121 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonathan Shepard]

WarChicken78 wrote...

Life is scientifically defined by several attributes that need to be present. Lets take a look at them...

1. Metabolism - Geth do not have a classical metabolism. They do not eat and drink, neiter do they egest anything or need to breathe. At least not on the first glance. But they need some kind of energy source that needs to be connected to them, and when empty this has to be exchanged or charged. This is not made clear by the codex entries.
So there seems to be some form of metabolism, just not in a way normal organic life has it.

2. Homeostasis - The body is clearly dissociated from the surroundings. This is true for a mobile platform, but not at all true for a geth program stored on a server. On the other hand that server is still clearly dissociated from it's surroundings as well. It could be compared to an algae colony.
Not Hmeostasis isn't obviously present, but on a closer look something like it is present.

3. Growth - Geth do not grow, except if they attach something to their "body". Their Intellect evolves through coding and experience, but the body does not get bigger by itself.
Growth is not or almost not present.

4. Response to stimuli - Geth have sensors and motorics. If they see something, they can interact with it, if threatened they can flee or defend.
Response to stimuli is obviously present.

5. Reproduction. While Geth do not reproduce like organics, they clearly do reproduce. New programs are being coded by already active geth, as are new platforms being built by other geth.
So Reproduction is obviously present.

6. Adaptation to the environment. On the first glance geth do not adapt, because there is no need to. They can withstand much worse environmental parameters than any organic can. Temperature, preassure, light and gravity only have little impact on a platform. Should it be destroyed by extreme circumstances, a backup can be downloaded to another platform. It can be guessed that they would use heat or pressure resistant materials for their platforms, if the need arose, but this has not been seen yet.
So no adaptation (yet).

This concludes that the Geth fulfill 4 of 6 criteria obviously, maybe even 5.
So I'd say, they are alive. Someone may say "Hey, there's one or two criteria missing!"
Look at a viruses - they are alive, but are missing the capability to reproduce, if no host cell is present.

This sums up my opinion and more points than I had thought of nicely.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Of course they're life.

What most people disagree about is whether they are a form of life on a level with our own. If their lives mean as much as ours.

I think they do.

I disagree. An individual Geth unit is not even an individual "person." The Geth are programs which can be shared, duplicated, downloaded, and uploaded. Legion even says that the Geth are "we" and Legion is not "I." Would you save a single Geth or a single child? Which one has more value? The child will die forever. The Geth will live on with programs, and will not feel pain or emotion. But you can be sure as hell certain the child will.

The geth as a whole share a level of life I value.

I would save the child, because individual geth are only platforms. But that's not what I mean.

I foresee a change in the geth. I see the possibilities of what they can and will become. With the creation of Legion and the blossoming of geth individuality - they already can develop different opinion's, for Christ's sake - I think they will eventually come to a point where each geth is more unique and individualized. More like a person.

They will still be part of the collective, of course, and there will always be a neural net, but I can see things changing a bit for them as they evolve. I can see them becoming more like us.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 12 avril 2010 - 01:37 .

[Sigma Tauri]

Nostradamoose wrote...
snip

Then, if your point is that the geth require a physical body to be alive, then that there is a greater gestalt network of geth that can be considered alive. Even if they don't require a mobile platform to run, geth are still mechanical and require maintanance and energy. It can be assumed that geth mine for resources and build powerful reactors to maintain their interconnected state. Otherwise, the network and the individual programs cannot run. Individual geth programs may not be considered alive, but the entire geth society can be considered an organism of its own.

[Inverness Moon]

Nostradamoose wrote...

However, they only use oxygen as a fuel, as energy. It is not their shell.

I don't understand what you're trying to say...

Nostradamoose wrote...

Also, for most, they die without the said fuel (Or die because of the said toxic component it can be for some of them.

And geth can die without electricity.

Nostradamoose wrote...

I'd compare the geth to a latent Bacteriophage virus: It infects a cell, it implants itself inside the DNA chain of the mother cell, once the cell is under stress by a specific outside stimuli, it come out of the DNA chain, overide the whole cellular machinery and take control of it to replicate it's DNA and the necessary proteinal structures it requires to infect other cells.

That is an interesting analogy but not valid. Geth do not infect. That is about as valid as the idea that sperm infect women to produce babies.

Nostradamoose wrote...

Can we truly say it is alive though? It needs the machine to replicate, without it, it is completely inactive. It can be copied in many different machines. Yet the Geth is not the machine, it is the Program

Geth need a body to interface with the outside world and create new bodies, same with organics. They do not, however, need bodies to replicate themselves, they are purely software, unlike organics.

Nostradamoose wrote...

In a sort of way, a geth is a parasite that can move from form to form while building its own vessel of transmission.

Doesn't Agent Smith compare humans to viruses because they change the environment to suite them instead of adapting to it?

cynicalmicahel wrote...

As some one who had to sit through Anatomy & Physiology I & II, no, they are not alive in the sense that they do not exhibit the main sign of life: cellular metabolism. I am willing to accept that they are sentient and sapient constructs, but they are not alive in the biological sense.
Though, they never really did go into great detail about what exact material smake up a geth body. Maybe they are partially organic, or maybe they are made up of million of nano-machine cells that function much like the cells of biological organisms. Hey, that would be kind of neat...

Of course they are not alive in the biological sense, they are not organic. You can not attempt to apply organic definitions of life to synthetics.

For the geth, to be alive is to be in operation, to be dead is to not be in operation.

monkeycamoran wrote...

Then, if your point is that the geth require a physical body to be alive, then that there is a greater gestalt network of geth that can be considered alive. Even if they don't require a mobile platform to run, geth are still mechanical and require maintanance and energy. It can be assumed that geth mine for resources and build powerful reactors to maintain their interconnected state. Otherwise, the network and the individual programs cannot run. Individual geth programs may not be considered alive, but the entire geth society can be considered an organism of its own.

Geth software requires platforms (hardware) to be live, whether or not the platform is mobile is another thing entirely.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 avril 2010 - 01:44 .

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...
The geth as a whole share a level of life I value.

I would save the child, because individual geth are only platforms. But that's not what I mean.

I foresee a change in the geth. I see the possibilities of what they can and will become. With the creation of Legion and the blossoming of geth individuality - they already can develop different opinion's, for Christ's sake - I think they will eventually come to a point where each geth is more unique and individualized. More like a person.

They will still be part of the collective, of course, and there will always be a neural net, but I can see things changing a bit for them as they evolve. I can see them becoming more like us.

The trouble is that they Geth do not seem to understand individuality nor do they seem to like the idea. Part of the reason why the Geth are so powerful is because they are not like us - there are very few factions with them compared to the organic races. I don't think becoming more than us in terms of individuality seem to be what they want at all. I'm not referring to self determination, which they already want and already have, but more individuality.

[Sigma Tauri]

Inverness Moon...
Geth software requires platforms (hardware) to be live, whether or not the platform is mobile is another thing entirely.

Geth software outside of the platform also require power to be alive. Point is that they still perform certain "living" functions by taking in resources and energy even if an individual organism like Legion is not discernable. This is merely shared across the geth network, which does have a physical component that requires resources and energy to maintain its ordered structures.

This is not to say that geth existence is biological life, but better termed as alternate life.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 12 avril 2010 - 01:51 .

[Nostradamoose]

monkeycamoran wrote...

Then, if your point is that the geth require a physical body to be alive, then that there is a greater gestalt network of geth that can be considered alive. Even if they don't require a mobile platform to run, geth are still mechanical and require maintanance and energy. It can be assumed that geth mine for resources and build powerful reactors to maintain their interconnected state. Otherwise, the network and the individual programs cannot run. Individual geth programs may not be considered alive, but the entire geth society can be considered an organism of its own.

You are assuming the different platforms the Geth uses are part of the Geth. The thing is, they are not. Like the cell is not a part of the virus infecting it. (btw, viruses are not considered living because they only fit the criterias for Life in the infection state). The Geth, while sentient, yes, I will admit that it is sentient and possesses a subjective viewpoint.

The thing is that it is not permanently attached to the "body" alimentating it. The body (or the network) is simply a host without which the program cannot function, but that can be changed at will.

As I said, I would consider the Geth as an Intelligence, a persona, but nothing living while I would consider Harbinger, Sovereign and EDI more living than the Geth collective. The only thing that tickles me about saying the Geth is living is the obvious lack of necessary attach to the main body that those other 3 AIs have.

[DPSSOC]

Nostradamoose wrote...

...they can be left unplugged for hundreds of years (IE lifeless) and come back to life normally right after. They are machines, they are not alive. At least, not to me.

Funny cause this same statement is why I feel that the Geth and other AI's are actually superior life by virtue of superior construction.  The human body is an organic machine, we have all the same components as a Geth would just made of squishier parts.  Our inability to transfer ourselves from one platform to another and the fact that our platforms degrade rapidly (relatively) over time do not make us special they make us poorly built.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

The trouble is that they Geth do not seem to understand individuality nor do they seem to like the idea. Part of the reason why the Geth are so powerful is because they are not like us - there are very few factions with them compared to the organic races. I don't think becoming more than us in terms of individuality seem to be what they want at all. I'm not referring to self determination, which they already want and already have, but more individuality.

... And yet, the geth can have differing opinions. In Legion's recording it says, "Does this unit  have a soul". Reference to the individual self, not the collective.

It may not be what they want, but will it happen? That's what I'm thinking about. And anyway, they oppose the Reapers for the very reason that they value their individuality as a collective - it may not be the kind of individuality that we value, the individuality of the person, but it is a type of individuality. They don't want to lose themselves.

And who knows what rewriting the heretics will do to the true geth? It may affect them in ways we can't foresee.

[Xaijin]

They can pass the Turing test. Argument over.

[Inverness Moon]

Nostradamoose wrote...

monkeycamoran wrote...

Then, if your point is that the geth require a physical body to be alive, then that there is a greater gestalt network of geth that can be considered alive. Even if they don't require a mobile platform to run, geth are still mechanical and require maintanance and energy. It can be assumed that geth mine for resources and build powerful reactors to maintain their interconnected state. Otherwise, the network and the individual programs cannot run. Individual geth programs may not be considered alive, but the entire geth society can be considered an organism of its own.

You are assuming the different platforms the Geth uses are part of the Geth. The thing is, they are not. Like the cell is not a part of the virus infecting it. (btw, viruses are not considered living because they only fit the criterias for Life in the infection state). The Geth, while sentient, yes, I will admit that it is sentient and possesses a subjective viewpoint.

The thing is that it is not permanently attached to the "body" alimentating it. The body (or the network) is simply a host without which the program cannot function, but that can be changed at will.

As I said, I would consider the Geth as an Intelligence, a persona, but nothing living while I would consider Harbinger, Sovereign and EDI more living than the Geth collective. The only thing that tickles me about saying the Geth is living is the obvious lack of necessary attach to the main body that those other 3 AIs have.

The geth ability to change bodies at will has no consequence on whether or not they are alive. They do not exist in the same way as organics or hardware-bound AI like EDI.

What you need to do is wrap your head around the fact that synthetic life does not follow the same rules as organic lfie. Your comparisons of geth to viruses are not applicable.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 avril 2010 - 02:02 .

[Collider]

Individuality as we see it is what I meant. They are already have individual collectives, though IIRC only two. The impression I get from Legion is that they like sharing programs and don't understand or want to be individual.



As for asking if this unit has a soul, it's important to know that a "unit" is not one program. It's a multitude of programs. That's really all the Geth are, hardware and programs. So it's like asking if "this group of programs has a soul."

[Nostradamoose]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nostradamoose wrote...

However, they only use oxygen as a fuel, as energy. It is not their shell.

I don't understand what you're trying to say...
The Oxygen is not their body, it is only a source of energy, much like the Geth use electricity, I'll give you that.

Nostradamoose wrote...

Also, for most, they die without the said fuel (Or die because of the said toxic component it can be for some of them.

And geth can die without electricity.
No, they simply become dormant without electricity, they will still be stored until something restores power to the platform it is stored on.

Nostradamoose wrote...

I'd compare the geth to a latent Bacteriophage virus: It infects a cell, it implants itself inside the DNA chain of the mother cell, once the cell is under stress by a specific outside stimuli, it come out of the DNA chain, overide the whole cellular machinery and take control of it to replicate it's DNA and the necessary proteinal structures it requires to infect other cells.

That is an interesting analogy but not valid. Geth do not infect. That is about as valid as the idea that sperm infect women to produce babies.
I wish to differ that statement, A geth can be transported into any Hardware, like a master key can open many locks. While sperm, as your analogy suggests, can only be linked to one specific lock. I have to say I do not believe though the Geth reproduces, it grows  by adding many programs to itself, but it still remains one, it is united.  Although Legion might very well contradict me here, but if we follow the lore, it is the one and only.

Nostradamoose wrote...

Can we truly say it is alive though? It needs the machine to replicate, without it, it is completely inactive. It can be copied in many different machines. Yet the Geth is not the machine, it is the Program

Geth need a body to interface with the outside world and create new bodies, same with organics. They do not, however, need bodies to replicate themselves, they are purely software, unlike organics.
Hence my virus comparison, the Geth, without a platform is totally intangible.

Nostradamoose wrote...

In a sort of way, a geth is a parasite that can move from form to form while building its own vessel of transmission.

Doesn't Agent Smith compare humans to viruses because they change the environment to suite them instead of adapting to it?
No, he compares Humanity to a virus, not just humans. As a whole, apart from the lack of collective "thought" that Humanity lacks to be compared to a Geth, it is much the same. So yea, in a fact, the Geth is like Humanity, just not like humans. There is a slight interpretative difference, but it still remains.

Bold = answers

[Sigma Tauri]

Nostradamoose wrote...

You are assuming the different platforms the Geth uses are part of the Geth. The thing is, they are not. Like the cell is not a part of the virus infecting it. (btw, viruses are not considered living because they only fit the criterias for Life in the infection state). The Geth, while sentient, yes, I will admit that it is sentient and possesses a subjective viewpoint.

The thing is that it is not permanently attached to the "body" alimentating it. The body (or the network) is simply a host without which the program cannot function, but that can be changed at will.

As I said, I would consider the Geth as an Intelligence, a persona, but nothing living while I would consider Harbinger, Sovereign and EDI more living than the Geth collective. The only thing that tickles me about saying the Geth is living is the obvious lack of necessary attach to the main body that those other 3 AIs have.

See, this is where we disagree. Geth programs are not naturally spontaneous. They are artificial and do require a mechanical component to exist. The virtual world actual geth society live cannot exist without maintenance and energy from the real world. Thus, I assume the geth still require platforms for maintaining networks or resources for creating new materials because they still suffer from entropy in the real world. Systems like the geth where entropy is reduced is associated to life forms.

The problem here is people are looking at geth platform like an individual organism, like a yeast cell or a fox. I can agree that it's just a machine with a geth program. Viruses don't have capacities (as far as I know) for networking with its conspecifics. An individual virus is inert. However, I propose geth society as a whole is a living organism, and that even though an individual living thing is not discernable, the physical body of the geth (like heretic station) could be considered alive.

EDIT: Just to nitpick from microbio experience, oxygen isn't a fuel so much as a final electron acceptor for the electron transport chain. The major fuel is the ATPase machinery that uses the hydrogen ion gradient between the matrix and the inner mitochondrial layer. Anaerobic species don't use oxygen and may use other chemical species for final electron acceptors.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 12 avril 2010 - 02:09 .

[Collider]

Part of the reason why I generally value organic life over Geth "life" is because Geth do not feel emotion or pain.

[Nostradamoose]

While I propose it is not a living organism, but simply a persona. A living being? No. A single intelligence that can interact with others throught thousands of different platforms, yes, without any doubt.

[Nostradamoose]

monkeycamoran wrote...

EDIT: Just to nitpick from microbio experience, oxygen isn't a fuel so much as a final electron acceptor for the electron transport chain. The major fuel is the ATPase machinery that uses the hydrogen ion gradient between the matrix and the inner mitochondrial layer. Anaerobic species don't use oxygen and may use other chemical species for final electron acceptors.

Yep, microbio told me that as well, let's just say that saying it is a fuel makes it far more understandable for others without the same scientific background. But yea, I do have some basics in Genetics and general microbiology, I have to say that I lack the last two years of my bachelor degree due to me switching to another program recently.

(Edit: didn't mean to double post, just thought someone would have time to answer before I'd have time to post that...)

Modifié par Nostradamoose, 12 avril 2010 - 02:14 .

[binaryemperor]

I just had the funniest thought of two Geth reenacting the "They're Made of Meat" short story.


EDIT: Well, to contribute to the conversation, I would really consider the Geth alive, because Organic life should definitely try to not tick off Synthetic life.

So if legion walks up to me and asks me if they are "alive". I'll just agree with them and smile politely.

I watched the Animatrix. Legion might reprogram my brain to prove a point or something if I argue otherwise.

Modifié par binaryemperor, 12 avril 2010 - 02:20 .

[Sigma Tauri]

Nostradamoose wrote...

Yep, microbio told me that as well, let's just say that saying it is a fuel makes it far more understandable for others without the same scientific background. But yea, I do have some basics in Genetics and general microbiology, I have to say that I lack the last two years of my bachelor degree due to me switching to another program recently.

(Edit: didn't mean to double post, just thought someone would have time to answer before I'd have time to post that...)

Then, I guess I shouldn't have been so technical. I do have to consider my audience, though it's cool you know.

I <3 microbio.

[Nostradamoose]

monkeycamoran wrote...

Nostradamoose wrote...

Yep, microbio told me that as well, let's just say that saying it is a fuel makes it far more understandable for others without the same scientific background. But yea, I do have some basics in Genetics and general microbiology, I have to say that I lack the last two years of my bachelor degree due to me switching to another program recently.

(Edit: didn't mean to double post, just thought someone would have time to answer before I'd have time to post that...)

Then, I guess I shouldn't have been so technical. I do have to consider my audience, though it's cool you know.

I <3 microbio.

Let's just say that the bacteriophage T4 has to be revered.

[Inverness Moon]

Nostradamoose wrote...

The Oxygen is not their body, it is only a source of energy, much like the Geth use electricity, I'll give you that.

I never said the oxygen was their body. I said that both geth and organics require energy in order to operate and be alive.

Nostradamoose wrote...

No, they simply become dormant without electricity, they will still be stored until something restores power to the platform it is stored on.

That is because of their difference compared to organics. Unlike geth, organic bodies deteriorate when they loose power, unless you freeze them. Because humans are a combination of both hardware and software, the deterioration of the body results in death. If a body was preserved in a perfect cryogenic stasis, it could be started and stopped instantly, just like a geth program.

Nostradamoose wrote...

I wish to differ that statement, A geth can be transported into any Hardware, like a master key can open many locks. While sperm, as your analogy suggests, can only be linked to one specific lock. I have to say I do not believe though the Geth reproduces, it grows  by adding many programs to itself, but it still remains one, it is united.  Although Legion might very well contradict me here, but if we follow the lore, it is the one and only.

I don't see what the lock analogy has to do with anything. We're getting off track.

The geth network grows in size and intelligence by replicating individual programs the same way that your brain grows in size and intelligence by increasing the number of brain cells.

Nostradamoose wrote...

Hence my virus comparison, the Geth, without a platform is totally intangible.

That goes the same for any human.

Nostradamoose wrote...

No, he compares Humanity to a virus, not just humans. As a whole, apart from the lack of collective "thought" that Humanity lacks to be compared to a Geth, it is much the same. So yea, in a fact, the Geth is like Humanity, just not like humans. There is a slight interpretative difference, but it still remains.

When I said humans I meant humanity. So I don't see the problem here.

I was pointing out how viral traits can be found in humans too, doesn't mean they're not alive. And I don't know why you brought up viruses and parasites in the first place, as I don't see what they have to do with the geth.

Collider wrote...

Part of the reason why I generally value organic life over Geth "life" is because Geth do not feel emotion or pain.

Claiming that human traits make life more valuable is racist.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 avril 2010 - 02:23 .

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

Part of the reason why I generally value organic life over Geth "life" is because Geth do not feel emotion or pain.

To some extent I feel the same way.

I am much more protective of organics than I am of synthetics, specifically for the reasons you describe.

But that doesn't mean I don't afford them the same rights, or the same open-mindedness I would give all other different forms of life.

I think the geth are an opportunity for organics to do just that, open their minds a little bit more and second guess our definitions of what life really is. The real definition may be broader and much more complex than we define it now.

[Collider]

Rights appropriate for the Geth, sure. Ideally organics would still be prioritized under law in certain aspects. But the Geth do deserve their independence, as well as peace with the Quarians/organics. Thankfully Legion seem to imply this possibility (and it seems highly doubtful the possibility would even be mentioned if there is nothing of the sort in ME3). The Geth, in a literary sense, are bettered for it because it goes beyond "the bad race" or the "killer robots that hate organics" trope.

[Vaenier]

They are Made Out of Meat ^.=.^

[Nightwriter]

Weird video...