219 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

cglasgow wrote...

Caridin's not that far off: sure, you might only use volunteers, but how can you guarantee that the next owner after you won't succumb to the temptation?

Eventually, the Anvil will fall into the hands of some ruthless SOB who will misuse it in the way Caridin fears: that's pretty much a given, seeing as how many ruthless SOBs there are out there. You can only guarantee the Anvil's proper use for your own lifetime, and Caridin has to think of all the generations to come after you as well.

I'm sure when Orzammar is overrun and it's citizens are dragged off to become ghouls and broodmothers, they can at least be secure in the knowledge that the only technology that could've saved them was destroyed based on what might happen.

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...
I'm sure when Orzammar is overrun and it's citizens are dragged off to become ghouls and broodmothers, they can at least be secure in the knowledge that the only technology that could've saved them was destroyed based on what might happen.

But you don't know whether Orzammar will be overrun. And abuse of the Anvil already happened. Caridin is living proof.

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
I'm sure when Orzammar is overrun and it's citizens are dragged off to become ghouls and broodmothers, they can at least be secure in the knowledge that the only technology that could've saved them was destroyed based on what might happen.

But you don't know whether Orzammar will be overrun. And abuse of the Anvil already happened. Caridin is living proof.

Orzammar's population is dwindling, the dwarves are desperately trying to bolster their population by means of the caste upgrades through children and it still isn't working.
Under Harrowmont things would get even worse, because he maintains the caste discrimination unlike Bhelen who puts casteless into the army.

As for the abuses in the past, they're in the past. They need not happen again if people are intelligent about it.

[Barleyman74]

Orzammar's population is dwindling, the dwarves are desperately trying to bolster their population by means of the caste upgrades through children and it still isn't working.
Under Harrowmont things would get even worse, because he maintains the caste discrimination unlike Bhelen who puts casteless into the army.

As for the abuses in the past, they're in the past. They need not happen again if people are intelligent about it.

Apparently I got a bit different ending than most when playing as a dwarf commoner who sided with Bhelen.

So what happens with the golems is that Branka is out of control (no surprises there) and Bhelen tries to take control of the anvil, but Branka's fortress with golems is just too strong to take over so the siege is abandoned after some years.

On the other hand, Bhelen seems to be reformer, relaxing caste system and allowing casteless to serve as warriors. So the dwarves take back some thaigs with bolstered numbers and golems. However in the end the Anvil is left at the hands of a delusional madwoman (mad female dwarf?) instead of serving "common good". The chantry considers exalted march but doesn't pull it off, probably due to Bhelen trying to suppress Branka's activities.

Of course, they say the schism between Bhelen and Branka is started because Branka does not give Bhelen monopoly to Golem ownership. So in essense you've created a golem factory available for anyone with cash (Presumably. What does a lunatic want? Blushing virgins?) and necessary "human resources".

We can assume Branka would do business with Wardens considering who put her into the spot in the 1st place. And considering the Wardens do not have problems with recruiting people with false pretenses.. That's of course rather silly. Do you believe for a second NONE of the wardens would spill the beans? Especially if they learn only after the fact  what is involved?

[The Angry One]

That is why I said there should be the option to keep the Anvil, toss Branka into the lava and place it under the control of the Wardens and the Legion of the Dead. Both groups understand the need for sacrifice and bringing down the darkspawn, but also don't force anyone to make these sacrifices (Wardens do NOT recruit under false pretenses, Duncan is very open about the fact that a great deal of sacrifice must be made and the right of conscription isn't used willy-nilly).

[tmp7704]

Barleyman74 wrote...

Of course, they say the schism between Bhelen and Branka is started because Branka does not give Bhelen monopoly to Golem ownership. So in essense you've created a golem factory available for anyone with cash (Presumably. What does a lunatic want? Blushing virgins?) and necessary "human resources".

It could also mean something simpler, like Branka making golems also for herself rather than just for Bhelen. Something which obviously wouldn't sit well with him, as he'd see such powerful dwarf and Paragon to boot a serious potential threat to his dictatorship.

[johnbgardner]

Giving the Anvil to Branka is, in my opinion, insane. All arguments about the inherent morality of the Anvil aside, look at some of the facts we know.

1. A golem can only be created by sacrificing a life. Any life.

2. A golem is equivalent to (I think) fifty dwarven warriors in capability.

3. Branka knows how to create Broodmothers which can breed darkspawn.

4. Branka had no qualms about attacking her own husband in order to secure the Anvil.

5. Given the current dwarf population and availability of lives to create golems what better source of lives could Branka have than the darkspawn she creates with the Broodmother(s).



End result: Instead of hundreds of thousands of darkspawn, the world now has hundreds of thousands of darkspawn GOLEMS (each worth fifty or so single darkspawn) to contend with, all controlled by Branka (for the moment). Granted, she would probably direct her initial efforts into destroying the other darkspawn, but what happens when the next Archdemon is awakened? Who do you think would be the very first victim of said Archdemon? Now the Archdemon can not only control the normal darkspawn, but by killing Branka the Archdemon would be in control of the darkspawn golem army. Say bye-bye, ye inhabitants of the surface. You're toast.

[Original182]

johnbgardner wrote...

Giving the Anvil to Branka is, in my opinion, insane. All arguments about the inherent morality of the Anvil aside, look at some of the facts we know.
1. A golem can only be created by sacrificing a life. Any life.
2. A golem is equivalent to (I think) fifty dwarven warriors in capability.
3. Branka knows how to create Broodmothers which can breed darkspawn.
4. Branka had no qualms about attacking her own husband in order to secure the Anvil.
5. Given the current dwarf population and availability of lives to create golems what better source of lives could Branka have than the darkspawn she creates with the Broodmother(s).

Dude I like your reasoning, but please don't be offended if I point out a minor flaw. Darkspawn do not have souls.
It is because of that, that the archdemon's soul can possess a nearby darkspawn. But if a Grey Warden kills the archdemon, the old god's soul goes to the grey warden's soul, destroying them both, etc.

So there won't be an army of darkspawn golems. But there is no reason why a madwoman can't get as many souls as she wants from slaves, etc. So Branka is still dangerous.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Original182 wrote...

Thank you for disagreeing with me without resorting to ridicule.
I was commenting on the part where you said your mage didn't buy into the "Blood Magic is evil". The point I wanted to make was Caridin was as irreligious as your mage character. There is no Chantry in Orzammar and dwarves don't believe in the Maker.
So if Caridin says the anvil is evil and must be destroyed, it is not because someone told him "blood magic is evil", and he believes it. It's because of some other reason. I wasn't asking you to take it at face value.
And Caridin's reasonings for saying the anvil is evil is the most valid, because he is the only one who has made golems. Only he knows best whether it is evil or not. We as gamers cannot comment on whether the anvil is evil or not, because we only see the practical part of it. Churning out powerful golems? Why not? It protects Orzammar, so it must be good, and thus can't be all that bad.
We can say that slavery and discrimination in the game is bad, because we can relate to it in real life. But there is nothing in real life where we take a human being and make him into a golem. So we don't understand how such an act can be evil, because we don't understand the dilemma.
But Caridin does, so that's why his opinion is more valid than everyone else's.

I actually disagree with this. In Ortan Thaig you can find Caridin's journal, which details the process of Golem creation. Drowning people in molten lyrium and then hammering the new golem form into shape (painfully) is involved. Add in the horror of forcing people to become Golems (the closest real analogy I could come up with is creating a slave army), and I think that people can understand the moral dilemma here. Not quite as completely as Caridin does since he actually lived through it the first time, but I think the players are given enough information to make an educated decision.

That's also why I'm wondering how people can say "Nah, it's all good. The anvil won't be misused." We saw it happen once already, what's preventing it from happening again? 

[Relshar]

I am playing through again but this time going to side with Harrowmont and Branka. I think Harrowmont will use the anvil wisely and will need it due to him being a weak king other wise.

[Mnemnosyne]

Original182 wrote...

Thank you for disagreeing with me without resorting to ridicule.
I was commenting on the part where you said your mage didn't buy into the "Blood Magic is evil". The point I wanted to make was Caridin was as irreligious as your mage character. There is no Chantry in Orzammar and dwarves don't believe in the Maker.
So if Caridin says the anvil is evil and must be destroyed, it is not because someone told him "blood magic is evil", and he believes it. It's because of some other reason. I wasn't asking you to take it at face value.
And Caridin's reasonings for saying the anvil is evil is the most valid, because he is the only one who has made golems. Only he knows best whether it is evil or not. We as gamers cannot comment on whether the anvil is evil or not, because we only see the practical part of it. Churning out powerful golems? Why not? It protects Orzammar, so it must be good, and thus can't be all that bad.
We can say that slavery and discrimination in the game is bad, because we can relate to it in real life. But there is nothing in real life where we take a human being and make him into a golem. So we don't understand how such an act can be evil, because we don't understand the dilemma.
But Caridin does, so that's why his opinion is more valid than everyone else's.

Caridin sees the anvil as evil for pretty much the same reason the Chantry sees Blood Magic as evil.  Because it can take lives from the unwilling to power its function.  No, he doesn't see it as evil because the Chantry says it is, but it's about the same thing.  He's decided it's morally wrong to use it, and thus decides to deny its use to everyone, no matter what.  He wants to make sure only volunteers go on it, he should do it himself.  He's a bloody immortal golem, he can construct his own golem army to prevent anyone from ever forcing him to do it to someone against their will, so if he wants to do what's "right," he should continue making golems himself and personally make sure it's not misused.  Instead he wants to destroy the device which can make the most effective means of combating the darkspawn that has ever been invented.

As for it being misused, personally I don't care whether it is or not as long as the ultimate goal is achieved: defeating the darkspawn.  After the darkspawn are completely defeated, after we're sure they're never coming back, ever, after we have golem patrols keeping every inch of the deep roads safe, then maybe we can think about destroying it.  Until then, if I could control it, I'd be building a golem army with volunteers, conscripts, slaves, or absolutely anyone I can get my hands on until the darkspawn have been defeated.  Obviously from a practical purpose it would be counter-productive to make everyone in the world mad at me, so volunteers would probably be my primary source of golems, but the morality of the issue is irrelevant when faced with an enemy like the darkspawn.

[CoM Solaufein]

Carridan is the right or good option where Branka is the evil option. I usually go with Carridan, Branka annoyed me the moment we found her.

[The Angry One]

Yeah the point in all this is it isn't black and white morality.

The Anvil isn't a nice thing and it has potential to be misused. But when faced with a horde like the darkspawn who violate all natural life you have to use everything at your disposal.

Caradin's solution was to sit there and cry about it while the darkspawn overran the entire dwarven territory up to Orzammar when he could've been making sure that the Anvil would only be used on a volunteer basis - the tyrants that wanted to misuse it were long dead anyway.



If you ask me every dwarf to die to the darkspawn, every man who became a gibbering ghoul, every woman who was violated and became a broodmother are all on Caradin's stupid head.

[cglasgow]

You do remember that Caridin tells you that golems cannot touch the Anvil of the Void? Golem-Caridin can't make more golems with it, nor can he destroy it. He has to sit there and guard it because until someone living comes along willing to destroy the Anvil for him, he's got no other options. (Yes, I am aware that the crown-forging animation shows him using the Anvil of the Void to forge the crown, but he's only using it as a handy striking surface like its any normal anvil, he's not actually using its magic... or trying to break it.)

[The Angry One]

cglasgow wrote...

You do remember that Caridin tells you that golems cannot touch the Anvil of the Void? Golem-Caridin can't make more golems with it, nor can he destroy it. He has to sit there and guard it because until someone living comes along willing to destroy the Anvil for him, he's got no other options. (Yes, I am aware that the crown-forging animation shows him using the Anvil of the Void to forge the crown, but he's only using it as a handy striking surface like its any normal anvil, he's not actually using its magic... or trying to break it.)

Golems can't DESTROY the anvil, but they obviously can use it.

[CptLin]

I always thought the perfect Golem solution was to use the Legion of the Dead. They have already "died", and if they are just searching to destory Darkspawn how could they do it better than as a Golem?



But in the end you have the same problem. Instead of people being drafted as Golems they would be drafted as LoD, and the Golems.

[raveth]

Hmm I usually side with Caridin, because he strangely reminds me of Ferron from Hordes of the Underdark. He just wants to be free. I pretty much knew from the moment I met Branka, though, that I wasn't going to help her, darkspawn encroachment or not. Anyone who could do what she did to her entire house should not be in charge of any kind of enslavement device. If there was a way to keep the Anvil but not keep Branka, I would have considered it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

cglasgow wrote...

No, but the PC is reasonably able to figure out that it will take a genius of Caridin's caliber to figure out how to use the damn thing without an instruction manual, and there's only one of those available besides Caridin -- the crazy psycho lady who fed her entire clan to darkspawn.

For now, yes, that's the only person who can do it, but suggeting that we're choosing between destroying it forever or letting Branka have free reign is a false dichotomy.

Yes, using the Anvil requires that we let Branka be the one using it, but it does not require that she always be the only one using it (a future paragon may well be able to use it), nor does it require that she be allowed to use it without oversight, or that she be allowed to use it indefinitely without anyone stopping her.

The choice being made is between destroying an amazingly useful piece of equipment, or not destroying it (thus allowing it to be used under some possible circumstance in the future).

Really, if the blight isn't defeated, whether the dwarves did something evil becomes largely moot.  The goal of the Wardens is to defeat the darkspawn, and to do it by any means necessary.  If that means sacrificing some dwarves every century or so, that seems like a small price to pay.

[The Angry One]

Even if killing Branka rendered the Anvil useless for the time being, it wouldn't be permanent.

Branka learned how to use it without ever having laid eyes on the thing. And yes, she's a genius and all that. But given enough time and study someone else would learn.

Taking this route would mean no Golems for your army, but it would leave the possibility for Golem squads taking back the Deep Roads open for the future. Again, the Legion of the Dead and the Grey Wardens both know the importance of sacrifice AND the importance of free will in choosing that sacrifice and thus would make the ideal guardians for the Anvil.

[Adria Teksuni]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I've got to say Cairdin. Branka is just too damned creepy batso insane for me to EVER help her, not even to get the alternate storyline. I just cannot bring myself to do it.



Disclaimer: I am a self professed Dark Side Weenie from way back, so keep that in mind.

[thegreateski]

Lil-Vinny29 wrote...

Im right where you have to choose between the two.  Whats the consequences, a little afraid of the outcome of choosing sides here unless theres none really?

Thank you for helping me out

You may or may not damn the entire Dwarven race to death depening on your choice.

[The Angry One]

Of course if my theory about Kal-Sharok is right, then there's another Anvil or equivalent device there, so not all hope is lost.

Then again my theories are never right,

[Adria Teksuni]

Well, they do use it whether or not you let Branka have it, so obviously "destroying" the Anvil doesn't really "destroy" squat, unless they changed the definition when I wasn't looking.

[thegreateski]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course if my theory about Kal-Sharok is right, then there's another Anvil or equivalent device there, so not all hope is lost.
Then again my theories are never right,

They could always just be remarkably badass.

In one of the Dwarven endings, if a certain Dwarf becomes king then they manage to push the Darkspawn back and recover several lost Thaigs without the help of golems.

This only reinforces my belief that Dwarves are awesome.

[The Angry One]

thegreateski wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course if my theory about Kal-Sharok is right, then there's another Anvil or equivalent device there, so not all hope is lost.
Then again my theories are never right,

They could always just be remarkably badass.

In one of the Dwarven endings, if a certain Dwarf becomes king then they manage to push the Darkspawn back and recover several lost Thaigs without the help of golems.

This only reinforces my belief that Dwarves are awesome.

As someone mentioned before, pushing the darkspawn back a few Thaigs to the Dead Trenches is a feat, but not much of an impact considering just how damn huge the Deep Roads are, they stretch underneath the entire continent of Thedas.
Besides I'm thinking of the in game codex lore that hints that the people of Kal-Sharok were cut off from the surface and Orzammar without any hope, yet they survived and have become forever "changed".
It won't say how, but I'm thinking the majority of them are now Golems. That'd be pretty neat to see in a sequel actually, a whole city run by society of thinking Golems like Shale.