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(Origins, Spoilers) Companions, and the excess of


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#1
Halkus

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NOTE : This contains companion spoilers, they get more in depth as you go on.

Alrighty. I've played pretty much every Bioware game, and from Baldur's Gate there has always been great interest in companions. More is seen as better. The idea has improved and developed over the years. We've had companions that leave in disgust, companions that are incompatible. Wer've had an alignment system which companions have to fit in to, or we have to be extra nice to them etc. Mass Effect went a bit backwards lately and went simple with loyal or not - which is fine Mass Effect is intentionally a simpler game than Dragon Age.

Now in Dragon age we don't just have a good or evil choice, some companions may like what's seen as the good choice and then like what's seen as the evil choice. It really does depend on what their intended personality is. That can't be a bad thing, it means you don't get a flat choice between good companions and evil companions. On a side note, it is pretty easy, and the way Dragon Age leveling goes it doesn't make a huge difference late game with main stats at 50 the difference between an extra 2 str or not isn't hugely significant.

What did strike me as a mistake with Dragon Age (and this has been there in many games, but not to the same level) is the point in the game at which you get a companion. By the end of the 'prelude' you have your main character, a mage (who can be moulded any way you like), a rogue (with a few archery skills) a sword and shield fighter, and a two handed fighter. And a doggy.

Following the game in the way the devs intended... you next get another mage (a healer as opposed to a damage dealer), then you get another rogue (melee rather than ranged). At some point around then you get the DLC golem, who is really a fighter that can switch between general fighter/party support, tank and damage dealer... and is actually quite an inventive addition.

Late in the game you get another two hander, and then you get a direct replacement for your sword and shield guy.

The game allows you 3 companions, which mean you'll almost certainly pick a mage a thief and a warrior, one of them being you. Then someone else, either another tank, a damage dealer or more support. Initially that may be dog, but over time he becomes less useful in comparison.

However by the end of the game, just like NWN2 and Mass Effect you have so many companions that you're only really taking the same ones with you, and you have them kitted out and with tactics that suit. Sadly if you work really really hard on things to make sure you've got the right mix and the tactics just spot on then the game does feel easy. So I imagine many people can get away with taking a mix of characters and doing fine. Additionally you've got your companion "extra" quests to do in order to improve them to friendly, during which in most cases you need to take the useless sap you've paid little attention to along with you.

There was an element in Mass Effect 2 and in Dragon Age that I especially liked. It was the direct replacement of one companion with another. Simply a choice of one or the other (from memory you had it in Baldur's Gate too). It's worth saying that they are all pretty similar to their replacement, this is a good thing though.

So what would be the ideal situation? Companion replacements I think are a good thing. For a start it means that in a game where you do nothing with Oghren other than his own little quest then you simply will choose to have him or not, and if you have him then you'll be using him. If not, then you'll see him when you play through the game again, but you won't be able to do all companion stuff in each playthrough. A little advantage there is that more companion content can be added or made part of the main story.

So going into a little more detail about Dragon Age and the companions in it.

Alistair. Sword and shield. A choice later to swap him for Logain. As far as I can see you can't have both. I like this.

Morrigan. Mage. You get her early on, so you get to make her into whatever you want. However since she's level 5 or so when you get her she's going to be likely carrying some spells you don't want her carrying. Later on (could be much later) you get Wynne, who in my opinion has her skills spent in a way that is more likely to suit everyone. She'd be a nice replacement for Morrigan... Her dialogue does often clash with Morrigan but not to a huge degree... I think the game would have been better if Morrigan had a crisis in the Circle quest which led to her leaving and Wynne joining... or Morrigan staying. It's pretty easy to see why a dyed in the wool circle mage would not join a team with a wild witch...

The Dog. He starts out pretty useful, but as the game goes on he doesn't seem so good as other fighters become able to either tank supremely or turn out a big chain of special attacks. Doggy does have some very useful special attacks, but once they're spent he's just a poor damage dealer. Is Shale his replacement? I guess so. It's probably a good thing that the game doesn't make you choose between them, since doggy is pretty poor later in the game anyway, so there's no real benefit in doing it anywway. Additionally doggy doesn't have his own quests and so on, so there's no reason for the game to force to choose one or the other.

Leliana. Thief. If you aren't playing one then you're going to be using her for a long time. At least until Zevran arrives. When Zevran arrives you're going to erm, well be able to pick one or the other. However again I think the game would improve if you had a choice of one or the other. It'd be pretty reasonable to have the characters opposed to each other by some plot device or other. At that point in the game the player then chooses to "upgrade" Leliana to a melee character, or stick with a ranged rogue.

Sten. Two handed warrior. I've never found him that useful personally. But Oghren and Sten are pretty much the same type of character. I expect Sten has some kind of boosts to make up for no specialisation, I've actually never checked. Sadly though the point at which you get Oghren is pretty late game, at best it'd be halfway. That particular main quest is very difficult with low level characters, so only an experienced or very careful player would get him before doing the other stages.

So... there's actually 5 different "types" of character you get to choose from. But you get to have 9 out of the 10 of them. The worst that happens by recruiting one of them is a little disposition drop by the others in the party.

Sure the companions do have crisis points, which is a good thing I guess, but they're all avoidable. And realistically it doesn't matter much which way you choose to end the quests that cause their crisis points, after the crisis points you're pretty much finished with that chain of events and it's only at the final battle (I didn't need to call in troops) that the troops would make a difference... all in all pretty minor.

So what I'm saying is that I'd like to see there be a stark choice between companions. You either dumped one in favour of another, or you kept them and did not get the replacement.

To use the easiest example I can think of.... during the circle quest you had to decide to ****** everybody off by using Morrigan's talents to enter the fade... at which point Wynne would certainly not join... or you could refuse, and Morrigan would leave in disgust.... You were then left with either Morrigan or Wynne. Either that... or when you got to the start of the quest Morrigan refused to enter with you unless you had a very good relationship with her already (which at that point it's dead easy to have anyway). Should she leave then a circle mage will be offered to be sent with you... which is Wynne and she then joins. Or she helps at the end and offers to join... and Morrigan says she won't travel with people who allow magic to be enslaved the way the circle does... etc. Lots of opportunity to force a switch. The player then continues with either Morrigan or Wynne, and experiences the rest of the game with them... and when they finish they can choose to start again and pick the other one... and by doing that they get a different experience. Rather than the way things are now where you simply arrive back from questing and hand the one that you don't take with you a gift or two and have a conversation and they're happy and have the right xp amount.

At the end of my first playthrough I'd seen most of what the characters that I didn't use had to offer, because I'd seen their personal quests and their camp dialogue.

I should also note that I like the "hardening" of characters, and I hope Bioware keeps going down that path, perhaps making the characters turn out differently if they harden or not... For example a hardened Alistair might become a berserker, while a non-hardened one would be a champion, etc.

As I'm now on my second playthrough I'm likely going to not bother putting any proper equipment on the "also ran" characters. They'll get non magical gear that I was going to sell and it'll just be thrown on them since although the game does force me to use them, it doesn't force me by much, and those fights are less hassle than keeping their equipment and tactics etc up to date.

Modifié par Halkus, 11 avril 2010 - 07:56 .


#2
Epona222

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Is it essay day on the forums? Honestly I couldn't be bothered to plough the entire way through all that on a Sunday night.  Less is more my friend!!!  And certainly more likely to be read by others ;)

IMO there are not too many companions, life isn't always a choice of "one or the other" (unless you're 12 and subject to playground politics of the "if you're friends with her you can't be friends with me" variety). I'd rather have more companions to choose from. If you don't want to spend time getting to know them all and trying them out then don't, just tell them to leave if you don't like them hanging around uselessly, but don't ask the game developers to limit choice for the rest of us!

Besides the interactions between companions is one of the most entertaining non-essential elements of the game, it's worth taking different companions around just to hear the banter....

Modifié par Epona222, 11 avril 2010 - 08:38 .


#3
Halkus

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Really, you should either read everything I typed or not reply.



I find it quite insulting that you've not even bothered to read what I spent a considerable time explaining, yet you feel you can rip it to shreds.

#4
Lintanis

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I think they just put in that many companions to try to give a bigger range of personalities and skills. I tend to just use the companions that work best with whatever character I choose to be.

#5
HopHazzard

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I'm uncertain as to why being forced to choose between one companion and another is a desirable thing. If there was some sort of unavoidable point in the game that forced me to chose between say, Morrigan and Wynne, or Zevran and Leliana, I'd actually be pretty irritated.

#6
Halkus

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HopHazzard wrote...

I'm uncertain as to why being forced to choose between one companion and another is a desirable thing. If there was some sort of unavoidable point in the game that forced me to chose between say, Morrigan and Wynne, or Zevran and Leliana, I'd actually be pretty irritated.


That's certainly true, that's the clear downside of what I'm suggesting. The upside though is that you don't get the other things I mentioned.... there's more room for replays, the character choices mean more, etc.

I've finished one play through of the game, and I've seen pretty much most of what the characters have to offer, even though I stuck with Alistair, Wynne and Leliana, except when forced.

#7
Herr Uhl

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Halkus wrote...

That's certainly true, that's the clear downside of what I'm suggesting. The upside though is that you don't get the other things I mentioned.... there's more room for replays, the character choices mean more, etc.

I've finished one play through of the game, and I've seen pretty much most of what the characters have to offer, even though I stuck with Alistair, Wynne and Leliana, except when forced.


That isn't room for replays, you are forced to replay. There is a big and important difference there. And I don't think you got much of Sten for example if you never brought him anywhere.

Character choices would mean more, yes, but I don't think it would be easily implemented without it feeling cheap and tacked on to force players to make extra playthroughs if it's done in too many instances.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 11 avril 2010 - 09:01 .


#8
Halkus

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Hrm, when you put it as forcing extra playthroughs... I'm not sure I see it that way at all.



How about instead of getting the support of the elves, dwarves and humans... instead you only got the support of one and then the game progressed to the finale. Would you prefer the game said "Oh, and here's all the content you missed by going for the elves instead of the dwarves" or would you prefer it didn't show you and next time you played through you could choose which way to go.



Of course it's not quite the same, but I feel with the game doing most of the character interation with conversations which occur at certain amounts of favour, and gifts being used to curry favour... you can do as much with the companions that sit at the camp doing nothing as you can with the ones you take with you, and that does feel cheap.




#9
oyzar

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If you limit characters you can have at the same time it greatly complicates the mechanics of trying out different tactics and different social combinations. Also, there are probably a large quantity of people who only play the game once (tho they are most likely not on this forum). Those people would be unable to experience all the various interactions by being forced to chose. The content put into the characters is quite considerable, cutting that off is not done lightly.

#10
Raiil

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I like that we have a variety of choices, but IA in that some times it seems like a little much. It actually annoyed me to the point that when I decided to cripple myself in a new playthrough, I did it by killing, dismissing, or refusing all but three companions: I kept Alistair because I had to, Shale because I refuse to not have my stone golem with me, and Dog because... he's Dog and I adore him. In game my PC only took people she thought would be useful against a giant dragon; in meta game, they're the only companions I like (although I can make do with Zevran).




#11
Emerald Melios

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Halkus wrote...

Leliana. Thief. If you aren't playing one then you're going to be using her for a long time. At least until Zevran arrives. When Zevran arrives you're going to erm, well be able to pick one or the other. However again I think the game would improve if you had a choice of one or the other. It'd be pretty reasonable to have the characters opposed to each other by some plot device or other. At that point in the game the player then chooses to "upgrade" Leliana to a melee character, or stick with a ranged rogue.


Not really, it makes sense that they get along fairly well given their similar careers. Only real contention is that Leliana isn't interested in Zevran's uhhh...."other services."

#12
Herr Uhl

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I have a hard time seeing there being more than a few instances where companions can be one or the other, that is my main gripe with it. And then the characters have to be modeled to fit the criteria so that they conflict with another character. It would become much harder to write for the writers for a pretty low payoff, if any at all.



It would start to feel constructed if it's done one or the other for too many of them, which would work against the experience. If done properly, by all means, go ahead.

#13
Halkus

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Well, as far as it seeming constructed, certainly it would do it if they tried to do it retroactively to the game.



However if it was always in their plans for the next Bioware RPG then I'm sure it would work fine.



There's certain parts of the game that are already blatantly constructed that we don't complain about.



For example Redcliffe is fine until we visit there... but the very day we visit is the night that the undead attack. The darkspawn camp out and wait, and wait... and as soon as we do a major plot part they invade the "starter" village.



I agree with Valentia. However not with the solution, for me no solution works, because I've already seen/heard from the companions without really playing the game with them. Had the game made me pick who I take with me, or have people leave the camp if I don't use them etc then I'd have no complaints at all and it would add value to the game since a replay would be more attractive.



Emerald, there's loads and loads of ways it can be forced while not appearing too bad for that particular thing. Zevran/Leliana could become jealous of each other, they might feel with the other rogue there that they are expendable, they might feel the warden favours one over the other, the Crows and the bards may have a falling out... the crows could be hired to kill Leliana by her old friends, etc etc etc. I think we already have a massive suspension of disbelief for most of the game, what I'm asking for isn't a huge amount extra.

#14
Raiil

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Eh, Halkus, I've found that my solution tends not to work well for anyone other than, say, a rogue. I rendered myself unable to pop any locks or disarm traps- not a big deal for me but other get antsy when they can't metagame their way out of situations. :/ My party only works for me because I'm naturally inclined to agree with Alistair on stuff, Shale rarely has an opinion and Dog would love me if I crucified Duncan and ate his liver.

#15
Herr Uhl

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Halkus wrote...

There's certain parts of the game that are already blatantly constructed that we don't complain about.

For example Redcliffe is fine until we visit there... but the very day we visit is the night that the undead attack. The darkspawn camp out and wait, and wait... and as soon as we do a major plot part they invade the "starter" village.


There isn't complaints at the lack of time in the game? I've read heaps of them, most of them before release though.

#16
bnolsen2

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Halkus, I do agree with some of your points. I like the idea of a couple of companions that you have to choose from; however, I do think that most should just join you. ( I know is not Bioware's but...) I liked the idea of choosing between Mira or the wookiee in KoTOR 2.



For some reason though I really do like having the option of choosing from most of the companions at any time. What if I want a party with three mages? Or three rogues?





And on the subject of Morrigan/Wynne..there is a confrontation between the two at the circle if Morrigan is with, but the PC has a chance to talk them out of killing one another.



There are also sometimes story reasons why a character can't leave. Alistair shouldn't be able to be swapped until the landsmeet because of his political importance, and the fact that you have to TELL Morrigan to leave is important too because she's needed for the Dark Ritual.



Overall I agree to a certain extent but I dont want to always lose say Zevran because I chose Leliana.

#17
Halkus

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Sorry if I wasn't clear on it Valentia. I could do the same by kicking everybody out apart from Leliana, Alistair and Morrigan. The point is though as much as that would limit me to focusing on just those characters....I've already seen what the other characters have to offer, so I can't look forward to a playthrough to see how they react, and gifts for them, and their personal quests etc etc.



I do agree with you though, I just wish someone had made me sternly promise not to recruit anyone "extra" and to get rid of whoever I didn't want. That would have saved a lot of the game for a replay for me. Sadly it's too late now.

#18
Halkus

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bnolsen2 wrote...

There are also sometimes story reasons why a character can't leave. Alistair shouldn't be able to be swapped until the landsmeet because of his political importance, and the fact that you have to TELL Morrigan to leave is important too because she's needed for the Dark Ritual.

Overall I agree to a certain extent but I dont want to always lose say Zevran because I chose Leliana.


I couldn't agree with you more about Alistair. He's required up to that point, and the minute he isn't required the game gives you an opportunity to replace him with frankly a pragmatic choice of what appears to be a sound politician and patriot... and an evil bastard too :) Bearing in mind that Alistair is an inexperienced warden with only a shadow of the talent required for the jon that his replacement has.

I also conceed that it might be worth making sure that the player cannot have too many companions, so that if they choose to have 2 rogues then they can indeed have 2 rogues.

After all it's desirable to allow the game to be played with whatever combination of characters the player chooses, after all that's more fun.

On the other hand though it is a bit dodgy if the player can say "Ok, it's time for Redcliffe, and for that I want archers, not mages... time to swap out". I think that feels a bit cheesy.. I'd be much happier with a smaller bank of characters that evolved over time, allowing me to choose from a pool of say 5 characters at most, with the game making an effort to go back to 4 (not including the warden) with dialog choices... perhaps when it hits 6 it gets to crisis point and you get forced to make a choice between 2 characters, but at 5 you have time to make sure it's the one you want rid of that leaves....

Anyway, my point is not about me explaining the minutae of the details, I just want to argue that too many characters is not a good thing, and that there are plenty of ways of the game controlling it.

Oh.... here's something for a bit of fun.

"No Warden, this indeed is the capital city of Feredlen, however Denerim cannot have more than 4 characters in at a time, one of you needs to wait in the camp out there. Guild of roadbuilders passed legislation last month to cut down on wear on the cobbles."

"Grrr Warden, it's not fair if you bring all of your friends to attack us poor werewolves at once. We've grouped together in packs no larger than 7 (except the boss fight) and we've evenly spaced ourselves out through the ruins."

#19
Raiil

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Halkus wrote...

I do agree with you though, I just wish someone had made me sternly promise not to recruit anyone "extra" and to get rid of whoever I didn't want. That would have saved a lot of the game for a replay for me. Sadly it's too late now.


I would have killed for that option. :P

#20
mousestalker

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Redcliffe is not fine until we visit there. Everyone you speak with tells you they have been under constant nightly attack.



As to your main point, I'm opposed for purely selfish reasons. I like the companions' personalities. So In all but my first playthrough, I've selected teams based upon how their personalities interact rather than how their skills mesh. I enjoyed the tank, warrior, rogue, mage team every bit as much as the three rogues and Dog team or three mages and Shale. I generally swap companions out for dialogue reasons or when forced to (Sten when first confronted with children playing is worthwhile).



If I were interested in min maxing, I'd likely agree more with you. But I have little to no interest in that sort of game play.

#21
Halkus

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Yet it's make or break in Redcliffe the very day we arrive.... If we put it off by trekking to Haven, then down to the Deeproads and up the Circle tower,etc then Redcliffe is exactly the same when we arrive much later than it was if we had gone straight there. My point is that I'm not complaining about that plot mechanic, I very much like it, however it is a game mechanic which forces the player to do something.