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[Lucky Thirteen]

Collider wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Collider wrote...

Most players are male.
And Kaidan and Jacob are both human and the male leads. Humans are
typically competitive and aggressive at times, more so with males. The
fact that I don't believe they are actually whining is why I suspect the
irrationality of needless rivalry - or emotion, to play a factor.
Apparently sharing your past is likened to whining.

So why wouldn't that apply to Thane or Garrus?

Different species?

yes. We don't have societies with other animals, we only have societies with other humans. And much of human history, there has been war and aggression, hate and segregation. Even though we often erroneously treat other animals like trash, we've never had anything like the hatred we've had for members of our own species. We are much like other animals, we have alphas in our society and often the position for alpha is contested.

It sounds like, primitive mating territory issues. Since the other species won't be able to reproduce with human females, there are no concerns about enemy seed being spread and their genetics being passed on.

Slidell505 wrote...

ROFL

Modifié par Lucky Thirteen, 13 avril 2010 - 07:20 .

[Nightwriter]

Marta Rio wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
And what do you mean about male rivalry? What does that have to do with anything?

I just don't get how people can go up to these characters and ASK them about their lives and then call it whining when the characters answer their questions!

If you don't want to hear anything, don't pry like a nosy nose.

Kaiden does a lot of whining that has nothing to do with you asking him questions.  Taking him out on missions results in a lot of complaining commentary about the heat, the cold, whatever.  And if you're playing as a renegade, he likes to whine about your decisions (killing the rachni, for example). 

Give me some examples of things he said that sounds like whining to you.

To me, it didn't sound like whining. He even says to me "I don't want to sound like a whiner".

So what does he say that irritates you?

[Collider]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...
It sounds like, primitive mating territory issues.

Humans are still very much influenced by base primitive instincts, we just put an enormous amount of layers to it due to our intelligence and capacity and use of culture.

Since the other species won't be able to reproduce with human females, there are no concerns about enemy seed being spread and their genetics being passed on.

Yes, this is a really good point actually and may be what I'm really saying. With aliens, you don't need to compete over females, nor are they part of your culture (aliens are not part of human culture). Good point.

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...
To me, it didn't sound like whining. He even says to me "I don't want to sound like a whiner".

He's clearly whining about being seen as a whiner

[Renessa]

Nightwriter wrote...

Collider wrote...

why people have this preoccupation for accusing characters of whining I'll never understand

I suspect the idea that Kaidan and Jacob are whiners may be due in part to male rivalry.

About another post, Jacob did not have to cry, whine, or even be sad about his father in order for him to talk about it. He could basically just say the he thought the whole thing was despicable, and then maybe relate the whole thing to another experience he had as a corsair, maybe he saw something of similar cruelty. He can comment on for how beautiful the planet they landed on, what they encountered in terms of people was pretty ugly. On that same current, he can recount an experience going to different planets, each with their environment and people. I tend to think that a character recounting experience and history, friends, family, as well as their thoughts on it, fleshes them out and makes them more believable and many cases makes you more attached.

Wow. Actually, this would've been amazing and I wish they'd done it. It wouldn't have been "whining" at all and it would've achieved the same affect of you feeling like you were getting to know his character.

And what do you mean about male rivalry? What does that have to do with anything?

I just don't get how people can go up to these characters and ASK them about their lives and then call it whining when the characters answer their questions!

If you don't want to hear anything, don't pry like a nosy nose.

I don't know, but when I was reading this thread, I suddenly had this idea, that Jacob's stand-offish character, his reluctance to "be friendes" etc might be a direct reaction to Kaidan's supposed "whining". (I never got that. Why is he whining? If you ask him, he tells you about his rather horrid childhood in a very matter of fact sort of way). So, Kaidan was not "manly" enough for a lot of (probably male) players and Bioware  tried ot go in the opposite direction with Jacob, also with little success. Perhaps there really is an issue with male rivalry?

Kaidan's char was saved by the way, they handled the romance. It was quite cute and well written. Jacob's was awful, so he did not gain any fans in the FemShep camp either... Sad, because I think, somewhere there is a really interesting character waiting to emerge. Perhaps in ME 3?

[Collider]

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

I can’t tell you how much I love Jacob Taylor, hell I'm the leader of his support group for god sakes. I'll just keep it short, sure he isn't as 'colorful' as most of your other squad members, he doesn't have a dead love interest, nor is he a super bad ass alien, but that's a good thing, you need at least somebody you can relate too, you know hang with and talk about how navigating through Quarian politics is a **** or how you had to stop Thane's son from killing somebody. Jacob is the guy you invite to watch the game, talk about chicks, hit the bars, why would anybody hate that kind of guy? He's my best friend and for good reason, I just wished more people would give the guy a chance instead of labeling him as 'boring' and never talking to him.

I agree that people are not cutting him enough slack. I play as Male Shepard and he was pretty cool as a bro. A paragon only really has him to talk to and relate to in the beginning of the game, partly because Jacob isn't so sure about Cerberus as well. I do think though, they could have done better making him more unique and having more character quirsk to him. That doesn't mean he has to crazy or anything, but stuff like telling Shepard about his corsair days would have made him more interesting to talk to.

[Nightwriter]

Renessa wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I just don't get how people can go up to these characters and ASK them about their lives and then call it whining when the characters answer their questions!

If you don't want to hear anything, don't pry like a nosy nose.

I don't know, but when I was reading this thread, I suddenly had this idea, that Jacob's stand-offish character, his reluctance to "be friendes" etc might be a direct reaction to Kaidan's supposed "whining". (I never got that. Why is he whining? If you ask him, he tells you about his rather horrid childhood in a very matter of fact sort of way). So, Kaidan was not "manly" enough for a lot of (probably male) players and Bioware  tried ot go in the opposite direction with Jacob, also with little success. Perhaps there really is an issue with male rivalry?

Kaidan's char was saved by the way, they handled the romance. It was quite cute and well written. Jacob's was awful, so he did not gain any fans in the FemShep camp either... Sad, because I think, somewhere there is a really interesting character waiting to emerge. Perhaps in ME 3?

Feh. In that case they listened to the wrong freaking people and went in the wrong freaking direction.

Erm... that is just my personal opinion, anyway.

I don't get it with the Kaidan whining either. Kaidan had his past dealt with, he'd put it all behind him and he was the most together guy I knew in that game. He was just answering your questions.

Even when you prod him and ask him if he has issues about certain parts of his past he'll say, "No. I dealt with that and put that behind me. No complaints."

I think Kaidan was just communicative on request and they're just saying this is the same thing as whining.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I didn't think Jacob was whining. Ever. Kaiden was a whiner. Then again, it might be because he sounds like Carth Onasi who was most defiantly a whiner.

[Nightwriter]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I didn't think Jacob was whining. Ever. Kaiden was a whiner. Then again, it might be because he sounds like Carth Onasi...

The truth surfaces.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 avril 2010 - 07:40 .

[Collider]

Renessa wrote...
Perhaps there really is an issue with male rivalry?

I'm sure if it's really an issue that Bioware should even consider or address, but I do think it's an issue in general in the world. A lot of the problems we've had in the past, and to a lesser extent, the present, is chest beating. It was often under the guise of politics and kingdoms, of course, but humans are still territorial and aggressive. We've observed conflicts between clans in other primates, so this comes as no surprise, however unfortunate.

[Mondo_]

This might be a good topic if Captain Anderson wasn't such a badass and loved character.

[Nightwriter]

Mondo_ wrote...

This might be a good topic if Captain Anderson wasn't such a badass and loved character.

... And if I didn't know a ton of black players with black Shepards who dislike Jacob...

[Nightwriter]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

LuckyIronAxe wrote...
On the topic of love, I would put the blame entirely on Femshep, she was the one that came off as the galaxies biggest sleaze. Jacob I feel gets suck with the sticker of ‘bad love interest’ even though it was Shepard that made the relationship feel weird and off. Hell, some of Jacobs lines are very touching (and yes some of them are pure comedic gold) so It’s sad too me that Jacob gets docked points for this category even though it’s entirely Shepard’s fault.

That is a good point, and I think this is one of the big reasons for the dislike of his character too.  The writers gave FemShep the lines, but some players are projecting that onto Jacob's character, when it is actually FemShep's dialog and the way she speaks it.

Well, on the topic of love, I would put the blame entirely on JENNIFER HALE.

I'm  femShep - and I can tell you right now my femShep was freaked out and disgusted with the lines Jennifer Hale was making her say.

That's not who femShep is and that's not who femShep was attracted to! Don't blame the femShep!

Poor, poor femShep. She must bear the cross for her sad sleazy voice actress.

[Sharn01]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Awesome

[Sharn01]

Nightwriter wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

LuckyIronAxe wrote...
On the topic of love, I would put the blame entirely on Femshep, she was the one that came off as the galaxies biggest sleaze. Jacob I feel gets suck with the sticker of ‘bad love interest’ even though it was Shepard that made the relationship feel weird and off. Hell, some of Jacobs lines are very touching (and yes some of them are pure comedic gold) so It’s sad too me that Jacob gets docked points for this category even though it’s entirely Shepard’s fault.

That is a good point, and I think this is one of the big reasons for the dislike of his character too.  The writers gave FemShep the lines, but some players are projecting that onto Jacob's character, when it is actually FemShep's dialog and the way she speaks it.

Well, on the topic of love, I would put the blame entirely on JENNIFER HALE.

I'm  femShep - and I can tell you right now my femShep was freaked out and disgusted with the lines Jennifer Hale was making her say.

That's not who femShep is and that's not who femShep was attracted to! Don't blame the femShep!

Poor, poor femShep. She must bear the cross for her sad sleazy voice actress.

Not Hales fault, its the fault of the directors and writer's.  There is also a non flirty version of talking to Jacob recorded, they just neglected to use it and opted to use the ****ty voice, it would not help with the femShep humping the table when talking to Jacob, but it would have made the conversations bearable.

Besides, people make their character's, when our characters start acting in a manner we do not want them to we blame what is causing them to act that way, not the character.  If you where playing an RPG and the GM took your character sheet out of your hand and started doing your dialog with the other players you would be mad at your GM, not your character sheet.

Modifié par Sharn01, 13 avril 2010 - 08:11 .

[Fiedel]

I like Raphael Sbarge (Carth and Kaidan's VA), so I am always partial towards their characters.

[Nightwriter]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, on the topic of love, I would put the blame entirely on JENNIFER HALE.

I'm  femShep - and I can tell you right now my femShep was freaked out and disgusted with the lines Jennifer Hale was making her say.

That's not who femShep is and that's not who femShep was attracted to! Don't blame the femShep!

Poor, poor femShep. She must bear the cross for her sad sleazy voice actress.

Well I said FemShep, because that is the character in the game, and that is what the player sees and RP's with.  The blame goes to the writers and the voice director I suppose, and to a lesser extent the VA.  So apparently it was intentional right?  What was Bioware thinking, that maybe a lot of the players wanted to RP FemShep as easy sleazy? 
I suppose there is a fair share of players that like it, but you just don't hear it from them often.

Well, I said it was about Jennifer Hale because I hear in the German version this isn't in there at all - the German female Shepard does no such thing. Which got me thinking it was... Jennifer Hale. 

However Sharn now says they recorded a non-sleazy version of Jennifer Hale's talk with Jacob and simply opted for the sleazy version. Why I'll never know.

[ThePasserby]

I think Jacob is just a nice but bland guy. He confessed to Shepard that he and Wilson were with Cerberus though he didn't have to; he dissuaded Miranda from continuing with her tedious questioning while in the shuttle; he defended Joker when Miranda barged in with her recriminations. I might have missed a few other examples. So I see him as a good guy, but boring.

And as an Asian living in Asia who's blind to all the social and cultural baggage in the US, I can say that him being black has nothing to do with how I see him. I certainly wouldn't find him more likable if they made him Asian.

Modifié par ThePasserby, 13 avril 2010 - 08:30 .

[Nightwriter]

ThePasserby wrote...

And as an Asian living in Asia who's blind to all the social and cultural baggage in the US, I can say that him being black has nothing to do with how I see him. I certainly wouldn't find him more likable if they made him Asian.

Consensus: Jacob is pan-racially boring.

[Kusy]

But the PRIZZZZE!

[Onyx Jaguar]

Heavy risk...

[Kusy]

I have to go.