243 réponses à ce sujet

[viverravid]

After about 8 playthroughs, I wanted to write a bit about why I was so disappointed with the story explanation for the end boss. The actual fight, like all of ME2's gameplay, is fantastic, and I think ME2 is a massive improvement over ME1 in every way - except the main story arc.

Before I complain, I just want to emphasize that - ME2 is brilliant and better than ME1 in almost every way. Combat, music, characterization, quest design, combat, music, voice acting, sound effects, combat, music, animation, lighting, did I mention the combat and the music? - all great. The main story is the only let down (and it's only disappointing relative to the high standard of ME1)

The contradictions and ret-cons to the ME1 story have been discussed here at length, I just want to focus on the end boss and the resolution of the collector abduction mystery. Up until that point, Mass Effect had probably the most plausible scientific explanations of plot and gameplay devices of any sci-fi game (or sci-if movie or TV show) ever. It seemed pretty clear the writers had consulted with astronomers, physicists, and biologists in building the universe. Key plot points like the Genophage are scientifically informed and plausible. Even the planet details on the galaxy map seem right (to my limited physics). And from early on in ME2, we learn that the central mystery motivating the bad guys probably has something to do with a unique aspect of human biology. Cool.

Throughout the game, we get hints of why the collectors need to abduct humans. Via Husks, Scions, and Praetorians we can see that they are using humans as raw material to make shock troops. This makes sense - these creatures are clearly built from the remains of adult humans, repurposed to become weapons of the reapers. We've seen the husks created that way in ME1. It's a bit like the Strogg in Quakes 2 & 4, but way better. Using abducted colonists as raw material for this process makes sense. That they have to be human makes sense - perhaps the modifications don't work right with other races biology. Perhaps they developed these techniques on humans and they're sticking with what they know. Plenty to speculate about, and it all makes sense.

But then in the collector base we learn that the bulk of the humans aren't being repurposed in this way, but are being rendered down into a raw "genetic paste", which is somehow the "essence" of humans, and it is being used to... make a giant robot that looks like a human skeleton. Why does it look like a human? Because it's made from the "essence" of humans, of course. EDI tells us this, and she isn't ever wrong.

Now, the human reaper looks badass and bioware lose no points for emphasising cool looks over scientific believability. But.... the story explanation is just silly. Really silly. Really really silly. There is no reason a giant pile of human DNA goop should develop into something that looks like a giant human - unless of course you poured it into a giant human-shaped mould. But if you're just doing that, you could use DNA goop from anywhere. You could even synthesize it. Or you could even, like, maybe, use super strong metal alloys instead. These reapers are supposed to be smart, after all. Why mould yourself out of DNA goop if you could be using unobtanium alloy?

It's like saying that if you got a crate of Drew Karpyshyn Mass Effect: Revelation novels, rendered them down into pulp and ink, and used the resulting materials with reaper printing technology to create a new epic-length manuscript for a book, that somehow this new book would contain the "essence" of Revelation, only it'd be more epic. No actual writing required - the same characters, same plot outline, same locations (but all reaper-y and more epic) would all show up automagically just because you used the pulp and ink distilled from the original books. How'd they get there? They're in the "essence" of the book, silly. EDI said so.

Why is it silly? All any gene actually does is describe how to make a particular protein by joining a series of amino acids together. Human DNA is basically a giant dictionary listing how to "spell" different proteins (though maybe 90 odd percent of it is just unused random letters that have never been deleted) Human DNA is a recipe for making a human only when it is in the nucleus of a human cell. For example, In a newly fertilised human egg cell, there is more of one chemical at one end of the egg than the other. Where this chemical is in high concentration, it turns some genes on, where it's low, it turns other genes on. When a gene is turned on, machinery inside the cell starts creating some of the protein it "spells". This protein may alter the cells around it, or it may turn other genes on or off, which then make other proteins which alter cells or turn other genes on or off, which then make other proteins which alter cells or turn other genes on or off,  which then make... etc etc. From that initial imbalance of one chemical, a whole sequence of actions happens that eventually turns into a head at one end and a tail at the other. (And then later you lose the tail, thankfully)

To put it simply - when human DNA is in a fertilised human egg cell, with all the cellular machinery for translating DNA sequences into protein chains and all the surrounding environment of the womb, a whole cascade of things happens, each step depending on the step before it and the immediate environment, and all that eventually builds a human. Outside that environment, one pile of DNA is pretty much the same as any other pile of DNA. It doesn't retain the 'essence' of the creature it came from. The 'essence' comes from the interaction of the DNA code reading machinery and the "letters" spelled out by a string of DNA code. The code letters on their own are useless.

Same as all 5 1/4" computer discs being pretty much all the same useless hunks of plastic and iron oxide as each other these days, unless you still have a 5 1/4" disk drive equipped computer to read them with.

So what if I make a biiiiig stretch and assume that actually the human reaper was being created through some kind of analog of human embryonic development, where the harvested human DNA code was somehow controlling the sequence of building the human reaper larva, just scaled up and altered by reaper tech. Well, then the reapers still wouldn't need the DNA from gazillions of humans. Just one cell from one person would give you the code. 

Again, it's like saying that to make a mile-high version of the Mass Effect: Ascension novel you need to pulp thousands of Ascension novels to provide the raw material, rather than the obvious solution of building the giant version out of concrete or steel and just copying the words from one copy of Ascension .

So lets make a bigger stretch and assume the reaper is being grown from actual human cells, fortified by super-reaper-tech, and that's what the colonists were being rendered down into - a paste of still-living human cells. Even then, if you needed human cells to build the thing from, you could just clone them all from an initial cell. In fact you would have to clone them all from one initial cell, otherwise they wouldn't have the reaper-tech-altered build-a-human-reaper DNA sequence required. When a human grows, there isn't the DNA in one cell controlling the whole process, each new cell has it's own copy of the same instructions. It works because they're all reading from the same script. Building a reaper using a mixture of different cells with different DNA from millions of genetically diverse humans is a recipe for epic cancer.

I guess I could be really really generous and assume that the reapers are just constructing the human-reaper from liquified humans as a psych warfare tactic - so they can kill you with your own grandmothers liquified corpse. And they made it look like a skeleton just to make it look scarier. And poor EDI was just confused and making stuff up to cover for it, knowing Shepard skipped genetics 101 and wouldn't notice. (Maybe that's why Mordin dies so easily holding the line at the end - so he won't pipe up and point out the giant genetic plot holes).

I won't complain if the human reaper larva and collector abductions get the ME2 liara treatment in ME3. Ret-con and derail away, please!

[Skilled Seeker]

Giant wall of text WILL NOT READ! Condense your babbling dammit.

[Nightwriter]

To anyone who doesn't want to read the behemoth:

The OP is an enormous explanation of why this person thinks making a giant human Reaper from human goop is ridiculous and scientifically implausible.

To OP:

No sh*t, Sherlock.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 avril 2010 - 01:13 .

[Mondo47]

So you're saying that even with Reaper-tech, if we rendered down every copy of the entire Twilight series into its base components, it couldn't be reconstituted into a single book that didn't suck?

Damn, for all those millions of years sat on their metal asses, the Reapers are as dumb as humans...

[nikki191]

Personally i suspect its not just the fact that they need human DNA to make a human Reaper, I suspect and no I dont have any evidence, that its the consciousness of the individual is transfered as well making a gigantic hive mind of the species that makes up that particular Reaper.



It boggles my mind that people cant be bothered to read a few paragraphs of text. people read these things called books that have multiple pages of text, if you cant be bothered to read a few paragraphs then why bother posting at all if all you do is complain and tell the poster to condense it

[iNixiRir]

viverravid wrote...
*wall of text*

Yeah, that's why I believe they called it: "Science FICTION" and not "Scientifically True"...

[Sajuro]

The hive mind makes more sense, who knows.. Shepard might have been the lead mind if the collectors got their hands on him.

[Ieldra]

I can only say I agree completely with what you wrote, viverravid. The story justification for the colonist abduction is an insult to any player who knows the least bit about science. I'm not against technological miracles - it's part of what makes SF interesting - but this....thing is the embodiment of cheap thrill overcoming the last bit of sense in stories.

[smudboy]

Right. I can understand a particular phenotype from a whole bunch of humans, let's say, muscle tissue, that would be going into building the muscles of a giant human Reaper. As opposed to, melting an entire human down and somehow grafting them onto a robot skeleton by simply pumping it into...something. That is completely stupid.

Let alone, why a giant human Reaper? What's the utility? I thought Reapers were million year old nations of AI's in giant ships with super intelligence? What possible function would a giant human like cyborg be? Especially since Reapers see organic life as a bunch of ants waiting to be crushed.

Again, there can be answers to these questions, but we never got any. All they had to do was tell us.

[DrMoebius]

Just to play devil's advocat, how do you know how far the DNA of a human is broken down in the paste? One complete strand of human DNA will still make one and only one specific human, that's kind of the point of DNA. So long as your splicing process retains all the genes required for a human, you're good to go. Guess where the instructions on how to make a human cell are?



On top of that, you have no idea how the reaper creation process works. Clearly they're not just taking 10,000 humans worth of slurry and putting it in a caserole dish and microwaving it, hoping that a giant human pops out. The human-reaper larva is clearly metallic, so it's obviously some sort of techno-organic hybrid which gives them the right to just say "uh... science. That's how." It's both growing and being built at the same time. Maybe they built it human to scare the bejeezus out of humans. Just my thoughts.

[Ieldra]

iNixiRir wrote...

viverravid wrote...
*wall of text*

Yeah, that's why I believe they called it: "Science FICTION" and not "Scientifically True"...

Repeating this 10000 times doesn't make this argument valid. Things in SF stories should be plausible, because it's assumed that science is valid in these stories. You may extend technology to circumvent certain limitations, you may invent new laws of nature that let you do interesting and presently impossible things, but you can't simply discount a whole body of scientific knowledge. Science is a process of accumulation. New knowledge, as a rule, does not invalidate the old, it only incorporates it as a special case.

I can understand why people don't want to deal with the implications of general relativity and FTL combined. And after all, for a good galaxy-wide plot it's almost necessary to do so. But simply ignoring keystone-like facts of cell biology and genetics without any necessity, that's inexcusable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 avril 2010 - 01:31 .

[Joisan]

viverravid wrote...

<snip giant wall of text>

As a biochemistry major, I salute you for thinking that in-depth about the "human Reaper".    I personally just shrug and chalk it up to Bioware putting the Cool Effect above believability but I do hope that the ultimate explanation for why the Reapers harvest organic life is better than that.

[smudboy]

DrMoebius wrote...
Just to play devil's advocat, how do you know how far the DNA of a human is broken down in the paste? One complete strand of human DNA will still make one and only one specific human, that's kind of the point of DNA. So long as your splicing process retains all the genes required for a human, you're good to go. Guess where the instructions on how to make a human cell are?

If that's the case, why not just take a cell?  Why melt the entire body?

On top of that, you have no idea how the reaper creation process works. Clearly they're not just taking 10,000 humans worth of slurry and putting it in a caserole dish and microwaving it, hoping that a giant human pops out. The human-reaper larva is clearly metallic, so it's obviously some sort of techno-organic hybrid which gives them the right to just say "uh... science. That's how." It's both growing and being built at the same time. Maybe they built it human to scare the bejeezus out of humans. Just my thoughts.

Considering Reapers want to kill every organic thing, or play with them, I don't see why they'd take this method of creating new Reapers.  Again, what's the utility?

Obviously some cells are destroyed in the process, so I must assume that destroyed mass must be used as building material.  But why would a machine body need organic parts?  If you're an AI, or nation of AI's, and have a physically stronger, faster, and more capable mind and body, what would organic components do?  Have really amazing giant sex with your other non-human Reaper buddies?  If the Reapers are truly this proud and god like species, who see organics as something like dirt, why would they need them to create actual Reapers?  Doesn't that contradict Sovereign, because he's pretty much calling itself dirt?

My conclusion: Harbinger is insane.

[Alamar2078]

I thought the basic shape of the human reaper was a constructed / designed endoskeleton and the genetic paste was just going to be grafted on or similar. Heck the paste might not even control muscles or similar. It would make sense that the paste [genetic goup] would be grown into the control systems of the Reaper.

[Texaboose]

Reapers are magic with DNA. They can make DNA-Jello and pour it into a big reaper mold. Or something.

[inversevideo]

OP good analysis, but I think it is simpler, and forgive my long winded reply.

In ME1 Sovereign said each reaper is a nation unto itself.

In ME2 EDI hypothesizes that each reaper is created in the image of the species harvested.

Those two things kind of dove-tail with each other.

The Reapers could probably make every individual reaper look the same.
Instead, the Reapers chose to model each newly created reaper on the race used to construct it.

How a reaper looks, is a design choice only, and is not based on the genetic material being harvested. The choice to model each reaper's looks loosely on the race being harvested, probably owes more to the programming of the original reaper (reaper zero if you will) than it does any biological imperative.

Someone, somewhere, somewhen, created a machine that vaguely resembled their race, probably to scare the water, amonia, whatever, out of their enemies, when they saw this behemoth darken their skies; the enemy knew who had come for them.

At some point, the AI gained sefl determination, so like the other AIs in literature, Collosus, Skynet, Cylons, Borg, Geth, the new intelligence turned on their former masters, it had a plan, and it made more.

The inhabitants of the galaxy at that time lost. And every 50,000 years it/they  come back, harvests anew, make another, in the image of the race that was harvested, as was the original was in the image of the race that was harvested, and they cycle repeats.

The bigger question is why use organics at all?
Again probably goes back to 'reaper zero'.
Some race created a machine / organic interface, or several levels of machine / organic interfaces, and at some point, the machine runtimes, dominated the organic component completely.
It created more, it simply removed pesky things, from the organic components, like free will and self determination; and harvested the organics biological and technological resources/distinctiveness to service them.

Modifié par inversevideo, 13 avril 2010 - 01:55 .

[epoch_]

You're crazy if you think I'm going to read all of that.

[lavosslayer]

The whole reason humans were chosen was due to their overwhelming variation from human to human. Obviously the basics are the same but I think the reason why they abducted so many colonists was to be able to make the Reaper itself be invulnerable by infusing it with as many human genetic variations as possible.



That being the case we have no idea how their refining process of the "genetic goup" worked other then the isolation of specific genetic traits from the basic human DNA structure. For all we know the "goup" in the vials that were injected into the Reaper were filled with orange juice...

[Tilarta]

Well, the Reaper we see is not a finished product.



It's a work in progress.



When it's finished, it definitely won't look like a giant skeleton, that's just the framework around which the Reaper will be assembled.



Judging from the images in the Collectors Edition artbook, the Reaper is actually fitted into a shell more familiar with what we've seen. The face is actually under the abdomen facing downwards.



Also, given that Reapers are partially organic in nature, I would speculate that they grow much larger as they near completion. The Reaper we see, while quite large, is much smaller then Sovereign.



And lastly, I believe the reason to construct a Reaper from organic parts has to do with Indoctrination and the Collector "remote control" process.



Maybe a Reaper constructed from a particular species is more compatible with these processes, kind of like genetic compatibility meaning tissue rejection is less likely.



Harbinger is a Prothean Reaper and it appears he's the only one who "assumes control", as well as communicates with the Collectors.

[enormousmoonboots]

iNixiRir wrote...

viverravid wrote...
*wall of text*

Yeah, that's why I believe they called it: "Science FICTION" and not "Scientifically True"...

Nnnnnnope. Science fiction is rooted in science (thus the name) with extreme, but usually logical, extrapolations for the future. If a SF story uses illogic and asspulls to justify its technology, it loses the right to truly call itself SF. And as SF goes, ME is pretty high up on the hardness scale (at least as far as popular stuff is concerned), except for random elements like this.

Yeah, OP, that kind of bothers me, too (though EDI's "It's giving off both organic and inorganic energy signatures!" is also worth a serious facepalm, when it comes to science). Aside from Reaper Magic, there's really no explanation for abducting the colonists and using them like that. And I HATE the Reaper Magic explanation.

"Why are you doing this?"
"YOU COULD NOT UNDERSTAND."
"So Vigil, why are they doing this?"
"Well, we cannot understand them, but they come by, harvest any useful resources, and then go to sleep. I've never seen any kind of analogous behavior."
"..."

[DC86]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

viverravid wrote...
*wall of text*

Yeah, that's why I believe they called it: "Science FICTION" and not "Scientifically True"...

Repeating this 10000 times doesn't make this argument valid. Things in SF stories should be plausible, because it's assumed that science is valid in these stories. You may extend technology to circumvent certain limitations, you may invent new laws of nature that let you do interesting and presently impossible things, but you can't simply discount a whole body of scientific knowledge. Science is a process of accumulation. New knowledge, as a rule, does not invalidate the old, it only incorporates it as a special case.

I can understand why people don't want to deal with the implications of general relativity and FTL combined. And after all, for a good galaxy-wide plot it's almost necessary to do so. But simply ignoring keystone-like facts of cell biology and genetics without any necessity, that's inexcusable.

The theory is only true, until someone or something will prove that theory untrue.

[inversevideo]

Tilarta wrote...

Well, the Reaper we see is not a finished product.

It's a work in progress.

When it's finished, it definitely won't look like a giant skeleton, that's just the framework around which the Reaper will be assembled.

Judging from the images in the Collectors Edition artbook, the Reaper is actually fitted into a shell more familiar with what we've seen. The face is actually under the abdomen facing downwards.

Also, given that Reapers are partially organic in nature, I would speculate that they grow much larger as they near completion. The Reaper we see, while quite large, is much smaller then Sovereign.

And lastly, I believe the reason to construct a Reaper from organic parts has to do with Indoctrination and the Collector "remote control" process.

Maybe a Reaper constructed from a particular species is more compatible with these processes, kind of like genetic compatibility meaning tissue rejection is less likely.

Harbinger is a Prothean Reaper and it appears he's the only one who "assumes control", as well as communicates with the Collectors.

All very good possibilities.

FYI though, Harbinger is not a Prothean reaper.
It was stated, in ME2, that something about the Protheans made them unsuitable for being used to construct a new reaper. So instead, the Protheans were 're-purposed' into Collectors. 

I think it is somehow an important plot point, that the Protheans were unsuitable for making Reapers.
Not sure how it will play out, in ME3, but it can't be an accident, that the story has this as an element.

Modifié par inversevideo, 13 avril 2010 - 02:21 .

[SithLordExarKun]

Ieldra2 wrote...


Repeating this 10000 times doesn't make this argument valid. Things in SF stories should be plausible, because it's assumed that science is valid in these stories.
 

Not entirely true, look at star wars... since when theres sound in space which is essentially a vacuum?

[ThePasserby]

I don't understand why people who refuse to read a simple post like the OP (really, it's not that difficult to understand) feel so proud that they are unable or unwilling to do so. Are these forums for those with subnormal intelligence only?



Anyway, to viverradivd, nice analysis. My understanding of biology is rudimentary at best, but I get what you're saying. Something you might not have considered in your OP is the idea mentioned by inversevideo: The Collectors aren't collecting human DNA in order to mix them together. They could be collecting as many as they can in order to sieve out the best (from their perspective of what is best) genetic code from as many samples as they can.



They might, eventually, use just one DNA from which to "grow" a Reaper, but right now, they're still putting together an "ideal" DNA from their millions of samples.

[Mister Mida]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...


Repeating this 10000 times doesn't make this argument valid. Things in SF stories should be plausible, because it's assumed that science is valid in these stories.
 

Not entirely true, look at star wars... since when theres sound in space which is essentially a vacuum?

It is no secret this is done for cinematic effect, just like every sci-fi series/film does.