles of a leader.  There's no indication he'll want to get anyone killed, but there's no indication he particularily cares for them either.  This is because he's a professional.  If anything, those under him would respect him.

Although I would point out to his appreciation of Jack and Joker, being a "helluva girl", and that he would've "layed up in bed" if it was him.

Zaeed's track record with people just isn't good.

Even if he does turn himself around, change his outlook and start to care at the end of his loyalty mission, that still gives him zero prior experience being a leader "the right way".

In either the Paragon or Renegade solution to that loyalty mission, Zaeed trusts, or at least respects and accepts Shepard.  Couple that with the loyalty of the other team being loyal to Shepard, so if Shepard tells the team to follow Zaeed, I don't see how they'd have a problem with that.

Zaeed focuses on his objective to the exclusion of all else.  He gets distracted from paying attention to anything but himself and his target, much like Grunt. 

He's great in a fight so long as he's in a position where he only has to take care of himself.  In any sort of command role or position where he has to watch out for someone else as well, he's not that good.

I don't see Grunt like Zaeed at all.  Grunt just wants to kill things because he enjoys it, and has been doing so for what, a few days?  Zaeed's a hardened badass veteran who has more knowledge of the violent universe than anyone else.

If Zaeed's great in taking care of himself, he should be able to give excellent commands to keep others alive, too.

I've no idea what you're talking about of "Zaeed focuses on his objective to the exclusion of all else.  etc."

I thought the knowledge that Zaeed founded the Blue Suns and dealt specifically with the men as their leader would've been more than enough evidence for him being a team leader, at least, more than Jacob or Miranda.  Garrus is like a mini-Zaeed; still badass, but not even coming close.

Modifié par smudboy, 13 avril 2010 - 05:07 .

[Sajuro]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Zaeed succeeds at missions. Unfortunately, he doesn't do so in the cleanest fashion. All his stories seem to have an element of "and I was the only one who made it out alive" to them. Not to mention that the mercenary organization he built got stolen out from under him by his 2nd in command.

I thin Zaeed's great, but I wouldn't put him in charge of making me a sandwich. I come back, and find the kitchen on fire, hostages taken, and multiple casualties on both sides. I'd get my sandwich, sure, but it'd be tough to enjoy eating it.

I don't know, have you ever had the blood of the innocents on the hands of your sandwich maker? it can be pretty tasty. I can see that scenario

Kelly: commander, you're needed down on the third floor.
-Shepard goes down to the third floor only to find the area a warzone with Zaeed in the middle of it-
Shepard: Zaeed, what the hell?
Zaeed: I went to make a sandwich.
Shepard: Is that.. oh my god it is, you F***ing killed Thane!
Zaeed: The fire started and that's when it all went to hell.
Shepard:WHAT! what point did you use flames, you have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich!
Zaeed: Jack, Grunt, and me came up for a snack run, and I was the only one who made it out alive.

[Michael Athelstan]

The only thing that bothered me about Zaeed not being a good fire team leader is that he gives the same "Suppressing fire!" command as Garrus does. So while he doesn't possess or inspire the loyalty needed to be an effective leader, he DOES know the tactics.

[Massadonious1]

One of the evolutions of Miranda's class power is "Cerberus Leader"



Just sayin'

[IoCaster]

One of the evolutions of Zaeed's class power is "Mercenary Warlord"



Just sayin'

[Massadonious1]

Those two statements contradict each other, at least in Zaeed's case.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Meh, I personally don't see the issue with Zaeed getting his squad killed during the suicide mission. Because he has seen more combat than Shepard still does not mean he is capable of watching people's backs. As others keep pointing out, people do have a tendency to die around him, one way or another.

I feel like this is an issue of discipline more than paragon/renegade. It's not simply that Zaeed is a Renegade, otherwise renegade Shepard would run into the same issues as well; it's a matter of training. Both Shepard and Jacob for example originally began with the Alliance. They received a very organized, disciplined training regiment. Miranda I have no argument for why she's considered a leader beyond being a 'Cerberus Operative'. But this is why I can see Shepard (even as renegade) pulling it off. He may be willing to let people die, but he knows precisely what to do if he wants to minimize those costs.

Zaeed, while effective, seems to have learned the art of 'survival' more than anything else. He's a bad-ass, but this does not make him effective in understanding how to run a combat operation. It's for the same reason why I can't see Samara, Mordin, or Thane filling the role. If combat experience was all it required, pretty much any character could pull it off except maybe Grunt. Shepard/Jacob/Garrus give me the impression of the disciplined Roman Legions, while Zaeed is that of a barbarian. Think Rome: Total War.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 13 avril 2010 - 06:41 .

[Terraneaux]

It would have made sense for Zaeed to have been able to fill that role. Unfortunately, Bioware got lazy and didn't set that trigger to 'yes.' Oh well.

[KOKitten]

And according to Bioware's profile of Zaeed, he served in the Alliance military prior to founding the Blue Suns. So he still has the combat training.

http://masseffect.bi...se/squad/zaeed/

Besides, bad leadership of the first fire team could make sense for the tech's death.

The second fire team leader dying makes less sense and not just for Zaeed. Thane also will die if chosen as the second fire team leader.

I can sorta buy the explanation that the second fire team leader isn't used to leading a squad and has his/her guard down and takes the bullet.

However, it still would have made a lot more sense for someone else on the second fire squad to die instead of the leader. I'm thinking Bioware wrote it the opposite way so that people were not annoyed to have a random squad death due to their leadership choice.

But people like Zaeed, who has been surviving against stacked odds for 20 years, and Thane, who we met taking out a building of mercs by himself and is a virtual shadow, should have been able to survive in the Collector base. Bad squad leadership should have gotten people on their squads killed instead.