219 réponses à ce sujet

[FedericoV]

As a human or a elf I would choose Caridin all the times.

But as a dwarf that maybe knows how badly Orzamar needs the Golem to save the kingdom... well, I think that I would choose Branka even if she is a crazy and evil person.

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[Ponce de Leon]

I sided with Branka on my second run through. But I did this because I liked Oghren. After defeating Caradin, I reasoned with Branka. She built the crown, destroyed the anvil herself and made a suicide after raising her hand to Oghren. It had to be one of the most sad moments of the game.

[blauregen]

In my capacity as a grey warden i recognized the potential fighting power of a golem army. In my capacity as a city elf though, I had a pretty good idea who would have to volunteer for becoming a giant orlesian-fighting metal statue (and who would hold the control rod), should Anora and Bhelen ever get around to make a technological exchange agreement.



So for purely pragmatical reasons Branka had to die again.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Krenmu wrote...

Yea, But if your a patriotic dwarf..why would you want to basically murder them to create golems?

Depends on whether or not you actually value dwarven life since Branka's work is insanity.

[The Angry One]

Me, I'd kill Caradin for being a self-pitying fool, toss Branka into the lava and secure the anvil for research and limited use strictly for volunteers, placing it under the control of the Wardens perhaps.

Of course that's not an option, alas.

[RunCDFirst]

The Angry One wrote...

Me, I'd kill Caradin for being a self-pitying fool, toss Branka into the lava and secure the anvil for research and limited use strictly for volunteers, placing it under the control of the Wardens perhaps.
Of course that's not an option, alas.

You can't really insure that it stays volunteer only though. Not that destroying it ensures that the technology never gets rediscovered and used again. I can understand why Caradin might be filled with some self-pity, he's kinda made the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear bomb.

[The Angry One]

RunCDFirst wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Me, I'd kill Caradin for being a self-pitying fool, toss Branka into the lava and secure the anvil for research and limited use strictly for volunteers, placing it under the control of the Wardens perhaps.
Of course that's not an option, alas.

You can't really insure that it stays volunteer only though. Not that destroying it ensures that the technology never gets rediscovered and used again. I can understand why Caradin might be filled with some self-pity, he's kinda made the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear bomb.

To be perfectly frank I'd rather risk people being enslaved to the anvil than being converted into ghouls and.. yuck.. broodmothers.
But I think under the regulation of the wardens, perhaps with the help of the legion of the dead it would at least stave off any tyrant in Orzammar from thinking he could make anyone a golem.
And if Orzammar doesn't like it, threaten to give the anvil the good old lava plunge.

[Mavkiel]

Yeah I felt really limited with this quest. Side with crazy dwarf, or side with crazy golem. No kill everyone and hand this over to someone sane. Or give it to the legion of the dead. They would probably be the last group to abuse it.

[ZiffyHead]

In my opinion, the anvil is indeed evil by its very nature, as it requires a life to be subjected to unimaginable torture in order for it to function. The anvil can’t be used, for any reason without it “doing this evil”.



True the anvil (or any such device) could be “used for good”, but even if you chose to only use it (in an act of heroic self sacrifice) on yourself in order to “perform your act of goodness”, the anvil still “inflicts an act of evil” on the would-be hero.



A gun on the other hand can be fired all day long without causing any harm to any living thing if one chooses to do so. Sure a gun can be used for either good or evil, but it is not “inherently evil”.



I see blood magic as existing in a gray area between the two. Certainly some blood magic is evil, as it requires a life to be sacrificed. On the other hand some blood magic (in game terms) simply depletes a “power bar” without causing insufferable physical pain or permanent injury and would not seem evil if it was done willingly. Voluntarily giving blood to a local hospital for instance does not seem evil to me and we don’t have magic potions to restore our “health” when we choose to do so.

[The Angry One]

If you call the Anvil evil you might as well call the Joining evil.

While the latter isn't as extreme, it's still a death sentence, and it's still becoming part of the darkspawn, in a sense.



In an ideal world the Anvil wouldn't be needed, but this is a world where darkspawn infest the old dwarven kingdoms even when there is no Blight.

While the process itself is horrific, those who wish to sacrifice themselves to become Golems should have the right to do it, and destroying it is a huge disservice to the people who already chose to make that sacrifice.

[menasure]

well playing as elf i had no trouble siding with branka ... it's a silly -what has she been doing down there for 2 years? takes me a lot less time to get where she is - and sadistical bat however i did what i had to for my cause (earned myself the pragmatist achievement) and did not care for the whole politics or the future of the dwarves.
now i'm up as casteless dwarf, i have shale in the team ... looks like it's going to be the crazy golem choice because a mad woman like branka in charge of the anvil? paragon or not, i think not lol, especially with a casteless background where you learn to not respect those who you are presumed to respect.
at first i was asking myself whether one of both could be king instead ... they're paragons after all but even if the option is available -no idea about that- it turns out that they're even more deranged than the candidates
on the other hand i still have a "omg just let me rule instead of being errant boy for those idiot rulers" feeling but i guess the choices are those which are presented along the line and even then it's clear how they got their power. it's even an argument used by Loghain on the landsmeet. on the other hand going down in a big offensive against the hordes in the deep roads side by side with carol commander of the dead legions seems appealing. if you have to go down anyway then it's better to make a lasting impression with a big bang

Modifié par menasure, 05 décembre 2009 - 10:29 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Logically speaking, taking the Anvil for the Wardens is the most reasonable response, if such an option were offered. Haul it off to Weisshaupt Fortress and have Grey Wardens volunteer to become golems when they get old, instead of dying fighting in the deep roads. The Grey Wardens more than anyone understand the necessity for sacrifice, and are willing to do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn.

Losing all of Ferelden to the Blight would be better than losing the Anvil, really.

[blauregen]

Hmm. I don't trust my own governement with this thing. I certainly don't trust the dwarfes with it. Do I trust the leadership of a rather singleminded order, i was forcibly recruited into with it, based on my experience with one stab-happy recruiter, an insecure ex-templar ( as cute as he is ) and some old tales about griffons?

[ZiffyHead]

The Angry One wrote...

If you call the Anvil evil you might as well call the Joining evil.
While the latter isn't as extreme, it's still a death sentence, and it's still becoming part of the darkspawn, in a sense.

In an ideal world the Anvil wouldn't be needed, but this is a world where darkspawn infest the old dwarven kingdoms even when there is no Blight.
While the process itself is horrific, those who wish to sacrifice themselves to become Golems should have the right to do it, and destroying it is a huge disservice to the people who already chose to make that sacrifice.

The joining itself is most certainly evil, as it essentially requires taking a life to perform. Unlike a gun, the joining can never be used without it causing harm. One can certainly perform an act of heroic self-sacrifice by making an informed decision to give their own life in the joining to save others, but the joining itself still “performs an evil act” by taking the life of the hero.
 
I believe that the wardens are actually more black than gray, but that is not surprising, considering that they are “tainted” with demon blood. The fact that they choose to hide this information and continue to deceive people, instead of “coming clean” and being up front, only adds to their “darkness”.
 
The wardens are in the very least “tainted fanatics”, justifying their actions by considering it an act of “self sacrifice” for the good of all. Unfortunately, true “self sacrifice” requires one to be aware of the dangers before making a choice and in their secrecy the wardens have only cheapened the sacrifices made by them all.
 
Perhaps the first wardens knew the danger going into it, but they then chose to hide this information from all of the following recruits and thus did them all a great injustice. The wardens have decided to “sacrifice others without their knowledge”, thus removing the possibility of “self sacrifice” from the equation and instead turned them into victims.
 
Making an informed decision to sacrifice one’s own life to save others is an act of heroism, while being forced to do so is not. 

Modifié par ZiffyHead, 05 décembre 2009 - 11:54 .

[cglasgow]

On the other hand, the first Blight lasted for 90 years before the Joining was discovered and the archdemon finally slain. Their first recruits would literally have grown up knowing nothing else but the verge of human extinction.



It would be much, much harder to get sufficient recruits to maintain the Grey Wardens during times of peace. And yet the Grey Wardens must continue to exist, or else the next archdemon will slay all that lives. That means more than just leaving behind a few caretakers down the generations. It means maintaining the organization with sufficient strength that no conceivable catastrophe can make it cease to exist.



And if that means press ganging people, that is exactly what the Grey Wardens will do.



And yes, it is morally wrong. The only thing that makes it even remotely justifiable is that the stakes are literally the continued survival of the race. Failing = eventual death for all that lives. That explains the grimness of the Grey Wardens.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Leaving the anvil to the Legion of the dead would have been the most rational thing to do, but we lack that option.

[blauregen]

And yes, it is morally wrong. The only thing that makes it even remotely justifiable is that the stakes are literally the continued survival of the race. Failing = eventual death for all that lives. That explains the grimness of the Grey Wardens.

Admittedly. But giving the grey wardens the anvil would change the dynamics. As it is the grey wardens are a small order of elite fighters with a little mystery around. A single gray warden commands respect due to the legends, and inspires the troops, but ultimately it is one man or one woman and no threat to anyone but an archdemon.

A company of 200 orlesian grey wardens under Riordan is impressive, but your standing army will likely be able to contain them, should they become pesky and try anything besides fighting the blight. A company of 200 10-meter-steel-golems, impervious to most weapons you could bring to the field and each capable of singlehandedly demolishing a village, would be cause for serious concern and likely seen as a danger similar to a wild running and malicious abomination.

Imagine Duncan representing the grey wardens in 10 meter steel with a warcry of 'DUNCAN SMASH!!!!'

[B33ker]

I side with Caradin all the time.



I've got werewolves, I don't need no stinking golems other than Shale.



Seriously, look at how messed up Branka is mentally, even Ohgren says so, and he ought to know.

[johnbgardner]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

eschilde wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I didn't like Branka as a person, but to destroy the anvil is not something any sensible Grey Warden or Dwarf would do.

I don't agree. DA does a great job of giving you the ability to make choices, and that's for a reason. You can choose to take the moral high ground or the most efficient route. Not saying one is better than the other, depending on what kind of character/personality you're playing. Archdemon still dies in the end.

That's from an out universe perspective. We don't even need allies that much anyhow. Regardless of what we do, the archdemon dies.

But in-universe, if a Grey Warden is confronted with two choices:
- Have the all mighty golems at his side
- Not have them.
He would obviously pick the first option. That's at least what the typical, examplary Grey Warden would do.
Duncan, who seems to be the ieal Grey Warden: "The blight must be stopped one way or the other. That's as far my opinion goes".

Firstly, it is clear that creating a golem is a form of blood magic, it requires a living soul to power the golem.  Volunteer or not, forcing the soul of a living being into an inanimate suit of metal is, to most people in Ferelden, inherently evil.
Secondly, can my character, as a Grey Warden, possibly foresee if a group of golems would be vital to defeaing the Archdemon?  Roleplaying just about any Origin, even evil, I cannot help but think that even if the golems help defeat the Archdemon, what then?  Can giving the dwarves access to that kind of power possibly be a good idea?  What is to stop Bhelen from creating a golem army?  Hmmm...what would a power-mad tyrant possibly do with such an army?  Harrowmont might not use them against the surface world, but who's to say how long he would stay in power?  To me, the king of the dwarves has a similar lifespan of a second lieutenant in Viet Nam.
Thirdly, granted the primary, and I repeat primary, concern of a Grey Warden is to defeat the Blight, he or she cannot ignore the effect his or her actions have upon the world.  By allowing a golem army to be created there is a good possibility that there will be nothing left of the world to save from the Blight.
Finally, saying that the Anvil itself is not inherently evil holds no water.  Sure, a gun is not evil, but would you allow a homicidal maniac access to one?  Giving Branka access to the Anvil is exactly that.  She has a control rod, so she either found one or can make one, she is a master smith after all, as good or better than Cairidin.  As I understood the Codex, there is no way to create a golem without powering it by a living being.  Branka had no problem sacrificing her whole house to create darkspawn simply to throw against the traps leading to the Anvil.  Once she obtained the Anvil I wonder exactly which living beings she would use to create golems?  She has the means to create darkspawn, so wouldn't she use them to make her golems?    Heh, I could just see a scenarion in which she teaches an apprentice to make the golems but is killed somehow before revealing the secret of the control rods....  Voila!  an army of nearly unstoppable darkspawn golems.  Not a pretty thought.

[Krigwin]

The Angry One wrote...

If you call the Anvil evil you might as well call the Joining evil.
While the latter isn't as extreme, it's still a death sentence, and it's still becoming part of the darkspawn, in a sense.

In an ideal world the Anvil wouldn't be needed, but this is a world where darkspawn infest the old dwarven kingdoms even when there is no Blight.
While the process itself is horrific, those who wish to sacrifice themselves to become Golems should have the right to do it, and destroying it is a huge disservice to the people who already chose to make that sacrifice.

Being born is a death sentence. After all, everyone's going to die. Your character was going to die eventually, and indeed in many (all?) of the Origins would already be dead if not for Duncan. The Joining doesn't ensure your death - your death was already certain, it just gives you a time frame. A pretty generous time frame if I might add, even for modern times. Many people do not even live to be the age of 30.

The difference between the Joining and using the Anvil is that in the latter you are actively ending someone's life. It's murder, or assisted suicide at best. Add on the possibility of exploitation and it's a tool of pure evil. You can argue that people should have the right to kill themselves and I would argue that sometimes people have to be protected from themselves for their own good (an opinion my bro, Oghren, also shares!), but that would be opening up a different can of worms. As for the "huge disservice" part, are you referring to the innocent people who were conscripted and then golem-ized (again, murdered) against their will by the mad king of Caridin's time (including Caridin himself)?

I can't find my post on another topic on this very subject (off topic is there some way to look through your own posts?) but it went something like this:

The reason the dwarves lost so much land to the Darkspawn was because they lacked military might. Golems are only one way to make up this lost might. There are other ways for the dwarves to reclaim their empires - a dwarven PC asking Alistair for human assistance, for instance. Your choice is never between handing over the Anvil to Branka, or watch the Darkspawn annihilate all the dwarves. You are only told this is the choice by Branka, who is crazy. No matter what anyone thinks of the Anvil, I do not see how anyone can possibly think handing over the Anvil to Branka is a good idea. Bhelen or the dwarven PC or the Legion of the Dead would make far better use of it.

Or if you want to look at it another way: Caridin is the creator of the Anvil and thus has all rights to it. The only reason he has stuck around for so long is because he wishes to see it destroyed, an act that is physically impossible for him. By destroying the Anvil for him, you are releasing him from his torment and allowing him to move on. An act of mercy, if you will. Clearly the "good" choice is obvious.

[The Angry One]

Expecting the surface nations to help reclaim the dwarven empire when there's no Blight when they have never, ever, ever done so before is futile

Even Alistair will not be able to head up a war nobody cares about and nobody wants to fight. When there's no Blight, Orzammar is on it's own, and thus the Anvil is needed.



By the way it isn't strictly murder, it is possible for Golems to retain their personality; look at Caradin himself. Shale also, in a sense, her memory addled by some 5 centuries of inactivity.

[Mnemnosyne]

Krigwin wrote...

The reason the dwarves lost so much land to the Darkspawn was because they lacked military might. Golems are only one way to make up this lost might. There are other ways for the dwarves to reclaim their empires - a dwarven PC asking Alistair for human assistance, for instance. Your choice is never between handing over the Anvil to Branka, or watch the Darkspawn annihilate all the dwarves. You are only told this is the choice by Branka, who is crazy. No matter what anyone thinks of the Anvil, I do not see how anyone can possibly think handing over the Anvil to Branka is a good idea. Bhelen or the dwarven PC or the Legion of the Dead would make far better use of it.

That is the choice.  Anvil, or dwarves keep losing ground to the darkspawn.  Dwarven population growth is, we are told, below the rate of replacement.  Each year, more dwarves die than are born, most of them in battle against the darkspawn.  The deep roads stretch over the length and breadth of Thedas.  No one nation, not Ferelden, not Orlais, not the Tevinter Imperium or Antiva or Nevarra has the resources to help the dwarves take back the entirety of the deep roads even if they wanted to and were willing to commit all the resources of their nation to do it.  It would take a coalition of all nations fighting all-out war for decades in order to clean out the deep roads entirely.  That is a war that absolutely no one is willing to undertake.  It would be asking all the nations of the surface to commit themselves, their sons, and their grandsons to generations of unending warfare on foreign soil to retake and secure the fallen kingdoms of the dwarves.  Nothing the dwarves could give them, nothing they could gain in the deep roads is worth that cost to the people of the surface.

Even if the dwarves fight the darkspawn and win at a ratio of 1000:1 the darkspawn will still win the battle of attrition, because their method of reproduction is vastly more efficient than that of the dwarves, and produces far greater numbers.  They have effectively infinite numbers, given the size of the region they control.

And sure, it's more reasonable to give the anvil to someone else.  The Grey Wardens are probably the best choice, because they have been shown to use restraint, but also do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn.  But in-game we're not actually presented with that course of action.  Of the courses of action we are presented with, the only sane course of action is to not destroy it.

As for Caridin's rights to it, just because you own something does not necessarily mean you should be allowed to choose to destroy it.  All societies and peoples have laws and ideas that state that the good of the society must be held above some individual rights, with the only difference being how many individual rights the society chooses to sacrifice.  If I own all the food on an island of three hundred people, should I be allowed to destroy it - for any reason - thus dooming those people to starve to death?  If I own every weapon in a town that is going to be attacked tomorrow by those who will kill, butcher, and rape everyone in it and accept no surrender, should I be allowed to throw them all into the lake because I suddenly have an attack of conscience and think the price of using my weapons is too great, no matter what?  This is what Caridin is doing - he is taking away his people's only effective weapon, leaving them armed with the equivalent of sticks and stones against an implacable enemy that will never stop, never surrender, outnumbers them by an incredible ratio, and will only increase that outnumbering as time marches on.

[Krigwin]

The Angry One wrote...
Expecting the surface nations to help reclaim the dwarven empire when there's no Blight when they have never, ever, ever done so before is futile
Even Alistair will not be able to head up a war nobody cares about and nobody wants to fight. When there's no Blight, Orzammar is on it's own, and thus the Anvil is needed.

Wrong. Ask for human military aid as your boon from Alistair and the Darkspawn will be driven back into the Dead Trenches. You've braved two Thaigs (Aeducan Thaig and Cadash Thaig) in the game, you know more than anyone else (possibly more than even any Grey Warden to come before you) what there is to face in the Deep Roads. It's not tough, the only reason the dwarves can't do it is because they lack the numbers.

The dwarves aided the humans in defeating this Blight even though their agreement was centuries-old and Orzammar had problems of their own. They honored their oath and Ferelden would have no problem returning the favor, especially as you have so many rallied armies ready to go after the siege of Denerim. Spread the news that the Darkspawn do in fact still exist, and possible more Blights are to come, and not only will the Grey Wardens, themselves numbering in the thousands, come rushing to the aid of the dwarves, but I can't imagine the other human nations not doing the same. Even the Qunari, after Sten brings back information of what exactly a Blight is and what the Darkspawn are capable of.

By the way it isn't strictly murder, it is possible for Golems to retain their personality; look at Caradin himself. Shale also, in a sense, her memory addled by some 5 centuries of inactivity.

Caridin retained his memories because at the time of his golem-ization he was the only smith who knew how to craft control rods. Shale reclaimed her sentience and gained some semblence of her memories because her control rod was irreparably damaged. All the other golems you see are mindless automatons, and there is no reason to believe they would all get their memories back if their control rods were destroyed.

And, I wouldn't agree that living as a golem is "life". Caridin grew to despise his existence and I imagine living that long, especially being unable to enjoy the pleasures of life as a human can, is a whole new league of torment, there's enough suffering for just a normal human lifespan thank you very much. Indeed Shale's goal in the end, even after all her vaunted speeches on the superiority of being a nigh-indestructible rock being and reclaiming her sentience, is to reverse the transformation and become mortal once more.

Koyasha wrote...
That is the choice....

No, it's not. Again, with human aid the dwarves can reclaim much of their lost land. Why would the humans help the dwarves you ask? Maybe because their enemy is a relentless horde that seeks to eradicate all life on the planet and once the dwarves are all dead, they'll mass in even greater numbers and then form an unstoppable Blight? Maybe because these very same dwarves just helped to save Ferelden from that horrible fate?

Consider that, at the time of the game, Orzammar, the only Thaig that is having any sort of communication with the surface, is not exactly asking for help. Consider that all the human nations believe that the Darkspawn threat is ended, having been fed propaganda that the previous Blight was the "final" one - only the Grey Wardens know the truth, and they cannot reveal it because without keeping the reason for why Grey Wardens are needed (Archdemon thing) a secret, their organization would surely no longer exist.

And sure, it's more reasonable to give the anvil to someone else...

But that is the choice we're given. Destroy the Anvil, which is not needed for a happy ending for the dwarves, or hand it over to Branka, which results in a bad ending regardless of who is made King. She is completely insane and handing the Anvil over to her does not result in some kind of golden age where the dwarves eradicate the Darkspawn and live happily ever drinking ale and farting. It results in terrifyingly bad situations where Branka becomes increasingly isolationist and eventually severs ties from the rest of dwarvenkind altogether, only now she has an unstoppable army of mindless golems at her command.

But you bring up a good point about the battle of attrition. Why is it that the dwarves are so hopelessly outnumbered? It could be because of the Brood Mother method of reproduction, that is certainly true. But then again, the Darkspawn do not go to the surface except in the case of a Blight, so where would they be getting these female victims from? Their only source would be the dwarves, and unless they were plopping out Brood Mothers by the dozen, they wouldn't have enough to breed such a massive army to outnumber all of Orzammar.

Consider that the only Brood Mother you encounter in the game is the result of Branka leading her house deep into the Deep Roads, and then willingly abandoning them to the Darkspawn. Otherwise, the only dwarves that go into the Deep Roads are warriors, which are all male. Consider that, without an Archdemon to command them and form the powerful synaptic hive mind that guides a Blight, the Darkspawn war amongst each other endlessly, just like Orcs, or demons, or any other faction of mindless beasts from fantasy.

No, I believe the real reason the dwarves are so outnumbered is because of their caste system, which limits the size of their armies. Dissolving the castes and conscripting warriors to fight the Darkspawn, which is very similar to what Bhelen does, would be more than enough to not only defend Orzammar but also branch out and reclaim lost territory. It sounds bad at first, but then you remember the alternative is extinction. The dwarves were getting too fat and lazy relying on their golems to do all the work, that's why when the Anvil was lost they lost ground so quickly. Only the Legion of the Dead has any real idea of how to fight the Darkspawn, and you hear it yourself from Kardol - they are bound by tradition to follow the lead of Orzammar's King, and Orzammar's Kings have been content to... pretty much do nothing and have a generally defeatist attitude about the Darkspawn.

As for Caridin's rights to it, just because you own something does not
necessarily mean you should be allowed to choose to destroy it...

In the case of seizing control of assets held by a person, only the courts, or really society, is allowed to do so. This is not what's happening with Caridin and Branka. You have two people here, the first is Branka, who is believed to be dead by the majority of Orzammar and indeed the only reason she still has any Paragon power left is because she comes back to Orzammar with you and has the full backing of the Grey Wardens, and she bears the Anvil which gives her no end of influence.

The second is your character, and you're either not even a dwarf, or you're casteless. Neither of you are fit to represent society, and with the Assembly in disarray and no King in sight, no one has the real authority to make a decision like this. And even if you disagree, you're not even handing over the Anvil to society - you're handing it over to Branka. And even if you still disagree with that, you're not seizing food from some greedy farmer or something, you're taking the Anvil from not just any Paragon, but the most important Paragon in all of dwarven history, who has made revolutionary contributions to society and was much more powerful in his day than Branka ever was, and in order to do so in fact you have to kill him.

Also,

This is what Caridin is doing - he is taking away his people's only effective weapon

Wrong. The weapon has already been taken away, and has been for centuries. Indeed no one even believes it still exists at the time of the game, except for Branka. You make it sound as if Caridin is actively rooting for the dwarves to fail, when really he has been long forgotten and the dwarves have moved on without him.


If you were somehow able to keep the Anvil around, but ensure that is used only for good, only to create soldiers to fight the Darkspawn, then this would be a tough choice, because while it is still a tool of evil, you'd be serving the greater good. But there is no such option. You have to hand it over to Branka, a psychotic megalomaniac who has already proven she has no qualms with sending her own kind off to the slaughterhouse. Branka is obsessed, her own husband tells you she has become increasingly unstable and possibly insane, and at the time you meet her she is legally dead with no real power amongst the dwarves. Once she gets it she even starts kidnapping people to use on the Anvil!

And in order to do this, you have to kill Caridin - a hero, who only tried to help his people. You have to murder him (and Shale) in order to keep the Anvil. You're committing an act of evil, to save a tool of evil, in order to hand it over to someone who could be called evil. Yeah, I can totally see the moral ambiguity there alright.

[cglasgow]

Note that if you kill Branka and destroy the Anvil, the combined artificers of Orzammar aren't really able to do anything with the pieces of the anvil except have themselves some spectacular, demon-infested failures.



So the idea of 'give the anvil to the Grey Wardens' is moot. Without a dwarven Paragon artificer, the most you could do with it is find a new and novel way to blow yourself up. The only two minds in the game capable of making the damn thing work without an instruction manual are Caridin and Branka... and Caridin won't do it, or teach anyone else how to do it, and Maker knows he's already burned all the copies of the manual.



Unless you are willing to make a deal with Branka -- who is, let us remember, an obsessed kin-slaying completely untrustworthy psychopath -- you cannot use the Anvil of the Void. And Branka would like heck support giving the Anvil to surfacers anyway.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Siding with Branka seems to me to be the obvious choice.

An army of golems will help defeat the darkspawn. That's an unequivocal good.

Yes, for the time being, we might be putting a crazy person in charge (that's not made entirely clear at the time the choice is being made), but that's a problem we can solve later. Destroying the anvil is an irrevocable decision, and thus one I wouldn't take lightly.

My first time through, I was quick to choose to keep the anvil. I also didn't see why Shale objected and fought with me. She was a volunteer. Surely a volunteer could see the value of the anvil, especially a volunteer who didn't remember the apparently unpleasant experience of being forged.

I do have a character already started would easily choose to destroy the anvil (she'd see the golems as a slave race, and as an elf she'd sympathize), but my ruthlessly efficient human mage would pick Branka over Caridin every time.