243 réponses à ce sujet

[spacehamsterZH]

You know... if any of this stuff was possible based on 2010 scientific knowledge, we'd have built it. Like the mass relays. Or biotic implants. But if you look at it properly, all of it has some fatal scientific flaw and would never work. I'm just sayin'.



I'm really still more disappointed by the fact that after 30-odd hours of buildup, we got this anticlimactic ending with an overly short and easy "suicide mission" and a preposterous "shoot the obvious bright orange weak spot" boss battle. I didn't think it was cool at all, glaring scientific inaccuracy or not.

[Solomen]

What people seem to forget is that reapers aren't the giant dreadnoughts...

How many reapers can fit in a human body

[Frekken]

Lets say that use of mass effect tech leads to slow build up of dark energy in stars.



Lets also say that long periods of non use lead to this dark energy disapating over time.



Now lets say you need a way to survive said period, and keep future civilizations from causing the same problems.



Lets say you design machines that can hold the conciousness of your race (and several others) while you wait out the long periods and are capable of harvesting and storing any new civ's that come along to keep them from destroying the galaxy like you almost did.



Pretty thin?

[jlb524]

viverravid wrote...

I guess I could be really really generous and assume that the reapers are just constructing the human-reaper from liquified humans as a psych warfare tactic - so they can kill you with your own grandmothers liquified corpse. And they made it look like a skeleton just to make it look scarier. And poor EDI was just confused and making stuff up to cover for it, knowing Shepard skipped genetics 101 and wouldn't notice. (Maybe that's why Mordin dies so easily holding the line at the end - so he won't pipe up and point out the giant genetic plot holes).

Never thought of this...makes more sense than looking at it from the genetics/biology perspective you explained.  It would be disturbing to a human knowing that the Reaper attacking them is made of human goo.

viverravid wrote...
I won't complain if the human reaper larva and collector abductions get the ME2 liara treatment in ME3. Ret-con and derail away, please!

They will get the same treatment and be forgotten about, I'm sure.

Modifié par jlb524, 13 avril 2010 - 03:08 .

[Solomen]

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

[enormousmoonboots]

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

[Nu-Nu]

Then you don't ever want to play bioshock then....or any other game...

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 13 avril 2010 - 03:32 .

[Solomen]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

NANOTECH VIRUS 
The reapers are bonding with the individual cell. 

[enormousmoonboots]

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

NANOTECH VIRUS 
The reapers are bonding with the individual cell. 

We're not playing Metal Gear Solid here. Where the hell does it say that Reapers 'bond with cells'?

[Solomen]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

NANOTECH VIRUS 
The reapers are bonding with the individual cell. 

We're not playing Metal Gear Solid here. Where the hell does it say that Reapers 'bond with cells'?

Its an obvious "Gray Goo" scenario.  They spend the entire game setting it up.  Read the codex and talk to Legion.

[BaronIveagh]

According to many, Science Fantasy is still Science Fiction. Look at Warhammer 40k....

[enormousmoonboots]

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

NANOTECH VIRUS 
The reapers are bonding with the individual cell. 

We're not playing Metal Gear Solid here. Where the hell does it say that Reapers 'bond with cells'?

Its an obvious "Gray Goo" scenario.  They spend the entire game setting it up.  Read the codex and talk to Legion.

Indoctrination isn't cybernetic (even in the case of the Heretic's program, it's just a program). 'Reaper cells' aren't involved at all. Husks and Scions are created with cybernetics, probably nanotech too--but you can't indoctrinate a cell. It doesn't have a mind to indoctrinate. Saying 'they indoctrinated the cells' is completely different than saying 'they converted the cells with tech'.

[Tilarta]

inversevideo wrote...
FYI though, Harbinger is not a Prothean reaper.
It was stated, in ME2, that something about the Protheans made them unsuitable for being used to construct a new reaper. So instead, the Protheans were 're-purposed' into Collectors. 

Yes, I do remember EDI saying that.

But it sounded to me like she was speculating without solid evidence to support that theory.

What I assume happens is when the Reapers finish building their new Reaper, they assess the species they defeated to find out if they'll be suitable to convert into Collectors. If they are, the survivors are changed. If they aren't, the Reapers just let them die.

And when I saw Harbinger at the end of the game, he did look different compared to the other Reapers.

Which would support the theory that he's a Prothean Reaper, because each new Reaper doesn't look similar to the others.

[enormousmoonboots]

Tilarta wrote...

inversevideo wrote...
FYI though, Harbinger is not a Prothean reaper.
It was stated, in ME2, that something about the Protheans made them unsuitable for being used to construct a new reaper. So instead, the Protheans were 're-purposed' into Collectors. 

Yes, I do remember EDI saying that.

But it sounded to me like she was speculating without solid evidence to support that theory.

What I assume happens is when the Reapers finish building their new Reaper, they assess the species they defeated to find out if they'll be suitable to convert into Collectors. If they are, the survivors are changed. If they aren't, the Reapers just let them die.

And when I saw Harbinger at the end of the game, he did look different compared to the other Reapers.

Which would support the theory that he's a Prothean Reaper, because each new Reaper doesn't look similar to the others.

Mmm, I don't buy it. If they could have made a Prothean Reaper, they wouldn't have needed to create the Collectors to give themselves a force in the galaxy. All those Protheans would have been put to better use as goo (come to think of it, how are new Collectors made? Do they breed? They're mostly cybernetics, but there's some DNA left in there).

All of the Reapers look different, presumably because they came from different species. The Collectors look like they were designed after Harbinger, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, since literally the only important exposition we get in the entire game is from EDI (well, and a few lines from Mordin), we have to trust what she says. If ME3 comes around and goes 'well actually everything EDI said was totally wrong', I will personally go to Canada and slap all of the writing staff in the face. It's awful storytelling. Bad enough the second game doesn't have a real villain to explain the antagonist's motivations (you can knock the villainous monologue all you want, but it's useful) and they have to unload all the plot points onto an NPC, but if they turn around and say all of EDI's extrapolations were 'just speculation' it totally invalidates the whole second game. Turns it into 'well, some stuff happened, but hell if I know why'.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Repeating this 10000 times doesn't make this argument valid. Things in SF stories should be plausible, because it's assumed that science is valid in these stories. You may extend technology to circumvent certain limitations, you may invent new laws of nature that let you do interesting and presently impossible things, but you can't simply discount a whole body of scientific knowledge. Science is a process of accumulation. New knowledge, as a rule, does not invalidate the old, it only incorporates it as a special case. 

So should we necessarily assume that our current laws/facts of nature are unbreakable? I understand perfectly your point about how SF stories are based on our own science. But if we look at our own history, there are scientifc theories or models at one time or another which we accepted as true, which have turned out later to be false. If you go back as far as or Ancient Greece, philosophers and scientists such as Aristotle believed in the four classical elements, which proved wrong.

Now how does this apply to ME? We are given many explanations for certain technological marvels and are expected to accept them as 'true'. We are later presented with Sovereign, who defies even the Council's most technologically advanced ships and proves nigh unbeatable. My point is that the Reapers clearly possess technology which outstrips anything we have ever seen. Is it truly impossible that they also have technology of a means to defy our current knowledge of biology?

[Solomen]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

NANOTECH VIRUS 
The reapers are bonding with the individual cell. 

We're not playing Metal Gear Solid here. Where the hell does it say that Reapers 'bond with cells'?

Its an obvious "Gray Goo" scenario.  They spend the entire game setting it up.  Read the codex and talk to Legion.

Indoctrination isn't cybernetic (even in the case of the Heretic's program, it's just a program). 'Reaper cells' aren't involved at all. Husks and Scions are created with cybernetics, probably nanotech too--but you can't indoctrinate a cell. It doesn't have a mind to indoctrinate. Saying 'they indoctrinated the cells' is completely different than saying 'they converted the cells with tech'.

Is it really so hard for you to see what I am saying

[kraidy1117]

Meh I look at it this way. We know how Reapers are grown now. Even if it could not happen, it's a video game.

[enormousmoonboots]

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

NANOTECH VIRUS 
The reapers are bonding with the individual cell. 

We're not playing Metal Gear Solid here. Where the hell does it say that Reapers 'bond with cells'?

Its an obvious "Gray Goo" scenario.  They spend the entire game setting it up.  Read the codex and talk to Legion.

Indoctrination isn't cybernetic (even in the case of the Heretic's program, it's just a program). 'Reaper cells' aren't involved at all. Husks and Scions are created with cybernetics, probably nanotech too--but you can't indoctrinate a cell. It doesn't have a mind to indoctrinate. Saying 'they indoctrinated the cells' is completely different than saying 'they converted the cells with tech'.

Is it really so hard for you to see what I am saying

Yes, because you're saying completely different things than what you appear to actually mean. Precision of language is all we have in forum-based communication, and you're not doing that very well.

[Gethforceone]

Its never said that it looks human because its made of human, like I read somewhere before I think that all reapers look different at their core, which is what I think that was.



And by the way, no sci-fi can truly be taken as plausable if this was then I doubt there would be flames shooting from the normandy at the beginning due to the lack of oxygen in space.

[Xaijin]

1. Indoctrination appears to a be a suite of both active and passive methods. Given Saren's final resistance, it doesn't appear to be something that occurs on the genetic or cellular level.



2. If reapers do have an understanding of Human genetic potential, then they understand the difference between transitional recessive and active traits, and what TRNA and "Junk DNA" actually are, which is precisely why they would require both multiple humans, and humans at different life stages. This is meta-justified by Solus' "range" speech during his loyalty mission.



3 A technorganic being such as Reapers appear to be: [Saren] would need "architectural components" of both organic and inorganic bits to fuse together.during the building process. One would assume their not going to just pick the first sample they come across as superior.



4. They may simply be amassing a broad genetic profile for cherry picking and or mix and matching of complementary expressions. They sure as hell don't think small.



5. They may be using the mix to create an actual virtual "composite human" to better understand how to kill them or use them when the time comes. Read code, express traits, build virtual construct, test methods of defeating and/or upgrading it.

[Marta Rio]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

You know... if any of this stuff was possible based on 2010 scientific knowledge, we'd have built it. Like the mass relays. Or biotic implants. But if you look at it properly, all of it has some fatal scientific flaw and would never work. I'm just sayin'.

I'm really still more disappointed by the fact that after 30-odd hours of buildup, we got this anticlimactic ending with an overly short and easy "suicide mission" and a preposterous "shoot the obvious bright orange weak spot" boss battle. I didn't think it was cool at all, glaring scientific inaccuracy or not.

Yep.   They didn't really explain why you need organic goo to make a reaper, but that's not what made me cry about the ending...

[binaryemperor]

Mister Mida wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...


Repeating this 10000 times doesn't make this argument valid. Things in SF stories should be plausible, because it's assumed that science is valid in these stories.
 

Not entirely true, look at star wars... since when theres sound in space which is essentially a vacuum?

It is no secret this is done for cinematic effect, just like every sci-fi series/film does.

So basically every scientific implausibility in Sci-Fi is completely unacceptable until the specific implausibility is used enough to where people just get used to it? SHOCKER!

[Solomen]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

NANOTECH VIRUS 
The reapers are bonding with the individual cell. 

We're not playing Metal Gear Solid here. Where the hell does it say that Reapers 'bond with cells'?

Its an obvious "Gray Goo" scenario.  They spend the entire game setting it up.  Read the codex and talk to Legion.

Indoctrination isn't cybernetic (even in the case of the Heretic's program, it's just a program). 'Reaper cells' aren't involved at all. Husks and Scions are created with cybernetics, probably nanotech too--but you can't indoctrinate a cell. It doesn't have a mind to indoctrinate. Saying 'they indoctrinated the cells' is completely different than saying 'they converted the cells with tech'.

Is it really so hard for you to see what I am saying

Yes, because you're saying completely different things than what you appear to actually mean. Precision of language is all we have in forum-based communication, and you're not doing that very well.

It is a physical indoctrination instead of just a mental one.  They are hijacking the cells and repurposing them.  I am saying exactly what I mean.  You are intentionally failing to follow by using a narrow definition.  Reapers use indoctrination to reprogram organics.  Mental indoctrination is the first step.  Physical indoctrination is the next step.  Husks, scions and praetorians are physically indoctrinated.   From what I hear (since I haven't played me1) Saren was being physically indoctrinated, being "Replaced by tech." as Mordin would say. 
It is really very simple