121 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

The question for me isn't, will we create sentient artificial life?

It's, wil our technology and our programs get so good that we will one day make an AI that can mimic sentience so well and so convincingly we can't even tell the difference?

And if we can no longer tell the difference, a certain line I heard from Caprica comes to mind...

"A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

This is what I think about. If it's indistinguishable from the real thing... then does it even matter anymore that it's just a program? If we can't perceive the differences, do they matter?

[Collider]

Quite literally, it matters that it is a program because of the properties associated with programs. You can copy and edit program code. You can duplicate it, download it, and upload it. You can delete it. You can't copy people, you can't edit people, you can't duplicate people, you can download people and you can't upload people. A program that has been deleted can be recoded and rewritten, a person cannot.



There is an enormous amount of coding and money that would involved in truly mimicking people that we would not be able to tell the difference. Another question would be if was even worth such a monumental task, considering we already have people in abundance.

[The Governator]

Geth are machines and should be dealt with accordingly.

[DPSSOC]

Collider wrote...

Quite literally, it matters that it is a program because of the properties associated with programs. You can copy and edit program code. You can duplicate it, download it, and upload it. You can delete it. You can't copy people, you can't edit people, you can't duplicate people, you can download people and you can't upload people. A program that has been deleted can be recoded and rewritten, a person cannot.

While you can't copy people (at least not like a program) you can edit them (education, conditioning, etc) and you can duplicate them (cloning).  The differing factor is time, give me a saint and given enough time and proper equipment I can turn him into a homocidal lunatic and vice-versa.  The reason we don't do this is partly because of the investment (both time and money) to do so without completely destroying the person and partly because it's viewed as unethical to rob someone of the essence of who they are to suit our needs.

Similarly given an accurate enough history you can create a clone and have it grow into the exact same person.  Now at this particular point in time this is for all intents and purposes impossible as the sheer volume of information you'd need to even reconstruct a single year exactly is neither easily replicable nor accessible.  However were a child to be raised with the intent of testing this theory it would be much easier as you could control most of that data (weather, social interactions, etc.)

Now when you say deleted in terms of people I'm assuming your refer to death.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 12 avril 2010 - 06:32 .

[Collider]

DPSSOC wrote...
While you can't copy people (at least not like a program) you can edit them (education, conditioning, etc) and you can duplicate them (cloning).

You cannot edit people like that. That's influencing them, not editing them. You aren't going into them and changing lines of code, you are telling them things, they will not necessarily believe or even listen.

We don't know if we can actually clone people as you seem to be implying. I doubt we could. We can duplicate their genes, but they will not grow up the same - at least without some unethical experiment within a facility or something, they will still be different people, just as indentical twins can be different people.

Similarly given an accurate enough history you can create a clone and have it grow into the exact same person.

This is at least nearly impossible, and implausible. It's not on the same level as editing code.

Now when you say deleted in terms of people I'm assuming your refer to death.

Not quite, there is a difference between deleting code and killing a person. You can rewrite the code perfectly, you cannot do so with a person.

[Tooneyman]

The geth are evil don't believe them. Know why because the quarians are evil. I say destroy them. HAHA!.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

Quite literally, it matters that it is a program because of the properties associated with programs. You can copy and edit program code. You can duplicate it, download it, and upload it. You can delete it. You can't copy people, you can't edit people, you can't duplicate people, you can download people and you can't upload people. A program that has been deleted can be recoded and rewritten, a person cannot.

But in the Mass Effect universe, don't AIs need a quantum bluebox, meaning they can't be identically copied or downloaded or whatever because if you transferred them into something else you'd lose that specific AI's memory?

And anyway, people can be programmed. Memories can be blocked out or even erased - we're developing ways to do this now, I was just reading about it, it's causing a lot of controversy. And like someone else said, our bodies can be copied and duplicated.

There is an enormous amount of coding and money that would involved in truly mimicking people that we would not be able to tell the difference. Another question would be if was even worth such a monumental task, considering we already have people in abundance.

It's not about making more people. It's about the achievement of artificial life. It's about seeing if we can do it. It's like saying, "Why go to the moon? We already have enough land to go for a walk here."

[DPSSOC]

Collider wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
While you can't copy people (at least not like a program) you can edit them (education, conditioning, etc) and you can duplicate them (cloning).

You cannot edit people like that. That's influencing them, not editing them. You aren't going into them and changing lines of code, you are telling them things, they will not necessarily believe or even listen.

 
Yes when using normal methods it is ineffective editing but still editing.  As I said if you have the time, equipment, and stomach you can completely rewrite a human being.

Collider wrote...
We don't know if we can actually clone people as you seem to be implying. I doubt we could. We can duplicate their genes, but they will not grow up the same - at least without some unethical experiment within a facility or something, they will still be different people, just as indentical twins can be different people.

Similarly given an accurate enough history you can create a clone and have it grow into the exact same person.

This is at least nearly impossible, and implausible. It's not on the same level as editing code.

Yes as I admitted it is for all intents and purposes impossible to accurately and exactly duplicate a human being in this manner but that's just because of the numerous minute details that might have an effect that we don't really have control over.  However if you were to conduct an "unethical experiment" as you put it it is possible, in theory.

[Inverness Moon]

Collider wrote...

Quite literally, it matters that it is a program because of the properties associated with programs. You can copy and edit program code. You can duplicate it, download it, and upload it. You can delete it. You can't copy people, you can't edit people, you can't duplicate people, you can download people and you can't upload people. A program that has been deleted can be recoded and rewritten, a person cannot.

There is an enormous amount of coding and money that would involved in truly mimicking people that we would not be able to tell the difference. Another question would be if was even worth such a monumental task, considering we already have people in abundance.

The ability to relatively easily manipulate geth programs does not change the fact that they are sentient and make their lives any less valuable.

It is only by nature of our messy part hardware and part software construction that we're so difficult to manipulate, it doesn't mean it can't be done.

You're creating conditions in order to devalue the geth.

Nightwriter wrote...

But in the Mass Effect universe, don't AIs need a quantum bluebox, meaning they can't be identically copied or downloaded or whatever because if you transferred them into something else you'd lose that specific AI's memory?

That is only one type of AI. Transferring the files of a blue box based AI from one box to another would result in a different personality being developed. The hardware for those AIs is specifically designed to enable sentience.

The geth are different, they are software only. When their programs network together in sufficient numbers, they achieve sentience by mimicking the behavior of the organic consciousness, rather like how your brain cells have to work together to achieve sentience.

Nightwriter wrote...

And anyway, people can be programmed. Memories can be blocked out or even erased - we're developing ways to do this now, I was just reading about it, it's causing a lot of controversy. And like someone else said, our bodies can be copied and duplicated.

There is an enormous amount of coding and money that would involved in truly mimicking people that we would not be able to tell the difference. Another question would be if was even worth such a monumental task, considering we already have people in abundance.

It's not about making more people. It's about the achievement of artificial life. It's about seeing if we can do it. It's like saying, "Why go to the moon? We already have enough land to go for a walk here."

It causes controversy because people want to believe they're more than just extremely advanced machines.

[NICKjnp]

[kreite]

the geth are not complicated by difference or conflict all the things that define being alive in their society they only have a basic goal their own advancement and survival they are not concerned about things unless there is a logical reason for them to do so e.g they are only concerned by the reapers due to the fact of them wanting to destroy the geth on the flipside one thing that would make me reconsider complete destruction is their curiosity the one thing that almost on its own proves a sapient thought but I am as of late undecided

[Inverness Moon]

kreite wrote...

the geth are not complicated by difference or conflict all the things that define being alive in their society they only have a basic goal their own advancement and survival they are not concerned about things unless there is a logical reason for them to do so e.g they are only concerned by the reapers due to the fact of them wanting to destroy the geth on the flipside one thing that would make me reconsider complete destruction is their curiosity the one thing that almost on its own proves a sapient thought but I am as of late undecided

The sapience of the geth is undeniable, the codex says so.

The goal of the geth is to improve themselves. Nothing you have said seems to be anything that wouldn't apply to humans as well.

And please try using proper grammar, that was one giant run-on sentence.

I have debated in quite a few threads like these, where the sapience and value of the geth is questioned because they're machines, etc. I consistently see that those who believe that the geth are inferior in one way or another base there believe on a comparison between geth and humans and list different things that geth lack that make them lesser than us or other organics. Basically because they're not human they're inferior, because they're different they're inferior, etc. These same people want to believe that they're more than the sum of their parts when they don't even understand all the parts they're made of; pride.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 avril 2010 - 08:35 .

[Nivenus]

Are they alive? Well, yes, that's a simple question to answer, since they fulfill all the basic requirements.



They breed. They mutate (Tali points this out very early on in ME1). They consume resources to sustain themselves. That's life in a nutshell.



Are they sophonts? That's a much more philosophical question but from my standpoint... yes.



They are clearly capable of reasoning, which is a basic requirement of sapience. They seem to even, if Legion's response to your query about the N7 armor is any indication, have some kind of emotions, which is a basic requirement of sentience. They have goals, desires, and an understanding of other entities as separate from them, which indicates self-awareness.



Now, some might say they're merely "simulating" this. But frankly, none of us are objective observers so, insofar as we can tell, they're sophonts. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and moves like a duck, it's a pretty good guess that it's a duck. Same applies here. If all the observational requirements are fulfilled it's reasonable to assume that the geth are sophonts.

[Nightwriter]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Collider wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

And anyway, people can be programmed. Memories can be blocked out or even erased - we're developing ways to do this now, I was just reading about it, it's causing a lot of controversy. And like someone else said, our bodies can be copied and duplicated.

There is an enormous amount of coding and money that would involved in truly mimicking people that we would not be able to tell the difference. Another question would be if was even worth such a monumental task, considering we already have people in abundance.

It's not about making more people. It's about the achievement of artificial life. It's about seeing if we can do it. It's like saying, "Why go to the moon? We already have enough land to go for a walk here."

It causes controversy because people want to believe they're more than just extremely advanced machines.

I think the fact that we don't want to believe we're advanced machines reveals our ignorance and underestimation of the machine itself. To us it is as if we are saying we don't have souls, or free will, or choice.

We're still acting like being a machine is bad. I think the machine represents something very different - it represents our growth as a species and our increasing ability to gain control over ourselves and the world around us, to be the programmers rather than the programmed. It's symbolic of us taking power back from nature and fate and mindless instinct; a cornerstone on the path of our own self-awareness. The dawn of reason, and of choice.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 12 avril 2010 - 08:35 .

[exterminator_]

I just hope for one thing :

THAT ALL GETH WILL ERADICATE EVERY SINGLE QUARIAN IN THE UNIVERSE OF ME3

and i am with them

Modifié par exterminator , 12 avril 2010 - 08:45 .

[Nightwriter]

Picture is too small. I am squinting.

[Inverness Moon]

Nightwriter wrote...

Picture is too small. I am squinting.

You are supposed to click it.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Inverness Moon wrote...
It causes controversy because people want to believe they're more than just extremely advanced machines.

One can flip that and say it causes controversy because people don't want to believe they are more than advanced machines.

The geth are operating outside of their pre-determined coding. The Quarians never wanted sentient life, but they let the geth manage themselves, they were by all means, a computer system that started adapting and over time, at an fluke of code, it gain basic seintence, and much like a nameserver, they started compiling code and learning.

Secondly, 100 geth in an platform is there to help operate the body, the programs themselves are inteilligent, but like humans, have all different perspectives and ideas. They form concensus on what to do and then act on it within FTL speeds. It's like, having an group of 100 people in the same body communcating at light speed. You have to remember that, they do no communicate like we do. Decisions that take us minutes or hours or days could take 15-20 seconds for them to decide as they murmur over the possiblity.

Secondly, the more geth there are in an group, the smarter they are. Why? It's the same reason when your faced with an problem, and you have 100 people in front of you.

We need to setup an DNS server... does anyone know how?

5 programs raise their hands and say how they can do it. They present their cases on how  best to do it and everyone argues/give opinons over which is the better way till an concensus is reached on who has the better idea, or modify the idea untill an acceptable outcome can occur.

Besides the fact that they are not organic in nature and are software, does nots mean anything. They have individuality and yet at the same time are in an true democracy, something we try to achieve and say we have (but haven't) for an very long time.

To assume 100 geth in an platform = 1 person is not true. it's an 100 people in one body, all talking and discussing things at the speed of light. Their overall intelliegence increases the more programs are added due to the fact it's adding more people with different exprinces and skillsets to the mix. The more you have, the more total knowledge you have. Except that unlike humans, knowledge can't be changed or modifiied. It's like every program has photo-genenic memory.

However there is an downside to this, partly the reason why the geth were afraid of the reaper virus, it would modifiy the photo-exact data to the point where it seemed like the reapers were the correct decision to follow, and provide shoe-horn arguement that led them to believe this is true.

Another problem is that soverign (slight speculation that actually makes sense) only needed one geth to re-download into the collective after it died in order to attempt to follow them. he uses the reaper virus on them and convinces them that following the reapersis correct. The programs in the collective discuss this and eventually 15% of the geth leave the collective over this decision. Something that by far is out of the ordinary for an collective to do. However The Orginal geth acccepted this outcome and left the herectics alone. Pretty much the geth had an cult going and the cult left with their prophet program.

When you later re-in counter this virus, the virus has been modified to the point where any geth will accept the Reapers, hence why the geth are afraid. Machines can not be afraid of being wiped out or taken under slavery.

As far as I am concerned the reapers are sentient.

I also have an runnning theory on how the geth can resist the quarian viruses, which probably made the majority of them resist to the reaper virus.

[exterminator_]

Just click on it - he is an upgraded version of super monk Geth lvl 30 hahahaha



vanquising quarians for fun :P:P:P

[abstractwhiz]

Nightwriter wrote...
I think the fact that we don't want to believe we're advanced machines reveals our ignorance and underestimation of the machine itself. To us it is as if we are saying we don't have souls, or free will, or choice.

We're still acting like being a machine is bad. I think the machine represents something very different - it represents our growth as a species and our increasing ability to gain control over ourselves and the world around us, to be the programmers rather than the programmed. It's symbolic of us taking power back from nature and fate and mindless instinct; a cornerstone on the path of our own self-awareness. The dawn of reason, and of choice.

To add to this, the word 'machine' is just like the word 'life' - largely meaningless in technical contexts because people read too much into it. Saying that something is 'just a machine' is ridiculous. Humans are 'just machines' too, just very complicated ones. Dismissing the geth as being 'just machines' is silly - anyone can see that there is a massive difference between Legion and a toaster. You could use the same idea to dismiss humans as 'just organics' or 'just a clump of cells', missing the fact that there is a huge difference between a person and an amoeba.

Except maybe the Turian councilor. I hope the Reapers dismiss his dismissals (and him) with extreme prejudice in ME3. <_<

[UpDownLeftRight]

Why do some of you consider emotion to be an important aspect of a "living" entity.

We do not "feel" pain, we experience functions of our "programming". If A punches B, B won't truly "feel" pain. B will react to the stimuli of her/his nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances. Love is no different. We do not truly "feel" love.
Dopamine, Estrogen, nerve growth factors(NGF), Norepinephrine, Oxytocin, Serotonin, Testosterone and Vasopressin are what we call "love". The most important ones are NGF, Oxytocin and Serotonin. Exactly why they do what they do is not really known. But they are the reasons we "feel"/"experience" love.

We do not "feel". We "feel" because our brains tell us to "feel". We experience the consequences of different stimuli, only made possible through our biological "programming". If an AI is programmed to "feel", are those emotions any different? If they are, in what way?

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 14 avril 2010 - 04:19 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Why do some of you consider emotion to be an important aspect of a "living" entity.

We do not "feel" pain, we experience functions of our "programming". If A punches B, B won't truly "feel" pain. B will react to the stimuli of her/his nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances. Love is no different. We do not truly "feel" love.
Dopamine, Estrogen, nerve growth factors(NGF), Norepinephrine, Oxytocin, Serotonin, Testosterone and Vasopressin are what we call "love". The most important ones are NGF, Oxytocin and Serotonin. Exactly why they do what they do is not really known. But they are the reasons we "feel"/"experience" love.

We do not "feel". We "feel" because our brains tell us to "feel". We experience the consequences of different stimuli, only made possible through our biological "programming". If an AI is programmed to "feel", are those emotions any different? If they are, in what way?

I have to agree, also the fact that our sensors are merely electrical impulses sent to our brain that we interept. The touch of the keyboard I can feel, and everything else, is an combination of impulses sent to to the brain and interact with chemicals and certain nureons that determine the output. We are by far, an more complex machine then the geth ever will be.