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[Sylvius the Mad]

cglasgow wrote...

Note that if you kill Branka and destroy the Anvil, the combined artificers of Orzammar aren't really able to do anything with the pieces of the anvil except have themselves some spectacular, demon-infested failures.

Of course, this isn't known to the PC at the time of the decision, so it can't possibly play a role in that decision.

[Original182]

The Anvil is clearly evil blood magic based on the account of the creator himself, Caridin. He could feel the agony of the volunteers, and because it was too much, he refused his king's orders. The king then put Caradin on the anvil, and it took him feeling the hammer's blows to realize the evil.

Morrigan, as typical of her quest to gain power, also wanted to keep the anvil. But with my high coercion, I asked her whether she would like to be made a golem. That put her in her place, and she didn't even dare give me the "Morrigan disapproves".

Oghren the drunk could also see the evils of the anvil, trying to reason with Branka and show her that it has driven her mad.

If you side with Branka, with a high persuade check, you can make Branka realize how evil the anvil is. Branka could hear voices, because they are the voices of the souls trapped in the anvil. That's right, the anvil actually traps the souls of the golems. Eventually Branka also committed suicide once she "woke up".

The anvil is evil and is one of the worst forms of blood magic. Whether people want to keep the anvil or not is their choice. But you cannot argue that it is not evil. It clearly is.

Modifié par Original182, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Krigwin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Expecting the surface nations to help reclaim the dwarven empire when there's no Blight when they have never, ever, ever done so before is futile
Even Alistair will not be able to head up a war nobody cares about and nobody wants to fight. When there's no Blight, Orzammar is on it's own, and thus the Anvil is needed.

Wrong. Ask for human military aid as your boon from Alistair and the Darkspawn will be driven back into the Dead Trenches. You've braved two Thaigs (Aeducan Thaig and Cadash Thaig) in the game, you know more than anyone else (possibly more than even any Grey Warden to come before you) what there is to face in the Deep Roads. It's not tough, the only reason the dwarves can't do it is because they lack the numbers.

The dwarves aided the humans in defeating this Blight even though their agreement was centuries-old and Orzammar had problems of their own. They honored their oath and Ferelden would have no problem returning the favor, especially as you have so many rallied armies ready to go after the siege of Denerim. Spread the news that the Darkspawn do in fact still exist, and possible more Blights are to come, and not only will the Grey Wardens, themselves numbering in the thousands, come rushing to the aid of the dwarves, but I can't imagine the other human nations not doing the same. Even the Qunari, after Sten brings back information of what exactly a Blight is and what the Darkspawn are capable of.

First off, I've got to start by reminding everyone that the dwarven kingdoms and the deep roads extend the entire length and breadth of the continent.  The distance to the dead trenches is miniscule compared to the entirety of Thedas, and retaking that tiny portion of the deep roads is insignificant as far as the whole of the continent goes.  It is like saying that if the entirety of the United States was overrun by enemy forces, with the exception of Los Angeles (Kal Sharok) and New York City (Orzammar), that securing the vast distance between New York and Trenton, New Jersey (Bownammar), was "much" of the lost territory.  Even if we went as far as Philadelphia, I don't think it would be that significant.

Furthermore, you are arguing from a position of utter fantasy that exists only in your imagination, it seems.  Do you believe the Grey Wardens, who send their people to Orzammar to die fighting darkspawn in the deep roads, are unaware that there are darkspawn in the deep roads?  Do you really think that after the last Blight was defeated, four hundred years ago, the surface nations simply did not know that there were more darkspawn in the deep roads?  Everyone knows damn well the deep roads are full of darkspawn.  And one of the early dialogue options as a mage sums up the attitude on that entirely: "Darkspawn are a dwarven problem."  Do you really believe the surface nations could be convinced to commit themselves to a decades or possibly even centuries-long war effort in order to secure the entirety of the deep roads and wipe out the darkspawn once and for all, when they do not feel threatened in the slightest?

Furthermore you behave as though the recent fight in Ferelden will spur the nations to action as though it presents the darkspawn as a major threat, when in point of fact it does quite the opposite.  To quote Alistair, "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a blight without the army of a dozen nations at their back."  From what we understand, the last four Blights spanned much of the continent, and every nation in Thedas was threatened.  This time, the Blight was defeated with most nations barely even becoming aware of it.  If anything, this is an indication to other nations that darkspawn and blights are nowhere near as threatening as the legends made them seem, a problem easily dealt with if you don't also have a civil war going at the same time.  And certainly not a problem that requires committing massive military force over generations in order to root out of their nests for the sake of the dwarves.

But you bring up a good point about the battle of attrition. Why is it that the dwarves are so hopelessly outnumbered? It could be because of the Brood Mother method of reproduction, that is certainly true. But then again, the Darkspawn do not go to the surface except in the case of a Blight, so where would they be getting these female victims from? Their only source would be the dwarves, and unless they were plopping out Brood Mothers by the dozen, they wouldn't have enough to breed such a massive army to outnumber all of Orzammar.

Consider that the only Brood Mother you encounter in the game is the result of Branka leading her house deep into the Deep Roads, and then willingly abandoning them to the Darkspawn. Otherwise, the only dwarves that go into the Deep Roads are warriors, which are all male. Consider that, without an Archdemon to command them and form the powerful synaptic hive mind that guides a Blight, the Darkspawn war amongst each other endlessly, just like Orcs, or demons, or any other faction of mindless beasts from fantasy.

No, I believe the real reason the dwarves are so outnumbered is because of their caste system, which limits the size of their armies. Dissolving the castes and conscripting warriors to fight the Darkspawn, which is very similar to what Bhelen does, would be more than enough to not only defend Orzammar but also branch out and reclaim lost territory. It sounds bad at first, but then you remember the alternative is extinction. The dwarves were getting too fat and lazy relying on their golems to do all the work, that's why when the Anvil was lost they lost ground so quickly. Only the Legion of the Dead has any real idea of how to fight the Darkspawn, and you hear it yourself from Kardol - they are bound by tradition to follow the lead of Orzammar's King, and Orzammar's Kings have been content to... pretty much do nothing and have a generally defeatist attitude about the Darkspawn.

Darkspawn are known to raid the surface in ragtag bands.  This is clearly stated quite often in the early stages of the game.  Their reason for doing so is rather clear, considering their method of reproduction.  Dwarves are not their only source of females to make broodmothers with.  And dwarves do have female warriors, or did you miss, say, the story of Astyth the Grey, who fought for the right of females to be warriors, and wound up inspiring an entire order of Silent Sisters?

The second is your character, and you're either not even a dwarf, or you're casteless. Neither of you are fit to represent society, and with the Assembly in disarray and no King in sight, no one has the real authority to make a decision like this. And even if you disagree, you're not even handing over the Anvil to society - you're handing it over to Branka. And even if you still disagree with that, you're not seizing food from some greedy farmer or something, you're taking the Anvil from not just any Paragon, but the most important Paragon in all of dwarven history, who has made revolutionary contributions to society and was much more powerful in his day than Branka ever was, and in order to do so in fact you have to kill him.

Branka and Caridin are both Paragons, and therefore equal as far as dwarven society goes.  Caridin himself notes that he made many things in his time, but the one he was made a Paragon for and the only one that he is remembered for is the Anvil.  Which he now wants to destroy.  Indeed, if he's going to destroy the reason he was made a Paragon, shouldn't that sort of...I don't know...nullify his Paragon-hood?  Cause he was made a Paragon cause he invented the Anvil and gave the dwarves golems, not for any other reason.

But none of that really matters, because Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary to defeat the darkspawn, and the Anvil can help in that goal.

Wrong. The weapon has already been taken away, and has been for centuries. Indeed no one even believes it still exists at the time of the game, except for Branka. You make it sound as if Caridin is actively rooting for the dwarves to fail, when really he has been long forgotten and the dwarves have moved on without him.

Ok, he took away their only effective weapon, past tense.  Rest is still entirely applicable.  The dwarves moved on without him because they felt they had no choice.  Branka was the only one driven (crazy?) enough to go after the Anvil, realizing that without it, they were doomed in the long term.

If you were somehow able to keep the Anvil around, but ensure that is used only for good, only to create soldiers to fight the Darkspawn, then this would be a tough choice, because while it is still a tool of evil, you'd be serving the greater good. But there is no such option. You have to hand it over to Branka, a psychotic megalomaniac who has already proven she has no qualms with sending her own kind off to the slaughterhouse. Branka is obsessed, her own husband tells you she has become increasingly unstable and possibly insane, and at the time you meet her she is legally dead with no real power amongst the dwarves. Once she gets it she even starts kidnapping people to use on the Anvil!

And in order to do this, you have to kill Caridin - a hero, who only tried to help his people. You have to murder him (and Shale) in order to keep the Anvil. You're committing an act of evil, to save a tool of evil, in order to hand it over to someone who could be called evil. Yeah, I can totally see the moral ambiguity there alright.

But what is she obsessed with?  Defeating the darkspawn!  Therefore, any means necessary still applies.

And while Caridin tried to help his people, he also turned around and rescinded that help when he decided it wasn't being done exactly the way his delicate sensibilities wanted.

Moral ambiguity is irrelevant.  Is keeping the anvil "evil?"  It doesn't matter.  It only matters that it is an effective tool to construct weapons against the darkspawn.  No sacrifice is too great in order to accomplish that goal, including the eternal enslavement of countless tens or hundreds of thousands, or even more, to construct the golem force needed to achieve ultimate victory.

[Krigwin]

Koyasha wrote...

First off, I've got to start by reminding everyone that the dwarven kingdoms and the deep roads extend the entire length and breadth of the continent...

Alright, it's time to get geographical on this *****.

Where are you drawing these distance approximations from? I don't recall the game giving you solid measures of distance so I'm forced to merely guess that underground you travel really, really far and it just doesn't feel like it because you're fast traveling from the world map to each destination.

I remember distinctly being told there are thirteen great Thaigs, but I could be wrong. I don't recall the game telling you Orzammar and Kal-Sharok are at opposite ends either, and the distance between Orzammar and the Dead Trenches seems to be pretty vast. In the game you visit 3 Thaigs between the Dead Trenches and Orzammar - Cadash, Aeducan, and Ortan. Either you travel a great further distance underground than it seems, or the Thaigs just aren't that far apart.

In any case, the dwarves of Orzammar, with only the help of the scattered armies of Ferelden, which if you'll remember is just recovering from the Blight and civil war, is able to push to the Dead Trenches. Given time and enough aid it's not ludicrous to believe they can reclaim a great majority of their territory. Remember their goal is not even to go looking for and eradicate the Darkspawn completely, only to reclaim their Thaigs and clear the parts of the Deep Roads necessary to maintain routes of travel between them.

Furthermore, you are arguing from a position of utter fantasy that exists only in your imagination, it seems...

Incorrect. I worded that wrong but the surface nations don't believe that the Darkspawn are gone, they believe that the Darkspawn are no longer a threat, because there will be no more Blights. But this isn't true and the Blight of the game is evidence of that. They leave the Darkspawn to the dwarves to deal with because without a Blight, the Darkspawn do not swarm the surface. Remember that most people have been told that the fourth and previous Blight was the final one. The existence of the Blight in the game is evidence to the contrary.

And there is a vast difference between the Grey Wardens occasionally forming raids in the Deep Roads like they have been doing in the game, and the Grey Wardens assisting in a unified army to fight in the Deep Roads. They know of the Darkspawn threat but have never had any real aid in wiping them out in the Roads. This would change if they had the might of the dwarven nations, as well as possible surface aid, and would give them a solid opportunity to form a real force to cleanse the Deep Roads.

Furthermore you behave as though the recent fight in Ferelden will spur the nations to action as though it presents the darkspawn as a major threat, when in point of fact it does quite the opposite...

You're welcome to look at it that way, but I look at it like this: a Blight in its infant stages was enough to bring Denerim to ruin as well as raze much of Ferelden, and part of the reason for that was because the Grey Wardens' warning was unheeded. Seems like it would thus be prudent to believe in the Wardens from now on, wouldn't it? Again, remember that at the time of the game everyone thought another Blight would be impossible and the Grey Wardens a relic of the past, no longer needed.

Darkspawn are known to raid the surface in ragtag bands...

I forgot about that at the time of my writing. But still, given the incessant infighting that is the Darkspawns' nature, I don't really think their population is exactly growing. Especially with the Deep Roads sealed off. I'm just saying the outnumbering problem really isn't as outrageous as you are making it sound, particularly as the majority of the horde is made up of weak, mindless Darkspawn that fight with no semblence of strategy. I think the problem lies with the dwarves' reliance on the Warrior Caste.

Branka and Caridin are both Paragons, and therefore equal as far as dwarven society goes...

My point was that no one, least of all you or Branka, has the authority to seize the Anvil from Caridin. Wanting to destroy the Anvil or not, he is still a respected Paragon in the eyes of Orzammar and taking the Anvil by force, as well as killing him, is an unlawful and evil act.

Ok, he took away their only effective weapon, past tense...

I prefer crazy.

But again, you are arguing from the position that the Anvil is the only possible way, in a theoretical universe of magic and crazy dwarven technology and warriors that can spurt poisoned blood from their wrists to stun enemies, to help the dwarves, despite ingame evidence to the contrary.

It's crazy. What if the human nations really did an about-face after DA:O's Blight and said "Hey, maybe we should help the dwarves after all!". What if the Grey Wardens decided to unite as an army and sweep the Roads? What if some new Paragon twenty years down the line invents the world's first steam-operated battle tank? 

You are only told, by Branka no less, that destroying the Anvil will lead to ruin for the dwarves. Yet it's possible for Orzammar to enter a new golden age by the end of the game without the Anvil. Not being able to sweep the Deep Roads and reclaim all of their Thaigs is one thing, just because the dwarves can't do that doesn't mean they can't defend the neighboring Roads, claim some nearby Thaigs, and defend Orzammar, creating a new era of peace and prosperity.

You're making it sound as if the dwarves are facing extinction with an endless horde of single-minded Darkspawn trying to invade Orzammar, when really Orzammar has been well-defended for quite some time, and the only real problems they're having are political ones, not military ones. The danger they're facing is stagnation, not annihilation.

And while Caridin tried to help his people, he also turned around and rescinded that help when he decided it wasn't being done exactly the way his delicate sensibilities wanted.

Yeah, it's crazy how your loyalties can change when your leader goes off the edge and has random innocents rounded up and killed to form his unstoppable army, as well as having you killed and your soul imprisoned in a steel prison.

But none of that really matters, because Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary to defeat the darkspawn, and the Anvil can help in that goal.
...
But what is she obsessed with?  Defeating the darkspawn!  Therefore, any means necessary still applies.
...
Moral ambiguity is irrelevant.  Is keeping the anvil "evil?"  It doesn't matter.  It only matters that it is an effective tool to construct weapons against the darkspawn.  No sacrifice is too great in order to accomplish that goal, including the eternal enslavement of countless tens or hundreds of thousands, or even more, to construct the golem force needed to achieve ultimate victory.

Alright, I saved this for last because all of these points can be met with the same argument.

Keeping the Anvil around is indeed the practical choice. It can be used to create the perfect army to face down an unstoppable evil, and the sacrifices of all of those who made the choice to become golems, or were just straight up made golems anyways against their will, would be worth it if the Darkspawn were truly annihilated.

However, this is not the case. It's not the Grey Wardens who will be using this Anvil. It's Branka, who is untrustworthy to put it lightly. You have no assurances that the Anvil, in Branka's care, will be used to create an army to lead the dwarves back to dominance in the Deep Roads, and indeed that happens in none of the endings. You have no assurances that the Anvil will only be used to create golems for the sole purpose of fighting Darkspawn, nor do you have assurances that it will be used for this purpose at all. You have no evidence and no reason at all to suggest that handing the Anvil over to Branka will eradicate the Darkspawn - remember originally the golems were used defensively to defend the Thaigs, they were never meant as some kind of offensive unit.

You have no idea what will happen to the Anvil in the event of Branka's inevitable death. You have no idea what Branka plans with the Anvil. You have no idea what will happen to the Anvil if indeed one day all the Darkspawn are gone and it's back to a golden age for the dwarven race. In fact, the only thing you can count on is Branka's token force of golems to help you with the final fight against the Archdemon, and that could just be her idea of a reward for helping her obtain the Anvil.

Your entire "Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary to defeat Darkspawn and the Anvil is what's necessary!" argument hinges on the most basic assumption that the Anvil of the Void will be used, in true Grey Warden fashion, to fight the Darkspawn and in the process aid the dwarves, but sadly there is no evidence at all to support this assumption. Branka is insane and it's questionable what her motives are, or even whether she is mentally stable enough to stick to those motives, and you have no real control over the Anvil once you hand it over. For all we know, one possible scenario is that one day Branka goes straight off the edge and commits suicide after sealing off all access to the Anvil, making it lost again, only this time forever because with her the secrets of how to operate the Anvil die as well.

Let me state this again, as clearly as I can. The choice you are given in the game is this: Destroy the Anvil, fulfilling Caridin's last wish and ensuring it can never be used for evil again, or, hand it over to a psychotic megalomanic kinslaying loon who has just spent the past two years of her life watching members of her own house get transformed into hideous beasts. Not "use the Anvil to annihilate the Darkspawn entirely leading to an ultimate victory for the Grey Wardens".

[Behindyounow]

Having some metal monsters and squishy midgets helping you in the battle, as opposed to just squishy midgets helping you.



Tough choice.

[Mnemnosyne]

Krigwin wrote...

Alright, I saved this for last because all of these points can be met with the same argument.

Keeping the Anvil around is indeed the practical choice. It can be used to create the perfect army to face down an unstoppable evil, and the sacrifices of all of those who made the choice to become golems, or were just straight up made golems anyways against their will, would be worth it if the Darkspawn were truly annihilated.

....

These final points are excellent, and this is an argument I can understand and to a point even get behind.  But in the end it seems like a much better idea to keep the anvil in existence, rather than destroy it, thus ending any chance of it ever being used to defeat the darkspawn.  So yes, maybe Branka won't use it to defeat the darkspawn after all, even if that is her current goal.  But as you said, Branka's eventual death is inevitable (unless she herself gets made a golem, I suppose) which means that as long as the anvil exists, there is the possibility that it could be put to use in order to destroy the darkspawn forever.  Destroying it removes that possibility forever, or at least until someone invents such a device once again.

It's also never stated that only Branka or Caridin could possibly make golems with the anvil - infact it's pretty clear that's not the case, because Caridin couldn't have (and presumably wouldn't have) golem-ized himself.  It is stated that Caridin is the only one who knew how to make golems in his time (which is clearly false unless he intentionally turned himself into one, which certainly did not sound like the case) but given the reasonable assumption that he did not allow anyone to ever study it, it's hardly surprising that he was the only one who knew its function.  It's functionality can't possibly be that impossible to decipher, considering Branka was operating it within a short period of first interacting with it.  Furthermore, Branka herself believes others could find it and put it to use - the journal she leaves behind in Ortan Thaig has mentions of hoping that, if she and her entire house are killed, that someone else will still 'walk over my corpse' if I remember the wording correctly, and reclaim the Anvil.  So clearly - and notably, back when she wasn't quite so obsessed - she didn't think that she was the only one who could possibly operate it.

As to the earlier points of distance, it's true that I don't know that my distance comparisons are accurate, but either way it's quite clear that the dead trenches are not far from Orzammar.  Why?  Because of the timing.  If you are doing the quest for Harrowmont, he states that Bhelen is forcing a vote within the next two days.  That means that the entire distance from Orzammar to the Anvil of the Void cannot encompass more than one day of travel time, leaving one day to return and arrive just in time during the vote.  And this is considering that you are fighting darkspawn for much of the journey.  Under conditions where the deep roads are safe to travel and the most direct routes are available, it's logical to presume the journey from Orzammar to the Anvil would take less than a day.

As for the thirteen Great Thaigs, it should be noted that there's apparently a difference between a 'Great Thaig' and just a Thaig.  Asking for explanations of the term Thaig from various NPC's brings up the fact that they are like colonies.  When asked if there was a city here, Oghren comments that there was not, there was a Thaig.  Thaigs like the Aeducan Thaig or the Ortan Thaig seem to be the dwarven equivalent of villages near the main city, each constructed and owned by a clan.  Great Thaigs seem to be the main cities, such as Orzammar and Kal Sharok.

Now I will admit that it might be possible for the dwarves to make some limited headway without the Anvil, maybe even reclaim a small amount of the area around Orzammar.  But they can't make very much headway in the larger picture because of distances involved.  How come the dwarves got defeated so easily when the darkspawn first came forth?  I doubt it was because they were unprepared for war, although that might be possible.  But looking at their system of cities and transportation from a military perspective, they have all these tunnels connecting their cities, and they're fighting an enemy which apparently has the power to burrow quite effectively, thus breaching the tunnels at random locations.  Without being able to staff significant guard posts every mile or two of the deep roads (which is impossible, considering the numbers of people it would take just standing around at these guard posts on a constant basis) they can easily get swarmed even without any sense of strategy from their opponents.  Only golems can stand watch, never drinking, eating, or sleeping, without needing constant supplies, without needing to be paid.

The surface nations weren't told that the previous Blight was the final one.  People eventually came to believe that because the last one was so devastating, and so many darkspawn were slain during it, that they figured they must be defeated for good.  Obviously those that were actually in positions of power were aware the darkspawn had merely been driven back, but they couldn't chase them into the deep roads even if they wanted to, because the population would never put up with that kind of war effort.  You seem to want to believe that people would be willing to set aside their politics and go after the darkspawn because everyone will acknowledge the threat that they are, but such has not been the case in the previous four blights.  If a blight provides such great motivation for nations to band together and go clear the darkspawn out of the deep roads to help the dwarves and make sure they never come back, why have they not done so after the previous four archdemons were defeated?  People are not willing to put up with war of that magnitude without a clear threat.  Within ten, fifteen years at most, both soldiers and peasants would be ready to revolt if their rulers demanded they continue going to a war far from home and fighting, not to conquer, not to defend, but against a potential threat that has never touched their homelands in any significant strength.  One has merely to look at real-world examples of wars fought far from home for purposes that are unclear to the civilian population to see that rebellion would eventually come to any nation that tried to commit its troops to such an effort for too long.  Not that any of the surface rulers are likely to commit to that operation for long either.  Unless the darkspawn are in their faces, razing their fields and killing their families, people as a whole are inclined to ignore them until they raise their ugly heads again.  Such has been the case for five Blights, such will be the case in the future, miracles notwithstanding.

In the end, there is no reasonable prospect of ever hunting down and exterminating the darkspawn forever, without some force like golems.  There's too much ground to patrol and secure and keep secure for a living army.  There's too many potential angles of attack, since the darkspawn can burrow through the walls of the tunnels, attacking at their discretion.  If the Anvil isn't used for good purposes by Branka, at least it still exists and could be used eventually.  If it is destroyed, there's no telling if something with as much potential as it has for being the ultimate weapon to defeat the darkspawn will ever be constructed again.  Perhaps something else would be invented, someday, and it wouldn't require as much sacrifice.  Or perhaps it would never happen, the darkspawn would eventually out-breed the dwarves, wipe out the final two cities, then push onto the surface in large numbers even without an Archdemon.  There's no way to know which would happen, and in the absence of the knowledge that another weapon of similar effectiveness would ever be invented, it's better to keep the one that exists intact, even if it is, for now, in the hands of a lunatic.

[Apophis2412]

Koyasha wrote...




As to the earlier points of distance, it's true that I don't know that my distance comparisons are accurate, but either way it's quite clear that the dead trenches are not far from Orzammar.  

We know the possible distance between Orzammar and Kal-Sharok. Both cities can be found on the map of Thedas that was released a few days ago. (http://dragonage.bio...ery/wallpapers/)

In another thread David Gaider said that Ferelden was about the size of England, while Thedas was as large of Europe. Seeing that Kal-Sharok lies to the north of Orlais I would assume that the distance between the two Dwarven cities is several hundred miles.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The only real problem with the anvil, is that you can't really control those who use it.



If only volonteers are to be used - I don't see nothing really evil in it. It's their choice. Their sacrifice.

Yes, the process is horrifyingly painful and long. But some would still volunteer.

It is a horryifing weapon - but the times and the enemy are horrifying too.



The thing is - weather you side with Harrowmont of Bhelen - both of them will move from just volounteers to forcing dwarves into the anvil. F' course, there's no way for your character to know that.



now, what irks me is Caradin himself. OK, oyu destroyed the Anvil...why throw himself into lava? For Makers sake, if you want to die, then at least be usefull in your death. Go out fighitng darkspawn..or continue serving your people.

[Original182]

now, what irks me is Caradin himself. OK, oyu destroyed the Anvil...why throw himself into lava? For Makers sake, if you want to die, then at least be usefull in your death. Go out fighitng darkspawn..or continue serving your people.

He's been living for thousands of years. He cannot live with the evil that he had done, and is weary of life.

Even Branka would commit suicide once you persuade and made her realize what she had done (sacrificing her entire house due to her obsession of the anvil). And she's been in the Deep Roads only a few years.

[Frislid]

Didn't bother to read through all of the pages, but I've sided with both so I know basically what happens. You can get the sidequest regardless of whomever you decide to side with. I didn't bring Shale when I sided with Branka, and afterwards I simply lied to him about not finding him and still got the sidequest. So that's nothing to worry about.

[The Angry One]

Krigwin wrote...

Wrong. Ask for human military aid as your boon from Alistair and the Darkspawn will be driven back into the Dead Trenches. You've braved two Thaigs (Aeducan Thaig and Cadash Thaig) in the game, you know more than anyone else (possibly more than even any Grey Warden to come before you) what there is to face in the Deep Roads. It's not tough, the only reason the dwarves can't do it is because they lack the numbers.

And how long do you honestly think that'd last?
How long until Fereldens get sick of fighting a war that has little to do with them?

The dwarves aided the humans in defeating this Blight even though their agreement was centuries-old and Orzammar had problems of their own. They honored their oath and Ferelden would have no problem returning the favor, especially as you have so many rallied armies ready to go after the siege of Denerim. Spread the news that the Darkspawn do in fact still exist, and possible more Blights are to come, and not only will the Grey Wardens, themselves numbering in the thousands, come rushing to the aid of the dwarves, but I can't imagine the other human nations not doing the same.

Dwarves have helped before, and everybody knows that darkspawn still exist after Blights (the "darkspawn are a dwarven problem" lines in some origins). They just don't care.
Sure right after a Blight people will be ready and eager to fight darkspawn but that will never last.

Even the Qunari, after Sten brings back information of what exactly a Blight is and what the Darkspawn are capable of.

The Qunari who spend all their time squabbling with Tevinter? If anything they'd use the info to come up with an attack on Ferelden.

Caridin retained his memories because at the time of his golem-ization he was the only smith who knew how to craft control rods. Shale reclaimed her sentience and gained some semblence of her memories because her control rod was irreparably damaged. All the other golems you see are mindless automatons, and there is no reason to believe they would all get their memories back if their control rods were destroyed.

You miss the point, if it's happened before it could happen again. Research could be made into Golems retaining their personalities without the need of control rods.

And, I wouldn't agree that living as a golem is "life". Caridin grew to despise his existence and I imagine living that long, especially being unable to enjoy the pleasures of life as a human can, is a whole new league of torment, there's enough suffering for just a normal human lifespan thank you very much. Indeed Shale's goal in the end, even after all her vaunted speeches on the superiority of being a nigh-indestructible rock being and reclaiming her sentience, is to reverse the transformation and become mortal once more.

Nobody ever said it was pleasant. It is simply necesarry. Shale may or may not want to be a dwarf again, but in any case I'm sure she prefers being a golem to being a Broodmother. And let's not forget she was a volunteer.
Caradin's self-pity is irrelevant here. If he hates it so much he can throw himself into the lava. He has no right to give the dwarves a way of beating the darkspawn then take it away because he has an attack of concience.

[The Angry One]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


The thing is - weather you side with Harrowmont of Bhelen - both of them will move from just volounteers to forcing dwarves into the anvil. F' course, there's no way for your character to know that.

That's why the ideal solution would be to place the Anvil under the joint control of the Wardens and the Legion of the Dead.
Both groups understand the importance for self-sacrifice to combat darkspawn, but both also know not to force anyone if they haven't volunteered.

[XOGHunter246]

I'm playing evil character now so i gonna side with branka

[Ferocious7]

Mason Reed wrote...

If Shale isn't in your party when you arrive at the Anvil of the Void and you have a good persuade (don't know how good it needs to be) you can keep him in your party /and/ support Branka.

POSSIBLE OTHER SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE OTHER QUESTS AFTER THE SECOND PARAGRAPH THROUGH THE END OF THIS POST:

this... I tried both outcomes.... you get golems to help fight the darkspawn as well as dwarves and legion of the dead if u recruit them... the golems are a seperate ally to call upon though when choosing... you'll see what i mean

even though I got all achievements in this game and went through it a bunch of times, I always wound up siding with branka (so when I sided with caridan, i beat branka then reloaded) but I believe you get dwarven warriors in place of the golems (which would be separate from the dwarven soldiers).   The golems are really good vs the archdemon, and I've yet to lose shale and I did get shale's quest after passing a persuasion check when speaking with her back at the camp... every time.

However, on this playthrough I'll probably side with the elves instead of werewolves (I normally side with the werewolves bcuz they're really good damage-dishers as well) and caridin instead of branka, harrowmont instead of bhelan, etc...although I've tried each, I've reloaded it after and since then stuck with that layout, I'm gonna go all the way through with another character using the other choices this time, but instead of killing the werewolves will turn them human (three possibilities in that situation, side with elves by killing the werewolves or by breaking the werewolves curse, or side with the werewolves and straight up bring havoc down upon the keeper LOL... I've done all venues).   I'll miss the golems and werewolves this time around and I know harrowmont isn't as "good" for the people supposedly.. but after playing the dwarf noble origin, bhelan really pisses me off LOL... who knows that maybe ill just kill him and reload bcuz he does seem to be better for those suffering in the lower castes and the casteless

Modifié par Ferocious7, 06 décembre 2009 - 02:12 .

[cglasgow]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Of course, this isn't known to the PC at the time of the decision, so it can't possibly play a role in that decision.

No, but the PC is reasonably able to figure out that it will take a genius of Caridin's caliber to figure out how to use the damn thing without an instruction manual, and there's only one of those available besides Caridin -- the crazy psycho lady who fed her entire clan to darkspawn.

This is what gets me.  Branka willingly betrayed her own house to the darkspawn.   I can't imagine any Grey Warden doing anything with someone who voluntarily sent her lover off to become a Brood Mother for her own self-serving goals except impaling them on a spear.   Because, y'know, darkspawn.

[Original182]

cglasgow wrote...
This is what gets me.  Branka willingly betrayed her own house to the darkspawn.   I can't imagine any Grey Warden doing anything with someone who voluntarily sent her lover off to become a Brood Mother for her own self-serving goals except impaling them on a spear.   Because, y'know, darkspawn.

Yes that is the irony isn't it? Branka said she wants to use the anvil to create an army of golems to fight back the darkspawn. The same darkspawn that she fed her entire house to. Oh wait.

This is what happens when insanity takes over.

[cglasgow]

Also, as regards the dwarven population decline: the cause of that isn't the lack of golems, its the stupidly self-destructive caste system. Branka simply sees the cause as "lack of golems" because, well, there's only one dwarf noble in the entire damn game able to look at the caste system and go 'We've got to get rid of this crap and allow the casteless to fight and let back in the surface dwarves or else we're going to run out of bodies', and he's the lawful evil kinslaying backstabbing sonofa****.   Remember, the only person in the game who tells you that the lack of golems is destroying the dwarven race is Branka: least objective witness evar.   (Paragon Aeducan's own historical notes attribute the loss of the Deep Roads to the dwarves being weakened by too much political infighting to unite against the darkspawn, not being weakened by too few golems: and hey, Aeducan's only the guy who stopped the darkspawn advance at the gates of Orzammar, I think he'd know.)

But at least Bhelen's sane!. Also, his goals are comprehensible and predictable. (And really, given that dwarven politics are a continual murderthon anyway... well, I still wouldn't want him to be my king, but hey, I don't live in Orzammar.)

So if you want to save the dwarven race, throw the damn anvil into the lava, and pick Bhelen for king. They'll do fine.

Modifié par cglasgow, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:29 .

[AndarianTD]

Just got to this point and have to say that I'm not sure I agree with the implied ethical assumptions of the "moral dilemma." Yes, the Anvil can be misused to create slaves from the unwilling. But any power can be misused, magic very much included. That's why my irreligious and iconoclastic mage has never bought into the "Blood Magic is Evil" lore, and would have had no qualms about taking the specialization if it could have been obtained without selling out Connor. I'm sure that towing the "some magic is evil by nature" line is the socially acceptable position for many in Ferelden, especially given the influence of the Chantry. But I wouldn't say that disagreeing with that presumption can be called "evil."

To some extent the dilemma appears to me to be artificial. Why wouldn't one be able to find plenty of volunteers to be made golems? Offhand I can think of three groups who would likely be eager to volunteer: the Legion of the Dead,  Grey Wardens about to take the Calling, and the aged. If you're at the end of your life, what would you have to lose? If being enslaved to the "Control Rods" is the issue, then just make golems without them and let them keep their free will. Shale and Caridin already prove that can be done.
 
One of the things that bothers me about the setup is the lack of options to argue for a responsible use of the Anvil, and to disagree with Carridin's blithe assertion that it will be used to create slaves. So you're straightjacketed into either siding with him, or appearing to endorse a view that "the end justifies the means" for a means that you don't necessarily endorse. It may be that Branka and the new King can't be trusted not to force people onto the Anvil, but the lack of options available to argue for not misusing it seems to me to make the encounter a bit one-sided.

[cglasgow]

Caridin's not that far off: sure, you might only use volunteers, but how can you guarantee that the next owner after you won't succumb to the temptation?



Eventually, the Anvil will fall into the hands of some ruthless SOB who will misuse it in the way Caridin fears: that's pretty much a given, seeing as how many ruthless SOBs there are out there. You can only guarantee the Anvil's proper use for your own lifetime, and Caridin has to think of all the generations to come after you as well.

[Original182]

AndarianTD wrote...

Just got to this point and have to say that I'm not sure I agree with the implied ethical assumptions of the "moral dilemma." Yes, the Anvil can be misused to create slaves from the unwilling. But any power can be misused, magic very much included. That's why my irreligious and iconoclastic mage has never bought into the "Blood Magic is Evil" lore, and would have had no qualms about taking the specialization if it could have been obtained without selling out Connor. I'm sure that towing the "some magic is evil by nature" line is the socially acceptable position for many in Ferelden, especially given the influence of the Chantry. But I wouldn't say that disagreeing with that presumption can be called "evil."

But your argument is rendered invalid because we're talking about dwarves here. The Dwarves don't believe in the Maker, excluding that new Chantry priest. They are not indoctrined by the Chantry religion if you want to use the argument, because they don't have the Chantry.

So why then does Caridin feel that the anvil is an evil thing that must be destroyed? Because it IS, and not due to some Chantry dogma, etc.

To some extent the dilemma appears to me to be artificial. Why wouldn't one be able to find plenty of volunteers to be made golems? Offhand I can think of three groups who would likely be eager to volunteer: the Legion of the Dead,  Grey Wardens about to take the Calling, and the aged. If you're at the end of your life, what would you have to lose? If being enslaved to the "Control Rods" is the issue, then just make golems without them and let them keep their free will. Shale and Caridin already prove that can be done.

We as gamers only see the anvil as a tool. It's easy for us to say the ends justifies the means, because we don't go through the moral issue of turning people into golems. In fact, Morrigan agrees with the potential power of the anvil and wants to keep it, then my character's high persuade asked her whether she would like to be made a golem then. She instantly backed off.

So it crossed the moral line even for dwarves.

One of the things that bothers me about the setup is the lack of options to argue for a responsible use of the Anvil, and to disagree with Carridin's blithe assertion that it will be used to create slaves. So you're straightjacketed into either siding with him, or appearing to endorse a view that "the end justifies the means" for a means that you don't necessarily endorse. It may be that Branka and the new King can't be trusted not to force people onto the Anvil, but the lack of options available to argue for not misusing it seems to me to make the encounter a bit one-sided.

Because Caridin has personally seen that it has been abused. Initially,
he only took volunteers. Then his king back then wanted the casteless,
criminals and his political enemies to be made golems. When he felt sick and remorse and didn't want to do it anymore, his king then put him to the hammer to be made into a golem.

If it exists, it will be abused. He is living proof of it. And you've seen the nature of dwarven politics. Can you see someone not abusing such a thing? The temptation to create a legion of golems will be very strong, so strong that it even drove Branka mad. Maybe there will be a civil war over the Anvil. It is too powerful, and like any other forms of blood magic, too dangerous to be left intact.

[AndarianTD]

cglasgow wrote...

No, but the PC is reasonably able to figure out that it will take a genius of Caridin's caliber to figure out how to use the damn thing without an instruction manual, and there's only one of those available besides Caridin -- the crazy psycho lady who fed her entire clan to darkspawn.

This is what gets me.  Branka willingly betrayed her own house to the darkspawn.   I can't imagine any Grey Warden doing anything with someone who voluntarily sent her lover off to become a Brood Mother for her own self-serving goals except impaling them on a spear. Because, y'know, darkspawn.

I admit to playing through that segment a little quickly, but for the record this wasn't really clear to me from what I heard and read. There was a lot of innuendo in Hespith's remarks, and some in the bits of her and Branka's mostly inaudible mutterings while you worked your way the caverns near the end; but nothing that I found particlarly clear. If this is the case, though, then yes, it does argue that Branka can't really be trusted not to misuse the anvil.
 
I have to say that I found the "overhear someone muttering or chanting" technique to be flawed as a method of story exposition. It works well enough (and very charmingly) for banter between party members who are nearby, but even then the fact that it doesn't show up in the conversation log to review if you missed anything is a problem. DA's reliance on voicing for so much of the game adds a great deal to the experience, but I also feel personally that (with the exception of the codexes), it moved a little too far away from the use of written text.

[AndarianTD]

Original182: Thanks for repeating Caridin's assertions as presented in the story, but with all due respect that wasn't necessary. I got Caridin's point of view the first time I played it. That doesn't mean that I agree with it, and none of what you write addresses any of my objections.

To me it seems that the real argument for siding with Caridin is that Branka's gone a bit off the deep end (I didn't quite realize how far, given my comments about the exposition above), and that she specifically is both the only one who could make the Anvil work, and can't be trusted not to misuse it. But "just believing Caridin that the anvil's magic is evil" is no different from "just believing the Chantry" that Blood Magic is evil. There's no proof presented; it's just a point of view, and your character either role-plays accepting it or being an iconcoclast. From what the folks at Bioware told us at the Builder's Event, this is actually the kind of thing they're going for with DA. So a statement like:

So why then does Caridin feel that the anvil is an evil thing that must be destroyed? Because it IS, and not due to some Chantry dogma, etc.

is itself an assertion of dogma. By all means feel free to role-play believing such things; that's part of what the game is about. But please don't expect me to take your assertions on faith, or to RP a character who does the same.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 06 décembre 2009 - 04:27 .

[Original182]

Thank you for disagreeing with me without resorting to ridicule.

I was commenting on the part where you said your mage didn't buy into the "Blood Magic is evil". The point I wanted to make was Caridin was as irreligious as your mage character. There is no Chantry in Orzammar and dwarves don't believe in the Maker.

So if Caridin says the anvil is evil and must be destroyed, it is not because someone told him "blood magic is evil", and he believes it. It's because of some other reason. I wasn't asking you to take it at face value.

And Caridin's reasonings for saying the anvil is evil is the most valid, because he is the only one who has made golems. Only he knows best whether it is evil or not. We as gamers cannot comment on whether the anvil is evil or not, because we only see the practical part of it. Churning out powerful golems? Why not? It protects Orzammar, so it must be good, and thus can't be all that bad.

We can say that slavery and discrimination in the game is bad, because we can relate to it in real life. But there is nothing in real life where we take a human being and make him into a golem. So we don't understand how such an act can be evil, because we don't understand the dilemma.

But Caridin does, so that's why his opinion is more valid than everyone else's.