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why the end boss makes science geeks cry


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#76
JKoopman

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enormousmoonboots wrote...

Tilarta wrote...

inversevideo wrote...
FYI though, Harbinger is not a Prothean reaper.
It was stated, in ME2, that something about the Protheans made them unsuitable for being used to construct a new reaper. So instead, the Protheans were 're-purposed' into Collectors. 


Yes, I do remember EDI saying that.

But it sounded to me like she was speculating without solid evidence to support that theory.

What I assume happens is when the Reapers finish building their new Reaper, they assess the species they defeated to find out if they'll be suitable to convert into Collectors. If they are, the survivors are changed. If they aren't, the Reapers just let them die.

And when I saw Harbinger at the end of the game, he did look different compared to the other Reapers.

Which would support the theory that he's a Prothean Reaper, because each new Reaper doesn't look similar to the others.

Mmm, I don't buy it. If they could have made a Prothean Reaper, they wouldn't have needed to create the Collectors to give themselves a force in the galaxy. All those Protheans would have been put to better use as goo (come to think of it, how are new Collectors made? Do they breed? They're mostly cybernetics, but there's some DNA left in there).

All of the Reapers look different, presumably because they came from different species. The Collectors look like they were designed after Harbinger, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, since literally the only important exposition we get in the entire game is from EDI (well, and a few lines from Mordin), we have to trust what she says. If ME3 comes around and goes 'well actually everything EDI said was totally wrong', I will personally go to Canada and slap all of the writing staff in the face. It's awful storytelling. Bad enough the second game doesn't have a real villain to explain the antagonist's motivations (you can knock the villainous monologue all you want, but it's useful) and they have to unload all the plot points onto an NPC, but if they turn around and say all of EDI's extrapolations were 'just speculation' it totally invalidates the whole second game. Turns it into 'well, some stuff happened, but hell if I know why'.


Where do people get the idea that all Reapers are unique in appearance?

Image IPB

I see a whole lot of similar looking Reapers in that fleet. True, some look more insectoid than squid-like, but they all share a lot of the same features (even Harbinger is an exact copy of Sovereign) and I certainly don't see any bipedal, humanoid Reapers flying around like the Iron Giant even though bipedal, humanoid lifeforms are apparently quite common in the Mass Effect universe.

The whole "new Reapers are made in the image of the race they were created from" theory just doesn't jive with me.

Modifié par JKoopman, 13 avril 2010 - 10:44 .


#77
BaladasDemnevanni

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

How do you figure? Please enlighten me on how humans having more genetic variance than completely made-up alien species totally defies science.

I don't recall seeing many aliens at all that don't look almost exactly the same as eachother, so it's not hard to believe that those aliens also don't have as much variance when it comes to say...immunity to certain diseases, adaptation to diverse environments, diets etc.


You're right in your conclusion, but Mordin already explains in-game that human genetic diversity has nothing to do with physical appearance. It's not because Asaria, Salarians, whatever look similar to each other.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 13 avril 2010 - 10:53 .


#78
Solomen

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JKoopman wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Tilarta wrote...

inversevideo wrote...
FYI though, Harbinger is not a Prothean reaper.
It was stated, in ME2, that something about the Protheans made them unsuitable for being used to construct a new reaper. So instead, the Protheans were 're-purposed' into Collectors. 


Yes, I do remember EDI saying that.

But it sounded to me like she was speculating without solid evidence to support that theory.

What I assume happens is when the Reapers finish building their new Reaper, they assess the species they defeated to find out if they'll be suitable to convert into Collectors. If they are, the survivors are changed. If they aren't, the Reapers just let them die.

And when I saw Harbinger at the end of the game, he did look different compared to the other Reapers.

Which would support the theory that he's a Prothean Reaper, because each new Reaper doesn't look similar to the others.

Mmm, I don't buy it. If they could have made a Prothean Reaper, they wouldn't have needed to create the Collectors to give themselves a force in the galaxy. All those Protheans would have been put to better use as goo (come to think of it, how are new Collectors made? Do they breed? They're mostly cybernetics, but there's some DNA left in there).

All of the Reapers look different, presumably because they came from different species. The Collectors look like they were designed after Harbinger, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, since literally the only important exposition we get in the entire game is from EDI (well, and a few lines from Mordin), we have to trust what she says. If ME3 comes around and goes 'well actually everything EDI said was totally wrong', I will personally go to Canada and slap all of the writing staff in the face. It's awful storytelling. Bad enough the second game doesn't have a real villain to explain the antagonist's motivations (you can knock the villainous monologue all you want, but it's useful) and they have to unload all the plot points onto an NPC, but if they turn around and say all of EDI's extrapolations were 'just speculation' it totally invalidates the whole second game. Turns it into 'well, some stuff happened, but hell if I know why'.


Where do people get the idea that all Reapers are unique in appearance?

Image IPB

I see a whole lot of similar looking Reapers in that fleet. True, some look more insectoid than squid-like, but they all share a lot of the same features and I certainly don't see any bipedal, humanoid Reapers flying around like the Iron Giant even though bipedal, humanoid lifeforms are apparently quite common in the Mass Effect universe.

The whole "new Reapers are made in the image of the race they were created from" theory just doesn't jive with me.


Are any of those nearly as small as the human reaper Image IPB for all you know the main core of each ship resembles the creature that was "reaped" to make it.  The actual reaper is a hive Image IPB

#79
tonnactus

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ThePasserby wrote...

They might, eventually, use just one DNA from which to "grow" a Reaper, but right now, they're still putting together an "ideal" DNA from their millions of samples.


If they know what is ideal, they would use only one sample and tailor it this way with gentech.
The Story of Mass Effect 2 is complete and utter junk.Like uwe boll movies.

#80
FlyingBrickyard

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Eh. Suspension of disbelief.

The entire premise of the game is shaky, scientifically.

And there's some recent research to suggest that even if FTL travel were possible, it'd be instantly fatal because the doses of radiation and energy delivered per second would make standing in the beam of the fully ramped LHC look completely benign.

Too much science in "science fiction" kills the "fiction".

What matters most to me is that they establish a world that's at least plausible on the surface or at least to some reasonably shallow depth and then stick to it and remain internally consistant.

I can forgive a lot if they at least do that, because who am I to say it isn't taking place in some alternate universe where the rules are generally familiar but ever so slightly different?

Modifié par FlyingBrickyard, 13 avril 2010 - 10:57 .


#81
tonnactus

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

How do you figure? Please enlighten me on how humans having more genetic variance than completely made-up alien species totally defies science.


Lol, gameplay or what? I see a lot of humans that also look the same,like aliens.(Mirandas sister look like one engineer on the normandy)

Older races have a bigger genetic diversity.The biggest genetic diversity have african people on earth..(as humans)
That is the place where humanity developed.
Human race have th smallest genetic deversity even on earth.

Modifié par tonnactus, 13 avril 2010 - 10:59 .


#82
JKoopman

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Solomen wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Tilarta wrote...

inversevideo wrote...
FYI though, Harbinger is not a Prothean reaper.
It was stated, in ME2, that something about the Protheans made them unsuitable for being used to construct a new reaper. So instead, the Protheans were 're-purposed' into Collectors. 


Yes, I do remember EDI saying that.

But it sounded to me like she was speculating without solid evidence to support that theory.

What I assume happens is when the Reapers finish building their new Reaper, they assess the species they defeated to find out if they'll be suitable to convert into Collectors. If they are, the survivors are changed. If they aren't, the Reapers just let them die.

And when I saw Harbinger at the end of the game, he did look different compared to the other Reapers.

Which would support the theory that he's a Prothean Reaper, because each new Reaper doesn't look similar to the others.

Mmm, I don't buy it. If they could have made a Prothean Reaper, they wouldn't have needed to create the Collectors to give themselves a force in the galaxy. All those Protheans would have been put to better use as goo (come to think of it, how are new Collectors made? Do they breed? They're mostly cybernetics, but there's some DNA left in there).

All of the Reapers look different, presumably because they came from different species. The Collectors look like they were designed after Harbinger, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, since literally the only important exposition we get in the entire game is from EDI (well, and a few lines from Mordin), we have to trust what she says. If ME3 comes around and goes 'well actually everything EDI said was totally wrong', I will personally go to Canada and slap all of the writing staff in the face. It's awful storytelling. Bad enough the second game doesn't have a real villain to explain the antagonist's motivations (you can knock the villainous monologue all you want, but it's useful) and they have to unload all the plot points onto an NPC, but if they turn around and say all of EDI's extrapolations were 'just speculation' it totally invalidates the whole second game. Turns it into 'well, some stuff happened, but hell if I know why'.


Where do people get the idea that all Reapers are unique in appearance?

Image IPB

I see a whole lot of similar looking Reapers in that fleet. True, some look more insectoid than squid-like, but they all share a lot of the same features and I certainly don't see any bipedal, humanoid Reapers flying around like the Iron Giant even though bipedal, humanoid lifeforms are apparently quite common in the Mass Effect universe.

The whole "new Reapers are made in the image of the race they were created from" theory just doesn't jive with me.


Are any of those nearly as small as the human reaper Image IPB for all you know the main core of each ship resembles the creature that was "reaped" to make it.  The actual reaper is a hive Image IPB


Which is an equally retarded explaination that I have a hard time buying. Why would a race of sentient machines "reproduce" by contructing a biomechanical inner machine that looks totally unique and then encasing said machine inside another machine shell so it looks identicle to every other sentient machine? Why not simply... make the sentient machine in it's already completed form? That's like building an oil tanker by first constructing it around the wooden frame of a rowboat.

Furthermore, why when Sovereign was destroyed did we not see the giant robo-skeleton of some long-dead alien race pop out? To me it just looked like debris from a gigantic starship complete with inner chambers and living space for crew, circuits and other expected junk; which is what you'd expect from a rampant AI-controlled ship and not a biomechanical skeleton encased in armor.

Modifié par JKoopman, 13 avril 2010 - 11:03 .


#83
BaladasDemnevanni

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tonnactus wrote...

Gameplay or what?I see a lot of humans that also look the same,like aliens.

Older races have a bigger genetic diversity.The biggest genetic diversity have african people on earth..(as humans)
That is the place where humanity developed.
Human race have th smallest genetic deversity even on earth.


And when have you ever studied the genetic diversity of Asari, Salarians, Turians, etc? All these criticisms rely on our own notions of science, which do not take into account the full scope of the ME universe. We may have the smallest genetic diversity on Earth; all these other species are not from Earth. They can potentially have even less diverse genetic structures than we do, making us seem quite varied.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 13 avril 2010 - 11:04 .


#84
TheLostGenius

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You don't have to be a science geek to be baffled by the ridiculous-ness. In terms of playability it was "more fun" than Saren. But plot-wise it was almost like "jumping the shark. Let's just hope we don't have to fight "embryo human reapers" in ME3.

#85
Bucky_McLachlan

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tonnactus wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

How do you figure? Please enlighten me on how humans having more genetic variance than completely made-up alien species totally defies science.


Lol, gameplay or what? I see a lot of humans that also look the same,like aliens.(Mirandas sister look like one engineer on the normandy)

Older races have a bigger genetic diversity.The biggest genetic diversity have african people on earth..(as humans)
That is the place where humanity developed.
Human race have th smallest genetic deversity even on earth.

I just want you to know you're an idiot and your posts make no sense at all.

#86
Bucky_McLachlan

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TheLostGenius wrote...

You don't have to be a science geek to be baffled by the ridiculous-ness. In terms of playability it was "more fun" than Saren. But plot-wise it was almost like "jumping the shark. Let's just hope we don't have to fight "embryo human reapers" in ME3.

Do you even know what jumping the shark means?

Oh and Super Saiyan Saren at the end of ME1 was just as every bit as ridiculous, scientifically.

#87
TheLostGenius

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

You don't have to be a science geek to be baffled by the ridiculous-ness. In terms of playability it was "more fun" than Saren. But plot-wise it was almost like "jumping the shark. Let's just hope we don't have to fight "embryo human reapers" in ME3.

Do you even know what jumping the shark means?

Oh and Super Saiyan Saren at the end of ME1 was just as every bit as ridiculous, scientifically.




Yea it means a franchise destroying gimmick is used. Or in other terms, they ran out of ideas, and its only going to get worse (leading to failure). I'm exaggerating a bit, I'm sure it will be very fun. (me3)

#88
tonnactus

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


And when have you ever studied the genetic diversity of Asari, Salarians, Turians, etc? All these criticisms rely on our own notions of science, which do not take into account the full scope of the ME universe. We may have the smallest genetic diversity on Earth; all these other species are not from Earth. They can potentially have even less diverse genetic structures than we do, making us seem quite varied.


Older races,with a lot of colonies(and adepted to the differente climate of planets) have bigger genetic diversity then the young human race,not less. It this so hard to understand?Science fiction fans never read actual science news or what??

Modifié par tonnactus, 13 avril 2010 - 11:13 .


#89
tonnactus

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

I just want you to know you're an idiot and your posts make no sense at all.


You are just to dumb to understand them.

#90
Bucky_McLachlan

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TheLostGenius wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

You
don't have to be a science geek to be baffled by the ridiculous-ness.
In terms of playability it was "more fun" than Saren. But plot-wise it
was almost like "jumping the shark. Let's just hope we don't have to
fight "embryo human reapers" in ME3.

Do you even know what jumping the shark means?

Oh and Super Saiyan Saren at the end of ME1 was just as every bit as ridiculous, scientifically.




Yea
it means a franchise destroying gimmick is used. Or in other terms,
they ran out of ideas, and its only going to get worse (leading to
failure). I'm exaggerating a bit, I'm sure it will be very fun. (me3)


No that's not really it. Jumping the shark is a term that refers to the point where a series has reached it's peak, from then on there is no possibility other than that it will go downhill.

Human reaper was anything but the peak of this series.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 13 avril 2010 - 11:15 .


#91
Solomen

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JKoopman wrote...

Solomen wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Tilarta wrote...

inversevideo wrote...
FYI though, Harbinger is not a Prothean reaper.
It was stated, in ME2, that something about the Protheans made them unsuitable for being used to construct a new reaper. So instead, the Protheans were 're-purposed' into Collectors. 


Yes, I do remember EDI saying that.

But it sounded to me like she was speculating without solid evidence to support that theory.

What I assume happens is when the Reapers finish building their new Reaper, they assess the species they defeated to find out if they'll be suitable to convert into Collectors. If they are, the survivors are changed. If they aren't, the Reapers just let them die.

And when I saw Harbinger at the end of the game, he did look different compared to the other Reapers.

Which would support the theory that he's a Prothean Reaper, because each new Reaper doesn't look similar to the others.

Mmm, I don't buy it. If they could have made a Prothean Reaper, they wouldn't have needed to create the Collectors to give themselves a force in the galaxy. All those Protheans would have been put to better use as goo (come to think of it, how are new Collectors made? Do they breed? They're mostly cybernetics, but there's some DNA left in there).

All of the Reapers look different, presumably because they came from different species. The Collectors look like they were designed after Harbinger, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, since literally the only important exposition we get in the entire game is from EDI (well, and a few lines from Mordin), we have to trust what she says. If ME3 comes around and goes 'well actually everything EDI said was totally wrong', I will personally go to Canada and slap all of the writing staff in the face. It's awful storytelling. Bad enough the second game doesn't have a real villain to explain the antagonist's motivations (you can knock the villainous monologue all you want, but it's useful) and they have to unload all the plot points onto an NPC, but if they turn around and say all of EDI's extrapolations were 'just speculation' it totally invalidates the whole second game. Turns it into 'well, some stuff happened, but hell if I know why'.


Where do people get the idea that all Reapers are unique in appearance?

Image IPB

I see a whole lot of similar looking Reapers in that fleet. True, some look more insectoid than squid-like, but they all share a lot of the same features and I certainly don't see any bipedal, humanoid Reapers flying around like the Iron Giant even though bipedal, humanoid lifeforms are apparently quite common in the Mass Effect universe.

The whole "new Reapers are made in the image of the race they were created from" theory just doesn't jive with me.


Are any of those nearly as small as the human reaper Image IPB for all you know the main core of each ship resembles the creature that was "reaped" to make it.  The actual reaper is a hive Image IPB


Which is an equally retarded explaination that I have a hard time buying. Why would a race of sentient machines "reproduce" by contructing a biomechanical inner machine that looks totally unique and then encasing said machine inside another machine shell so it looks identicle to every other sentient machine? Why not simply... make the sentient machine in it's already completed form? That's like building an oil tanker by first constructing it around the wooden frame of a rowboat.

Furthermore, why when Sovereign was destroyed did we not see the giant robo-skeleton of some long-dead alien race pop out? To me it just looked like debris from a gigantic starship complete with inner chambers and living space for crew, circuits and other expected junk; which is what you'd expect from a rampant AI-controlled ship and not a biomechanical skeleton encased in armor.


And you explored every nook and cranny of Sovereign when?

You also aren't taking into account the level of integration.  I'm sure if the human reaper had been completed it would have looked nearly the same as any of the others.  A human embryo looks like a tadpole.  Do humans look like tadpoles? Image IPB 

#92
BaladasDemnevanni

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tonnactus wrote...

Older races,with a lot of colonies(and adepted to the differente climate of planets) have bigger genetic diversity then the young human race,not less. It this so hard to understand?Science fiction fans never read actual science news or what??


Again, have you ever done experiments on an actual Asari, Krogan, Salarian? Until then, all your arguments are null and void. You are using logic which only can only be applied to creatures of Earth. Think a little bit.

#93
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Is your life =so= empty you can put together twenty paragraphs to express a single sentence:



"It's a video game!"

#94
Sand King

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

"It's a video game!"


Some one finally got it. 

#95
Bucky_McLachlan

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HI I'M NOT SCIENTIFICALLY PLAUSIBLE

Image IPB

I'M NOT SCIENTIFICALLY PLAUSIBLE EITHER.

Image IPB

ME NEITHER.


Image IPB

BUT I'M STILL 100% LESS STUPID THAN THAT GIANT TERMINATOR/CONTRA RIP OFF!


Image IPB

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 13 avril 2010 - 11:34 .


#96
enforcer2578

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spacehamsterZH wrote...

You know... if any of this stuff was possible based on 2010 scientific knowledge, we'd have built it. Like the mass relays. Or biotic implants. But if you look at it properly, all of it has some fatal scientific flaw and would never work. I'm just sayin'.

I'm really still more disappointed by the fact that after 30-odd hours of buildup, we got this anticlimactic ending with an overly short and easy "suicide mission" and a preposterous "shoot the obvious bright orange weak spot" boss battle. I didn't think it was cool at all, glaring scientific inaccuracy or not.


We haven't built it yet, not because it is impossible only because we haven't figured out how to make it possible.

We have Biotic implants currently.  There are numerous integrated circuit chips designed to integrate into organic nervous systems and augement or replace their functions (prostetics that allow the person to feel heat, cold, pressure, limited tactile senses). 

Among those there are chips designed to allow a user to control inorganic machinery (robotic arms not only in the same room but miles away). 

AND

There is actually technology available publicly and commercially that allow you to control your computer via only your thoughts, even a children's toy that allows you to play using only your thoughts.  (A game controller that is a head piece worn on the head that allows you to interact with various computer games via only thought; and a Jedi training game that you put on your table, and using the included headpiece, allows you to lift a ball by just thinking it.  You are scored accordingly on your ease of doing the task presented by a virtual Yoda who instructs you as you play the game)

The age of science-fiction being fiction is slowly disappearing.  We are living in Science-Fiction turned reality right now.

Nothing is impossible, we have only to figure out how to make it possible.

#97
RyuGuitarFreak

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smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Oh god not you again.

smudboy wrote...
You're assuming they'll bother to tell us in ME3.


You're assuming they won't. Just because EDI made some fast scanning doesn't mean she has all the information to how the reapers are made. She makes a lot of suppositions and that says she hasn't that much precision to explain everything about it.

I'm not making any assumptions at all, since I've no evidence in the narrative to preclude that would not be the case.

I'm sure there's potential if the base doesn't go kablooie, but then that means they'll have to tell a Reaper creation story outside of that choice, ontop of every other thread that didn't go anywhere in ME2.  ME2 was a Reaper creation story with no exposition on the science of how, and why.  It was just humans + blender = human Reaper.  This would've been a good chance to explain at least why Harbinger was doing what it was doing, let alone the importance of the melted Granfaloon was all about.

Dude, wtf? Bioware is not limited to how you think the story will progress in ME3. I agree with you that ME2 would be the perfect time to talk about how EXACTLY to they point no questions get left of how they are created. But they could come with something on ME3 that the clue of how to DESTROY the reapers is related to their creation and then you figure all about it, simple. That was just an example. Besides, the Collectors are just tools for the reapers, the real information should be with Harbinger, who is supposed to come back in ME3.

#98
Noble 1

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viverravid wrote...

After about 8 playthroughs, I wanted to write a bit about why I was so disappointed with the story explanation for the end boss. The actual fight, like all of ME2's gameplay, is fantastic, and I think ME2 is a massive improvement over ME1 in every way - except the main story arc.

Before I complain, I just want to emphasize that - ME2 is brilliant and better than ME1 in almost every way. Combat, music, characterization, quest design, combat, music, voice acting, sound effects, combat, music, animation, lighting, did I mention the combat and the music? - all great. The main story is the only let down (and it's only disappointing relative to the high standard of ME1)

The contradictions and ret-cons to the ME1 story have been discussed here at length, I just want to focus on the end boss and the resolution of the collector abduction mystery. Up until that point, Mass Effect had probably the most plausible scientific explanations of plot and gameplay devices of any sci-fi game (or sci-if movie or TV show) ever. It seemed pretty clear the writers had consulted with astronomers, physicists, and biologists in building the universe. Key plot points like the Genophage are scientifically informed and plausible. Even the planet details on the galaxy map seem right (to my limited physics). And from early on in ME2, we learn that the central mystery motivating the bad guys probably has something to do with a unique aspect of human biology. Cool.

Throughout the game, we get hints of why the collectors need to abduct humans. Via Husks, Scions, and Praetorians we can see that they are using humans as raw material to make shock troops. This makes sense - these creatures are clearly built from the remains of adult humans, repurposed to become weapons of the reapers. We've seen the husks created that way in ME1. It's a bit like the Strogg in Quakes 2 & 4, but way better. Using abducted colonists as raw material for this process makes sense. That they have to be human makes sense - perhaps the modifications don't work right with other races biology. Perhaps they developed these techniques on humans and they're sticking with what they know. Plenty to speculate about, and it all makes sense.

But then in the collector base we learn that the bulk of the humans aren't being repurposed in this way, but are being rendered down into a raw "genetic paste", which is somehow the "essence" of humans, and it is being used to... make a giant robot that looks like a human skeleton. Why does it look like a human? Because it's made from the "essence" of humans, of course. EDI tells us this, and she isn't ever wrong.

Now, the human reaper looks badass and bioware lose no points for emphasising cool looks over scientific believability. But.... the story explanation is just silly. Really silly. Really really silly. There is no reason a giant pile of human DNA goop should develop into something that looks like a giant human - unless of course you poured it into a giant human-shaped mould. But if you're just doing that, you could use DNA goop from anywhere
. You could even synthesize it. Or you could even, like, maybe, use super strong metal alloys instead. These reapers are supposed to be smart, after all. Why mould yourself out of DNA goop if you could be using unobtanium alloy?

It's like saying that if you got a crate of Drew Karpyshyn Mass Effect: Revelation novels, rendered them down into pulp and ink, and used the resulting materials with reaper printing technology to create a new epic-length manuscript for a book, that somehow this new book would contain the "essence" of Revelation, only it'd be more epic. No actual writing required - the same characters, same plot outline, same locations (but all reaper-y and more epic) would all show up automagically just because you used the pulp and ink distilled from the original books. How'd they get there? They're in the "essence" of the book, silly. EDI said so.

Why is it silly? All any gene actually does is describe how to make a particular protein by joining a series of amino acids together. Human DNA is basically a giant dictionary listing how to "spell" different proteins (though maybe 90 odd percent of it is just unused random letters that have never been deleted) Human DNA is a recipe for making a human only when it is in the nucleus of a human cell. For example, In a newly fertilised human egg cell, there is more of one chemical at one end of the egg than the other. Where this chemical is in high concentration, it turns some genes on, where it's low, it turns other genes on. When a gene is turned on, machinery inside the cell starts creating some of the protein it "spells". This protein may alter the cells around it, or it may turn other genes on or off, which then make other proteins which alter cells or turn other genes on or off, which then make other proteins which alter cells or turn other genes on or off,  which then make... etc etc. From that initial imbalance of one chemical, a whole sequence of actions happens that eventually turns into a head at one end and a tail at the other. (And then later you lose the tail, thankfully)

To put it simply - when human DNA is in a fertilised human egg cell, with all the cellular machinery for translating DNA sequences into protein chains and all the surrounding environment of the womb, a whole cascade of things happens, each step depending on the step before it and the immediate environment, and all that eventually builds a human. Outside that environment, one pile of DNA is pretty much the same as any other pile of DNA. It doesn't retain the 'essence' of the creature it came from. The 'essence' comes from the interaction of the DNA code reading machinery and the "letters" spelled out by a string of DNA code. The code letters on their own are useless.

Same as all 5 1/4" computer discs being pretty much all the same useless hunks of plastic and iron oxide as each other these days, unless you still have a 5 1/4" disk drive equipped computer to read them with.

So what if I make a biiiiig stretch and assume that actually the human reaper was being created through some kind of analog of human embryonic development, where the harvested human DNA code was somehow controlling the sequence of building the human reaper larva, just scaled up and altered by reaper tech. Well, then the reapers still wouldn't need the DNA from gazillions of humans. Just one cell from one person would give you the code. 

Again, it's like saying that to make a mile-high version of the Mass Effect: Ascension novel you need to pulp thousands of Ascension novels to provide the raw material, rather than the obvious solution of building the giant version out of concrete or steel and just copying the words from one copy of Ascension .

So lets make a bigger stretch and assume the reaper is being grown from actual human cells, fortified by super-reaper-tech, and that's what the colonists were being rendered down into - a paste of still-living human cells. Even then, if you needed human cells to build the thing from, you could just clone them all from an initial cell. In fact you would have to clone them all from one initial cell, otherwise they wouldn't have the reaper-tech-altered build-a-human-reaper DNA sequence required. When a human grows, there isn't the DNA in one cell controlling the whole process, each new cell has it's own copy of the same instructions. It works because they're all reading from the same script. Building a reaper using a mixture of different cells with different DNA from millions of genetically diverse humans is a recipe for epic cancer.

I guess I could be really really generous and assume that the reapers are just constructing the human-reaper from liquified humans as a psych warfare tactic - so they can kill you with your own grandmothers liquified corpse. And they made it look like a skeleton just to make it look scarier. And poor EDI was just confused and making stuff up to cover for it, knowing Shepard skipped genetics 101 and wouldn't notice. (Maybe that's why Mordin dies so easily holding the line at the end - so he won't pipe up and point out the giant genetic plot holes).

I won't complain if the human reaper larva and collector abductions get the ME2 liara treatment in ME3. Ret-con and derail away, please!


Where did it say they are only the goop?  Reapers are made using the genetic goop, but much of them, including their shape, is determined by the metals, circuits, tech etc.

It's asinine to assume its only our genetic paste which makes them.  Also, by essence, they mean our genetic code, which determines our shape, disposition, actions, etc.

Next, I believe the Turian in the club in the Citadel said it best, "The universe love diversity."  Why would it not be helpful to get as large a sample size of human genes as possible?

#99
JKoopman

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

You
don't have to be a science geek to be baffled by the ridiculous-ness.
In terms of playability it was "more fun" than Saren. But plot-wise it
was almost like "jumping the shark. Let's just hope we don't have to
fight "embryo human reapers" in ME3.

Do you even know what jumping the shark means?

Oh and Super Saiyan Saren at the end of ME1 was just as every bit as ridiculous, scientifically.




Yea
it means a franchise destroying gimmick is used. Or in other terms,
they ran out of ideas, and its only going to get worse (leading to
failure). I'm exaggerating a bit, I'm sure it will be very fun. (me3)


No that's not really it. Jumping the shark is a term that refers to the point where a series has reached it's peak, from then on there is no possibility other than that it will go downhill.

Human reaper was anything but the peak of this series.


I'm pretty sure Fonzie jumping a shark on waterskis couldn't in any way be construed as the "peak" of Happy Days when it's universally considered to be one of the most laughably stupid moments in television history...

From Wikipedia:

"Jumping the shark is an idiom use to describe the moment of downturn for a previously successful
enterprise. The phrase was originally used to denote the point in a television program's history where the plot spins off into absurd story lines or unlikely characterizations. These changes were often the result of efforts to revive interest in a show whose viewership has begun to decline, usually through the employment of different actors, writers or producers."

So "jumping the shark" sounds about right for the human Reaper "twist" in ME2.

Modifié par JKoopman, 13 avril 2010 - 11:42 .


#100
Archereon

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

You don't have to be a science geek to be baffled by the ridiculous-ness. In terms of playability it was "more fun" than Saren. But plot-wise it was almost like "jumping the shark. Let's just hope we don't have to fight "embryo human reapers" in ME3.

Do you even know what jumping the shark means?

Oh and Super Saiyan Saren at the end of ME1 was just as every bit as ridiculous, scientifically.




Not really, so long as his implants were comprehensive enough to function without him being alive, its somewhat plausible.