74 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaeliorin]

Honestly, the best JRPGs were Xenogears, Chrono Trigger (Chrono Cross really isn't very good. Not only is the combat system terrible, but the whole story was just a freaking sidequest from Chrono Trigger), and Shadow Hearts (particularly Shadow Hearts 2, but 1+2 tell a continuous story. Shadow Hearts 3 is...okay, I guess, though I dislike their choice of main character, simply because of his abilities.)



Oh, and the best Final Fantasy game (and number 4 on the list of best RPGs) is Final Fantasy Tactics.



Anyway, I suppose that there are certain similarities between FF6 and ME2, but it's not like the story of either is really that original (though I can't recall any books that were ripped off in FF6, while Jacob's loyalty mission is basically a super-condensed Heart of Darkness.)

[Darkhour]

A Killing Sound wrote...

ApolloCloud wrote...

Final Fantasy VI is not the definitive JRPG. Xenogears, Xenosaga, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, and Radical Dreamers are all vastly superior in just about every area that matters for a JRPG (art direction, music, and storyline).

The above statement is correct if you subtract the words Xenosaga, Chrono Cross, and Radical Dreamers.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[txgoldrush]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Honestly, the best JRPGs were Xenogears, Chrono Trigger (Chrono Cross really isn't very good. Not only is the combat system terrible, but the whole story was just a freaking sidequest from Chrono Trigger), and Shadow Hearts (particularly Shadow Hearts 2, but 1+2 tell a continuous story. Shadow Hearts 3 is...okay, I guess, though I dislike their choice of main character, simply because of his abilities.)

Oh, and the best Final Fantasy game (and number 4 on the list of best RPGs) is Final Fantasy Tactics.

Anyway, I suppose that there are certain similarities between FF6 and ME2, but it's not like the story of either is really that original (though I can't recall any books that were ripped off in FF6, while Jacob's loyalty mission is basically a super-condensed Heart of Darkness.)

Final Fantasy Tactics is great...haha FFVII isn't even the best FF of 1997. The problem with FFT in its original release is the translation. It was pretty bad. I haven't played War of the Lions for PSP but I heard they fixed it. What makes me put FFVI over FFT is that FFVI has more heart to its story. Xenogears is an 8 out of 10 game, its a good game, but not as great as everyone says it is. Disc 2 was unfinished and it felt like it.

FFVI was original for its time, or the twist was. That was very new to see the world get sundered like that. That subverted cliche.

The best JRPGs

1. Final Fantasy VI
2. Chrono Trigger
3. Suikoden II
4. Mother 3
5. Final Fantasy Tactics

[NeroSparda]

How come Shin Megami Tensei not included in this list? I mean seriously, this series have been using the proper WRPG familiar since SNES, though it remained in Japan till Nocturne (at least 50 hours of gameplay with 6 possible endings) came out for the PS2. Though Soul Nomad took FFVI twist to a further level, if you want to destory the two worlds after killing everyone.



ANYHOW. I still think FFVI is better than Mass Effect (both are good however). Even though I didn't complete FFVI, I need to finish it, now where did I put that game?

[Darkhour]

txgoldrush wrote...

Xenogears is an 8 out of 10 game, its a ...

Xenogears is WHAT!?!?

...I stopped tracking after I killed you.

[txgoldrush]

Darkhour wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Xenogears is an 8 out of 10 game, its a ...

Xenogears is WHAT!?!?

...I stopped tracking after I killed you.

Its a love it or hate it game...although I lean towards the former. But the flaws are noticable. It was unfinished. It was well known that Square rushed this game to put more focus on FFVIII and on Xenogears second disc, it showed. The pacing and direction really suffered. Also, the gameplay elements are not the best in the genre. This game is known for its complex story, but story alone doesn't make the game. Thats why I put Baldur's Gate II over Planescape Torment (both would be on my top 10 RPGs list).

----

About the SMT series, I like the games, but I wouldn't put it in my top 5.....the crazy stories is one reason.

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If you guys have not played Suikoden II, do so...........hopefully it will be released on PSN soon like the inferior first game. While the game is in a colorful anime style, the story is very dark and tragic....and breaks or subverts almost all JRPG cliches. And Luca Blight is hands down, one of the most despicable villains in gaming (and one of the best). His downfall is classic.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 13 avril 2010 - 07:47 .

[zchen]

Final Fantasy V already did the different Worlds/world get sundered idea before VI, and did it better than VI in my opinion.

The problem V faced internationally is that it was never released officially in the West until PS1 and that translation wasn't even good; so few got to experience it. Those who did play later never got past the dated graphics and bad translation. (cue those that makes fun of main character name and evil tree boss.) The game play has yet to be trumped by any other in the FF core series.


And Xenogears has been talked about so much it's now overrated. infact all the convuluted psychological philosophical stuff from that game reminds me very much so of another overrated product of 1990s era......Evangelion

Modifié par zchen, 13 avril 2010 - 11:40 .

[Invalidcode]

Evangelion

Beginning was great, after the show literally went psycho it became boring.



FFT...I like Ogre battle better (It was made by mostly the same team members, despite different companies)

The problem V faced internationally is that it was never released officially in the West until PS1 and that translation wasn't even good; so few got to experience it. Those who did play later never got past the dated graphics and bad translation. (cue those that makes fun of main character name and evil tree boss.) The game play has yet to be trumped by any other in the FF core series.

Not just FF, many other Japanese games suffer from bad translations, fan translated versions were way better... also the fact that Japanese doesn't translate well into English in the first place doesn't help either.



Shin Megami Tensei: Famous series but I really don't think the western game world played it much.

[cachx]

txgoldrush wrote...
The best JRPGs

1. Final Fantasy VI
2. Chrono Trigger
3. Suikoden II
4. Mother 3
5. Final Fantasy Tactics

Here is a cookie for mentioning Suikoden 2, that game was amazing. Too bad the sequels didn't manage to live up to it.

Also FFVI is at the top of all my lists, but I'm biased, that was the first RPG that I played and completed. and the one that got me into RPG's to start with.

[Darkhour]

Invalidcode wrote...

FFT...I like Ogre battle better (It was made by mostly the same team members, despite different companies)

Do you mean Tactics Ogre? I loved that one and Vandal Hearts.

What I didn't like about Final Fantasy Tactics was that there was no room for failure. Everyone had to survive every battle or all your troops would be under leveled as newly hired troops started at lvl 1. That or figure out a way to keep the main character from leveling (which determined nemey level), which would be kinda lame. Kinda made the mercenary system pointless. I recall my first time playing and I got to the first level with a boss character. Not only was he higher level than everyone else, but so was all the regulars. Despite this I managed to kill all the regulars and still have the majority of my troops alive, but that boss could singlehandedly kill all my people, including me.  The average level of my troops was simply too low to stand any chance against him. Figured out pretty quick that no one could ever die because there was no ability to train troops outside of real battle like Tactics Ogres. Or am I mistaken? It's been awhile since I've played it. 

My favorites are, not including ME or anything I've mention above:
(In no particular order I liked)

Secret of Mana
FF4
FF6
FF7
Phantasy Star 4
Xenogears
Chrono Trigger
Lunar (short, but sweet)
Skies of Arcadia
Baldur's Gate

I've played Suikoden I, but I think 2 came out around the time I stopped playing video games. Didn;t start back up until I was deployed to Afghanistan. Never played KOTOR, Jade Empire or any other Bioware game from the more distant past besides BG1.

Modifié par Darkhour, 14 avril 2010 - 02:15 .

[txgoldrush]

Suikoden II is quite rare and may very well be the most expensive game for the first Playstation. I have seen it listed for over $200 for new copies.

[HolyMoogle]

FFXIII may be the donkey's ass, but don't bag FFI - XII, they're great! And XIV is shaping up very well too, so is Versus XIII.

[enormousmoonboots]

NeroSparda wrote...



How come Shin Megami Tensei not included in this list? I mean seriously, this series have been using the proper WRPG familiar since SNES, though it remained in Japan till Nocturne (at least 50 hours of gameplay with 6 possible endings) came out for the PS2. Though Soul Nomad took FFVI twist to a further level, if you want to destory the two worlds after killing everyone.

Oh thank god someone mentioned SMT, I was getting my rage face on. All y'all other JRPGs can ****** off with your allegories, you can just straight-up kill God in MegaTen. This thread is full of casuals B| Seriously, guys, if you call yourself a JRPG fan and haven't played Nocturne, Persona 3/4, or Devil Summoner...it's like saying "I love desserts, but what's this cake thing you're talking about?"



Symbolism? Philosophy? Psychology? God? Nature of existence? This is all totally standard Shin Megami Tensei fare. Is there a single game in the series that doesn't touch on most of that? (Well, Jack Bros...) Xenogears is kid stuff after you kick God out and replace him.



More SMT info. Yeah, I did a series writeup in my spare time because I had nothing better to do.

[ApolloCloud]

Nah. While I do love the MT franchise there are many other franchises/stand alone titles that match/surpass it in the elements you described, namely Xenogears, the Xenosaga series, the Chrono series, the Metal Gear series, the Baten Kaitos series, the Shadow Hearts series, the .hack series, and the Valkyrie Profile series. All of those explore religious/philosophical/psychological themes just as much as the MT franchise does, and in the case of Xenogears, Xenosaga and the Chrono series, to a much greater extent.

[HolyMoogle]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

NeroSparda wrote...

How come Shin Megami Tensei not included in this list? I mean seriously, this series have been using the proper WRPG familiar since SNES, though it remained in Japan till Nocturne (at least 50 hours of gameplay with 6 possible endings) came out for the PS2. Though Soul Nomad took FFVI twist to a further level, if you want to destory the two worlds after killing everyone.

Oh thank god someone mentioned SMT, I was getting my rage face on. All y'all other JRPGs can ****** off with your allegories, you can just straight-up kill God in MegaTen. This thread is full of casuals B| Seriously, guys, if you call yourself a JRPG fan and haven't played Nocturne, Persona 3/4, or Devil Summoner...it's like saying "I love desserts, but what's this cake thing you're talking about?"

Symbolism? Philosophy? Psychology? God? Nature of existence? This is all totally standard Shin Megami Tensei fare. Is there a single game in the series that doesn't touch on most of that? (Well, Jack Bros...) Xenogears is kid stuff after you kick God out and replace him.

More SMT info. Yeah, I did a series writeup in my spare time because I had nothing better to do.

SMT might take an even more scatter-gun approach to its inspiration than Final Fantasy, but I wouldn't go overboard in how much credit I give it for use of symbolism, philosophy and religion and so forth... Like a lot of videogame series, it more provides "inspiration" for further investigation than genuine depth itself.

[Hollingdale]

Nietzche doesn't make a good RPG seriously.

[casedawgz]

FF4 will always be my favorite JRPG. Other than the typical JRPG out of left field final boss, I enjoy the story greatly. The relationship between Cecil, Kain, and Rosa is really quite complex. There's that whole question of "sure, Kain is brainwashed, but part of him really wanted to act in this manner" element that I love.

[Darkhour]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Nah. While I do love the MT franchise there are many other franchises/stand alone titles that match/surpass it in the elements you described, namely Xenogears, the Xenosaga series, the Chrono series, the Metal Gear series, the Baten Kaitos series, the Shadow Hearts series, the .hack series, and the Valkyrie Profile series. All of those explore religious/philosophical/psychological themes just as much as the MT franchise does, and in the case of Xenogears, Xenosaga and the Chrono series, to a much greater extent.

There is no Chrono Series. Chrono Cross is a seperate game is a lower league that does nothing but **** all over the characters in Chrono Trigger. The only part I really enjoyed was inhabiting Lynx's body. Played it once and never touched it again despite its alternate story paths.

[txgoldrush]

ApolloCloud wrote...

Nah. While I do love the MT franchise there are many other franchises/stand alone titles that match/surpass it in the elements you described, namely Xenogears, the Xenosaga series, the Chrono series, the Metal Gear series, the Baten Kaitos series, the Shadow Hearts series, the .hack series, and the Valkyrie Profile series. All of those explore religious/philosophical/psychological themes just as much as the MT franchise does, and in the case of Xenogears, Xenosaga and the Chrono series, to a much greater extent.

complexity does not mean its better and sometimes works with religious/philosophical/psychological themes can be forced. Xenogears and Xenosaga, especially Xenosaga, forces the issue and it feels like it.

A well told story beats a complex one for complexities sake.

And FFVI has its own humanistic themes...important ones, like dealing with a loss of a loved one.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

txgoldrush wrote...

Can't help but think that Bioware took a few pointers from FFVI.......one aspect that FFVI that ME2 lacks (but the first game didn't), is a strong central antagonist. ME2 had the collectors....but FFVI had a scene stealing Satan clown with a very cruel nature and  a love of sadism, suffering, and death. I my opinion, he is still the greatest RPG villain in gaming history, although Baldur's Gate II's Jon Irenicus comes close (as does Luca Blight of Suikoden II).

And for all the JRPG haters and FF haters....yes the FF series has gone to crap and so have JRPGs...but FFVI is the definitive FF and JRPG. It's not only the best game in the series, but the best JRPG of all time (with Chrono Trigger a close second). Both JRPG and WRPG fans owe it to play this game. Its far better than the overrated FFVII that is the false standard, or the crap that is FFXIII.

i bow before you.

100% agreed. and i also would like to add that i think Celes is by far one of the greatest protagonist characters ever concocted.

[txgoldrush]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Can't help but think that Bioware took a few pointers from FFVI.......one aspect that FFVI that ME2 lacks (but the first game didn't), is a strong central antagonist. ME2 had the collectors....but FFVI had a scene stealing Satan clown with a very cruel nature and  a love of sadism, suffering, and death. I my opinion, he is still the greatest RPG villain in gaming history, although Baldur's Gate II's Jon Irenicus comes close (as does Luca Blight of Suikoden II).

And for all the JRPG haters and FF haters....yes the FF series has gone to crap and so have JRPGs...but FFVI is the definitive FF and JRPG. It's not only the best game in the series, but the best JRPG of all time (with Chrono Trigger a close second). Both JRPG and WRPG fans owe it to play this game. Its far better than the overrated FFVII that is the false standard, or the crap that is FFXIII.

i bow before you.

100% agreed. and i also would like to add that i think Celes is by far one of the greatest protagonist characters ever concocted.

I am kinda mad that Celes wasn't chosen for Dissidia (although I like Terra a lot)...........until I saw what they did to Terra in Dissida....yuck.

Celes even had her own FMV sequence for the PS1 version...

[parfois]

Hollingdale wrote...

Nietzche doesn't make a good RPG seriously.

Sure he does- Xenogears regularly tops most lists as not only the best RPG of PS1, but of all time and genres.

What people have said about the philosophy/psychology/theology being forced... there is some truth to this. Likewise for the "rushed" feeling of the second disc. Although very far from a Lynch film (who often parodies the type of Freudianism Xenogears emphasizes), I would put it on par with Dostoevsky. I believe the questions Xenogears poses find their first expression in his treatment of Nietzsche. The -Ethos- story functions quite similarly to the Grand Inquisitor. Billy Lee Black was once called Alyosha, Fei Fong Wong Prince Myshkin, and Krelian Raskolnikov or some other demon. I see Xenogears attempting to come to terms with Nietzsche in a way akin to Dostoevsky. It may just be a function of my drawing parallels between pleasures (like ME2 & FFVI), but I think in spite of itself the game is deeply philosophical and will be in high demand as time passes.

In fact, it may be the reason why I stopped playing video games: its plot is unparalleled in video games and still fails to be as complex as a novel. I realized the literariness I was so enamored with in Xenogears was best expressed, well, in literature, and that holding up other games to Xenogears' literary standards would inevitably leave me empty-handed. If everyone I know holds Xenogears to be the best RPG (and other SNES/PS1 generation games), why are they not making games like this anymore? On the one hand it makes sense: shootemups and sportsmashers appeal to a wider audience, more revenue.. blah blah blah. On the other hand, I don't really feel like playing video games that don't provide that 'depth' I found so deep in Xenogears... so I stopped. Maybe video game joy is flying through Mario without dying or thinking, no scope headshots, clickandloot 12 hour raids, screen passes on third down, collecting them all, super combos, maxing out, bloons, pwning, etc. etc.  and I just can't get it up anymore. I'll go ahead and tell you that I'm not so sure this is the case. Fake breasts don't do it for me. Neither do airbrushes.

All this to say that principles in video games are pretty much self-defeating and the banter of forumposts like this one. That I wish they still made video games like they used to. That I've decided to read books instead of attempting to find a game that could rival Xenogears. That I should probably stop...

[txgoldrush]

parfois wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

Nietzche doesn't make a good RPG seriously.

Sure he does- Xenogears regularly tops most lists as not only the best RPG of PS1, but of all time and genres.

What people have said about the philosophy/psychology/theology being forced... there is some truth to this. Likewise for the "rushed" feeling of the second disc. Although very far from a Lynch film (who often parodies the type of Freudianism Xenogears emphasizes), I would put it on par with Dostoevsky. I believe the questions Xenogears poses find their first expression in his treatment of Nietzsche. The -Ethos- story functions quite similarly to the Grand Inquisitor. Billy Lee Black was once called Alyosha, Fei Fong Wong Prince Myshkin, and Krelian Raskolnikov or some other demon. I see Xenogears attempting to come to terms with Nietzsche in a way akin to Dostoevsky. It may just be a function of my drawing parallels between pleasures (like ME2 & FFVI), but I think in spite of itself the game is deeply philosophical and will be in high demand as time passes.

In fact, it may be the reason why I stopped playing video games: its plot is unparalleled in video games and still fails to be as complex as a novel. I realized the literariness I was so enamored with in Xenogears was best expressed, well, in literature, and that holding up other games to Xenogears' literary standards would inevitably leave me empty-handed. If everyone I know holds Xenogears to be the best RPG (and other SNES/PS1 generation games), why are they not making games like this anymore? On the one hand it makes sense: shootemups and sportsmashers appeal to a wider audience, more revenue.. blah blah blah. On the other hand, I don't really feel like playing video games that don't provide that 'depth' I found so deep in Xenogears... so I stopped. Maybe video game joy is flying through Mario without dying or thinking, no scope headshots, clickandloot 12 hour raids, screen passes on third down, collecting them all, super combos, maxing out, bloons, pwning, etc. etc.  and I just can't get it up anymore. I'll go ahead and tell you that I'm not so sure this is the case. Fake breasts don't do it for me. Neither do airbrushes.

All this to say that principles in video games are pretty much self-defeating and the banter of forumposts like this one. That I wish they still made video games like they used to. That I've decided to read books instead of attempting to find a game that could rival Xenogears. That I should probably stop...

Depth is overrated. Having depth is great, but you need great direction to back it up. Many stories have much better direction in the video game medium than Xenogears and Xenosaga. In fact, the very simple Shadow of Colossus has a very effective story.

While far from my favorite story, Planescape Torment may have the best written one.

[parfois]

txgoldrush wrote...

Depth is overrated. Having depth is great, but you need great direction to back it up. Many stories have much better direction in the video game medium than Xenogears and Xenosaga. In fact, the very simple Shadow of Colossus has a very effective story.

While far from my favorite story, Planescape Torment may have the best written one.

First: Xenosaga is awful, and shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as its predecessor (except oblique references like these, which are allowed!). Second: the ICO team is phenomenal and I wholeheartedly agree about its effectiveness. Third: what might your favorite story be?

I didn't mean to overemphasize what we are loosely calling "depth" as the de-facto quality for a good RPG. As has already been mentioned, FFVI & Chrono Trigger both execute their tales with a concision that calls into question the necessity of Nietzsche or Freud in the parsimonious medium of video games. Rightfully so- if direction implies a certain degree of entertainment then Mario's Übermenschity should probably be left unsaid and we, as players, better leave his tyrannical plumbing unchecked (nothing more is asked or left for us to question). We press A and then tap B more than necessary in order to skip past the parts that skill forbids us from completing: such secret portals have been set up for us to find and exploit. There is much joy to be had in such fluid coordination between hands and eyes, as if the machine were both at one with our minds and at their command.

By requiring little more than scrolling through text from its very hand-eye coordinated players for hours at a time, it seems clear to me that its aims are different from games that aim at direct effect. Especially when this type of pleasure, this basic instinct that enraptures players in a 'childlike perversity' whose worst expression takes the form of WoW guildmasters, the borderline unconscious clickcandkill action the player feels in combat, is an actual character that attempts to make the player aware of her own culpability in taking part. Psychomantis breaks into reality through his ability to read memory cards... Xenogears is much more subtle.

I do enjoy the sheer openendedness of RPGs like Elder Scrolls, of seemingly infinite depth, and Vagrant Story, a depth of delicate nuance. I wish I knew Japanese so I could experience these games in better language. As for me, you may be able to hear the welcoming bell of my playstation booting up right now...

Modifié par parfois, 10 mai 2010 - 11:15 .