219 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Shale's gender isn't something that needs to be spoiled when it's not necessary. More fun to let people find it out themselves.

She's sort of like a drag queen.  I feel it's most respectful to call her Shayle and "she."

I'm sorry, but if you're in a place that has big signs saying "SPOILER" all over the place, seeing an extra "y" an and an extra "s" is the least of your concerns.

[tmp7704]

I don't have issue with people revealing Shale's gender in the (Spoilers) forum section, was just providing alternate explanation why some people might want to keep it under wraps when they talk about the character (than the initially suggested "LOL U ALL DUMB")

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 novembre 2009 - 01:16 .

[Walina]

Lil-Vinny29 wrote...

Im right where you have to choose between the two.  Whats the consequences, a little afraid of the outcome of choosing sides here unless theres none really?

Thank you for helping me out

Caridin for sure!
Branka is a crazy woman who sacrificed her house and men for the power

[T1l]

I don't understand why keeping the Anvil is "evil" either.

What Caradin explains is that, when he was a Dwarf, the King at the time was a tyrant who forced casteless dusters and criminals to become golems against their will. Ok, I agree that's not kosher. If you have Shale with you, however, Caradin and Shale both make it quite clear (as does the roster of Dwarf/Golems) that not all Golems have been made against their will, and in-fact most of the original Golems like Shale were willing participants. As Shale says at one point, "Who wouldn't want to be 12 feet tall and made of stone?".

To me, using the Anvil isn't "evil". It's how you use it that's the issue. It's like calling a gun evil, it makes no sense. You can use it inappropriately, but that's entirely at the discretion of the people in charge of using it. Simply don't let the Anvil fall into the hands of despots and retards. Do you think Harrowmont would willingly enslave his own people? I don't. Bhelen might, though.

From the perspective of my character, who was a Dwarf Noble, having the opportunity to become a Golem and dutifully keeping the Deep Roads clear of Darkspawn would be a grand alternative to exile to the surface, where I am stricken from the memories. My character went on to be posthumously re-entered into the memories and buried next to my father, Endirn, but for all the other Dwarfs (like some of the Legion of the Dead) becoming a Golem would be a brilliant alternative.

Anyway... they're my thoughts on the matter. Caradin simply calling the Anvil "evil" didn't make sense to me. You're giving an inanimate soulless object disposition; that makes no sense. It's how it's used which might, or might not, be an issue.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I didn't like Branka as a person, but to destroy the anvil is not something any sensible Grey Warden or Dwarf would do.



All the time I was in the deep roads, exploring the Thaigs, I thought to myself how great the old Dwarven Empire must have been. And now, it's nothing bu ruins and Orzammar itself is under constant threat. The Legion of the Dead are scattered and their fortress has fallen. Solution? Obviously it's the golems. The golems were what allowed the dwarves to build their Empire and maintain it and also defeat the first blight (aka a Grey Warden's ONLY priority). Destroying the golems, the only hope for the dwarves in both the short and long run, is insensible.



The real question is not the anvil perse, but how its usage is regulated. I would have some problems, in theory, to force people into becoming golems. Though this theoritical objection would be removed in extreme emergency situations. Afterall, we didn't have much choice when we joined the Grey Wardens anyhow. If the Grey Wardens have the right to concript anyone they desire and force the taint on them (and a 1/2 to die in the process), then forcing a dwarf to become a golem doesn't sound so bad.



That being said, I would have definately loved if there was an option to keep the anvil and kill Branka. I wouldn't trust the anvil to Branka, who has expressed her indifference to Orzammar, its leaders and sovereignity. Just like I wouldn't trust any military commander with control over the military. "War is too important a matter to be left to the military" -Clemenceau.

In the same vein, I say that the anvil is too important a matter to be left to an obsessed, irresponsable, person.

[Recidiva]

T1l wrote...

I don't understand why keeping the Anvil is "evil" either.

What Caradin explains is that, when he was a Dwarf, the King at the time was a tyrant who forced casteless dusters and criminals to become golems against their will. Ok, I agree that's not kosher. If you have Shale with you, however, Caradin and Shale both make it quite clear (as does the roster of Dwarf/Golems) that not all Golems have been made against their will, and in-fact most of the original Golems like Shale were willing participants. As Shale says at one point, "Who wouldn't want to be 12 feet tall and made of stone?".

To me, using the Anvil isn't "evil". It's how you use it that's the issue. It's like calling a gun evil, it makes no sense. You can use it inappropriately, but that's entirely at the discretion of the people in charge of using it. Simply don't let the Anvil fall into the hands of despots and retards. Do you think Harrowmont would willingly enslave his own people? I don't. Bhelen might, though.

From the perspective of my character, who was a Dwarf Noble, having the opportunity to become a Golem and dutifully keeping the Deep Roads clear of Darkspawn would be a grand alternative to exile to the surface, where I am stricken from the memories. My character went on to be posthumously re-entered into the memories and buried next to my father, Endirn, but for all the other Dwarfs (like some of the Legion of the Dead) becoming a Golem would be a brilliant alternative.

Anyway... they're my thoughts on the matter. Caradin simply calling the Anvil "evil" didn't make sense to me. You're giving an inanimate soulless object disposition; that makes no sense. It's how it's used which might, or might not, be an issue.

The Anvil itself is not inherently evil.  Just like a fast magical car isn't evil inherently if it's driven responsibly.

However, Branka is the equivalent of a meth-addicted homicidal and suicidal crazy/obsessed person who will see every living person as someone she needs to drive over and then back up and drive over again.  I'm surprised you even make it out of the room at all before she pours you a suit.

It's who you're putting behind the wheel, so to speak.  You don't get to pick who is going to drive.

[T1l]

It's who you're putting behind the wheel, so to speak.  You don't get to pick who is going to drive.

Exactly. The lack of options in this situation is depressing, really. Bioware forces us to either side with Caradin and destroy the Anvil, or side with Branka and keep the Anvil. There's no inbetweens. A shame.

[Varenus Luckmann]

It's actually kinda sad that they made it so obvious Branka = Evil and Caridin = Good. The "Branka is completely batsh!t" kinda gives everything away. Branka should've been obsessed, but not depicted as a ravin' crazie.

It would've made the choice a lot more morally ambigious.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:05 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

tmp7704 wrote...
Shale's gender isn't something that needs to be spoiled when it's not necessary. More fun to let people find it out themselves.

What's there to be found out? It's not like it's some kind of huge secret. Voice, speech and manner tells you that Shale is a woman from the moment you meet her.

It's sorta like "Baaaaw, the game is totally ruin't. Why did you have to reveal that Leliana has breasts? Totally spoilerific! D:".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

It's actually kinda sad that they made it so obvious Branka = Evil and Caridin = Good. The "Branka is completely bat****" kinda gives everything away.

I don't think Branka is evil, I think she is detestable. That's the problem. Bioware made Branka a person that is hard to sympathise with, not because of beliefs or even actions, but just by the way she talks. If they had presented Branka in a more mature, cmplicated way, then it would have been better. They should have shown a very aware and sad part of Branka that had difficulty sacrificing what she loves. Thats the very point of a sacrifice, that it's hard to perform. The problem with Branka is that you don't get the feeling of sacrifice with her.

In contrast, Saren from Mass Effect is a person I very much sympathised with. Even if I was 100% opposed to his afction (not his logic). On the otherhand, I hate Branka, don't sympathise with her at all, and yet still choose to save the anvil because it's that important.
Since Bioware did not create a sympathetic Branka, it would have been preferable to have more than 2 options (it's always better to have at least 3 options). I would have killed Branka and Caridin and kept the anvil, perhaps gave it to the Legion, as they show at least some concern to Orzammar's sovereignity.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:14 .

[T1l]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I would have killed Branka and Caridin and kept the anvil.

Spot on. Had I have had the opportunity I would have done exactly the same.

[Recidiva]

T1l wrote...

It's who you're putting behind the wheel, so to speak.  You don't get to pick who is going to drive.

Exactly. The lack of options in this situation is depressing, really. Bioware forces us to either side with Caradin and destroy the Anvil, or side with Branka and keep the Anvil. There's no inbetweens. A shame.

Yes, there's zero "moral" choice here, there's just strategic choice if you can stomach it.  She's worse than the darkspawn, otherwise.  Not just a mindless creature bent on destruction.  An evil, crazy genius who has no reason to deliver or do anything that she wanted for so long.  I'd assume Branka wouldn't care about surface problems as she's trying to restore Orzammar and her legacy, and it doesn't look like much will get in her way.

But there's no reason to think Branka's sane.  It's safe enough to assume she might deliver golems made out of an explosive she developed during her "quiet crazy time" that all detonate at once and take Denerim with them.  That's her version of politiely declining an invitation to assist.

[Varenus Luckmann]

@KnightofPhoenix;
I completely agree with you. That's just what I meant - the issue is basicly that Branka is completely batsh!t. The lack of redeeming qualities automaticly pegs her as evil, and there's not really any argument as to wheter she is or not. She's kick-the-puppy evil and I constantly felt like every word she spoke was a variation of "Bwahahahaha! Look at how EVIL I am! *cackle*".

Killing Caridin to save the Forge and killing Branka because she's insane would definately have been my choice aswell.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

imported_beer wrote...

I can understand Branka's obsession.

Humans face a blight every once in a while. The Grey Wardens protect them and then boom, Arch demon defeated, the dark spawn crawl back to the deep roads and humans earn a bit of respite if they won.

Dwarves- they face this everyday. Their empire has crumbled, their cities have been destroyed, their people lost to darkspawn everyday, -they have so few options left. At times like this, I can understand why someone would go crazy and obsessed because they think their only choice is an absolutely extreme one.

That being said, understanding where Branka is coming from and actually going along with it is different. If I played as a dwarf, I'd have gone with Branka for RP purposes because I would have understood where she is coming from - being from the same place. But as a human in Ferelden, I can afford to be more judgemental. And compassionate.

Even as a human noble, I would have understood Branka's logic. That doesn't change the fact that she is not a likeable person. More like a comic book villain to me. I always refer to Saren because, despite being very opposed to him, he strikes me as one of the most sympathetic antagonists in any game. That's because Saren's arguments, his logic and the way he genuinely and sincerily tries to convince both you and himself is what made him into such a great character.

Branka on the otherhand acts like a ****. Hasen't seen her husband in 2 years and doesn't have any emotion when she sees him. Had her house killed but still doesn't have any emotion. Had her own femal followers and her lover turned into broodmothers in a very gruesome way and still fail to have emotions. 
To contrast her to Sten. Sten doesn't SHOW emotion, but he clearly has them and is a very big softy at heart. Branka simply doesn't have any emotion except obsession. Plus her vulgarity. 

My problem is not with Branka's actions, logic or motivation. My problem is with her personality. That's why I should have had the option to kill her and keep the anvil.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 novembre 2009 - 02:30 .

[tmp7704]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

What's there to be found out? It's not like it's some kind of huge secret. Voice, speech and manner tells you that Shale is a woman from the moment you meet her.

Yeah, if it fancies shoes and hates pigeons it must be a woman. Oh wait, don't women just stay barefoot in kitchen all day long and so don't need shoes?

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think Branka is evil, I think she is detestable.

I thought she simply went crazy overtime from all the exposed lyrium around her. You can see in the city what this stuff can do even to a dwarf, it's no wonder compulsive-obsessive person --like Branka is made to be-- could be driven completely over the edge given the months she'd spent sitting there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think Branka is evil, I think she is detestable.

I thought she simply went crazy overtime from all the exposed lyrium around her. You can see in the city what this stuff can do even to a dwarf, it's no wonder compulsive-obsessive person --like Branka is made to be-- could be driven completely over the edge given the months she'd spent sitting there.

Well Garin had the lyrium problem and I love the guy
But yes you have a good point. I haven't considered the possibility of lyrium generated insanity.
Doesn't change my position though. 

[T1l]

Erm, yes, yes... ah... yes... Have you seen my lunch? It was a sandwich; lichen bread, shredded meat with some cheese?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The thing with the anvil isn't that it's evil in of itself, but it's a temptation that leads men (or dwarves in this case) into evil. As we saw the first time around, it starts out relatively benevolent, only taking volunteers. Granted those volunteers don't realize they'll be drowned alive with molten hot lyrium and then have their new bodies carefully (and painfully) pounded into a golem shape, but they're still volunteers. Then, it's a short distance from volunteers to "people who volunteered by opposing the king, or by being born casteless."



It's a really slippery slope, and I'd have destroyed it even if Branka wasn't a total nut, simply because it's like the ultimate temptation.

[eschilde]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I didn't like Branka as a person, but to destroy the anvil is not something any sensible Grey Warden or Dwarf would do.

I don't agree. DA does a great job of giving you the ability to make choices, and that's for a reason. You can choose to take the moral high ground or the most efficient route. Not saying one is better than the other, depending on what kind of character/personality you're playing. Archdemon still dies in the end.

[KnightofPhoenix]

eschilde wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I didn't like Branka as a person, but to destroy the anvil is not something any sensible Grey Warden or Dwarf would do.

I don't agree. DA does a great job of giving you the ability to make choices, and that's for a reason. You can choose to take the moral high ground or the most efficient route. Not saying one is better than the other, depending on what kind of character/personality you're playing. Archdemon still dies in the end.

That's from an out universe perspective. We don't even need allies that much anyhow. Regardless of what we do, the archdemon dies.

But in-universe, if a Grey Warden is confronted with two choices:
- Have the all mighty golems at his side
- Not have them.
He would obviously pick the first option. That's at least what the typical, examplary Grey Warden would do.
Duncan, who seems to be the ieal Grey Warden: "The blight must be stopped one way or the other. That's as far my opinion goes".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 novembre 2009 - 03:25 .

[eschilde]

Yeah, but if you gave the choice to Alistair, who is also a Grey Warden, he'd destroy it. Personal choice.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

eschilde wrote...

Yeah, but if you gave the choice to Alistair, who is also a Grey Warden, he'd destroy it. Personal choice.

While true, Alistair isn't exactly the best exemplar of Wardenhood. He lets his personal feelings get in the way of utility at the Landsmeet. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

eschilde wrote...

Yeah, but if you gave the choice to Alistair, who is also a Grey Warden, he'd destroy it. Personal choice.

Alistair didn't have any problem abandoning my party because I spared Loghain just before we face the blight. Not something a Grey Warden would do. A Grey Warden might hate every other Grey Warden around him, but he would never abandon them against the blight. Alistiar is not, imo, a true Grey Warden.