645 réponses à ce sujet

[gedman]

well if there is one thing we know about old TIM its that he doesn't just do things for the lulz, if he hand picked her then he must have a had a good reason for wanting her on the ship. for good or bad reasons he thorght she would be usefull



How does that make you feel?

[GuardianAngel470]

Cartims wrote...

Guardian Ange470 said: As a person who has met several and taken a general psychology class (the former being the more important) I can say that unless you go to one on purpose, it feels very invasive. They ask you questions that you feel are trying to dig deep and they contradict you when you say things to try and "fix" you.

The only thing therapists say are....."How does that make you feel"........"Your time is up" and "that will be $300 for this session"......I don't think I ever heard anything else....hahahaha.....

There's also the occasional "No, you did it with hard work."

"Seriously, I made no conscious effort."

"No, you did it. You need to take responsibility for your successes."

"Doc, seriously, unless you wanna find out what happened to the last therapist to tick me off, drop it"

"Honest son, if you don't take responsibility for your successes you'll-....ARGHH!"

*Head ripped off shoulders and brain pulled out from inside and mounted on a spear.*

"You're right doc, I did achieve some things with hard work. Your head really wanted to stay on there for a second."

I may have, umm, embellished some of that. Probably the part where I actually let the guy talk.

[GuardianAngel470]

In all seriousness though, by subtle I mean that she asks questions about one thing but is looking for answers to a completely different question. She would analyze their every word and most likely, given the fact that she can't accurately sympathize with them since all she has is book learning, she would attribute certain things to the wrong causes.



By your own definitions, she would be analyzing the crew and in my opinion she just doesn't have the necessary experience to come to the right conclusions.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sounds like someone has paranoia issues. Probably should go to a shink.





Seriously,though, psychologists are important support for military groups, and Kelly's role is a valid one, if not wellexplored. Her 'you should talk to them' discussions are a pointing out of those signs, mixed with gameplay mechanic.



Is it remarkably well done in the context of the game? No. A lot of things the game claims to or mentions aren't explored.

[GuardianAngel470]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sounds like someone has paranoia issues. Probably should go to a shink.


Seriously,though, psychologists are important support for military groups, and Kelly's role is a valid one, if not wellexplored. Her 'you should talk to them' discussions are a pointing out of those signs, mixed with gameplay mechanic.

Is it remarkably well done in the context of the game? No. A lot of things the game claims to or mentions aren't explored.

They do, but as I understand it military psychologists spend actual time in the field. I could be wrong though, but that was my impression.

[gedman]

i would assume that after the crew were captured and nearly melted down by the collecters they might want a bit of a chat with kelly, even if they were a bit weary of her loyalties

[GuardianAngel470]

gedman wrote...

i would assume that after the crew were captured and nearly melted down by the collecters they might want a bit of a chat with kelly, even if they were a bit weary of her loyalties

But kelly is the one who's made slightly crazy by it...

[GuardianAngel470]

The only one.

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sounds like someone has paranoia issues. Probably should go to a shink.


Seriously,though, psychologists are important support for military groups, and Kelly's role is a valid one, if not wellexplored. Her 'you should talk to them' discussions are a pointing out of those signs, mixed with gameplay mechanic.

Is it remarkably well done in the context of the game? No. A lot of things the game claims to or mentions aren't explored.

They do, but as I understand it military psychologists spend actual time in the field. I could be wrong though, but that was my impression.

You would be wrong. Unless by 'in the field' you mean 'on abase.'

Psychologists, counselors, and chaplains (and their other religious equivalents) fall under Combat Service Support, or basically rear-line units. They might come up, but they are not combat units. Chaplains and doctors are in part barred from taking part in combat by Geneva protocols.

They are not, in other words, scarred dozen year veterans who've seen and done everything under the sun so that they can claim experience in the matters. In branches not directly in the ground war (Naval, Airforce), 'the field' means something else entirely in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

gedman wrote...

i would assume that after the crew were captured and nearly melted down by the collecters they might want a bit of a chat with kelly, even if they were a bit weary of her loyalties

But kelly is the one who's made slightly crazy by it...

Kelly's the only one talking about it. When we ask. If we don't ask, we get no more from her than anyone else.

A lack of evidence is not an evidence of lack. In this case, Chakwas as well talks about how traumatizing it was. Being affected is not 'crazy'.

[GuardianAngel470]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

gedman wrote...

i would assume that after the crew were captured and nearly melted down by the collecters they might want a bit of a chat with kelly, even if they were a bit weary of her loyalties

But kelly is the one who's made slightly crazy by it...

Kelly's the only one talking about it. When we ask. If we don't ask, we get no more from her than anyone else.

A lack of evidence is not an evidence of lack. In this case, Chakwas as well talks about how traumatizing it was. Being affected is not 'crazy'.

But the strange, drell like flashback and agitated behavior does. I didn't say completely crazy, just slightly. Chakwas says that it was a lot to endure, and she sounds tired, but she also seems completely rational and even goes so far as to call you a true friend.

The cook tells you how you're aces in his book, he doesn't sound even the slight bit crazy, the woman at the table tells you about her friend who got hurt trying to help joker, the pair in the bunk room sound a little shaken up but also exuberant, and ken and gabby both seem fine. Gabby expressed something about "slipping away" but on the whole she seemed fine.

Kelly was the only one to behave as if she had lost a bit of her sanity. "Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you!"

The way she said it seemed very much unstable. She was not her usual self.

And I didn't mean 12 year veterans, I only meant some exposure to actual combat. They have a degree in psychology yes but they aren't civilians. They aren't sitting at home with the plaque on the wall and then suddenly on the front lines. A base is still better than what it seems Kelly has since a base can be attacked, a car can be attacked entering and leaving it, or any other violent situation.

Being stationed on a base is still better than being at a hospital on the homeland. I just don't think Kelly had seen any of that.

[Shepard Lives]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

But the strange, drell like flashback and agitated behavior does. I didn't say completely crazy, just slightly. Chakwas says that it was a lot to endure, and she sounds tired, but she also seems completely rational and even goes so far as to call you a true friend.

The cook tells you how you're aces in his book, he doesn't sound even the slight bit crazy, the woman at the table tells you about her friend who got hurt trying to help joker, the pair in the bunk room sound a little shaken up but also exuberant, and ken and gabby both seem fine. Gabby expressed something about "slipping away" but on the whole she seemed fine.

Kelly was the only one to behave as if she had lost a bit of her sanity. "Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you!"

The way she said it seemed very much unstable. She was not her usual self.

And I didn't mean 12 year veterans, I only meant some exposure to actual combat. They have a degree in psychology yes but they aren't civilians. They aren't sitting at home with the plaque on the wall and then suddenly on the front lines. A base is still better than what it seems Kelly has since a base can be attacked, a car can be attacked entering and leaving it, or any other violent situation.

Being stationed on a base is still better than being at a hospital on the homeland. I just don't think Kelly had seen any of that.

This is very much subjective. You say she's gone bonkers, I say she's a little traumatized. Wouldn't you say "a thousand times thank you" to the guy who just saved you from being smoothied alive?

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

gedman wrote...

i would assume that after the crew were captured and nearly melted down by the collecters they might want a bit of a chat with kelly, even if they were a bit weary of her loyalties

But kelly is the one who's made slightly crazy by it...

Kelly's the only one talking about it. When we ask. If we don't ask, we get no more from her than anyone else.

A lack of evidence is not an evidence of lack. In this case, Chakwas as well talks about how traumatizing it was. Being affected is not 'crazy'.

But the strange, drell like flashback and agitated behavior does. I didn't say completely crazy, just slightly. Chakwas says that it was a lot to endure, and she sounds tired, but she also seems completely rational and even goes so far as to call you a true friend.

The cook tells you how you're aces in his book, he doesn't sound even the slight bit crazy, the woman at the table tells you about her friend who got hurt trying to help joker, the pair in the bunk room sound a little shaken up but also exuberant, and ken and gabby both seem fine. Gabby expressed something about "slipping away" but on the whole she seemed fine.

Kelly was the only one to behave as if she had lost a bit of her sanity. "Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you!"

The way she said it seemed very much unstable. She was not her usual self.

Funny as this may seem, the world (and military) are not populated by stoic, unflappable bad-asses who never show any sign of harm, weakness, or aftereffects after traumatic or extreme experiences. People often show extreme emotions once their lives are saved, and many people react differently to stress.

The veiled assumption that being affected by things is a sign of weakness and unsuitability is a major cultural flaw in the military, and remains despite organized effort to change it. Your attitud is part of a recognized problem in the military.

And I didn't mean 12 year veterans, I only meant some exposure to
actual combat. They have a degree in psychology yes but they aren't
civilians. They aren't sitting at home with the plaque on the wall and
then suddenly on the front lines. A base is still better than what it
seems Kelly has since a base can be attacked, a car can be attacked
entering and leaving it, or any other violent situation.

Being
stationed on a base is still better than being at a hospital on the
homeland. I just don't think Kelly had seen any of that.

No.

[Tag1702]

Nice to see some discussion going on in here while I was away.

I had really just planned on dropping in and announcing that the next section is up in my fic (follow the link), but I think I'll toss my hat in here too.

First of all, I don't think Kelly went bonkers-style crazy after her near death experience. Even the Drell-style flashback doesn't completely convince me of that. She along with the entire crew, aside from your squad, were nearly melted down into a smoothy for that big ass X-Men style Reaper to enjoy at it's leisure. When I say nearly, I mean within minutes or seconds. That's going to affect you. It's going to affect you big time. We don't really know much about the backgrounds for most of the minor crewmembers aboard the ship, but we know this much: Gabby and Kenneth served aboard a ship and fought in the Battle of the Citadel, Gardner has been with Cerberus for some time now, not to mention the fact that he was working the equivalent of oil rigs (Element Zero rigs) out on the frontier which can't be without it's share of extreme risk, Chakwas has served aboard Starships for most of her career and is used to dealing with risk. Given her age and the fact that her skills are more knowledge based, it's fair to say that she probably hasn't faced danger on this level. Just my opinion.

As far as whether she belongs on the Normandy? Who can say. What I would assume though, is that T.I.M. and Cerberus have put an assload of money into Shepard and the Normandy, and know full well that there are going to be a lot of mind sets on the ship. If I were T.I.M. and I'd invested my savings in a high risk venture like this, I'd want to do everything I could to protect that investment. I'd want somebody on board who might recognize the signs that a problem was building before it actually exploded. Would the people on board necessarily want to talk to her? Maybe not, but at least she would be there and somebody who's gifted in reading people, doesn't necessarily need to talk to somebody to know that somethings up, and even put together some idea of what it might be. Kelly might not be able to determine what the problem is exactly, but she would have an idea of what she needed to start watching, and what she might want to report to the Commander, Miranda, or even T.I.M. if she thought it were serious enough.

As far as spending time in the field. I offer these two thoughts. First of all, Cerberus isn't true military any more. They've gone underground and may have developed their own proceedures and protocols. Secondly, though it's definitely a major undertaking, this could be her time in the field. Also, it's stated, by Kelly herself, that T.I.M. handpicked her. He knows that if this fails humanity is done for. If he handpicked her, it stands to reason that she's gifted in her field and that she has skills that he's interested in. It could be that he sees a quality in her work, or a something about the way that she interacts with others, that for those reasons places her above other, more seasoned head doctors in his book. For whatever reason, T.I.M. believed that she was the best person for the job, and I think it's fair to say that we definitely don't know everything about her, her motives, or the reason that she was chosen.

Just some of my thoughts. BTW: New section up in my fic. Follow the link in my signature.

[Shepard Lives]

 Nice job, Tag. Alyssa's shaping up to be a great character. I also like the fact that you've tried to tackle the afterlife issue (BW couldn't do it, obviously. Religions are touchy like that.) 

Just one thing.

The young Quarian [...] was definitely a gifted tech and biotic

?
Also, N7 underwear? Really? 
... I want it too.

Modifié par shepard_lives, 20 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[Tag1702]

shepard_lives wrote...

 Nice job, Tag. Alyssa's shaping up to be a great character. I also like the fact that you've tried to tackle the afterlife issue (BW couldn't do it, obviously. Religions are touchy like that.) 

Just one thing.

The young Quarian [...] was definitely a gifted tech and biotic

?
Also, N7 underwear? Really? 
... I want it too.

Nice catch on that line. Somehow I missed it on my readthrough, so thanks for bringing it to my attention. I think I've fixed it, though it won't showup on the active story for a half an hour to an hour. 

As far as the afterlife thing, I don't think I'm quite done playing around with that. I think I just kind of set the tone here. Bioware can't do it because they risk alienating uncounted fans based on what they do and thus losing money. Nobody's paying me for this, so I figure I might take a shot at it.

The N7 thing just amused me to no end, so i decided I'd go with it. I've seen the whole logo thing on underwear before and thought, what the hell. I also enjoyed the line about her traveling to help Kasumi and hoping that this wasn't going to be a "pattern" or regular thing. That made me chuckle too.

Anyway, thanks for checking out the story (In particular for catching that gramattical trainwreck of a sentence )

[Dean_the_Young]

If there's one thing missing from Kelly's dialogue that would have made her (and pretty much every other 'romance' character) more interesting would be a 'renegade' tone romance.



Some people like hyper-flirty paragon niceness. But some people like bad guys (or girls), and a relationship on another, more serious, path than super-flirthing would have been interesting.



Granted, Kelly is too minor a character to warrant something none of the romances really got, but it could have. Why couldn't I warn her off against psycho-analyzing me, yet have a point about how she simply can't not do such a thing? What if my Shepard separates buisness and pleasure, and while impersonal initially feels ready to be more casual later? How about the lack of feel for an 'exclusive' relationship, in which you can ask/challenge Kelly about just where you two stand, and have to figure out where her job/role/modus operandi ends and what her personal feelings begin?

[Der-3]

Tag1702 wrote... BTW: New section up in my fic. Follow the link in my signature.

Thanks for this. You're doing a great work. Can't wait for the return of Kelly

[GuardianAngel470]

shepard_lives wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

But the strange, drell like flashback and agitated behavior does. I didn't say completely crazy, just slightly. Chakwas says that it was a lot to endure, and she sounds tired, but she also seems completely rational and even goes so far as to call you a true friend.

The cook tells you how you're aces in his book, he doesn't sound even the slight bit crazy, the woman at the table tells you about her friend who got hurt trying to help joker, the pair in the bunk room sound a little shaken up but also exuberant, and ken and gabby both seem fine. Gabby expressed something about "slipping away" but on the whole she seemed fine.

Kelly was the only one to behave as if she had lost a bit of her sanity. "Thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you!"

The way she said it seemed very much unstable. She was not her usual self.

And I didn't mean 12 year veterans, I only meant some exposure to actual combat. They have a degree in psychology yes but they aren't civilians. They aren't sitting at home with the plaque on the wall and then suddenly on the front lines. A base is still better than what it seems Kelly has since a base can be attacked, a car can be attacked entering and leaving it, or any other violent situation.

Being stationed on a base is still better than being at a hospital on the homeland. I just don't think Kelly had seen any of that.

This is very much subjective. You say she's gone bonkers, I say she's a little traumatized. Wouldn't you say "a thousand times thank you" to the guy who just saved you from being smoothied alive?

Maybe. Then again, I'm not really comparable to Kelly since here in California I'm legally insane. I'm also fatalistic and realistic about death, so it is hard to say.

All I'm saying is is that Kelly, of all the crew on the ship, sounds the most affected by the experience. I also don't believe, based on her behavior, dialog, and lack thereof, that she has the necessary experience to understand where my team is coming from. I believe that it takes more than book learning to understand where someone is coming from, you need some sort of experience whether it is talking with wounded in a base's hospital or watching them die as they call for their parents.  Any kind of direct exposure to the types of personalities and situations soldiers see is better than what it seems Kelly has.

She tells you she has a degree in psychology but she never says whether she has had any past military involvement or training.

And in the end, if I were going on a suicide mission with an AI, Cerberus, and everyone else telling me my chances of success and survival, I would find Kelly's personality abrasive. It is simply too happy for the circumstances.

I know what your thinking, a happy personality would liven up the crew, help them forget about the mission, but I just don't think I would feel that way.

[Fancando]

After my first playthrough where she died, I always save her, not many squadmates can dance in my quarters on a moments notice or feed the fish....she fulfils my Captain Kirk fantasies with both male and female Shepard.

What's there not to like in Kelly?

[GuardianAngel470]

Fancando wrote...

After my first playthrough where she died, I always save her, not many squadmates can dance in my quarters on a moments notice or feed the fish....she fulfils my Captain Kirk fantasies with both male and female Shepard.
What's there not to like in Kelly?

I tried to get her to dance, but she wouldn't. Ultimately, I save her because killing her would require killing large amounts of the rest of the crew, and she just doesn't matter to me that much.

[Fancando]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Fancando wrote...

After my first playthrough where she died, I always save her, not many squadmates can dance in my quarters on a moments notice or feed the fish....she fulfils my Captain Kirk fantasies with both male and female Shepard.
What's there not to like in Kelly?

I tried to get her to dance, but she wouldn't. Ultimately, I save her because killing her would require killing large amounts of the rest of the crew, and she just doesn't matter to me that much.

I just let her hit on me from the beginning, just find the right dialog and it is very easy later, ust be nice and the benefits begin.
Sorry if I can't remember the dialog sequence right now.

[GuardianAngel470]

Fancando wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Fancando wrote...

After my first playthrough where she died, I always save her, not many squadmates can dance in my quarters on a moments notice or feed the fish....she fulfils my Captain Kirk fantasies with both male and female Shepard.
What's there not to like in Kelly?

I tried to get her to dance, but she wouldn't. Ultimately, I save her because killing her would require killing large amounts of the rest of the crew, and she just doesn't matter to me that much.

I just let her hit on me from the beginning, just find the right dialog and it is very easy later, ust be nice and the benefits begin.
Sorry if I can't remember the dialog sequence right now.

I did...

[Fancando]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Fancando wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Fancando wrote...

After my first playthrough where she died, I always save her, not many squadmates can dance in my quarters on a moments notice or feed the fish....she fulfils my Captain Kirk fantasies with both male and female Shepard.
What's there not to like in Kelly?

I tried to get her to dance, but she wouldn't. Ultimately, I save her because killing her would require killing large amounts of the rest of the crew, and she just doesn't matter to me that much.

I just let her hit on me from the beginning, just find the right dialog and it is very easy later, ust be nice and the benefits begin.
Sorry if I can't remember the dialog sequence right now.

I did...

I don't know how to help you then, sorry.

[Der-3]

Hi all ! And sorry for my bad english.
My biggest wish is to see the return of Kelly in ME3 but i am afraid it might not be the case.
In ME2, the characters that can die in ME1 but survived have a very small impact on the storyline. And Kelly can die in ME2
I am afraid Bioware will put her on another Cerberus ship or give her command of some Cerberus unit and that Shepard has no or very small contact with her...