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[Beholderess]

Polka14 wrote...

Beholderess wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

The race of my character may vary. I have two characters in ME2. A European character and a Latin American character. Both are different shepards with different personalities and character classes. Never played any other Bioware game though. I even vary my character's apperance in other games too.  Race is not a factor in how I view fictional characters.

Heh, my main male Shepard's etnicity is hard to determine. Looks like Latin American for the most part, but has blue almond-shaped eyes. What can I say? I like the look and don't care if it fits together)

My Joseph Shepard is a renegade so he has red eyes.   And he is an adept so Jacob is very useless as a squadmate with Joseph. I wish Jacob had Sigularity instead of Barrier. He would be better than Samara.

Indeed! I bet Jacob would be much more useful in fight (and thus more likely to be in the current squad=>more of his conversations triggered=>possible more insight into his character=>more interest in Jacob) if he had Singularity.

[Polka14]

Beholderess wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

Beholderess wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

The race of my character may vary. I have two characters in ME2. A European character and a Latin American character. Both are different shepards with different personalities and character classes. Never played any other Bioware game though. I even vary my character's apperance in other games too.  Race is not a factor in how I view fictional characters.

Heh, my main male Shepard's etnicity is hard to determine. Looks like Latin American for the most part, but has blue almond-shaped eyes. What can I say? I like the look and don't care if it fits together)

My Joseph Shepard is a renegade so he has red eyes.   And he is an adept so Jacob is very useless as a squadmate with Joseph. I wish Jacob had Sigularity instead of Barrier. He would be better than Samara.

Indeed! I bet Jacob would be much more useful in fight (and thus more likely to be in the current squad=>more of his conversations triggered=>possible more insight into his character=>more interest in Jacob) if he had Singularity.

Case closed.

[MajesticJazz]

Apollo Rising wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

Okay i just went back and played through the game and as a male Shepard it just doesn't make any sense at all to me why he isn't liked. It's definitely awkward talking to him as fem Shepard but I he's just a normal cool guy when you're a guy Shepard. Weird. This extreme dislike of Jacob makes even less sense to me now.

Dont you know that a black man has to be the ole grandfatherly type or act like a fool (ala Cole Train from Gears)to be popular with the majority of "mainstream gamers". A stable non-stereotypical black man doesn't stand a chance obviously. The whole "romance" thing and "he's boring" doesn't fly with me. What makes any other teamate more exciting? Garris has hardly any convo....Thane is emo as hell....both of these guys die rather quickly in combat. I have friends that also play Mass Effect(all of us black men, 1 italian) and I brought up the whole Jacob thing and none of them understood the hate,except for the obvious answer.

You are absolutely correct! For the most part, many of the gamers who call out Jacob as "boring" is doing it in part because he is a black guy who does not act like....."a black guy". In videogames, I've also noticed that the accepted black characters are those who play into the African-American stereotype. These are the ones that are loved and respected because if they don't, then they're "boring" or "dull" or "needs to be fleshed out more".

Am I saying that if you call Jacob boring that you are doing it because he isn't a black stereotype? No, there are many gamers who find Jacob boring not because he doesn't complete a stereotype, but because they really believe he is boring. But that does not dismiss the fac that there are ALSO people who call Jacob boring because he isn't "black enough".

Now I do believe race has a large part in this because BEFORE Mass Effect 2 came out, I can remember reading comments from people saying they hope Jacob is "the comic relief character" or is "badass like Samuel L. Jackson" and stuff to that nature. This extends beyond videogames. I'll use Denzel Washington for example. His whole career he has been known to play the role of the strong black male, educated, intelligent, and respectful. Yes he gained mainstream success, but he didn't win an Oscar for best Actor until he played the "Dirty Cop" and "badass guy". Talking to my white friends or just random white people, 99% of them would say that Training Day was Denzel's best movie and they like him in that movie and so on. Ask black people the same question, they'll say Glory, X, or any other movie to be Denzel's best.

I'm going to say this with my heart, if Jacob had more "stereotypical aspects" to him,  A LOT of you would not be calling Jacob boring.

[Nightwriter]

Nonsense. I thought Kaidan was boring too, and he wasn't black. If you're telling me there aren't ways to make a character interesting to "white people" without playing into his black stereotype I simply think you're wrong.

When are people just going to realize Jacob was simply an unremarkable character whose boringness transcended race, gender, and biological classification?

[MajesticJazz]

Nightwriter wrote...

Nonsense. I thought Kaidan was boring too, and he wasn't black. If you're telling me there aren't ways to make a character interesting to "white people" without playing into his black stereotype I simply think you're wrong.

When are people just going to realize Jacob was simply an unremarkable character whose boringness transcended race, gender, and biological classification?

You are comprehending what you want to and ignoring what you want to. I did not say that if you think Jacob is boring is because he isn't a black stereotype. I said that a REASON why people dislike Jacob is because he isn't a black stereotype. I did not say THE reason why, I said A reason why. I also said that not ALL whites dislike Jacob because he isn't a black stereotype, I said that THERE ARE and that there are A LOT, but I did not say ALL.

Nice try

[Nostradamoose]

Nah, They only find Jacob boring because he is the only non-psychotic character on the Normandy...

[Beholderess]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Apollo Rising wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

Okay i just went back and played through the game and as a male Shepard it just doesn't make any sense at all to me why he isn't liked. It's definitely awkward talking to him as fem Shepard but I he's just a normal cool guy when you're a guy Shepard. Weird. This extreme dislike of Jacob makes even less sense to me now.

Dont you know that a black man has to be the ole grandfatherly type or act like a fool (ala Cole Train from Gears)to be popular with the majority of "mainstream gamers". A stable non-stereotypical black man doesn't stand a chance obviously. The whole "romance" thing and "he's boring" doesn't fly with me. What makes any other teamate more exciting? Garris has hardly any convo....Thane is emo as hell....both of these guys die rather quickly in combat. I have friends that also play Mass Effect(all of us black men, 1 italian) and I brought up the whole Jacob thing and none of them understood the hate,except for the obvious answer.

You are absolutely correct! For the most part, many of the gamers who call out Jacob as "boring" is doing it in part because he is a black guy who does not act like....."a black guy". In videogames, I've also noticed that the accepted black characters are those who play into the African-American stereotype. These are the ones that are loved and respected because if they don't, then they're "boring" or "dull" or "needs to be fleshed out more".

Am I saying that if you call Jacob boring that you are doing it because he isn't a black stereotype? No, there are many gamers who find Jacob boring not because he doesn't complete a stereotype, but because they really believe he is boring. But that does not dismiss the fac that there are ALSO people who call Jacob boring because he isn't "black enough".

Now I do believe race has a large part in this because BEFORE Mass Effect 2 came out, I can remember reading comments from people saying they hope Jacob is "the comic relief character" or is "badass like Samuel L. Jackson" and stuff to that nature. This extends beyond videogames. I'll use Denzel Washington for example. His whole career he has been known to play the role of the strong black male, educated, intelligent, and respectful. Yes he gained mainstream success, but he didn't win an Oscar for best Actor until he played the "Dirty Cop" and "badass guy". Talking to my white friends or just random white people, 99% of them would say that Training Day was Denzel's best movie and they like him in that movie and so on. Ask black people the same question, they'll say Glory, X, or any other movie to be Denzel's best.

I'm going to say this with my heart, if Jacob had more "stereotypical aspects" to him,  A LOT of you would not be calling Jacob boring.

Heh, I would consider Jacob much less boring (and perhaps even awesome) if his Corsair past was fleshed out more. Is being Alliance Corsair a part of a racial stereotype?
It doesn't explain why so many people like Anderson, by the way. He is strong, educated, respectful, a decorated military man and the closest thing Shepard has for boss...

But I am going to agree that if Jacob had exagerrated stereotypical aspects, he might be considered by some people to be less boring. It would have added just something "catchy" to the character, something to make him stand out from the rest of the crew. Instead of plain cardboard, he would be a piece of cardboard with a familiar picture painted over. Now, the picture would be awful and tasteless, but still something other than cardboard.
Note: I am glad that Bioware did not do this, cos' it would definitely be a wrong way to make a character memorable.

[Beholderess]

Nostradamoose wrote...

Nah, They only find Jacob boring because he is the only non-psychotic character on the Normandy...

Agreed. He is not a bad character, and in most other games he would be quite popular. But compared to the rest of the Normandy...
I've heard that in some dialogue Shepard has an opportunity to say that being somewhat crazy is basically a requirement for this squad:whistle:

[Nostradamoose]

Jacob is the normal guy, all the others are litterally bat**** crazy...

[Beholderess]

Nostradamoose wrote...

Jacob is the normal guy, all the others are litterally bat**** crazy...

This is also truth. In RL I wouldn't want to be anywhere near most of the squad, except Jacob and Tali (she is sweet and stable if you are not geth=).
However, some people (myself included) have different expectations of fictional characters than of RL ones.

[Nostradamoose]

True, I doubt I'd get within 100 meters of any of the crewmembers...



I know this, because I don't ever talk to Jack...

[MajesticJazz]

Beholderess wrote...


But I am going to agree that if Jacob had exagerrated stereotypical aspects, he might be considered by some people to be less boring. It would have added just something "catchy" to the character, something to make him stand out from the rest of the crew. Instead of plain cardboard, he would be a piece of cardboard with a familiar picture painted over. Now, the picture would be awful and tasteless, but still something other than cardboard.
Note: I am glad that Bioware did not do this, cos' it would definitely be a wrong way to make a character memorable.

You are really correct about Bioware not going in that direction and that is why I like Bioware. Look at Jolee Bindu from KOTOR, he is a black guy but not "a old black guy". If anything, he is more of a "old guy" stereotype who likes to throw in the old days and all that stuff....but he isn't a black stereotype. Captain Anderson is another great example, but Anderson is different in some ways because to me, he is more of a mixed race with African being one of them along with European and so on. With Jacob, from the looks point of view, he clearly has dominant African features with no really indication of mixed in him. Unlike Anderson who has some European characteristics, Jacob doesnt and represents mainly African decent. Now I can get into the whole topic of "light skinned" blacks or blacks with "European details" getting more respect than darker skinned blacks and blacks with more "African details"....but I'm not going to go there right now as I don't see it being a big issue.

Again, to clarify, there are MANY people who dislike Jacob because he is just a boring character. Also like someone just mentioned, Jacob is the only one on the ship without some psychotic past. I mean look at this:

Miranda: Sexy female who has been genetically altered
Thane: Troubled Assasin
Garrus: Dark Vigilante (aka Batman)
Samara: Badass Asari who kills for moral purposes (plus she is a female alien)
Tali: She is a female alien with a mysterious identity. If she were human, I doubt she would be this popular.
Grunt: Lab created Krogan who is searching for an identity and for some people,is a throwback to Wrex.
Jack: Psychotic person with a troubled past...and a badass female
Zaeed: Merc and Co-Founder of Blue Suns...nuff said
Mordin: Dr. Kickass Salarian who is very intelligent but can still break your neck in a fight.
Kasumi: Japanese female thief. Not to be funny or offensive, but many male gamers gravitate towards the Japanese female type in videogames.
Legion: He is a Geth for crying out loud
Jacob:......well he is an ex Alliance who was on Eden Prime. He has good morals with no dark past, not female, not alien, not psychotic, not assasin, not merc, not lab created etc...just a normal human like all of us on this forum.

[Nostradamoose]

Sure, he hates his father and everything, but he's the only one that doesn't get whiny on you about everything. He just asks you to go see there if he's still alive.



He's balanced enough not to get completely psychotic after seeing what his dad did. So yea, everyday normal guy. I mean, he doesn't hate every batarians, he is not bigoted, he's just there... normal...



In real life he'd be almost the perfect buddy... In a video game, seems like people believe he's boring...

[Fat Headed Wolf]

I'm biracial and my wife is a different race than me, but I still dislike Jacob more than any of the other squadmates.



I think the fact he is black has nothing to do with it for most. In fact, I would be willing to bet that most people's experiences with Jacob went like this (as mine did):



Meet him at the station and he seems like the only person you can trust. Then, without having any reason to, he tells you he is working for Cerberus (yet another reason to start liking him). Then, after talking to T.I.M., he seems like he is a really nice dude who just wants you two to get along.



I bet after if ME2 had ended directly after Freedom's Progress, Jacob would have been one of the most popular characters. But, after you get the Normandy, most went to talk to him and....... Nothing.



Not even the slightest interesting thing (in my opinion, I should add. Don't want to be mistaken as a troll). He goes from an interesting character, and then instantly plateaus. While all other squaddies are getting more dynamic, he stays the same.

[Beholderess]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

I'm biracial and my wife is a different race than me, but I still dislike Jacob more than any of the other squadmates.

I think the fact he is black has nothing to do with it for most. In fact, I would be willing to bet that most people's experiences with Jacob went like this (as mine did):

Meet him at the station and he seems like the only person you can trust. Then, without having any reason to, he tells you he is working for Cerberus (yet another reason to start liking him). Then, after talking to T.I.M., he seems like he is a really nice dude who just wants you two to get along.

I bet after if ME2 had ended directly after Freedom's Progress, Jacob would have been one of the most popular characters. But, after you get the Normandy, most went to talk to him and....... Nothing.

Not even the slightest interesting thing (in my opinion, I should add. Don't want to be mistaken as a troll). He goes from an interesting character, and then instantly plateaus. While all other squaddies are getting more dynamic, he stays the same.

This!
Many people have stated that they liked him at the start of the game.

Hmm, would be nice if he had more confrontations with Miranda? He was likeable in constrast to her at the start, and these 2 could have worked quite well as an angel/devil on the shoulder...

[Beholderess]

MajesticJazz wrote...

 Look at Jolee Bindu from KOTOR, he is a black guy but not "a old black guy". If anything, he is more of a "old guy" stereotype who likes to throw in the old days and all that stuff....but he isn't a black stereotype.

Heh, mentioned it several times, but it's worth mentioning again - Jolee is pure awesome. By the way, while he is very entertaining in his "genre savvy cryptic old man" performance, I bet that if we'd met him in his younder years, he'd have quite a following too. A an adventurous jedi who thinks that is is perfectly possible to be passionate, know love and yet be moral (an unusual stance for SW force users)...Carth wouldn't have a shadow of chance=)

MajesticJazz wrote...
Again, to clarify, there are MANY people who dislike Jacob because he is just a boring character. Also like someone just mentioned, Jacob is the only one on the ship without some psychotic past. I mean look at this:

Miranda: Sexy female who has been genetically altered
Thane: Troubled Assasin
Garrus: Dark Vigilante (aka Batman)
Samara: Badass Asari who kills for moral purposes (plus she is a female alien)
Tali: She is a female alien with a mysterious identity. If she were human, I doubt she would be this popular.
Grunt: Lab created Krogan who is searching for an identity and for some people,is a throwback to Wrex.
Jack: Psychotic person with a troubled past...and a badass female
Zaeed: Merc and Co-Founder of Blue Suns...nuff said
Mordin: Dr. Kickass Salarian who is very intelligent but can still break your neck in a fight.
Kasumi: Japanese female thief. Not to be funny or offensive, but many male gamers gravitate towards the Japanese female type in videogames.
Legion: He is a Geth for crying out loud
Jacob:......well he is an ex Alliance who was on Eden Prime. He has good morals with no dark past, not female, not alien, not psychotic, not assasin, not merc, not lab created etc...just a normal human like all of us on this forum.

Yep, that's the main problem. Thing is, Jacob doesn't have something that would stand out. Oh, he has some characterisation, and he would be a good character - in some other game. But here, he looks like a sparrow against a flock of scarlet macaw.


Completely off-tangent, but the last line of your post can be interpreted to imply that female is not a normal human one can meet on this forum=)

[Aniki_21]

Beholderess wrote...

Nazomi wrote...

Beholderess wrote...

Nazomi wrote...


So you don't that the race of  "fictional" characters in video games plays any factor in the minds of gamers and developers for that matter? You think it's just a big coincidence that the vast majority of games with non optional lead characters are white? Is it "rediculous" to assert that this may be done deliberately because the main market is made up of white males?

Of cource that is not a coincidence. Protagonist is someone we are supposed to identify with (not just relate to, but "become" them), and in the vast majority of games protagonist either customisable...or, indeed, a white male. Usually young one, too.
However, it has nothing to do with a dislike for Jacob. And since when he is a lead character anyway? He's a sidekick.


There were numerous examples of people geniunely liking other dark-skinned characters in this thread. However, those bent on seeing racism immediately invented explanation after explanation as to why characters like Anderson or Jolee cannot be used as an example, in order to not let it interfere with their neat theory.

(sigh) It appears that if you dislike 1, just 1 black man for whatever reason, it is your hidden racism manifesting. Right?

The point is which you seem to agree on is that race can and is indeed often a factor so it seems a little disingenuous  to dismiss it as "ridiculous" to contemplate if Jacob's ethnicity may be a contributing factor as to why people have a harder time relating to him and are therefore dismissive and in a lot of cases actively dislike him.

Of cource race can be a factor. But it doesn't have to be. And even in the rare instances where it is a factor, it is not the only one.
And numerous people had stated their reasons for disliking (or not caring about) Jacob, and those reasons are both complelling (subjective, sure. After all, there seem to be a lot of people who like Jacob. But it's not like the issues with this character are non-existent) and consistent.
So why do some people keep looking for the hidden motives?
I am pretty sure that if Jacob was a white guy (not suave white guy as per OP, cos' suave is a personality trait that has nothing to do with a skin color) he might have been received a little better - and would still remain at the bottom of the "favourite squadmate" polls. And if he was written better, he would be much more popular - despite whatever minor setback his skin colour might have given him.

Oh, and I repeat the question again - am I allowed to show no interest in one black guy and not be considered racist? Or the only way to be considered prejudice-free is to love each and every character?

How can you say that race is a factor in only rare instances when it's a factor in like 99% of games that are made?  Oh and who suggested race was the only reason? I must have missed that post. Personally I think Jacob would have been much better recieved by some people if he was a handsome white guy but that's just my opinion. 

To answer your question no you are not allowed to show no interest in a black character because that's totally the point Jacob supporters have been trying to make. <_<

[MajesticJazz]

Some People dislike Jacob because:



- Hes black

- He doesn't fit a standard black stereotype

- He is boring

- He is a bad romance option

- He is weak/useless in combat



My point is that there are MANY reasons why many would dislike Jacob. There is no one reason for all. For some it can be one of those reasons I mentioned, it can be a combination, it can be all of them, or it can be none and something different.



So when I say that race can be a factor, I'm not saying that for EVERYONE who dislikes Jacob, it is because of his race. No, I'm just saying that it is one possibility, just like him being weak in combat is one, and a bad romance is another. For you, race might not be the reason why you dislike Jacob, but you are not everyone and there are some people (They wont admit it of course, who will?) who dislikes Jacob because he is black or he isnt a black stereotype.



I'm just throwing out a possibility. I'm not saying it IS the reason, I'm just saying it is ONE of the reasons for some.



People throw in the "Well I disliked Kaiden because he was boring....and hes white" aspect. That is true, but compare Kaiden's popularity before ME1's launch to Jacob's popularity before ME2's launch, and you'll find that Kaiden had a larger following, popularity, and respect compared to Jacob's. And they both recieved around the same amount of marketing, hell, Jacob even had an IPhone game.



Kinda makes you think....

[Darkhour]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Some People dislike Jacob because:

- Hes black
- He doesn't fit a standard black stereotype
- He is boring
- He is a bad romance option
- He is weak/useless in combat

My point is that there are MANY reasons why many would dislike Jacob. There is no one reason for all. For some it can be one of those reasons I mentioned, it can be a combination, it can be all of them, or it can be none and something different.

So when I say that race can be a factor, I'm not saying that for EVERYONE who dislikes Jacob, it is because of his race. No, I'm just saying that it is one possibility, just like him being weak in combat is one, and a bad romance is another. For you, race might not be the reason why you dislike Jacob, but you are not everyone and there are some people (They wont admit it of course, who will?) who dislikes Jacob because he is black or he isnt a black stereotype.

I'm just throwing out a possibility. I'm not saying it IS the reason, I'm just saying it is ONE of the reasons for some.

People throw in the "Well I disliked Kaiden because he was boring....and hes white" aspect. That is true, but compare Kaiden's popularity before ME1's launch to Jacob's popularity before ME2's launch, and you'll find that Kaiden had a larger following, popularity, and respect compared to Jacob's. And they both recieved around the same amount of marketing, hell, Jacob even had an IPhone game.

Kinda makes you think....

Don't kid yourself. They don't like their white women femshep being forced to flirt with a ********. All white people are racist. Every last one of them. No exceptions. And Bioware, a bunch of white guys, are the biggests racist of all. Why do you think Bioware had this nice theme about a cerberus agent who doesn't like cerberus and don't expound on any of it to develop Jacob's character? Why do you think Jacob has crap skills? And then when he completed his loyalty quest (about a father who walks out on him and serial rapes women on a "tropical island" for 10 years) he gets another useless skill that doesn't help him at all. A lot of good barrier does if you're always chraging head first into 5 enemies.

[Nostradamoose]

Of course, we are all evil racists... We evil white people...

Actually wait... are you racist against white people DarkHour?

Modifié par Nostradamoose, 27 avril 2010 - 12:16 .

[PTPR]

Man, I am so racist. I can relate to a robot better than a black guy apparently.

[Aniki_21]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Some People dislike Jacob because:

- Hes black
- He doesn't fit a standard black stereotype
- He is boring
- He is a bad romance option
- He is weak/useless in combat

My point is that there are MANY reasons why many would dislike Jacob. There is no one reason for all. For some it can be one of those reasons I mentioned, it can be a combination, it can be all of them, or it can be none and something different.

So when I say that race can be a factor, I'm not saying that for EVERYONE who dislikes Jacob, it is because of his race. No, I'm just saying that it is one possibility, just like him being weak in combat is one, and a bad romance is another. For you, race might not be the reason why you dislike Jacob, but you are not everyone and there are some people (They wont admit it of course, who will?) who dislikes Jacob because he is black or he isnt a black stereotype.

I'm just throwing out a possibility. I'm not saying it IS the reason, I'm just saying it is ONE of the reasons for some.

People throw in the "Well I disliked Kaiden because he was boring....and hes white" aspect. That is true, but compare Kaiden's popularity before ME1's launch to Jacob's popularity before ME2's launch, and you'll find that Kaiden had a larger following, popularity, and respect compared to Jacob's. And they both recieved around the same amount of marketing, hell, Jacob even had an IPhone game.

Kinda makes you think....

Agreed. You make some great points. Most people who continute to scoff at the suggestion keep ignoring the fact that Jacob wasn't particularly liked before the game ever came out.

[Jackal904]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Some People dislike Jacob because:

- Hes black
- He doesn't fit a standard black stereotype

That is so untrue and it's idiotic to think that. You probably one of those people who say any negativity towards a black person is because of racism.

Jacob's lack of popularity has absolutely nothing to do with his race. If you cannot see the true reason why he is unpopular, then you are one dense mother ****er.

Beholderess wrote...

I've heard that in some
dialogue Shepard has an opportunity to say that being somewhat crazy is
basically a requirement for this squad[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Yeah that's from one of Jack's romance related conversations. He says that being crazy is pretty much stamped on the boarding pass for this mission .

[Collider]

21st century...those illusive neanderthals that don't like Jacob for his skin color are so insignificant they are not worth mentioning.

[Xanfaus]

MajesticJazz wrote...

- He doesn't fit a standard black stereotype

Yeah its not like he and his mother were abandoned by his crappy father or anything...

- He is a bad romance option
- He is weak/useless in combat

I went into the game almost completely blind. The only thing I knew ahead of time was that the Normandy gets destroyed. I disliked Jacob because the romance conversations got extremely creepy very quickly, similar to that gigantic Tali thread here. And unlike Miranda who is at least useful in combat, Jacob could not be made any more useless even if Bioware took away all his weapons. Jacob really needed something to catch people's attention and other than "THE PRIZE," he really does not seem to possess any noteworthy traits. 

Creepiness aside though, his voice actor was pretty good...