1527 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Nazomi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...


^ You don't need to have stereotypes to make interesting characters.  Jacob had potential to be interesting, he just wasn't written well, and thus why people don't like him very much.

Stereotypes in that picture alone:

Extreme masculine black, with bulging veins emphasizing strength and viritility. (Actually one of the more racist trends in the porn industry: the black guy almost always tops).

The fill-it-in primitive animal insignia and copper emblems: a draw back to primitive African cultures and technology, but also emphasizing strength and cunning.

Hooded robe and staff with animal-imagery  weapon(bird-eye scyth head): scythes aren't a modern civilized weapon, but as a staff emblem it combines to call forth a mystical shaminism tradition, accented by the previous copper animal emblems of a primitive but magical and wise/insightful individual. The wise savage, who despite being so far removed from the modern world and technology is insightful and knows thing no modern person would and is capable of the mystical and supernatural.

Also called the Magic ****** character. The way his hood shadows his face also implies he is a silent, withdrawn character, letting his imposing figure keep idle chatter away, but also suggesting that everything he does say is backed by weighted considerations and heavy insights.

White clothes on a black man: a whole lot there that should be obvious.

Huh?

Listing the number of stereotypes that can be derived from the character picture. By all means, feel free to tell me how wrong it is.

[bthillman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

bthillman wrote...


^ You don't need to have stereotypes to make interesting characters.  Jacob had potential to be interesting, he just wasn't written well, and thus why people don't like him very much.

Stereotypes in that picture alone:

Extreme masculine black, with bulging veins emphasizing strength and viritility. (Actually one of the more racist trends in the porn industry: the black guy almost always tops).

It is a fighting game.  90% of the male characters look like that, no matter what their ethnicity.

The fill-it-in primitive animal insignia and copper emblems: a draw back to primitive African cultures and technology, but also emphasizing strength and cunning.

Hooded robe and staff with animal-imagery  weapon(bird-eye scyth head): scythes aren't a modern civilized weapon, but as a staff emblem it combines to call forth a mystical shaminism tradition, accented by the previous copper animal emblems of a primitive but magical and wise/insightful individual. The wise savage, who despite being so far removed from the modern world and technology is insightful and knows thing no modern person would and is capable of the mystical and supernatural.

I don't see how this is stereotypical-- hear me out first.  Yes, he does come from an ancient tribe (Although it is theorized he is babylonian.), however, if you were writing a backstory for a dwarf, wouldn't it make sense that he would have orignally lived in an underdark/Moria/Orzamar type of place?  This is not stereotyping, it is remaining true to culture/lore.  If you happened upon a samurai who wore a hakama, would that be so strange?

Also called the Magic ****** character. The way his hood shadows his face also implies he is a silent, withdrawn character, letting his imposing figure keep idle chatter away, but also suggesting that everything he does say is backed by weighted considerations and heavy insights.

Here is where you lose me.  The magic ****** character?  I haven't the slightest idea what is meant be that.  Also, a hood is often a subconscious trick used by the character designer/artist to convey distinct personality traits.  I don't see how this has anything to do with stereotypes/backgrounds. 

Given the nature of this thread, some may have even gone looking for ways to point out things that are overlooked while enjoying the game.   

White clothes on a black man: a whole lot there that should be obvious.

Perhaps it is to you, but I don't see it. 

Modifié par bthillman, 12 mai 2010 - 07:14 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Madi wrote...

The big elephant in the room here that no one wants to talk about is the fact that Jacob is black. Now before you start getting ultra defensive and start accusing me of reverse racism I’d like to point out that I’m biracial and have no racial biases of any kind.  Secondly I’m not saying the reason that Jacob  is such a  massively unpopular is because the people who don’t like Jacob are inherently racist. However that doesn’t mean that the fact that Jacob is black isn’t a factor. In fact I would say it’s a significant factor.

I think it’s probably largely subconscious. Jacob is a relatively basic character with nothing incredibly interesting about him although still a much more solid, well rounded character than you’ll find in most games. The issue is I think that most white gamers just find it difficult to relate to black characters. I think that’s one of the main reasons why black characters are so rare in video games and actual black protagonists are nearly nonexistent in video games.Especially non- stereotypical characters (i.e. C.J. from GTA)  Can you honestly tell me that if Jacob was a suave white guy he’d be this unpopular? Just look at Kaden who Jacob is commonly compared to.  Most people seem to agree that he isn’t much more if at all more interesting a character than Jacob yet he’s still infinitely more popular than Jacob. Once again that doesn’t mean that you’re a racist but I just think it clearly shows that race plays a factor in a lot of things, whether subconscious or otherwise. Although I think the fact that he bears a strong resemblance to Kanye West didn’t really help either. I don’t really get why his look was changed so dramatically from Mass Effect Galaxy. It’s like he’s a completely different person.

http://masseffect.bi.../market/galaxy/

Let me guess..........you're in hs/college and just had a psychology class

[Dean_the_Young]

bthillman wrote...
It is a fighting game.  90% of the male characters look like that, no matter what their ethnicity.

In other words, I was exactly on the money.

If 90% of characters look like something, that is what we tend to consider a stereotype. Our friend there also has the other stereotypes of the overly muscular black man strength going on for him.

The fill-it-in primitive animal insignia and copper emblems: a draw back to primitive African cultures and technology, but also emphasizing strength and cunning.

Hooded robe and staff with animal-imagery  weapon(bird-eye scyth head): scythes aren't a modern civilized weapon, but as a staff emblem it combines to call forth a mystical shaminism tradition, accented by the previous copper animal emblems of a primitive but magical and wise/insightful individual. The wise savage, who despite being so far removed from the modern world and technology is insightful and knows thing no modern person would and is capable of the mystical and supernatural.

I don't see how this is stereotypical-- hear me out first.  Yes, he does come from an ancient tribe (Although it is theorized he is babylonian.), however, if you were writing a backstory for a dwarf, wouldn't it make sense that he would have orignally lived in an underdark/Moria/Orzamar type of place?  This is not stereotyping, it is remaining true to culture/lore.  If you happened upon a samurai who wore a hakama, would that be so strange?

In battle? It would be amazing to see one do so. Out of battle? Perhaps not surprising, but a stereotype is something you expect, regardless of how justified it may/may not be. Concluding that lazy people are fat is a stereotype, but you'll find plenty of fat people who are fat because they're too lazy to exercise.

'Dwarves live in mountains. Elves live in woods. Humans are the numerous war-mongering (but not Orc) race of technological growth.' These are stereotypes of fantasy. Writing about a dwarf who comes from the mines of Mount Wherever and loves gold and weilds a battleaxe is most certainly a stereotypical dwarf.

Also called the Magic ****** character. The way his hood shadows his face also implies he is a silent, withdrawn character, letting his imposing figure keep idle chatter away, but also suggesting that everything he does say is backed by weighted considerations and heavy insights.

Here is where you lose me.  The magic ****** character?  I haven't the slightest idea what is meant be that.  Also, a hood is often a subconscious trick used by the character designer/artist to convey distinct personality traits.  I don't see how this has anything to do with stereotypes/backgrounds.

The term 'magic ******' is a dispariging term for a literary cliche in which the civilized white characters have to go find the primitive but wise (sometimes literally magical) black man who can reveal to them great knowledge or supernatural ability, with which they return and conquer the troubles of the white world. Sometimes the black man is literally magical: God in Bruce Almighty. Sometimes he's just exceptionally wise, but his words are always invaluable wisdom. (Morpheus from the Matrix was another one.)

The ability for artistically-designed clothing (like hoods) to convey personaltiy is based on stereotypes. In the real world, wearing a hood doesn't make you a badass or capable or intimidating. The impression that it does is a stereotype.



White is a color of purity, sincerity, purpose, and also implies great effort towards that goal (consider how hard it is to keep something white). A black and white color scheme, however, is the harshest contrasting of color available: good and evil, life and death. Neither is false, but rather both are true. He is a devoted man with higher purpose, perhaps beyond normal comprehension, but he is dangerous at the same time.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 mai 2010 - 09:01 .

[TMZuk]

Madi wrote...

The big elephant in the room here that no one wants to talk about is the fact that Jacob is black. Now before you start getting ultra defensive and start accusing me of reverse racism I’d like to point out that I’m biracial and have no racial biases of any kind.  Secondly I’m not saying the reason that Jacob  is such a  massively unpopular is because the people who don’t like Jacob are inherently racist. However that doesn’t mean that the fact that Jacob is black isn’t a factor. In fact I would say it’s a significant factor.

While interesting, I must disagree.

I've played through both ME1 and ME2 as male and female, and in general I find Femshep's romantic options in both games lacking hugely, compared to Maleshep's. Ashley is a vastly more interesting character than Kaiden, and Jack, Miranda and Tali are ALL far more interesting than the green, amphibian emo-kid, and the utterly dull and boring Jacob. Garrut is cool. I like Garrut a lot, but his looks are rather to alien that I could consider him a romantic option for my Femshep.

As a black romantic option for my Femshep, I could imagine a Blade (Wesley Snipes) kind of character, a Denzel Washington as he played in Training Day or a Laurence Fishburne as he played in Matrix. Just to mention a few.

Kaiden isn't as boring as Jacob. Even if he plays it overly safe, he still have a more interesting background than Jacob, and also some more interesting remarks and points of view. Jacob is so...... dull. Predictable. That has nothing to do with his skincolour, but with his drab and humourless demeanour.

Bioware did a fair job in Dragon Age creating interesting males. Alister was rather feeble in the beginning, but he grew, and he had a wicked wit. Zevran was a riot. So, dear Bioware, please put some more effort into making Femshep as fun to play as Maleshep, since you have proven you can, thank you very much.

Modifié par TMZuk, 12 mai 2010 - 11:57 .

[Madi]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Madi wrote...

The big elephant in the room here that no one wants to talk about is the fact that Jacob is black. Now before you start getting ultra defensive and start accusing me of reverse racism I’d like to point out that I’m biracial and have no racial biases of any kind.  Secondly I’m not saying the reason that Jacob  is such a  massively unpopular is because the people who don’t like Jacob are inherently racist. However that doesn’t mean that the fact that Jacob is black isn’t a factor. In fact I would say it’s a significant factor.

I think it’s probably largely subconscious. Jacob is a relatively basic character with nothing incredibly interesting about him although still a much more solid, well rounded character than you’ll find in most games. The issue is I think that most white gamers just find it difficult to relate to black characters. I think that’s one of the main reasons why black characters are so rare in video games and actual black protagonists are nearly nonexistent in video games.Especially non- stereotypical characters (i.e. C.J. from GTA)  Can you honestly tell me that if Jacob was a suave white guy he’d be this unpopular? Just look at Kaden who Jacob is commonly compared to.  Most people seem to agree that he isn’t much more if at all more interesting a character than Jacob yet he’s still infinitely more popular than Jacob. Once again that doesn’t mean that you’re a racist but I just think it clearly shows that race plays a factor in a lot of things, whether subconscious or otherwise. Although I think the fact that he bears a strong resemblance to Kanye West didn’t really help either. I don’t really get why his look was changed so dramatically from Mass Effect Galaxy. It’s like he’s a completely different person.

http://masseffect.bi.../market/galaxy/

Let me guess..........you're in hs/college and just had a psychology class

Yeah you sure got me there. <_<

[Cloaking_Thane]

Madi wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Madi wrote...

The big elephant in the room here that no one wants to talk about is the fact that Jacob is black. Now before you start getting ultra defensive and start accusing me of reverse racism I’d like to point out that I’m biracial and have no racial biases of any kind.  Secondly I’m not saying the reason that Jacob  is such a  massively unpopular is because the people who don’t like Jacob are inherently racist. However that doesn’t mean that the fact that Jacob is black isn’t a factor. In fact I would say it’s a significant factor.

I think it’s probably largely subconscious. Jacob is a relatively basic character with nothing incredibly interesting about him although still a much more solid, well rounded character than you’ll find in most games. The issue is I think that most white gamers just find it difficult to relate to black characters. I think that’s one of the main reasons why black characters are so rare in video games and actual black protagonists are nearly nonexistent in video games.Especially non- stereotypical characters (i.e. C.J. from GTA)  Can you honestly tell me that if Jacob was a suave white guy he’d be this unpopular? Just look at Kaden who Jacob is commonly compared to.  Most people seem to agree that he isn’t much more if at all more interesting a character than Jacob yet he’s still infinitely more popular than Jacob. Once again that doesn’t mean that you’re a racist but I just think it clearly shows that race plays a factor in a lot of things, whether subconscious or otherwise. Although I think the fact that he bears a strong resemblance to Kanye West didn’t really help either. I don’t really get why his look was changed so dramatically from Mass Effect Galaxy. It’s like he’s a completely different person.

http://masseffect.bi.../market/galaxy/

Let me guess..........you're in hs/college and just had a psychology class

Yeah you sure got me there. <_<

The fact that 90%+ of this thread disagrees w/ you "got you" champ

[Dean_the_Young]

Few people would admit to any sort of racism, conscious or otherwise. Subconscious racially-driven feelings are the sort of thing most people wouldn't even be aware of, so couldn't admit to even if it were true.



There certainly is a good deal of racially-tinged humor about Jacob: the Pimp hat photos, the numerous screen caps emphasizing his jaw and teeth that would be more or less gone in a flash during videos. Neither of these have been done for other characters, even though Jacob isn't alone with his face modeling problems. (Miranda stands out to me moreso.)

[Cloaking_Thane]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Few people would admit to any sort of racism, conscious or otherwise. Subconscious racially-driven feelings are the sort of thing most people wouldn't even be aware of, so couldn't admit to even if it were true.

There certainly is a good deal of racially-tinged humor about Jacob: the Pimp hat photos, the numerous screen caps emphasizing his jaw and teeth that would be more or less gone in a flash during videos. Neither of these have been done for other characters, even though Jacob isn't alone with his face modeling problems. (Miranda stands out to me moreso.)

Grasping mate

[Dean_the_Young]

And your reasoning for Jacob having the monopoly on buck teeth and pimps hats is that he's just a swell guy?


That most people would deny any racial implications does not mean that they do not exist. Even babes react to people of different races.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 mai 2010 - 01:48 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And your reasoning for Jacob having the monopoly on buck teeth and pimps hats is that he's just a swell guy?

No you cant control forum members really, and you cant ban them for hats.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why on earth would I ban them for racial humor? Letting your jokes and opinions be informed by race is not a crime.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 mai 2010 - 01:51 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why on earth would I ban them for racial humor? Letting your jokes and opinions be informed by race is not a crime.

You've missed the point. You're over analysing, there is a large sense of resentment from you as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why on earth would I ban them for racial humor? Letting your jokes and opinions be informed by race is not a crime.

You've missed the point. You're over analysing, there is a large sense of resentment from you as well.

What resentment? People do have unconscious racial biases that shape opinions: this is a well-studied fact. It is not necessarily malign. People do make racially-tinged jokes about Jacob that they don't make for any other character. That, to, is a fact. Both of these are apparent from casual examination alone. How is that overanalyzing? 

[Cloaking_Thane]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why on earth would I ban them for racial humor? Letting your jokes and opinions be informed by race is not a crime.

You've missed the point. You're over analysing, there is a large sense of resentment from you as well.

What resentment? People do have unconscious racial biases that shape opinions: this is a well-studied fact. It is not necessarily malign. People do make racially-tinged jokes about Jacob that they don't make for any other character. That, to, is a fact. Both of these are apparent from casual examination alone. How is that overanalyzing? 

Yes but thats the broadest brush stroke you could possibly have, every single thing we do and interaction we have shapes opinion...........this isnt some new news or mindblowing revelation.

As I said before it sounds like OP just got out of Psych 101 and decided to post about it.

examining some of your previous posts you like to see latent racism in everything, which simply isnt the case.

[Dean_the_Young]

Again, I'll pose the question for you to answer instead of run away from. Why do people far more often make jokes with historically racial tonnes than to any other character in the game? Why is Jacob the character who's regularly put in pimp hat, or who has his jawing emphasized?



'In my previous posts'... what are you talking about? I barely consider the matter of race, and I certainly don't talk about it here. I don't consider this racism either. Racism is seeing others that are different as inferior. This is just stereotypes at work. Lazy humor, yes, but not vicious or something needing to be punished (except on the basis of being lazy and far too repeated.)



If you're refering to the xeno-nationalism of the Mass Effect Universe, that's a literary element of the story.

[bthillman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why on earth would I ban them for racial humor? Letting your jokes and opinions be informed by race is not a crime.

You've missed the point. You're over analysing, there is a large sense of resentment from you as well.

What resentment? People do have unconscious racial biases that shape opinions: this is a well-studied fact. It is not necessarily malign. People do make racially-tinged jokes about Jacob that they don't make for any other character. That, to, is a fact. Both of these are apparent from casual examination alone. How is that overanalyzing? 

Actually, if you have noticed, all the humor with Jacob ("the priiize", "Jacob-Luc-Picard", captain hats, etc.) have actually increased his fanbase.  Before all that, with all the terrible things I had heard about the romance, I swore to never romance him.  Then all of that humor broke out, so I decided to check it out myself, and now I kind of like Jacob.  He isn't my favorite character, but he isn't the worst either.  To revisit my original point, he was just not well written.  Having said that, I believe all the humor directed towards him are more people's attempts to make him more interesting than some kind of subconscious racism.

[Dean_the_Young]

I never said the humor was detrimental to him. Where did you get that impression?

[Cloaking_Thane]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Again, I'll pose the question for you to answer instead of run away from. Why do people far more often make jokes with historically racial tonnes than to any other character in the game? Why is Jacob the character who's regularly put in pimp hat, or who has his jawing emphasized?

'In my previous posts'... what are you talking about? I barely consider the matter of race, and I certainly don't talk about it here. I don't consider this racism either. Racism is seeing others that are different as inferior. This is just stereotypes at work. Lazy humor, yes, but not vicious or something needing to be punished (except on the basis of being lazy and far too repeated.)

If you're refering to the xeno-nationalism of the Mass Effect Universe, that's a literary element of the story.

Personally I think its the fact he looks exactly like Kanye West who regularly wears Fedoras and the like

[Dean_the_Young]

That would be stereotype humor. Alot of what Kanye does is play racial stereotypes.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 mai 2010 - 02:32 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That would be stereotype humor. Alot of what Kanye does is play racial stereotypes.

Kanye doesnt "play" them.

Regardless, I've seen people post multiple things about Miranda, Samara, Kasumi et al for various reasons.

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 13 mai 2010 - 02:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That would be stereotype humor. Alot of what Kanye does is play racial stereotypes.

Kanye doesnt "play" them.

Yes, he does. Celeberities are public entertainers, and work with a host of PR agents and choreographers to get they image they want out. Celebrities reflect and and emphasize stereotypes of race and culture by the nature of their very profession.

Regardless, I've seen people post multiple things about Miranda, Samara, Kasumi et al for various reasons.

Hardly as much, and rarely of the same type of jokes. (Some that is continues in the vein of racial/cultural stereotypes: I remember an image of Miranda's own jaw movement, helpfully subtitled with the 'Brits have bad teeth' stereotype).

[Cloaking_Thane]

lol if you think Kanye isn't the same person as his public "persona" he's made tonnnnssss of quotes etc etc to verify his positions on many topics............he doesnt say all of them for PR etc......youre being naive



Edit: I'm done discussing this w/ you as neither of us have anything to add to what we've stated.

You seem like a good person.

Good luck in all your future endeavors

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 13 mai 2010 - 02:52 .

[Aniki_21]

bthillman wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why on earth would I ban them for racial humor? Letting your jokes and opinions be informed by race is not a crime.

You've missed the point. You're over analysing, there is a large sense of resentment from you as well.

What resentment? People do have unconscious racial biases that shape opinions: this is a well-studied fact. It is not necessarily malign. People do make racially-tinged jokes about Jacob that they don't make for any other character. That, to, is a fact. Both of these are apparent from casual examination alone. How is that overanalyzing? 

Actually, if you have noticed, all the humor with Jacob ("the priiize", "Jacob-Luc-Picard", captain hats, etc.) have actually increased his fanbase.  Before all that, with all the terrible things I had heard about the romance, I swore to never romance him.  Then all of that humor broke out, so I decided to check it out myself, and now I kind of like Jacob.  He isn't my favorite character, but he isn't the worst either.  To revisit my original point, he was just not well written.  Having said that, I believe all the humor directed towards him are more people's attempts to make him more interesting than some kind of subconscious racism.

Well actually most of the Jacob jokes such as "the priiize" comments are done to mock him.

[jmood88]

mosor wrote...

I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but in ME1 I would have loved to be able to romance Tali. However the talimancers here turned me off to her. I just stick with either Ash, Miranda or Jack.

I've started to hate Tali just from the weird/creepy ass people on this board who are obsessed with her. All of the "love" threads are pretty sad but the Tali one's are by far the saddest.