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[beancounter501]

Had Momentum on. Ole Alistar had a 24 Dex - rest in Str and the 2 Hand was all str.



It is probably the stats for the dual weld warrior - he really gimps his strength by pumping out dex to meet the requirements. Plus neither one had any runes or mage buffs. I was really suprised.



Just went through the Tower of Ishal and the Dual Weld pulled ahead. The two hand warrior did around 2K points of dmg and the dual weld did 2.5K points of dmg. Was using the Flame Weapons buff from the mage so that helped him a lot! Plus I got careless and the Two Hand got killed in the first room with the mage early on in the battle. Had him charge the mage and he got swarmed. I am sure he lost a couple hundred points of dmg there.



Now I just hit Lothering and picked up Dog and Sten. The party so far is PC - 2 Hand Warrior, Alistar - Dual Weld, Dog and Sten - 2 Hand. Going to go kill some Bandits, Bears and Spiders!



See if the Alistar can keep his lead in dmg or if he falls behind without the mage buffs

[soteria]

Other than the inherent unfairness of comparing the PC to an NPC, I'd agree that stats and lack of weapon buffs are probably the culprit. If Alistair was using sword/dagger, most that dex would be wasted in terms of damage. Dagger/dagger probably wouldn't be as effective at low levels with no buffs.

[beancounter501]

Well, had a slow start because I had to travel for work for a week. Just completed out Wardens Peak. The main 2 Hand Warrior 4,300 points of dmg and Alistar the Dual weld hit 4,600. Both are level 9. Alistar was using Oathkeeper and Olafs Cheese Knife with a couple of low level runes. The main was using some generic two hand sword with no enchantments. The other two party members were Sten and Dog. Dog was by far the lowest performing party member getting only 1500 points of dmg and Sten was pretty lackluster as well hitting for only 2,800. Interestingly, there is a big difference between who leads the party formation. The lead character will frequently get a couple of hits before the rest of the party can catch up.

Just picked up Starfang for the 2 Hand warrior so I expect his damage rate to pick up.

Also, having two 2 Hand warriors is extremely useful. Alternating Pommel Strike between the main and Sten can completely shut down a yellow mob for the entire battle! That is one thing the dual weld really lacks - a quick cooldown ability that has knockdown/stun.

Modifié par beancounter501, 12 mai 2010 - 05:06 .

[DWSmiley]

Are you going to abstain from the attribute increases in the Fade, to keep your pc and Al comparable?

[beancounter501]

Man, I wish I would have thought about that! I just ran through the mage's circle right up to the sloth demon that sends you to the Fade. I mainly went there for the cun boost so I could take the persuasion skills.



But your idea makes sense - I will boost Alistars stats by the same amount as the Fade through the console. I think you can do that. Does anyone know the console command off the top of there head?



BTW, the 2 Hand Main just totaly took off in the Mages area! I was absolutly shocked. At the start of the area the main had a total dmg of 18,584 and right before the Fade section he had 26,305. Almost 8K points of dmg. Alistar went from 18,407 to 23,333. About 5K points. He suffered a lot from knockdowns and hitting a couple of leg hold traps. Sten is still lagging he went from 6,685 to 10,291. However, Sten started to pick up steam once I got him Yusaris - but with no Enchantments. I think Sten is really lagging because his stat point allocation is not ideal. I am going to respec him and take all the worthless points out of dex/will/con and pump them into strength.



The main is using Starfang with a single Grandmaster Lightning Rune. Alistar is still using Oathkeeper and Olafs Knife with a couple of low level runes. The total enchantment dmg is about the same.

[DWSmiley]

<deleted>  (a blonde moment) 

Modifié par DWSmiley, 13 mai 2010 - 03:34 .

[beancounter501]

lol, saw your post before you edited it. But S&S already have the best single target knockdown/stun abilities - Shield Bash, Shield Pummel and Overpower. All on a 20 second cooldown. The problem is - most people max out dex at the expense of strength and all of those special attacks will fail.



The 2 Hand just made level 10 and picked up sweep. Expect his dmg to start to skyrocket. I will have to figure out how to boost Alistars stats since there is no console command to boost them. I may just give him the helm of honnealth so they are more equal. Or I just might right my own custom script to make the change.



Going after ole' Ogren next. I am either going to make him a S&S strength based or a Dual Weld.



However, I would like to point out to everyone reading this thread that I am using a personal mod that allows Weapon Enchantments and Poisons to fire when you use speical abilities. But it helps both the Dual Weld and 2 Hand Warriors. Makes using special abilities for a Dual Weld a lot better - since he has soo many multi strike talents. Flurry is pretty powerful now.

[DWSmiley]

Oh, well... 
Are you keeping specializations the same?  A pc berserker would have an edge over Al's templar, for instance.

[beancounter501]

So far no one has the Bererker spec. Templar or Champion for everyone at the start. Will probably pick up berserker for Alistar/Ogren/Main at level 16. Sten will go reaver. But War Cry with Superiority is just some awesome crowd control. Throw in 2 Hand Sweep knockdown and the occasional Holy Smite and we should have CC covered nicely.



So far it has been much smoother then expected. I have not given taunt to a single person - and I will probably not bother with that line until very late game.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
Going after ole' Ogren next. I am either going to make him a S&S strength based or a Dual Weld.

For the hell of it, since you've already got a DW & 2H, go S/S (str) to compare all three warrior types. After that S/S vs. 2H thread, I went ahead and rolled up a STR S/S 'Zerker / Templar. Couldn't insta-kill trash mobs like a DW or brutalize Boss-types like a 2H, but didn't have any of their weaknesses, either.  One of the easiest solos I've finished. Very impressive.

[beancounter501]

Random70 wrote...

For the hell of it, since you've already got a DW & 2H, go S/S (str) to compare all three warrior types. After that S/S vs. 2H thread, I went ahead and rolled up a STR S/S 'Zerker / Templar. Couldn't insta-kill trash mobs like a DW or brutalize Boss-types like a 2H, but didn't have any of their weaknesses, either.  One of the easiest solos I've finished. Very impressive.

Well you sold me!  Str SS Zerker/Something.  Not sure what.  I should have Ogren added to the party tomorrow.  I respecced ole Alistar again and switched him to a Zerker to see if he could take the lead on dmg.  But to no avail.  Here is everyones performance from the start of Jarvas cartel lair to the end.

Crom(PC) 2Hand Champion: 10,269
Alistar DW Zerker: 5,049
Sten 2 Hand Reaver:  3,696
Blue (Dog): 1,576

Overall the whole area was extremely easy.  No deaths and only 1 potion used the entire way until the showdown with Jarvia.  Took some damage with Jarva - forgot the darn barrel traps.  Everyone was either level 11 or 10.  A lot of the time we were fighting each other for kills!  I did have three melee decapations occur together.  That was pretty cool, wish I had recorded it.  Stamina is a bit of problem, especially for Sten and Alistar.  Sten keeps burning his stamina up on Mighty Blow/Sunder Arms and he has none left for 2 Hand Sweep.  Which probably accounts for his low dmg.  Need to change his tactics.  Alistar has Whirlwind but Momentum + Berserk is eatting almost all his stamina and he hardly has the stamina to use it.

Battle wise, I find running the main right into the middle and then Sweeping to be very effective.  Follow that up with a sweep from Sten and then howl from dog.  Alistar just hacks away.  Alistar/Dog did suffer a lot from Stuns/Knockdowns.  Dirty fighting or whatever it is called was being thrown around everywhere. 

Modifié par beancounter501, 18 mai 2010 - 03:32 .

[DWSmiley]

So a problem with comparablility is that your warriors are competing for opportunities to use their AoE attacks - a competition your PC usually wins.  And it probably becomes a bit of a vicious (or virtuous?) circle as the character getting more kills regains more stamina from death blow and thus can use more talents.  There is probably a mod to get stamina potions in DA:O if you want to mitigate that.

p.s. Alistair should do better if he ran through all his activated DW talents before switching to sustainables.

[beancounter501]

No one is level 12 yet - so no Deathblow. Deathblow should help Alistar a lot since he gets a good percentage of the actual kill hits due to fast attack speed. But yhea - it is a competition to get the kill. So much easier then I thought it would be.



But one thing I have noticed is that party positioning has a huge impact on dmg output. The lead character will get the most dmg since he will get the first perfectly placed AOE attack. Also, Berserk really hurts since you waste a couple of seconds in each fight turning the thing on. I frequently found that the main was able to Sweep and Sunder and usually get the first kill by the time Alistar was even able to join the fight. Hence why you see such a huge difference between the main and Alistar. Sten and Dog are probably the least managed in the party. I am leaving Momentum and Indomitable up for everyone so they are all taking the Stamina hit.



Dog is just wretched. He is good for Howl and maybe keeping one Archer busy.



There is only a set amount of dmg available in a fight and sitting around activating Berserk or getting stunned means the character loses out on a lot of dmg that he can not make up. Theoretical max DPS does not mean much at all when all the monsters are already half dead and the rest of the party has racked up kills. That and the fights are over fast - usually under 20 or so seconds. Early Bird gets the Kill so to speak.



All of this really makes me think a back stabbing Rogue is not nearly as effective as people think. Wasting time positioning is a huge drain on your DPS. Especially since the Rogue can not be lead charger.

[DWSmiley]

beancounter501 wrote...

I am leaving Momentum and Indomitable up for everyone so they are all taking the Stamina hit.

I gotta disagree on that.  Indomitable pays for itself with the immunities it provides - getting stunned is worse at the beginning of a fight than in the middle of it.  But for a DW, you get more mileage by going Riposte/Cripple/Punisher on the nearest or worst beastie, then Sweep/Whirlwind the crowd that's usually gathered by then, then turn on the sustainables to mop up.  Though, yeah, I also skip Berserk if there isn't much left, as it takes too long.  And it's probably tough to run multiple sustains with no mass rejuvenation or song of valor.

Anyway, the best comparability will be between the three npcs.

p.s.  It must be satisfying to have a group that can make use of much of the nifty heavy and massive armor available. 

Modifié par DWSmiley, 18 mai 2010 - 05:10 .

[Tusc]

I like the idea. I am trying something different, using a PC rogue archer ranger and Lelianna and Zevron as archers, with Zev as ranger and Lel as bard. Will get all 3 to be bard and ranger in a couple of levels. For the 4th spot I am using Morrigan for healing right now, but would like to switch her out for dog at some point, once I get a better feel for the tactics involved. I just respecced to this setup last night.

So basically the plan is for 3 bard-rangers and dog.

It's pretty damned effective so far, and no, I am not using any better archery mods or anything. Nightmare difficulty.

Modifié par Tusc, 18 mai 2010 - 07:01 .

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
...Also, Berserk really hurts since you waste a couple of seconds in each fight turning the thing on. I frequently found that the main was able to Sweep and Sunder and usually get the first kill by the time Alistar was even able to join the fight.

I can see the developers point that no one should be in a state of Berserk 24/7...but they could have at least done us a huge favor by drastically shortening the cooldown and getting rid of the ultra-slow cast time. What a headache. As it stands, it also makes the game ever easier. In the hands of the enemy, Berserk is also known as the 'I'll just stand here animating while you kill me' talent.

beancounter501 wrote...
...Theoretical max DPS does not mean much at all when all the monsters are already half dead and the rest of the party has racked up kills.

Theoretical max DPS doesn't mean much at all, except in a very general regard. There's a plethora of factors that influence combat efficacy beyond what you can calculate on paper, as you are well aware.

beancounter501 wrote...
All of this really makes me think a back stabbing Rogue is not nearly as effective as people think. Wasting time positioning is a huge drain on your DPS. Especially since the Rogue can not be lead charger.

Change that to 'back stabbing cunning Rogue' and I'll totally agree. DEX and STR builds don't have the issues you've outlined.

[beancounter501]

@ Smiley - I wonder if I should have Alistar lead? That way I could start each fight with a Whirlwind then Dual Sweep. Then send in the two 2 Hands in too break the crowd up with Sweep. That is the main reason I have been leading with the 2 Hand characters for the nice CC through the knockdown. That and a fast Pommel Strike to any mage that is foolish enough to start casting! Only thing I may forget to turn on Momentum every now and then. Maybe stick that in the tactics so he turns it on as soon as I stop controlling him. Sounds like a plan.



And it is fun to be decked out in massive armor. Plus it is a lot of fun since no character is squishy and no party member is absolutely critical in a battle. That and to just run in and bash something.



@Tusc - Yhea three Rangers is pretty strong. Go Zerg some Darkspawn with your hoard of summons.



@ Random - I agree with your assessment on berserk. It is pretty much a free hit or two on anyone dumb enough to activate it in the middle of a fight. The PC can get away with it, but not some generic Darkspawn.



As for Rogues I would agree that the Dex or Str based Rogue who does not need to flank a target would be much stronger.



I am also thinking about making two characters a Reaver and really try to use Aura of Pain with both. It gets such a bad rap on the boards. Definitely try it with the Str Based S&S character. Give him Cailens Armor, Marics Shield and Sword for the the nice stamina and health regen.

[DWSmiley]

Whoever leads has an advantage not only in getting to attack sooner but also in drawing a crowd, as proximity determines initial threat in nightmare.  But it takes a few seconds to get multiple enemies within the AoE, particularly the smaller AoE of a DW warrior, so it's better for Alistair to do a few single-target talents first.  I don't think you can satisfy the appetite of all your guys for AoE attacks!

For best comparability you probably need to do something like play an area twice, once with a DW leading and again with a 2H leading.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 18 mai 2010 - 09:52 .

[soteria]

For the rogue, I don't know. It's hard to quantify exactly how much time you have to spend getting into position, and I think the only really fair test would be to compare two PCs side-by-side, which would require co-op. What I found with my rogue was I could stagger CC's like Dread Howl, Mind Blast, Cone of Cold, and Holy Smite to get a lot of free backstabs in while reducing incoming party damage.

[beancounter501]

DWSmiley wrote...

For best comparability you probably need to do something like play an area twice, once with a DW leading and again with a 2H leading.

A great idea.  Alas, real life dicates otherwise.  It has taken me almost a month from concept to get through one treaty and pick up Ogren.  I think we would be on Dragon 4 before I had a definitive answer! 

But, I think that having Alistar lead may be a poor idea.  Mainly because the 2 Hand warrior gets hit a lot with Stun and Knockdown hits from being the center of attention.  Much better for the poor dumb AI waste the talents on him then on Alistar.  However, I did do as you suggested and manually turned on Momentum.  He does seem better.  The next big challenge will be the Brecillian Forest!  So I will give some updates once I get to the Werewolf Lair.  Lots of Reavers through the area so should be fun.  No tank and spank here.  Just spank.

[DWSmiley]

Do you like Reaver? I've never taken it. First for rpg reasons; it took me a long time to play a pc who wanted to defile the ashes. Then I looked at the talents and they seem to require flirting with death too much or relying on the game to convert dead beasties to corpses quickly, which it often doesn't for me. I gather it's handy for soloing but I don't, so I've never tried it.

[beancounter501]

Reaver is an OK spec line. It has one really nice talent - Freightning Appearance. Which is basically the same thing as a point blank horror spell. Great for knocking someone out of the fight. I have not really played with the others a whole lot. Hince, I want to try them out! As for unlocking the spec - I used a mod to unlock both Reaver and Blood Mage.

Just went throught Ostager and the Brecilian Forest. Forgot to write down the stats before Ostager so what follows is only the Forest:

Crom(Champ) - 2 Hand Dwarf - Warden Commander Armor + Starfang: 11,042
Alistar(Zerker) - Dual Weld - Juggernault Armor + Duncans Sword & Dagger: 5,310
Sten(Champ) - 2 Hand - Cailens Armor + Yusaris: 6,553
Ogren(Reaver) - Str S&S - Blood Dragon Plate + Marics Sword + Calians Shield: 5,776

Yep, Dual weld has moved into last place on the dmg charts. I really am suprised. BTW, I am now leading with Ogren which probably accounts for his dmg performance. He is starting each fight with Assault + Freightning Appearance then on to Shield Pummel.  Overall I have been very pleased with him.  Solid dmg and always has never really been in danger of dying.  A beast for sure.

For Alistar I have tried everything Chaining Whirlwind + Dual Sweep and then on to Riposte/Cripple/Flurry and then Momentum. He is just lagging. He had quite a few knockdowns and stuns, that combined with the startup for Zerker is the only thing I can see that is holding him back. But it is very apparent that he is lagging when he is attacking one mob and then Sten kills the critter right next to Alistars target with a single Sunder Arms. And Alistar keeps attacking while Sten has gone on to a new target.

I have tried to stop managing the main character so much - but somehow he is constantly the leader of the pack by a mile dmg wise.  Not really sure what is going on there.

Gameplay wise the whole Area + Ostager was a cake walk. Only one difficult fight the entire time: The Reverant that comes with a Skeleton Mage in the first area. I forgot about the mage and he hit the whole party with Chain Lightning which hurt. Plus killed our stamina. But any target all four warriors focus on dies quick. Real quick It is a ton of fun to spam special attacks from all four guys. Multiple Sweeps and Whirlwinds each fight. Plus it is cool to see all that Massive Armor + Enchanted Weapons!

Modifié par beancounter501, 21 mai 2010 - 06:40 .

[Random70]

Some thoughts on your DW...

* Unlike 2H or S/S, DW has a very strong auto attack. By going with the 'skill spam then momentum' strat, you're not making best use of this capability. I'd leave Momentum on at all times and use talents as needed. For example, 'Shield Pummel' or 'Scattershot' appear over your target - use Riposte to interrupt. This will also help with your stun issues.

* By the same token, I'd stay away from dual swords. IMO, a late-game setup of Veshaile + Rose Thorn would provide far better results. Not to mention that by going DW Mastery, you have to waste two full level-ups on DEX which provides no benefit to Sword / Axe damage.

* You're correct that Berserk is wasting a lot of time. Solution: Give everyone Berserk. All four members going Berserk in unison would be quite the sight.

* The mod you're using is taking away one of DW's biggest advantages - fast application of rune damage.

* Due to no immunities, DW needs one (or more?) Hale runes. Bergen's Honor would be nice here if you have it.

* 'Edge' would probably be a much better offhand weapon than Duncan's. Among other things, the +5 damage from the Edge applies to both hands. 

* I'll also note that he's using the crappiest armor that you have. I'd maybe switch with Sten as: 1) 2H would gain more benefit from +3 STR on Juggernaut than DW, 2) +%Dodge and Phys Res. from Cailan's would assist the DW resisting / avoiding stun / knockdown attacks against which they have no immunity, and 3) With a late-game setup of Veshaile / Rose Thorn, Cailan's gloves will make your crits even filthier.

* Unless you're smashing ice sculpture, Cripple sucks. In the time it takes you to animate that activated crit, you could have auto attacked twice.

[beancounter501]

You are going to bankrupt me Random70! But I went ahead and splurged and bought Alistar the Rose Thorn, Veshaile and a Grandmaster Frost Rune. I am going to leave Alistar in Juggernault Plate though. Cailens Armor is just too good with Sten - since he is really benefiting from the decreased fatigue. That and Death Blow has solved all his stamina issues.

Going through the Ruines the knockdown is still really painful for Alistar. The small dragon in there had him on his butt for most of the fight.

Indomitable is probably the best feat for a warrior. Much more valuable then Momentum in my book.

Now, I will probably not take Zerker for Sten or the main. It is just not worth the extra measely 8 pts of dmg. Heck, I have not even turned on Powerful Blows for either of the two hand warriors.

Edit: And I agree about going for Dual Weld Mastery.  The six points of dex is a waste.  I had already decided to not go for it after hitting a 30 dex.  Maybe in a couple of levels, but we will see how Alistar performs.

Modifié par beancounter501, 21 mai 2010 - 11:29 .

[beancounter501]

Just finished up the ruins. Here is all the stats.



Crom: 14,319

Alistar: 8,329

Sten: 7,345

Ogren: 6,658



OK, I broke the bank on Alistar and bought him the best gear possible. Rose Thorn + Versahile. He moved from last to second. And I left momentum on. Still, his performance is in no way nearly as impressive as I would have thought. I know lots of people think the Dual Weld warrior is the best, but......Just not seeing it. Stun/Knockdown is a massive loss in overall dmg. That and high DPS does not matter cause no single target really warrants a high single target DPS. Better to spread the pain. Alistar is kind of at the height of his game. Neither two hand warrior has gotten a Maul yet and I would expect there dmg to pick up once they do.



Burst dmg seems to be more important the DPS, cause the fights are over so quick! I hate to say it but that play through was easier then my playthrough with a Mage. Chaining the sweeps & Whirlwinds to fire one after another just destroyed the wolves. Even the battle against the four Blood Mages in the forest was super easy. Sweep, Pommel Strike, Whirl Wind, Freightning Appearance - I think they got off one or two spells each before dying. Too easy. And it is about to get REALLY easy once we pick up Superiorty on two of the Warriors.