243 réponses à ce sujet

[Daralii]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Tilarta wrote...

inversevideo wrote...
FYI though, Harbinger is not a Prothean reaper.
It was stated, in ME2, that something about the Protheans made them unsuitable for being used to construct a new reaper. So instead, the Protheans were 're-purposed' into Collectors. 

Yes, I do remember EDI saying that.

But it sounded to me like she was speculating without solid evidence to support that theory.

What I assume happens is when the Reapers finish building their new Reaper, they assess the species they defeated to find out if they'll be suitable to convert into Collectors. If they are, the survivors are changed. If they aren't, the Reapers just let them die.

And when I saw Harbinger at the end of the game, he did look different compared to the other Reapers.

Which would support the theory that he's a Prothean Reaper, because each new Reaper doesn't look similar to the others.

 (come to think of it, how are new Collectors made? Do they breed? They're mostly cybernetics, but there's some DNA left in there).

If memory serves, it's stated that it comes from cloning; I'd assume they produce some sort of super-fetus and build up the cybernetic exoskeleton around it.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

You're overthinking it as we don't have all the information about how reapers are made and there is one more game to explain it.

[smudboy]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

You're overthinking it as we don't have all the information about how reapers are made and there is one more game to explain it.

I don't think these guys are overthinking it.

You're assuming they'll bother to tell us in ME3.  ME2 had the perfect opportunity to explain how melted humans=Reaper, or to acknowledge it as something beyond understanding/a mystery.  If they acknolwedged it as a mystery, then yes, I could foresee it being something to be resolved in a sequel.

Shepard: "Not just any Reaper...a human Reaper."
EDI: "Precisely."

[Dethateer]

OP, eezo alone is enough to make science geeks cry, even low-level ones like me. And exactly how are the Husks/Praetorians/Abominations/W/e "way better" than the Strogg?

Modifié par Dethateer, 13 avril 2010 - 07:49 .

[CrazyCatDude]

viverravid wrote...

*wall o' text*

As I understand it, from what was said in game. the reaper smoothie is less about material to build the ship, although there is some of that there, than it is about extracting the human's minds.  The nanotech which melts the people maps all the neural connections, in effect preserving the person's mind, and there by housing it in the reaper.  All that stuff about "We are each a nation".  Well, the nation is the minds of all the humans smoothiefide to make the reaper.  They live in a hive mind state, and the reaper personality is the overmind, which is either an emergent property of the reaperification, or is an AI construct which governs the hive mind.

[Xaijin]

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The method behind the end boss makes sense to me. The reapers work like a mechano-virus, indoctrinating individual cells. By themselves they aren't very bright. A human body full of reaper cells is a mindless zombie as shown by the husks. The more of them jumbled together the more complex they get as shown by scions and praetorians. The reaper ship is like a geth terminal where trillions of reapers are slaved to a core process in a hive mind.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Cells aren't sentient. You can't indoctrinate them. You could change their genetic code to change what they're programmed to do, but that's like saying they're indoctrinating a gear.

NANOTECH VIRUS 
The reapers are bonding with the individual cell. 

We're not playing Metal Gear Solid here. Where the hell does it say that Reapers 'bond with cells'?

Its an obvious "Gray Goo" scenario.  They spend the entire game setting it up.  Read the codex and talk to Legion.

Indoctrination isn't cybernetic (even in the case of the Heretic's program, it's just a program). 'Reaper cells' aren't involved at all. Husks and Scions are created with cybernetics, probably nanotech too--but you can't indoctrinate a cell. It doesn't have a mind to indoctrinate. Saying 'they indoctrinated the cells' is completely different than saying 'they converted the cells with tech'.

Is it really so hard for you to see what I am saying

Yes, because you're saying completely different things than what you appear to actually mean. Precision of language is all we have in forum-based communication, and you're not doing that very well.

It is a physical indoctrination instead of just a mental one.  They are hijacking the cells and repurposing them.  I am saying exactly what I mean.  You are intentionally failing to follow by using a narrow definition.  Reapers use indoctrination to reprogram organics.  Mental indoctrination is the first step.  Physical indoctrination is the next step.  Husks, scions and praetorians are physically indoctrinated.   From what I hear (since I haven't played me1) Saren was being physically indoctrinated, being "Replaced by tech." as Mordin would say. 
It is really very simple

Saren's internals were near completely replaced with Sovereign.

Modifié par Xaijin, 13 avril 2010 - 08:13 .

[Gill Kaiser]

This is a stupid topic, because we know nothing about how Reaper tech interfaces with the DNA. It's a fictional technology, and you can't say that it's implausable because you have nothing to compare it to.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Oh god not you again.

smudboy wrote...
You're assuming they'll bother to tell us in ME3.

You're assuming they won't. Just because EDI made some fast scanning doesn't mean she has all the information to how the reapers are made. She makes a lot of suppositions and that says she hasn't that much precision to explain everything about it.

[cronshaw8]

viverravid wrote...

It's like saying that if you got a crate of Drew Karpyshyn Mass Effect: Revelation novels, rendered them down into pulp and ink, and used the resulting materials with reaper printing technology to create a new epic-length manuscript for a book, that somehow this new book would contain the "essence" of Revelation, only it'd be more epic. No actual writing required - the same characters, same plot outline, same locations (but all reaper-y and more epic) would all show up automagically just because you used the pulp and ink distilled from the original books. How'd they get there? They're in the "essence" of the book, silly. EDI said so.

It is acutally nothing like that. Your metaphor is completly inapt. The information that is contained in a book is not physically present in the molecular structure of the paper and ink. It is in the words. The information contained in a strand of DNA is exactly its molecular structure. Taking a book apart at the molecular level gives you no information about what is in the book and has nothing to do with reading the book. Taking DNA apart at the molecular level is an integral part of "reading" and understanding DNA.
Here is a better metaphor. What the reapers are doing is making juice: human juice. You squeeze an orange, you get orange juice. Drinking orange juice isn't the same as eating an orange,but it still tastes like oranges. That is because what makes oranges taste like oranges is still intact in the orange juice.

Modifié par cronshaw8, 13 avril 2010 - 09:18 .

[Notho]

iNixiRir wrote...

viverravid wrote...
*wall of text*

Yeah, that's why I believe they called it: "Science FICTION" and not "Scientifically True"...

 
Part of his point was about how accurate some of the science of the game has been thus far.

[Xaijin]

Notho wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

viverravid wrote...
*wall of text*

Yeah, that's why I believe they called it: "Science FICTION" and not "Scientifically True"...

 
Part of his point was about how accurate some of the science of the game has been thus far.

except.

1. Indoctrination appears to a be a suite of both active and passive
methods. Given Saren's final resistance, it doesn't appear to be
something that occurs on the genetic or cellular level.



2.
If reapers do have an understanding of Human genetic potential, then
they understand the difference between transitional recessive and active
traits, and what TRNA and "Junk DNA" actually are, which is precisely
why they would require both multiple humans, and humans at different
life stages. This is meta-justified by Solus' "range" speech during his
loyalty mission.



3 A technorganic being such as Reapers appear to be: [Saren] would need
"architectural components" of both organic and inorganic bits to fuse
together.during the building process. One would assume their not going
to just pick the first sample they come across as superior.



4.
They may simply be amassing a broad genetic profile for cherry picking
and or mix and matching of complementary expressions. They sure as hell
don't think small.



5. They may be using the mix to create
an actual virtual "composite human" to better understand how to kill
them or use them when the time comes. Read code, express traits, build
virtual construct, test methods of defeating and/or upgrading it

[curly haired boy]

the human reaper was EASILY the weakest part of the game, for exactly these reasons



i mean the vanguard charge is just as inexplicable, but at least that's fun.



if i'm feeling like rationalization, my explanation is as follows: the "DNA goop" (i love this term, btw) is actually just a bunch of nanomachines dissembling the cells of the humans. the actual organic material is discarded, but as the process is completed, the DNA strands of the cells are analyzed, and their differences are used to "randomize" each nanomachine, injecting a human-flavored diversity. those nanomachines are then subsequently used to build the human reaper, semi-sorta following the general human pattern.



note: this rationalization doesn't really hold up, but neither does the "HUMANITY IS SOOOO DIVERSE" fetish that the ME universe has. in reality, all humans are differentiated by 1% of our total DNA. so take one human, and you've got 99% of our genetic code. out of 3 BILLION base pairs, only 3 MILLION account for all human differences. blah.

[smudboy]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Oh god not you again.

smudboy wrote...
You're assuming they'll bother to tell us in ME3.

You're assuming they won't. Just because EDI made some fast scanning doesn't mean she has all the information to how the reapers are made. She makes a lot of suppositions and that says she hasn't that much precision to explain everything about it.

I'm not making any assumptions at all, since I've no evidence in the narrative to preclude that would not be the case.

I'm sure there's potential if the base doesn't go kablooie, but then that means they'll have to tell a Reaper creation story outside of that choice, ontop of every other thread that didn't go anywhere in ME2.  ME2 was a Reaper creation story with no exposition on the science of how, and why.  It was just humans + blender = human Reaper.  This would've been a good chance to explain at least why Harbinger was doing what it was doing, let alone the importance of the melted Granfaloon was all about.

[smudboy]

CrazyCatDude wrote...

viverravid wrote...

*wall o' text*

As I understand it, from what was said in game. the reaper smoothie is less about material to build the ship, although there is some of that there, than it is about extracting the human's minds.  The nanotech which melts the people maps all the neural connections, in effect preserving the person's mind, and there by housing it in the reaper.  All that stuff about "We are each a nation".  Well, the nation is the minds of all the humans smoothiefide to make the reaper.  They live in a hive mind state, and the reaper personality is the overmind, which is either an emergent property of the reaperification, or is an AI construct which governs the hive mind.

Wow, where are you getting this?  How does human-goo-from-nanomachines that somehow maps ganglia = collective consciousness, if the brain, and everything else, is goop?  Sure, you're using a materialist view of mind, but how does that work if all the nervous system is liquified?  What is this, DS9 shapeshifters "great link" minus the shapeshifting?

[Rocket Weazle]

I just felt the reason it looked human, was because the reapers digitised (and created?)the skeleton from human genetic information. The real issue ofcourse is how IT is actually made, did the collectors work as drones to build it? Did Harbinger give them a reaper dev kit?
Plus couldn't really buy the "genetic paste of millions of humans zomg!" because in the case of husks and scions, they use multiple humans for diferent parts, we don't see any organic material on the human reaper larva, we just see genetic paste being pumped in, where? Why? Who knows, tbf I would've liked it without any genetic paste but instead, the human/reaper's skeletion's rib cage was open, exposing hundreds of huskish humans joined up.
I guess I'll just refer to religious excuses and say "it's all beyond our imagination"

Modifié par Rocket Weazle, 13 avril 2010 - 09:33 .

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Notho wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

viverravid wrote...
*wall of text*

Yeah, that's why I believe they called it: "Science FICTION" and not "Scientifically True"...

 
Part of his point was about how accurate some of the science of the game has been thus far.

Human Reaper is f*cking stupid okay? But NO none of the science in Mass Effect was EVER kind of sort of "accurate" to reality.

The whole idea of Mass Relays is as dumb as using a cannon to fly to the moon.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 13 avril 2010 - 09:48 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Really?

Modifié par ReconTeam, 13 avril 2010 - 09:46 .

[cruc1al]

smudboy wrote...

CrazyCatDude wrote...

viverravid wrote...

*wall o' text*

As I understand it, from what was said in game. the reaper smoothie is less about material to build the ship, although there is some of that there, than it is about extracting the human's minds.  The nanotech which melts the people maps all the neural connections, in effect preserving the person's mind, and there by housing it in the reaper.  All that stuff about "We are each a nation".  Well, the nation is the minds of all the humans smoothiefide to make the reaper.  They live in a hive mind state, and the reaper personality is the overmind, which is either an emergent property of the reaperification, or is an AI construct which governs the hive mind.

Wow, where are you getting this?  How does human-goo-from-nanomachines that somehow maps ganglia = collective consciousness, if the brain, and everything else, is goop?  Sure, you're using a materialist view of mind, but how does that work if all the nervous system is liquified?  What is this, DS9 shapeshifters "great link" minus the shapeshifting?

He said "nanotech [...] maps neural connections". As I understood it, he did not mean that the human brain itself is preserved, but that the information about the connections in each human brain are stored in the nanotech, which then reconstruct the web of connections in some other form in the reaper. This reconstruction is done for each liquefied human brain, thus making each reaper "a nation".

Modifié par cruc1al, 13 avril 2010 - 10:00 .

[JKoopman]

Wait, wait, wait... was there actually a single person out there that didn't think the end boss of ME2 was laughtastically ill-conceived and nonsensical? Because I'm pretty sure the TC is preaching to the choir (albeit in a much more intelligent manner than normal).



Honestly, I've got a lot of problems with ME2 but the trainwreck that was the ending revelation overshadows them all. Suddenly the Reapers went from being a badass race of ancient artificially intelligent machines that can only just barely be destroyed by the combined fleets of the entire Council to a race of sentient "biomechanical" organisms grown from the organic soup of lesser beings that can now be destroyed by a single guy with a machinegun. Way to turn the greatest threat in the galaxy into a bunch of pansies, BioWare...

[Solomen]

At the end of the day it is just a game after all...

It made sense to me though.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

JKoopman wrote...

Wait, wait, wait... was there actually a single person out there that didn't think the end boss of ME2 was laughtastically ill-conceived and nonsensical? Because I'm pretty sure the TC is preaching to the choir (albeit in a much more intelligent manner than normal).

Honestly, I've got a lot of problems with ME2 but the trainwreck that was the ending revelation overshadows them all. Suddenly the Reapers went from being a badass race of ancient artificially intelligent machines that can only just barely be destroyed by the combined fleets of the entire Council to a race of sentient "biomechanical" organisms grown from the organic soup of lesser beings that can now be destroyed by a single guy with a machinegun. Way to turn the greatest threat in the galaxy into a bunch of pansies, BioWare...

Look human reaper is dumb dumb dumb.... but the OP is coming at this from the wrong angle. This whole "ME1 was scientifically sound blahblah" b*llsh*t is just that. Sorry your disbelief wasn't suspended here but the scientific implausibility really had nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with the fact that it's just a really poorly constructed story.

We've known since game 1 what the reapers are up to just not what they did with the materials they gather every cycle. I mean really why do you think they're called Reapers? Well because they harvest all life in the galaxy. Like a crop. Obviously they do something useful with whatever materials they gain from all of this. Now we know what they do with some of it.

And to clarify you never fought a reaper in me2, you fought an incomplete reaper after knocking it off the assemply line. So that ends that argument.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 13 avril 2010 - 10:31 .

[tonnactus]

"Human genetic diversity" make science geeks cry.

[why maker why]

I always figured that they chose the form of a human as an insult.

[NoUserNameHere]

It's Instrumentality. Don't question it!



At least they didn't explode into tang.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

How do you figure? Please enlighten me on how humans having more genetic variance than completely made-up alien species totally defies science.

I don't recall seeing many aliens at all that don't look almost exactly the same as eachother, so it's not hard to believe that those aliens also don't have as much variance when it comes to say...immunity to certain diseases, adaptation to diverse environments, diets etc.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 13 avril 2010 - 10:37 .