121 réponses à ce sujet

[Mir5]

Geth is as alive as we are. Only difference is that it has lesser illusion of individuality.

Imagine yourself without any kind of senses. Then imagine that you had no memories. What would be left but few basic instincts trapped in a void? What else could you then become?
We are all part of humanity, humanity is our culture, culture is thoughts, we are thoughts.
Thoughts cannot exist in a void. Humans are resonators that adapt to their surroundings, receiving ideas, modifying them to their own needs, and then sending them away. It propably started as something as simple as a particle collision, sending out a shockwave, shockwave changes environment and environment changes it, time passes, ripples have grown more complex, more data is traveling.

Offtopic: OP, what is your signature about?

Modifié par Mir5, 11 avril 2010 - 10:37 .

[Nostradamoose]

They are not alive and they are not simulating life, they are something else.

[Kaiser Shepard]

The Mass Effect games and especially the second should have dealt with the question "What is life?" or "What does it mean to be alive?" Not only because of the presence of the geth and other synthethics such as EDI or even the Reapers consuming entire galaxies, but because Shepard being brought back from the death.



I can only hope that last sentence is grammatically correct.

[UpDownLeftRight]

Mir5 wrote...

Geth is as alive as we are. Only difference
is that it has lesser illusion of individuality.

Imagine yourself
without any kind of senses. Then imagine that you had no memories. What
would be left but few basic instincts trapped in a void? What else
could you then become?
We are all part of humanity, humanity is our
culture, culture is thoughts, we are thoughts.
Thoughts cannot exist
in a void. Humans are resonators that adapt to their surroundings,
receiving ideas, modifying them to their own needs, and then sending
them away. It propably started as something as simple as a particle
collision, sending out a shockwave, shockwave changes environment and
environment changes it, time passes, ripples have grown more complex,
more data is traveling.

Offtopic: OP, what is your signature
about?

From a philosophical perspective that was interesting.


Your question: Oh, haha. There was some dude/dudette who created a topic about the scientific inaccuracy in Mass Effect 2. Did this person criticize noise in space, FTL-travel? No, the individual criticized the fact that the black hole looked like it did. A consensus of the responses was that it is supposed to/does look like that. The forumite SmokePants wrote that as a reply to the OP of the thread.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

The Mass Effect games and especially the second should have dealt with the question "What is life?" or "What does it mean to be alive?" Not only because of the presence of the geth and other synthethics such as EDI or even the Reapers consuming entire galaxies, but because Shepard being brought back from the death.

I can only hope that last sentence is grammatically correct.

That is something I can agree with. Nobody ever questioned him, Legion, EDI etc. about that.

Haha, sorry for the "kick in the quad" but it's not. It is either "being brought back from death" or "being brought back from the dead."

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 12 avril 2010 - 12:25 .

[Nightwriter]

I know I think of them as alive.



They are able to learn, grow, evolve, have their own opinions... that really settles it for me.

[Srau]

In my book, when someone or in this case something comes asking on its own questions like "who am i ?" or "why am i here ?" then it is sentient  and has the basic tools to start feeling.

To the question "what is life in the ME universe ?"  the answer is pretty much clear in the second game : it is
biological (us of course) but also mechanical (Geths building their own future) and finally ... both (Reapers, like stated by EDI).

Now the real question should rather be something like  "what does it mean to be alive ?".
A question only a *living dead* like Shepard or a *manufactured* milions years old entity like Harbinger could start to answer.

Modifié par Srau, 12 avril 2010 - 12:28 .

[Inverness Moon]

Jedi Sensei wrote...

WarChicken touched on the scientific understanding, though I disagree with some of the assessment. In particular, Geth have no 'hereditary material' and do not possess the 'basic units of life,' cells. This could expose a kind of 'organic bias' to our descriptions of 'life,' but at the same time there must be a distinction because there is a difference (between 'organic' and 'inorganic life').

So fundamentally the Geth cannot be considered 'alive' in the same sense as organics, but the issue is really whether their sentience grants them special consideration and the rights/privileges afforded to 'living beings.' And I say, why not?

There is more than one definition for 'alive'. The organic definition would not apply to geth for obvious reasons, they do not require the same things as organics to be alive. As far as I'm concerned, the geth are alive when they're functioning properly and dead when they're not, just like organics. There is not a real need to get into any more detail than that basic condition.

The question of sentience is the more important question in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, if you're sentient you're alive. Fitting the organic definition of life is unnecessary. Geth are quite clearly sentience as observed and as the codex has said.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

The Mass Effect games and especially the second should have dealt with the question "What is life?" or "What does it mean to be alive?" Not only because of the presence of the geth and other synthethics such as EDI or even the Reapers consuming entire galaxies, but because Shepard being brought back from the death.

I can only hope that last sentence is grammatically correct.

I'm sure this will be covered in ME3. It had better be covered in ME3. 

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 avril 2010 - 12:42 .

[Nostradamoose]

As for me, it cannot die naturaly, therefore it is not alive. It is artificial, it is never born and it never dies. It just is, it is not alive, it is different.



Applying life and death concepts to it is just a fallacy.

[Nightwriter]

Of course they're life.

What most people disagree about is whether they are a form of life on a level with our own. If their lives mean as much as ours.

I think they do.

[Nostradamoose]

They can be reprogrammed, they can be left unplugged for hundreds of years (IE lifeless) and come back to life normally right after. They are machines, they are not alive. At least, not to me.

[Nostradamoose]

Only the desire of prolonging existence, Note, I didnt write life.

[Inverness Moon]

Nostradamoose wrote...

As for me, it cannot die naturaly, therefore it is not alive. It is artificial, it is never born and it never dies. It just is, it is not alive, it is different.

Applying life and death concepts to it is just a fallacy.

What do you mean geth cannot die naturally?

Methinks people are unnecessarily applying complicated philosophical definitions to life, when it is unnecessary, it just muddies the simple definition of life that is irrelevant in the face of sentience.

Nostradamoose wrote...

Only the desire of prolonging existence, Note, I didnt write life.

Same thing.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 avril 2010 - 01:03 .

[Nightwriter]

Then why do they grow, evolve, learn? Why do they study music and seek to understand their creators?

They're more than you give them credit for, Nostradamoose.

[Inverness Moon]

Nostradamoose wrote...

They can be reprogrammed, they can be left unplugged for hundreds of years (IE lifeless) and come back to life normally right after. They are machines, they are not alive. At least, not to me.

Organics can be reprogrammed, it just takes more time and effort, as Legion said. Shepard was dead for two years and he was brought back to life for ME2.

[Nostradamoose]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nostradamoose wrote...

As for me, it cannot die naturaly, therefore it is not alive. It is artificial, it is never born and it never dies. It just is, it is not alive, it is different.

Applying life and death concepts to it is just a fallacy.

What do you mean geth cannot die naturally?

Methinks people are unnecessarily applying complicated philosophical definitions to life, when it is unnecessary, it just muddies the simple definition of life that is irrelevant in the face of sentience.

It is intelligence, it is sentient but it is stored data that can be replicated and changed at will. It has no DNA, no organic function, just machine.

A virus is not considered life, yet it has DNA or RNA. It is inert unless it infects a cell. Here, what we have is something similar, the Geth is a program, it is inert unless it is activated inside a machine. In real life, I would not consider it any differently than a person, simply for the fact that it is sentient, but I will never say it is alive.

[Inverness Moon]

Nostradamoose wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nostradamoose wrote...

As for me, it cannot die naturaly, therefore it is not alive. It is artificial, it is never born and it never dies. It just is, it is not alive, it is different.

Applying life and death concepts to it is just a fallacy.

What do you mean geth cannot die naturally?

Methinks people are unnecessarily applying complicated philosophical definitions to life, when it is unnecessary, it just muddies the simple definition of life that is irrelevant in the face of sentience.

It is intelligence, it is sentient but it is stored data that can be replicated and changed at will. It has no DNA, no organic function, just machine.

Whether or not it is organic is not relevant. It has a state of operation and a state of non-operation, life and death.

Nostradamoose wrote...

A virus is not considered life, yet it has DNA or RNA. It is inert unless it infects a cell. Here, what we have is something similar, the Geth is a program, it is inert unless it is activated inside a machine. In real life, I would not consider it any differently than a person, simply for the fact that it is sentient, but I will never say it is alive.

Organics are inert unless they have a source of energy (oxygen, etc.), and something to initialize operation, just like with the geth. Your observations are selective, and you're overlooking simple truths in order for geth to fit your definition of not being alive.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 avril 2010 - 01:17 .

[Nightwriter]

Don't all AIs need a quantum blue box or something to house them?

If each geth is an AI, does that mean each one has its own blue box?

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...

Of course they're life.

What most people disagree about is whether they are a form of life on a level with our own. If their lives mean as much as ours.

I think they do.

I disagree. An individual Geth unit is not even an individual "person." The Geth are programs which can be shared, duplicated, downloaded, and uploaded. Legion even says that the Geth are "we" and Legion is not "I." Would you save a single Geth or a single child? Which one has more value? The child will die forever. The Geth will live on with programs, and will not feel pain or emotion. But you can be sure as hell certain the child will.

[Sigma Tauri]

I don't think so. Geth intellectual capacities are emergent from the instability of the geth network.

[Inverness Moon]

Nightwriter wrote...

Don't all AIs need a quantum blue box or something to house them?

If each geth is an AI, does that mean each one has its own blue box?

This is explained in-game. AI's like EDI are a combination of hardware and software, like organics. Geth are purely software, they can operate on any sufficient hardware.

Here is a quote I keep handy from the in-game codex:

Codex: Geth Technology

The most difficult aspect of geth existence for organics to comprehend is that a body is meaningless to geth. The biped form commonly perceived as a geth is nothing more than a "mobile platform." A geth's software -- hundreds of programs whose interactions mimic organic consciousness -- can be installed in any given hardware. The geth that was a bipedal soldier an hour ago may now be a quadruped heavy armature and, in another hour, might be a starship. Between tasks, geth programs upload to gigantic space station mainframes that allow billions of programs to exchange thoughts and memories with minimal lag.

The claim that the geth are an example of the extreme risk posed by AI development is misleading. As opposed to the "top down" design of organic-created AIs, in which hardware and software are specifically designed to achieve consciousness, geth are a "bottom up" model. They were never intended to possess more than animal-level, trainable reasoning.

Designed as VI-driven robots -- not significantly different from modern security mechs -- geth consciousness developed as their adaptive learning programs interact with one another via networked processing. The geth code-base discovered that three individual robots using a wirelsss local network to form a single mind could perform many tasks more efficiently than they could as individuals. As these local networks were more heavily exploited, they reached a critical mass of processing, achieving consciousness.

Modern geth retain this remarkable interconnectivity, constantly exhancing data with one another and networking to increase their cognitive abilities. To geth,these mind-sharing abilities are as natural and unconscious as breathing is to most organics.

Collider wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Of course they're life.

What most people disagree about is whether they are a form of life on a level with our own. If their lives mean as much as ours.

I think they do.

I disagree. An individual Geth unit is not even an individual "person." The Geth are programs which can be shared, duplicated, downloaded, and uploaded. Legion even says that the Geth are "we" and Legion is not "I." Would you save a single Geth or a single child? Which one has more value? The child will die forever. The Geth will live on with programs, and will not feel pain or emotion. But you can be sure as hell certain the child will.

An individual geth may not be a person, but a collective is, Legion being the prime example.

Perhaps a more interesting question for you. If you had to choose between saving the life of a child or saving the lives of all geth in existence, which would you choose?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 avril 2010 - 01:27 .

[Sigma Tauri]

Nostradamoose wrote...
It is intelligence, it is sentient but it is stored data that can be replicated and changed at will. It has no DNA, no organic function, just machine.

A virus is not considered life, yet it has DNA or RNA. It is inert unless it infects a cell. Here, what we have is something similar, the Geth is a program, it is inert unless it is activated inside a machine. In real life, I would not consider it any differently than a person, simply for the fact that it is sentient, but I will never say it is alive.

Meh, geth interactions are only inert if the program is isolated. Geth "life" exists parallel from the real world and into the virtual world as a result of neural net. A physical body isn't necessary for interactive processes to occur. and thus the geth can develop and evolve enough to ask "do I have a soul?"

Biochemical processes are just as informative as virtual processes.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 12 avril 2010 - 01:25 .

[Nostradamoose]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nostradamoose wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nostradamoose wrote...

As for me, it cannot die naturaly, therefore it is not alive. It is artificial, it is never born and it never dies. It just is, it is not alive, it is different.

Applying life and death concepts to it is just a fallacy.

What do you mean geth cannot die naturally?

Methinks people are unnecessarily applying complicated philosophical definitions to life, when it is unnecessary, it just muddies the simple definition of life that is irrelevant in the face of sentience.

It is intelligence, it is sentient but it is stored data that can be replicated and changed at will. It has no DNA, no organic function, just machine.

Whether or not it is organic is not relevant. It has a state of operation and a state of non-operation, life and death.

Nostradamoose wrote...

A virus is not considered life, yet it has DNA or RNA. It is inert unless it infects a cell. Here, what we have is something similar, the Geth is a program, it is inert unless it is activated inside a machine. In real life, I would not consider it any differently than a person, simply for the fact that it is sentient, but I will never say it is alive.

Organics are inert unless they have a source of oxygen, and something to initialize operation, just like with the geth. Your observations are selective, and you're overlooking simple things like what I just mentioned in order for geth to fit your definition of not being alive.

However, they only use oxygen as a fuel, as energy. It is not their shell. Also, for most, they die without the said fuel (Or die because of the said toxic component it can be for some of them.
I'd compare the geth to a latent Bacteriophage virus: It infects a cell, it implants itself inside the DNA chain of the mother cell, once the cell is under stress by a specific outside stimuli, it come out of the DNA chain, overide the whole cellular machinery and take control of it to replicate it's DNA and the necessary proteinal structures it requires to infect other cells.

Can we truly say it is alive though? It needs the machine to replicate, without it, it is completely inactive. It can be copied in many different machines. Yet the Geth is not the machine, it is the Program

In a sort of way, a geth is a parasite that can move from form to form while building its own vessel of transmission.


EDIT*:

Inverness Moon wrote...
This is explained in-game. AI's like EDI are a combination of hardware and software, like organics. Geth are purely software, they can operate on any sufficient hardware.

Exactly, I would consider EDI as closer to life than the Geth. EDI has a connection to the machine it inhabits, Geth can simply move from one hardware to another, and this, without losing anything.

Modifié par Nostradamoose, 12 avril 2010 - 01:28 .

[cynicalmicahel]

As some one who had to sit through Anatomy & Physiology I & II, no, they are not alive in the sense that they do not exhibit the main sign of life: cellular metabolism. I am willing to accept that they are sentient and sapient constructs, but they are not alive in the biological sense.
Though, they never really did go into great detail about what exact material smake up a geth body. Maybe they are partially organic, or maybe they are made up of million of nano-machine cells that function much like the cells of biological organisms. Hey, that would be kind of neat...

[Collider]

I don't think they are any part organic, cynical. May diminish the whole thing about the Reapers being the perfect combination of machine and organics.