74 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

I dunno man, I can still hum Contra's jungle theme note for note

[A Killing Sound]

Appolo, yet by that arguement you say final fantasy VI is inferior to Xenosaga and Chrono Cross!? Those games borrowed artisic designs from your other previously mentioned games! Xenosaga rips off designs from Xenogears (Elly/Shion), so no originality there, and Chrono Cross reuses music from Trigger, so to say those games have better design by artisic merit is ridiculous.

Besides, this is a topic comparing Mass Effect 2 to Final Fantasy VI.  Let's try to get back on track here people!

Modifié par A Killing Sound, 12 avril 2010 - 07:45 .

[marshalleck]

It's not correct to say Xenosaga rips off Xenogears, as it is a conceptual reimagining of the earlier game. That's why there are some direct similarities between the two. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 12 avril 2010 - 07:44 .

[A Killing Sound]

When Shion wears the exact same outfit in Episode 1 as Elly did in gears (albit a color change) it might not be a rip off, but it is definately lazy.

[marshalleck]

I think you're not understanding what is meant by a conceptual reimagining



Re-using the character designs is absolutely intentional, and it's not due to laziness

[Mercuriol]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Well don't get me wrong, I do love Final Fantasy VI but, Xenogears for example heavily explored the ideas and concepts of four of the greatest philosophers the world has ever known, a tonne of religious, political and militaristic themes, economics, racism, ethics, the nature of existence, God, and the universe, many different scientific themes, love, betrayal, friendship, revenge, identity, psychology, the subjectivity of memory, experience and reality, the struggle between man and machine, and many, many more, and more than that, it didn't just make references to such themes in a vague manner, but it explored them in enormous detail and tied some of them directly to the underlying role of the storyline ("God is Dead", eternal recurrence, the Overman to name a few). And it explored the themes over dozens of hours so as to not upset the balance and pacing of the storyline.
(...)
Final Fantasy VI was great but it was nowhere near as advanced as
something like Xenogears and the same applies to the other games.

That's very nice and all, but I don't really see how one could add Radical Dreamers nor Chrono Cross to that. Granted, they did try to make something very nice of CC, but it collapsed under it's own weight. It's pretty graphics, good music, ****loads of boring characters (about 95% of them) and a convoluted mess of a story with pretty much none of that philosophical or emotional depth. Chrono Trigger doen't do that much either really, but CT really perfects it's simplicity.

[A Killing Sound]

Agrees with Mercuriol



Also, back on the FFVI/Mass Effect 2 topic, Kasumi gave the game a Locke esque character, and Cyan, like Thane always seemed to be the father that never said what he needed to to his family when he had the chance.



As a joke, Mass Effect 2 needs a side comical villain like Ultros!

[Captain Tibs]

totally off topic but has any one else noticed that NOBODY can walk quietly in FFXIII

[A Killing Sound]

lol now that you mention it...

[Mercuriol]

A Killing Sound wrote...

As a joke, Mass Effect 2 needs a side comical villain like Ultros!

Don't tease the hanar, kids!

Modifié par Mercuriol, 12 avril 2010 - 08:00 .

[A Killing Sound]

Mercuriol wrote...

A Killing Sound wrote...

As a joke, Mass Effect 2 needs a side comical villain like Ultros!

Don't tease the hanar, kids!

[ApolloCloud]

Mercuriol wrote...
That's very nice and all, but I don't really see how one could add Radical Dreamers nor Chrono Cross to that. Granted, they did try to make something very nice of CC, but it collapsed under it's own weight. It's pretty graphics, good music, ****loads of boring characters (about 95% of them) and a convoluted mess of a story with pretty much none of that philosophical or emotional depth. Chrono Trigger doen't do that much either really, but CT really perfects it's simplicity.

Yes they did. Where Xenogears may explore the concepts of eternal recurrence and the Overman etc.. the Chrono series is off exploring determinism, the relativity of simultaneity, the causation solution, chaos theory and other elements of the philosophy of space and time. And they explore said themes in a manner that's directly tied in with the stories that they tell.

[Mercuriol]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Yes they did. Where Xenogears may explore the concepts of eternal recurrence and the Overman etc.. the Chrono series is off exploring determinism, the relativity of simultaneity, the causation solution, chaos theory and other elements of the philosophy of space and time. And they explore said themes in a manner that's directly tied in with the stories that they tell.

But would you say those themes were much discussed in CC? Sure it had it's moments in Miguel and Chronopolis and some light moments with those those dwarves in the marshes and the inhabitants of Marbule, but to say it went deep a lot? No, at least hardly deeper than in other games. Yes time/dimensional travelling is nice, but it could have been less messy. CC's story is often vague or a bit irrational, relying on deus ex machinas more than once.

I appreciate that they tried to do something different and tried a really complex story, but not every part of it worked out. Aside from all that the game also suffers from slow pacing and a general allround character blandness.

Turning the argument arround one could say that FFVI isn't that depthless either. Existentialism, nihilism and consequences of genocide, enslavement, imperialism, totalitarianism and religious zealotry etc are things the game discusses. Even insane clown Kefka started questioning it's and other's purpose.

[Invalidcode]

Interesting topic.

FFVI, CC are some of the best JRPG ever made, alone with many Square Soft titles.



JRPG been going downhill over the last many years...right now there are some good ones, but tbh as a whole the current era doesn't hold a candle compare to the FFVI era. (Technology aside of course.)

On the other hand WRPG are improving every year. (BW products are a great example.)

CRPG, as the name suggest, stands the test of time.



Ok... now I feel like an old man ranting.

[marshalleck]

Tales of Vesperia and Lost Odyssey were both pretty good for JRPG. And I wouldn't say western RPGs are improving, unless you consider a growing emphasis on action over reoleplay or strategy an improvement.



I'm not saying it's bad, but the direction is shifting. Also, I am really getting sick of the Tolkienesque high fantasy. Seriously. Enough ****ing dragons, elves, and wizards already.

[Invalidcode]

marshalleck wrote...

Tales of Vesperia and Lost Odyssey were both pretty good for JRPG. And I wouldn't say western RPGs are improving, unless you consider a growing emphasis on action over reoleplay or strategy an improvement.

There are some goods jrpg now, but compare to Square Soft golden
age...still lacking; though I am looking forward to the new ones, since
many Jrpg dev getting the hang of making 'next gen' rpg now.

I guess the more tradition WRPG doesn't suite me much?

I'm not saying it's bad, but the direction is shifting. Also, I am really getting sick of the Tolkienesque high fantasy. Seriously. Enough ****ing dragons, elves, and wizards already.

It's normal I guess? High fantansy setting just been around soooo long.


RPG had been a overused term for a few years now...many games just stick the 'RPG' tag on themselves even it really isn't a RPG, just one example out of many game: Bioshock, great game with great story but come on it is more of a action advanture.

BTW: Someone translate LIVEALIVE. (2 or 3 people here will know what I am talking about )

Modifié par Invalidcode, 12 avril 2010 - 10:51 .

[billywaffles]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Well don't get me wrong, I do love Final Fantasy VI but, Xenogears for example heavily explored the ideas and concepts of four of the greatest philosophers the world has ever known, a tonne of religious, political and militaristic themes, economics, racism, ethics, the nature of existence, God, and the universe, many different scientific themes, love, betrayal, friendship, revenge, identity, psychology, the subjectivity of memory, experience and reality, the struggle between man and machine, and many, many more, and more than that, it didn't just make references to such themes in a vague manner, but it explored them in enormous detail and tied some of them directly to the underlying role of the storyline ("God is Dead", eternal recurrence, the Overman to name a few). And it explored the themes over dozens of hours so as to not upset the balance and pacing of the storyline.

And beyond just its sheer depth its arguably the most complex story I've ever come across (think of the likes of Neon Genesis Evangellion, any david Lynch Film, A Clockwork Orange, primer etc. and then magnify their levels of complexity by about a hundred and you approach what Xenogears has to offer). Absurdly complicated narrative structure and subject matter, a tonne of mystery and ambiguity, an insane amount of symbolism, and plot reveleations that make you question everything that you were lead to believe about the story up until that point, but actually make more sense looking back on on it in light of the mentioned plot revelation. And just so many dimenions to the storyline depending on the perspective from which you look at it.

Final Fantasy VI was great but it was nowhere near as advanced as something like Xenogears and the same applies to the other games.

I'd also argue that the art direction and music is heavily leaning in the favour of the mentioned games (the music for Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, and Radical Dreamers is at least).

Agree 100%. Xenogears has probably the best story ever created for a rpg.

Back on topic, while OP has a point, in VI you actually look for "your friends" in the World of Ruin. That is a big difference. In ME2 you do their quests because you need to gain their loyalty. In VI you look for them after the world is destroyed because they are already your friends and you really care about what happened to them (the epic theme "Searching for friends" comes to my mind...).

[txgoldrush]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Well don't get me wrong, I do love Final Fantasy VI but, Xenogears for example heavily explored the ideas and concepts of four of the greatest philosophers the world has ever known, a tonne of religious, political and militaristic themes, economics, racism, ethics, the nature of existence, God, and the universe, many different scientific themes, love, betrayal, friendship, revenge, identity, psychology, the subjectivity of memory, experience and reality, the struggle between man and machine, and many, many more, and more than that, it didn't just make references to such themes in a vague manner, but it explored them in enormous detail and tied some of them directly to the underlying role of the storyline ("God is Dead", eternal recurrence, the Overman to name a few). And it explored the themes over dozens of hours so as to not upset the balance and pacing of the storyline.

And beyond just its sheer depth its arguably the most complex story I've ever come across (think of the likes of Neon Genesis Evangellion, any david Lynch Film, A Clockwork Orange, primer etc. and then magnify their levels of complexity by about a hundred and you approach what Xenogears has to offer). Absurdly complicated narrative structure and subject matter, a tonne of mystery and ambiguity, an insane amount of symbolism, and plot reveleations that make you question everything that you were lead to believe about the story up until that point, but actually make more sense looking back on on it in light of the mentioned plot revelation. And just so many dimenions to the storyline depending on the perspective from which you look at it.

Final Fantasy VI was great but it was nowhere near as advanced as something like Xenogears and the same applies to the other games.

I'd also argue that the art direction and music is heavily leaning in the favour of the mentioned games (the music for Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, and Radical Dreamers is at least).

The Xenogears and Xenosaga games are so overrated. Yes, they are more complex than FFVI, but FFVI is far better told. A good well told story beats a very deep but poorly told story, which Xenogears is, especially on the second disc. Thats why I put games like FFVI, Chrono Trigger, and Suikoden II (hands down the best RPG on the first playstation) over it.

Oh, and in Suikoden II, your decisions and actions matter.

[txgoldrush]

A Killing Sound wrote...

Agrees with Mercuriol

Also, back on the FFVI/Mass Effect 2 topic, Kasumi gave the game a Locke esque character, and Cyan, like Thane always seemed to be the father that never said what he needed to to his family when he had the chance.

As a joke, Mass Effect 2 needs a side comical villain like Ultros!

Kasumi's storyline is very similiar to Locke's...the happy and upbeat thief, but can't let go of a lost loved one. Kasumi and Keiji are very similiar to Locke and Rachel.

Miranda is like Celes, a defrosting ice queen

But, the story structure and quest structure are more comparable to FFVI than the characters are. You don't see 10 year old artists do you?

However, in both games, the emotional storylines of the characters pack a punch. I will never forget the scene where Celes threw herself off the cliff after the death of Cid.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 13 avril 2010 - 12:16 .

[txgoldrush]

marshalleck wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

I see the parallels you mention OP, interesting comparison (thought you meant that new FF game at a glance till I registered the "VI" part).
I use to play that game like a video crackhead when I was a teen. I, IV, VI, and VII were my favorite FF games by far. Then they started getting too futuristic weird and I started having trouble telling who was male and who was female (SquareEnix for some reason doesn't approve of male facial structure).

Male or female? You decide!

Man, FFXIII was bad...he was the best character, but thats not saying much...

Another FFVI-ME2 similairty...each character has his or her own lietmoif..or musical theme. The only character lacking one is Zaeed from ME2.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 13 avril 2010 - 01:51 .

[A Killing Sound]

Zaeed doesn't need a goddamn musical theme.  His theme is the firing of concussive shots

[txgoldrush]

A Killing Sound wrote...

Zaeed doesn't need a goddamn musical theme.  His theme is the firing of concussive shots

Its lazy...Kasumi gets a great music theme....with even a piano section.

Faves themes from ME2: Jack, Thane, Legion, and Kasumi
Faves from FFVI: Celes, Terra, and Relm

Modifié par txgoldrush, 13 avril 2010 - 05:13 .

[IndustrializedTaco]

i'm a bit biased here beacuse i never liked final fantasy so Mass Effect 2

[IndustrializedTaco]

i'm a bit biased here beacuse i never liked final fantasy so Mass Effect 2

[vhatever]

billywaffles wrote...



Back on topic, while OP has a point, in VI you actually look for "your friends" in the World of Ruin. That is a big difference. In ME2 you do their quests because you need to gain their loyalty. In VI you look for them after the world is destroyed because they are already your friends and you really care about what happened to them (the epic theme "Searching for friends" comes to my mind...).

One of the reoccuring  themes in ultima was returning from earth to Britania, and then going about questing to reaquire your friends from previous ultima's. Shimano. Iolo, Duprey, etc.

Like I said, it all goes back to ultima.