219 réponses à ce sujet

[Mnemnosyne]

The Angry One wrote...

Even if killing Branka rendered the Anvil useless for the time being, it wouldn't be permanent.
Branka learned how to use it without ever having laid eyes on the thing. And yes, she's a genius and all that. But given enough time and study someone else would learn.
Taking this route would mean no Golems for your army, but it would leave the possibility for Golem squads taking back the Deep Roads open for the future. Again, the Legion of the Dead and the Grey Wardens both know the importance of sacrifice AND the importance of free will in choosing that sacrifice and thus would make the ideal guardians for the Anvil.

Honestly I do not really share your opinion of the Grey Wardens' consideration of free will in their sacrifice.  Considering they specifically keep many of the disadvantages of becoming a Grey Warden secret, even when they do not invoke the Right of Conscription, they are not giving people the information they need to make an actual decision of their own volition.  By the time recruits learn even a little the severity of the sacrifice they must make, it is already too late for them to back out.  And conscripts, of course, never have the choice to back out in the first place.  Furthermore, they never learn the entire truth about the sacrifice they are making until well after it is made.  I would hardly consider this an example of free will in choosing that sacrifice.

Furthermore, the main reason we do not see them using the Right of Conscription more aggresively in Ferelden is noted by Duncan during the human noble opening.  The Grey Wardens are a small order in Ferelden, and not held in universally high regard, thus they cannot afford to anger the nobility or the population by conscripting everyone they feel they need.

The Grey Wardens are not a volunteer army, and they clearly use any means at their disposal, from lies of omission to downright force to conscript people they feel they need in order to accomplish their goals.  I have no doubt that the Grey Wardens as a whole would have no real issue sacrificing the unwilling on the Anvil in order to defeat the darkspawn, even if some individuals would have a problem with it.  And I'm ok with that.

The Legion of the Dead seems to be much more of a volunteer force, but even that is hardly an entirely voluntary sacrifice, since often, the options are, join the Legion or bring dishonor upon your family and clan, and probably be executed or something like that anyway.

[The Angry One]

While the Wardens do keep the specifics of the penalties of the Joining secret, they are fairly open about the fact that sacrifice is part of being a Grey Warden, and that the Joining is potentially lethal.

They aren't saints, but I don't think the Wardens would ever force people to become Golems like certain Orzammar tyrants have and would.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Most of those arguing agains the anvil are doing so because of Branka. Sure, as the Angry One said, I would have loved to kill both Branka and Caridin for being idiots and I would have kept the anvil and gave it to the Legion of the Dead. That way, I get to kill people I don't like AND preserve a potent weapon and tool that can be used to not only defeat the blight but also hunt down and eradicate the broodmothers, possibly exterminating the darkspawns permenatly. What happens after that you might ask? Well our descendants would think of it when they come to it. But the immediate and long term benefits of having the golems surpass your so called "morality" and the intolerance I have for Branka.

[Adria Teksuni]

The Angry One wrote...
That'd be pretty neat to see in a sequel actually, a whole city run by society of thinking Golems like Shale.

Sequel, nothing.  I want it in some DLC!

[thegreateski]

The Angry One wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course if my theory about Kal-Sharok is right, then there's another Anvil or equivalent device there, so not all hope is lost.
Then again my theories are never right,

They could always just be remarkably badass.

In one of the Dwarven endings, if a certain Dwarf becomes king then they manage to push the Darkspawn back and recover several lost Thaigs without the help of golems.

This only reinforces my belief that Dwarves are awesome.

As someone mentioned before, pushing the darkspawn back a few Thaigs to the Dead Trenches is a feat, but not much of an impact considering just how damn huge the Deep Roads are, they stretch underneath the entire continent of Thedas.
Besides I'm thinking of the in game codex lore that hints that the people of Kal-Sharok were cut off from the surface and Orzammar without any hope, yet they survived and have become forever "changed".
It won't say how, but I'm thinking the majority of them are now Golems. That'd be pretty neat to see in a sequel actually, a whole city run by society of thinking Golems like Shale.

Doesn't it say that there are only 12 Dwarf cities though?

[Krigwin]

Alright, let's get a few misconceptions out of the way first before I move on. First, thanks to Apophis2412 for the map and information about the relative size of Thedas, that was very educational.

Second, Caridin cannot operate the Anvil. He tells you this when you meet him, golems are physically incapable of using or touching the Anvil in any way. When I first saw him make the crown I was like "lolwut?" but I'm forced to assume this was just a cinematic convenience and for all we know the Anvil of the Void can be used as an ordinary anvil as well as a demonic robot-making machine. If Caridin cannot operate the Anvil because he was made a golem, and Caridin was also the only one who was smart enough to make control rods, it logically follows that when his king made Caridin into a golem, he also inadvertently lost his only way to make golems as well. We're also told that without a control rod, golems are not just born as golems with free wills, they're made insane from the pain of their transformation and go on a killing spree. Control rods are needed to keep golems in check, and we're just forced to assume this did not happen to Caridin because of his extreme intelligence and sheer force of will. Remember, Shale lived as a mindless golem for a very, very long time and did not regain her sentience until her control rod was damaged in some battle. As a golem, Caridin wanted desperately to destroy the Anvil, but he could not, so his only option was to seal off the Anvil and build all those traps to prevent more dwarves coming to look for it and rushing to their deaths, and wait patiently for the day someone smart enough to come along and destroy the Anvil for him.

Third, Branka didn't know immediately how to use the Anvil when she got there. She just had a control rod, and was able to seize control of several golems that were already present. It's fair to assume a golem cannot use a control rod, not even Caridin. After you killed Caridin, she probably had to study the Anvil for some time before getting the golem-ization process down pat, plus she was already aided by Caridin's journal. And this is Branka we're talking about, a Paragon who is a genius engineer and inventor. It's fair to assume that only those with great mechanical expertise, or possibly even only dwarves, because we don't know the full magic of the Anvil involved, can use the Anvil. At the time, the only such being is Branka. We have no evidence to support the assumption that if we gave the Anvil to anyone else, they would be able to use it. Like I said, it's highly possible that if/when Branka dies, no one else will ever be able to operate the Anvil again. Branka doesn't seem like the type anyways to share her trade secrets.

Fourth, Orzammar is in no real danger. Paragon Aeducan led the defense of Orzammar, and as a last-ditch effort the entrance to the Deep Roads were sealed. Orzammar has been safe, and well-guarded for, for all we know, centuries. You people talk about the Darkspawn as if they're some kind of hyper-intelligent Borg that spends every waking moment trying to invade Orzammar, when really they're more dull-witted beasts that fight each other readily when no other opponent is made available. The Darkspawn do not actively bang on Orzammar's doors, they just form routine raids in the nearby Deep Roads from time to time, as such is their behavior. The real dangers of Orzammar are political stagnation, poverty, an unwillingness to change by the conservative leadership. Like I said, if the outdated caste system was dissolved and the dwarves began conscripting warriors en masse, they would not even need the aid of the golems to reclaim much of the Deep Roads.

Alright, as for the Thaig-Great Thaig thing and the distance in the Deep Roads, until we're given some sort of detailed map with distance measurements (as well as more information on the Thaigs themselves) we're gonna have to save this for another time. But like I said, there's a difference between being able to cleanse the entirety of the Roads and reclaim all the Thaigs, and simply being able to defend the Thaigs that are actually inhabitated and the neighboring Roads. I don't even believe the dwarves, even with surfacer aid, can do the former, but they might not even need surfacer or golem aid to do the latter. Nor do I believe that reclaiming all of the dwarven-made Deep Roads would eradicate the Darkspawn - if they're truly subterranean burrowing creatures, it's highly possible they have some kind of underground complex or lairs that are inaccessible by even dwarves.

Another thing about the Deep Roads is, we are told the Darkspawn breach the surface like an eruption, and this is the secret to how they can swarm so quickly in real Blights. This logically follows that entrances to the Roads can be made from the surface, and the dwarves already know how to do this - they have created entrances to their underground Thaigs, made readily available from the surface, in order to facilitate surface trade. You are making it sound as if the human armies would need to travel a great, great distance to go fight some enemy really far away, when really they could be fighting an enemy extremely close to home - just underground. And again, there'd be no need to physically guard every single mile of the Deep Roads - only the ones that are actively travelled and necessary to maintain inhabitated Thaigs.

But none of this matters. We can argue the logistics of fielding a true Darkspawn-killing army and the geographics of the Roads and the mechanics of the golems all day, but in the end none of that is important because again, there's no assurances keeping the Anvil around will do anything at all in the fight against the Darkspawn. You're not handing over the Anvil to a Grey Warden, or even someone like the Grey Wardens, who will loyally use the Anvil to serve the greater good by fighting the Darkspawn. This is not the choice given to you in the game. We can argue hypotheticals like "oh maybe one day a super-good Paragon will come along and take control of the Anvil, and form a purely volunteer golem army that patrols the entirety of the Deep Roads until the end of time!", and to that I'd just say that maybe, one day Branka will go insane and seize control of Orzammar, renaming it Brankammar, and forces all dwarves to live as slaves mining rocks and forging steel to be used to make golems, and of course all political dissidents are immediately seized and made golems, and then once she has a sizable army she goes on an unstoppable rampage against all surfacers and ends up killing everyone until all that's left on Thedas is golems.

It's an easy choice for me because one of the options is apparently "keep the Anvil around because one day it might be used for good!". In the meantime it'll be under the control of one really crazy dwarf. No thanks, I'll find other ways to defeat evil without resorting to evil. And let's assume that everything goes perfectly and the Anvil really does annihilate all Darkspawn (again, slow-moving defensive unit, never meant to go on the warpath and track down enemies) . What terrible price have we paid? We've reduced our own kind to something like the Darkspawn - soulless and evil, bred only for war. If all we've done to win the war is become our enemy, then we might as well have lost. It's easy, as gamers, to only see the practical side of things but to me this is a moral decision.

Also,

As for the abuses in the past, they're in the past. They need not happen again if people are intelligent about it.

lolno

[johnbgardner]

Original182 wrote...

johnbgardner wrote...

Giving the Anvil to Branka is, in my opinion, insane. All arguments about the inherent morality of the Anvil aside, look at some of the facts we know.
1. A golem can only be created by sacrificing a life. Any life.
2. A golem is equivalent to (I think) fifty dwarven warriors in capability.
3. Branka knows how to create Broodmothers which can breed darkspawn.
4. Branka had no qualms about attacking her own husband in order to secure the Anvil.
5. Given the current dwarf population and availability of lives to create golems what better source of lives could Branka have than the darkspawn she creates with the Broodmother(s).

Dude I like your reasoning, but please don't be offended if I point out a minor flaw. Darkspawn do not have souls.
It is because of that, that the archdemon's soul can possess a nearby darkspawn. But if a Grey Warden kills the archdemon, the old god's soul goes to the grey warden's soul, destroying them both, etc.

So there won't be an army of darkspawn golems. But there is no reason why a madwoman can't get as many souls as she wants from slaves, etc. So Branka is still dangerous.

Life-force, not a soul, is needed.  The life is needed to animate the golem.  Just about any life will do, except undead which are animated by magic.  So, in my opinion, darkspawn could be made into golems.

Modifié par johnbgardner, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:33 .

[thegreateski]

johnbgardner wrote...

Original182 wrote...

johnbgardner wrote...

Giving the Anvil to Branka is, in my opinion, insane. All arguments about the inherent morality of the Anvil aside, look at some of the facts we know.
1. A golem can only be created by sacrificing a life. Any life.
2. A golem is equivalent to (I think) fifty dwarven warriors in capability.
3. Branka knows how to create Broodmothers which can breed darkspawn.
4. Branka had no qualms about attacking her own husband in order to secure the Anvil.
5. Given the current dwarf population and availability of lives to create golems what better source of lives could Branka have than the darkspawn she creates with the Broodmother(s).

Dude I like your reasoning, but please don't be offended if I point out a minor flaw. Darkspawn do not have souls.
It is because of that, that the archdemon's soul can possess a nearby darkspawn. But if a Grey Warden kills the archdemon, the old god's soul goes to the grey warden's soul, destroying them both, etc.

So there won't be an army of darkspawn golems. But there is no reason why a madwoman can't get as many souls as she wants from slaves, etc. So Branka is still dangerous.

Life-force, not a soul, is needed.  The life is needed to animate the golem.  Just about any life will do, except undead which are animated by magic.  So, in my opinion, darkspawn could be made into golems.

That would end well. . . .

[cglasgow]

Shale is living proof that golems can revert back to their original personalities when the control rods break.



Now imagine that happening with, oh, a genlock alpha in there.



Yeah. Not good.

[Mnemnosyne]

Krigwin wrote...

It's an easy choice for me because one of the options is apparently "keep the Anvil around because one day it might be used for good!". In the meantime it'll be under the control of one really crazy dwarf. No thanks, I'll find other ways to defeat evil without resorting to evil. And let's assume that everything goes perfectly and the Anvil really does annihilate all Darkspawn (again, slow-moving defensive unit, never meant to go on the warpath and track down enemies) . What terrible price have we paid? We've reduced our own kind to something like the Darkspawn - soulless and evil, bred only for war. If all we've done to win the war is become our enemy, then we might as well have lost. It's easy, as gamers, to only see the practical side of things but to me this is a moral decision.

The dwarves may reclaim a small portion of territory around Orzammar if they restructure their society and improve, this is true.  However, in the long-term I still believe that the darkspawn would eventually overwhelm them no matter what, without a superior force of some kind, because the darkspawn are better equipped for underground movement and combat, and just as important have a much more efficient means of reproduction.  I strongly believe that any victory would be temporary, given these considerations, barring any unforeseeable developments.

Even if we take it as a given that golems are not highly effective as offensive troops (which I don't entirely agree with, but for the sake of the discussion let's accept it as a hypothetical standpoint) they are still highly effective and efficient garrison troops, used to keep the areas secure after they have been cleared of darkspawn.  It is the difficulty in keeping areas under your control secure that makes the darkspawn a dangerous opponent in the deep roads - it becomes very difficult to maintain a front line, when the darkspawn can circle around or over or under your front line and attack anywhere they want to.  If every region behind the lines is secured by golems, then this is much less of a danger, since even a small golem force will hold off the darkspawn until reinforcements arrive, thus making it difficult for them to do much damage behind your front lines.

I also agree that golems are no guarantee that the deep roads could be retaken and the darkspawn exterminated, but thus far they have proven to be the most effective weapon ever used against the darkspawn, and destroying the only means of creating them seems foolish when we have no guarantee that anything equally effective or superior will ever come along.  You say you will find other ways to defeat evil without resorting to evil, but from a logical standpoint there is no way you could guarantee that.  As far as the concept of winning only to become like our enemy goes, that's an argument that will never take hold with me, because the entire idea of 'that's what makes us better than them' means nothing to me.  It is irrelevant whether we are 'better' than them - only who is still alive at the end is relevant to me.

You are correct in that our perspective is different as gamers, but I feel that cuts both ways.  You believe that the detachment allows us to see the practical side and ignore the morality of the decision - I believe quite the opposite, that the position of doing the 'right thing' is one that tends to primarily come from those who are not directly threatened, and the decision would in no way be an easy choice for you if you were actually in Thedas, being threatened by darkspawn and had faced this opponent and had a personal understanding of the situation.  Of course, we can only argue from what we believe our viewpoints might be, but to claim it an easy choice seems an opinion that can only be held when one is not actually faced with that decision and its true potential consequences.  That is not to say that my decision to keep it around would be easy either, but in the end it seems to have more support from a logical perspective.  Either decision has risks, but the risks of destroying the Anvil would clearly appear to outweigh the risks of keeping it.

[Mnemnosyne]

cglasgow wrote...

Shale is living proof that golems can revert back to their original personalities when the control rods break.

Now imagine that happening with, oh, a genlock alpha in there.

Yeah. Not good.

On the topic of golems created from darkspawn, this is difficult to say.  Caridin does say 'life' but there's no way to be certain that darkspawn would be useful in this.  Similarly there's no way to be certain they wouldn't.

Either way, the danger of golems reverting to their original darkspawn personalities when the control rod is broken seems like a minor one, given that it seems unlikely that control rods will be broken in mass quantities.  At worst, the occasional rogue golem would have to be destroyed, and while golems are powerful opponents, they are hardly so dangerous that a rogue or two would be a problem.  Only if somehow an entire army of golems were to regain their darkspawn minds would it be a serious threat, and this seems like an event so unlikely as to be ruled out as a reasonable possibility.

[Gelmirthebloody]

Although my initial reaction is to keep the anvil, I think that Branka's instability is a HUGE problem. In addition to all of the points already made concerning that issue, I would like to add another:

If you give the anvil to Branka all of her sociopathic "the-ends-justify-the-means" behavior will have been justified. So, going forward, she is HIGHLY likely to resort to psychotic methods to achieve her ends because hey, it worked so well once before.

A great book on this is "Why They Kill"... exploration of violent offenders.

How do the endings work out? That should settle this debate, no? If you keep the anvil do the dwarves in fact prosper? In my first run through I destroyed the anvil and put Bhelen in power and things seemed to work out pretty well for the Dwarves....

[DragonRageGT]

I can't read all this many small letters.. my eyes hurt... but I did some... I will not get into the philosophycal discussion, just into the gameplay one.

It is not true that Caradin cannot use the forge... He cannot destroy it. No golem can. But he can still use it and forge a crown, of course.

In my first run, Hard diff, Branka beated me some 10 times so I switch sides and fought with her. Later I persuaded her that the Anvil was evil and she forged me a crown and jumped in the lava pit. (after she destroyed it)

This time in Nightmare, with more experience and C.E.'s DLCs... she was not even beginning to be a threat when I killed her! I still think that NM is easier than hard diff. =)

Branka - The Princess of the Dawn - The full Anvil of the Void episode with all cutscenes and my party for the combat of course!

Modifié par RageGT, 07 décembre 2009 - 04:25 .

[Krigwin]

Koyasha wrote...
The dwarves may reclaim a small portion of territory around Orzammar if they restructure their society and improve, this is true...

Two things: in the First Blight, the dwarves lost such an incredible amount of land not just because of the loss of their golems, but also because it was a freaking Blight. With no Archdemon around to guide them, the horde battle against each other endlessly and lack the coordination to form a unified force to attack the dwarves, nor are they intelligent enough to perform surgical strikes on the Roads like the nightmare you're spinning. That's why Orzammar is in no real danger. In peacetime all Darkspawn do is form routine raids once in a while, there is no danger of the Darkspawn overwhelming all dwarvenkind everywhere along the Roads simultaneously like you claim. The only situation this would be possible would be during another Blight.

Second thing is, again, not trying to achieve any "victory" of any kind, and I actually don't even believe a victory would truly be possible. It's possible the Darkspawn live in unprecedented and mind-boggling numbers deep underground, in mass legions even the dwarves have never seen before. What we're trying to achieve is not ultimate victory ie eradication of all Darkspawn, which could very well be an impossible goal, but rather to forge an era of peacetime where the dwarves are adequately equipped to defend their Thaigs and the parts of the Deep Roads that are most vital to transportation and trade. And I am arguing not only that golem aid is not necessary for such a task, but also that keeping the Anvil is no guarantee that golems will be used to aid in this task.

Even if we take it as a given that golems are not highly effective as offensive troops (which I don't entirely agree with, but for the sake of the discussion let's accept it as a hypothetical standpoint) they are still highly effective and efficient garrison troops, used to keep the areas secure after they have been cleared of darkspawn...

I agree that golems would be the ideal unit for such a task, but ideal doesn't mean only. If the dwarves did indeed restructure their society and vastly increase the size of their armies, then it's possible that they could do this without golem aid. The more land they recover, the greater their population can grow, the bigger their armies become, which in turn allows them to reclaim more land.

I also agree that golems are no guarantee that the deep roads could be retaken and the darkspawn exterminated, but thus far they have proven to be the most effective weapon ever used against the darkspawn, and destroying the only means of creating them seems foolish when we have no guarantee that anything equally effective or superior will ever come along.  You say you will find other ways to defeat evil without resorting to evil, but from a logical standpoint there is no way you could guarantee that.  As far as the concept of winning only to become like our enemy goes, that's an argument that will never take hold with me, because the entire idea of 'that's what makes us better than them' means nothing to me.  It is irrelevant whether we are 'better' than them - only who is still alive at the end is relevant to me.

Actually no - the golems were crafted as the first and ultimate line of defense against the Darkspawn, meant to hold the line indefinitely, and the loss of them was what caused the dwarves to get overwhelmed. They were never an offensive army. The most effective weapon ever to be used against the Darkspawn, as in actively hunt down Darkspawn and kill them, and drive their forces back, are not the golems, but rather the Grey Wardens, and that's because only a Grey Warden can defeat the Archdemons, which are rather the heads of the snake. Again, if Grey Wardens were the ones using golems, then that would be the best of both worlds, but this is not the case.

And yes, it may seem foolish to destroy the Anvil when we have no guarantee that a weapon of such caliber will ever be created again, but I can just as easily say it's foolish to keep the Anvil around when we have no guarantee that such a weapon will only be used against our enemies and to serve the greater good. We're both arguing from positions of hope, the only difference is my position has ingame evidence supporting its assumptions (that Branka is a loon) and my choice doesn't leave the possibility of a soulless army-creating tool lying around to one day be used by the wrong hands. There's no way to guarantee anything, and when you factor in other things like the morality of it the decision becomes clear.

You are correct in that our perspective is different as gamers, but I feel that cuts both ways.  You believe that the detachment allows us to see the practical side and ignore the morality of the decision - I believe quite the opposite, that the position of doing the 'right thing' is one that tends to primarily come from those who are not directly threatened, and the decision would in no way be an easy choice for you if you were actually in Thedas, being threatened by darkspawn and had faced this opponent and had a personal understanding of the situation.  Of course, we can only argue from what we believe our viewpoints might be, but to claim it an easy choice seems an opinion that can only be held when one is not actually faced with that decision and its true potential consequences.  That is not to say that my decision to keep it around would be easy either, but in the end it seems to have more support from a logical perspective.  Either decision has risks, but the risks of destroying the Anvil would clearly appear to outweigh the risks of keeping it.

Actually, when I first encountered this decision, I played it from a pure RP perspective: My character had just cleansed two Thaigs as well as several other stretches of the Deep Roads, and defeated the Darkspawn legions there. That same character would then go on to cleanse another Thaig, and then go on to defeat the invading Darkspawn armies and kill the Archdemon in single combat. All of this done without a single golem. My character was confident in the martial ability of the Grey Wardens, and felt the problems with the dwarves were not militaristic, but rather political. In later playthroughs I decided to play the pragmatist and see just how much this ultimate weapon would end up helping the dwarves, and as a result was thoroughly disappointed (but not surprised) by the endings.

But yes, I can see why it would appear the risks of destroying the Anvil are too great, but again that is only because you are willfully ignoring every single moral and ethical objection to such a decision. I can't even really agree that keeping the Anvil around is a practically sound choice either, because what's there to say that one day Branka doesn't decide to label all humans or all Grey Wardens as her enemies? 

[Original182]

Koyasha wrote...
Caridin sees the anvil as evil for pretty much the same reason the Chantry sees Blood Magic as evil.  Because it can take lives from the unwilling to power its function.  No, he doesn't see it as evil because the Chantry says it is, but it's about the same thing.  He's decided it's morally wrong to use it, and thus decides to deny its use to everyone, no matter what.  He wants to make sure only volunteers go on it, he should do it himself.  He's a bloody immortal golem, he can construct his own golem army to prevent anyone from ever forcing him to do it to someone against their will, so if he wants to do what's "right," he should continue making golems himself and personally make sure it's not misused.  Instead he wants to destroy the device which can make the most effective means of combating the darkspawn that has ever been invented.

As for it being misused, personally I don't care whether it is or not as long as the ultimate goal is achieved: defeating the darkspawn.  After the darkspawn are completely defeated, after we're sure they're never coming back, ever, after we have golem patrols keeping every inch of the deep roads safe, then maybe we can think about destroying it.  Until then, if I could control it, I'd be building a golem army with volunteers, conscripts, slaves, or absolutely anyone I can get my hands on until the darkspawn have been defeated.  Obviously from a practical purpose it would be counter-productive to make everyone in the world mad at me, so volunteers would probably be my primary source of golems, but the morality of the issue is irrelevant when faced with an enemy like the darkspawn.

I may have missed the current theme of the discussion, but my
conclusion is that the Anvil must be destroyed because it is evil and immoral. It is so immoral that no practical use can justify its existence.

The ends do not justify the means. If we ignore moral issues, then Loghain is also justified in selling the Alienage elves to the Telvinter mages (who are known to sacrifice slaves to power their blood magic), to fund his army to fight the darkspawn. From a practical point of view, the elves aren't of much use in Denerim, compared to nobles and soldiers, so they would better serve their country by being sold for money. That would give the army more equipment to defeat the darkspawn. So yes it does make sense practically, but we're talking about slavery here! You cannot justify slavery! If we ignore morals just for the sake of defeating the darkspawn, then you would be no better than Branka, who would sacrifice her entire house just for the anvil.

Morals must never be ignored. And in Caridin's case, the anvil is so evil that it must be destroyed. He already felt guilt when he was turning volunteers into golems, so even if volunteers offer to be made into golems, it doesn't make it any better.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Angry One wrote...

Even if killing Branka rendered the Anvil useless for the time being, it wouldn't be permanent.

Sure it would.  Caridin specifically says he wants to destroy the thing.  If I want to save the Anvil for any reason, I need to stop Caridin from destroying it.

[Kerilus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Even if killing Branka rendered the Anvil useless for the time being, it wouldn't be permanent.

Sure it would.  Caridin specifically says he wants to destroy the thing.  If I want to save the Anvil for any reason, I need to stop Caridin from destroying it.

I think the reason he's still there where you arrive is that he cannot destroy the Anvil by himself.

[Mnemnosyne]

Krigwin wrote...

Two things: in the First Blight, the dwarves lost such an incredible amount of land not just because of the loss of their golems, but also because it was a freaking Blight. With no Archdemon around to guide them, the horde battle against each other endlessly and lack the coordination to form a unified force to attack the dwarves, nor are they intelligent enough to perform surgical strikes on the Roads like the nightmare you're spinning. That's why Orzammar is in no real danger. In peacetime all Darkspawn do is form routine raids once in a while, there is no danger of the Darkspawn overwhelming all dwarvenkind everywhere along the Roads simultaneously like you claim. The only situation this would be possible would be during another Blight.

I didn't mean that they would overwhelm dwarves from everywhere along the deep roads simultaneously, but that a military front could not be maintained against them precisely due to their chaotic and unpredictable nature, along with their numbers and ability to assault anywhere they choose.  They wouldn't need to make strategic or intelligent assaults, they need only attack random places behind the 'front lines' of the battle, and they would inflict considerable losses.  It's not feasible to garrison the entirety of the deep roads - even the entirety of a relatively small region of the deep roads, due the logistical and supply concerns.  Orzammar itself is in no real danger of being militarily overwhelmed in the short term, but it is in long-term danger of going down through attrition.  Regardless....

Second thing is, again, not trying to achieve any "victory" of any kind, and I actually don't even believe a victory would truly be possible. It's possible the Darkspawn live in unprecedented and mind-boggling numbers deep underground, in mass legions even the dwarves have never seen before. What we're trying to achieve is not ultimate victory ie eradication of all Darkspawn, which could very well be an impossible goal, but rather to forge an era of peacetime where the dwarves are adequately equipped to defend their Thaigs and the parts of the Deep Roads that are most vital to transportation and trade. And I am arguing not only that golem aid is not necessary for such a task, but also that keeping the Anvil is no guarantee that golems will be used to aid in this task.

Here is a point where we differ significantly.  Your goal may not be ultimate victory and eradication of every darkspawn that exists, but that's the goal I have in mind when I consider the potential use of the Anvil.  Golems are stated, by Caridin, to be as flexible and clever as any soldier (this is part of why I do not believe they would make a poor offensive force).  This means that, once you have secured your own territory, you can send autonomous golems on a permanent mission to search and destroy darkspawn.  Could every last remaining darkspawn truly be hunted down and obliterated?  Perhaps not.  But with an unrelenting force of golems constantly searching them out and destroying them, we can assume that their very nature would prevent them from growing to such large numbers as to become a true threat again - after all, they do not act in unison so they would not hide themselves and build their numbers, and while they are clearly intelligent they do not behave in a manner that suggests they are capable of making and sticking to long-term plans.

I agree that golems would be the ideal unit for such a task, but ideal doesn't mean only. If the dwarves did indeed restructure their society and vastly increase the size of their armies, then it's possible that they could do this without golem aid. The more land they recover, the greater their population can grow, the bigger their armies become, which in turn allows them to reclaim more land.

I suspect that the percentage of the dwarven population that would have to be soldiers in order to accomplish this task in an area of more than a single city and a few thaigs would be extremely high, but I can't think of any way to back up that assertion, so I'll simply leave it as something to consider.

Actually no - the golems were crafted as the first and ultimate line of defense against the Darkspawn, meant to hold the line indefinitely, and the loss of them was what caused the dwarves to get overwhelmed. They were never an offensive army. The most effective weapon ever to be used against the Darkspawn, as in actively hunt down Darkspawn and kill them, and drive their forces back, are not the golems, but rather the Grey Wardens, and that's because only a Grey Warden can defeat the Archdemons, which are rather the heads of the snake. Again, if Grey Wardens were the ones using golems, then that would be the best of both worlds, but this is not the case.

Grey Wardens are meaningless unless there's an Archdemon to defeat, really.  Their only advantage is that they can sense darkspawn - which is also a weakness since darkspawn can sense them, in return.  If your goal is securing some territory and defending it, that's good enough, but if your goal is the complete extermination of darkspawn, then Grey Wardens are no more effective than ordinary soldiers and have no real advantages.

And yes, it may seem foolish to destroy the Anvil when we have no guarantee that a weapon of such caliber will ever be created again, but I can just as easily say it's foolish to keep the Anvil around when we have no guarantee that such a weapon will only be used against our enemies and to serve the greater good. We're both arguing from positions of hope, the only difference is my position has ingame evidence supporting its assumptions (that Branka is a loon) and my choice doesn't leave the possibility of a soulless army-creating tool lying around to one day be used by the wrong hands. There's no way to guarantee anything, and when you factor in other things like the morality of it the decision becomes clear.

....

But yes, I can see why it would appear the risks of destroying the
Anvil are too great, but again that is only because you are willfully
ignoring every single moral and ethical objection to such a decision.
I can't even really agree that keeping the Anvil around is a
practically sound choice either, because what's there to say that one
day Branka doesn't decide to label all humans or all Grey Wardens as
her enemies? 

I never argue that it will only be used against our enemies.  Only that as long as it is available to be used against the darkspawn, it is better than that it is not available.  It is unlikely anyone controlling it will set out to exterminate all humans, elves, and dwarves (or even one of those groups, as a whole).  It may be used to defeat nations, conquer and enslave populations and so on, but the probability that any person or group of people that control it will be dead set on the obliteration of all, and would live long enough to carry out those insane goals, is so extraordinarily low as to be insignificant.  Even if Branka went entirely mad and decided to kill every living thing on Thedas except herself, it is unlikely she would survive long enough to make significant headway toward that goal.  She may manage to wipe out a nation or two within her lifetime, but not much more.  Whoever gains control of the anvil after that is even more unlikely to continue that goal.

And yes, I am ignoring moral and ethical objections, because I personally don't agree with such objections in general.  I don't view morality in that manner, if there is any such argument to be made with me it tends to be on a personal level rather than a general one.  For the sake of this hypothetical argument, I'm arguing from the perspective of 'all sentient beings (other than darkspawn)' rather than a personal perspective.  This seems like the only reasonable perspective to argue from in this case, because from most personal perspectives, or even that of a single society, the destruction of the anvil would be in my best interests, even if it is not in the best interest of all people as a whole.  From a personal perspective, I could not help but agree with you that leaving Branka in charge of the Anvil is too dangerous in the short term, and possibly even worth its destruction.  Only by setting aside the individual, group, and even the national perspective can the good of the entire world be considered, however, and on that scale, I believe that any potential abuse is worthwhile as long as the weapon remains against the darkspawn.

[Mnemnosyne]

Original182 wrote...

I may have missed the current theme of the discussion, but my
conclusion is that the Anvil must be destroyed because it is evil and immoral. It is so immoral that no practical use can justify its existence.

This isn't a position I can attempt to refute, since morality is entirely subjective, and I do not view it in the same manner.  Attempting to argue from this position would be meaningless since it is unlikely either of us will ever convince the other to change such a position.

The ends do not justify the means. If we ignore moral issues, then Loghain is also justified in selling the Alienage elves to the Telvinter mages (who are known to sacrifice slaves to power their blood magic), to fund his army to fight the darkspawn. From a practical point of view, the elves aren't of much use in Denerim, compared to nobles and soldiers, so they would better serve their country by being sold for money. That would give the army more equipment to defeat the darkspawn. So yes it does make sense practically, but we're talking about slavery here! You cannot justify slavery! If we ignore morals just for the sake of defeating the darkspawn, then you would be no better than Branka, who would sacrifice her entire house just for the anvil.

It matters not whether I would be 'better' than anyone.  Only whether I am alive and the darkspawn are not, at the end of the day.  If I am alive, then anything I have done in order to get there is justified.  If I am not alive, then whether it is justified or not is irrelevant, since I'm not alive to care.

You are correct about Loghain.  From his
point of view he is entirely right in his course of action and were it
not for the fact that he is fighting against the Grey Wardens (I.e, me), and the fact that he is unaware that military might alone without the Grey Wardens
can never end the Blight, I would fully support him selling the elves
to Tevinter in order to fund the army that is needed in order to defeat
the darkspawn.  Indeed, in Loghain's position, if all I had was the information he has at that point in time, I would be selling elves to Tevinter as well in order to fund my army, since without money I have no army, and without an army I would no longer be alive since either the darkspawn or my human enemies would kill me.

[cglasgow]

Belated thought: all solutions that involve giving the anvil to anyone other than either Branka or the current ruler of Orzammar are pipe dreams.

Because there is no way that the dwarves are going to just let you walk away with that thing, and you have to go back through Orzammar to reach the surface from the Anvil of the Void. (Kal Sharok does not have surface access -- if they did, they'd be less pissed off about being abandoned for 200 years.   Besides, they're dwarves too.)

Odds of the dwarves just letting you walk on out with one of their race's greatest historical treasures, that also happens to be a ginormously powerful artifact? Forged by a Paragon, no less? You'd have better luck convincing the Grey Wardens of Weisshaupt to let you "borrow" their entire supply of archdemon blood.

Modifié par cglasgow, 13 décembre 2009 - 07:11 .

[uuufffttaa]

God Damn Branka, I'm set on easy, the mother ****ing AI made me pick between Morrigan and Shale, so I took Morrigan. And I always get down to Branka and me - rogue - and one of my Golems'. And I still can't beat that PMS ranting divorced stupid **** B I T C H.

[uuufffttaa]

And I can't get the **** out of there which means unless I beat it, I have to start all the way over again. Mother****ers at Bioware could have at least forewarned newbies like me who have never played a RPG and probably never will again. **** you

[Original182]

Do you have any stun moves or spells, like shield bash, paralysis, glyph of paralysis, mass paralysis, sleep, etc? I find that they are the difference maker in all fights for me.

[uuufffttaa]

I have paralysis and sleep but they don't work on Golems and Branka sometimes resists them so they do no good. I use the CoC/Stone Fist. Also, Wynne cannot seem to help my 2 Golems as far as health is concerned?