243 réponses à ce sujet

[Solomen]

TheLostGenius wrote...

The part that makes me cry is when Harbinger tells me that he is going to hurt me. I cry with fear each time. He is so scary.

"Bring back Shepard's body, even if you must kill him."

[Ecael]

Up until that point, Mass Effect had probably the most plausible scientific explanations of plot and gameplay devices of any sci-fi game (or sci-if movie or TV show) ever.

[JMA22TB]

Solomen wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The reapers also don't trust geth...  They're just going to eradicate them all when they get the chance.  Why give them access to technology that could bite them in their dreadnaught sized collective butts

Oh, yeah, that does make sense. The Reapers never liked using the geth anyway, Sovereign only did it because he had to.

And JMA, possibly the reason Sovereign took so many geth with him to attack the Citadel was because he needed them in a pinch. He needed an invasion force.

He probably couldn't use the Collectors for that, they wouldn't be well suited to it. There may not be enough of them for them to survive a full on assault and still be useful later for their Reaper making purposes.

Exactly. The geth were a military tool which is why they would also be deployed at the Collector base - defend the project and make sure no one messes with it. Assuming the project was meant to be completed, which I don't believe it was.

The geth were a potential rival.  The reapers may have used them at the citadel as shock troops but that was because shortly afterward they would destroy them all
Now that the citadel plan has fallen through the reapers cannot afford the geth becoming more advanced.

The collectors have no potential to rise up against the reapers.  The only one that could have was the collector general, and only after Harbinger abandoned the base. 

None of that matters if the entire fleet comes in - besides, the Heretics served the Reapers and would continue to do so, especially if they converted the main populace of the geth.

Again, the Reapers didn't even try to defend the Collectors should someone get through the Omega 4 relay and they could have used a humongous amount of geth to do so, but didn't. Something's not right with this picture.

[Solomen]

People seem to forget how arrogant the reapers are. Why would they think a bunch of unascended mortals could find their oh so secret base? Pond scum can't think at the same level as gods now can it?

They underestimate Shepard every step of the way because in their minds there is no way he can win. He's just a slightly more dangerous form of pond scum to them.

[Revan312]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

I'm no science geek, but I'll attempt to present a counterargument.

You have to remember that the Reapers are at least 37,000,000 years old. Their technology is far, far, far more advanced. Who knows what they're capable of?

If they're that far advanced, as we have been led to believe, they wouldn't need quirky, half-baked plans involving millions of cans of cream of human soup to reproduce, they would simply use cloning technology or just build more of themselves out of common materials found in asteroids or terrestrial planets.

In terms of humanity becoming goo, one could argue that the nanomachines are breaking humanity into their basest components, sorting out the useful ones and discarding the useless ones. They could use organic material to help forge some strange alloys- isn't carbon a pretty common part of many alloys?- that we haven't discovered yet, or don't know how to make.

Carbon is EVERYWHERE, it's the 4th most common material/element/isotope in our entire galaxy and most likely the universe.  If that's all they needed they could just mine about a billion different planets and get millions of times more carbon than what they needed. The human body is composed of 60 chemical elements, 50 of which constitute such a small percentage of our bodies that they're considered trace matter.  There is nothing in the human body that is unique or uncommon as even amino acids and peptides have been created in labs as of late.

As the nanobots gooify the human prisoners, they also analyze and store the data of the brain of the person. Though they can't capture the actual being within, they manage to capture enough of the "essence" to make it useful. They look for links between humans, and craft an artificial intelligence using the basis of all humans. They try and give it the essence of all the humans through something not dissimilar to a geth network, to allow the program to second-guess itself, and achieve total sapience.

Besides the fact that this a complete assumption and never hinted at, having millions of human minds "analyzed" would take thousands of years as the amount of variables in the brain is staggering.  Let alone the fact that they would need to experiment on every single one with the plethora of different chemicals and neurotransmitters our brains use to even get a round about guess as to how a single mind operates during varius conditions or circumstances.  That would be completely impracticle in the time crunch the reapers have.

As for why it's similar to humans, crafting something out of the data of thousands of human minds has got to have a few things for that mind to find "familiar". They're not trying to build a Reaper using humans as inspiration, they're trying to integrate everything that is best about humanity to themselves, to gain it's strengths.

When Sovereign talks with Shepard in ME1, he views humanity as just another organic species. When Sovereign is destroyed, the Reapers are forced to reevaluate the humans, and deem them "worthy" of "ascension". Why just destroy humanity when you can turn them into one of you?

But that's the thing, the reapers are supposedly the most advanced "species" the universe has ever seen and have lived for, as you said, millions of years.  They must know that running humans through a juicer and using the slush to create another reaper isn't "ascending" the humans in any way, it's just using their biological material to craft a body.  To the point about them wanting to integrate the "best aspects" of humanity into themselves, well just watch them for a while, you don't need to liquefy an entire civilization in order to adopt their political system or beliefs.  Also, if we are to believe this is even how it would work, the reapers would also, in addition to gaining the 'strengths' of our species, gain the horrendous weaknesses of humans.

We also have to realize that the Reapers are not just machines. They're sentient. They have a long standing history. They have rituals, they have emotions. They have traditions, one of which may be the process they're putting humanity through.

Except it's a wide spread belief in anthropology that the longer a civilization is exposed peacefully to other civilizatations with differeing beliefs and practices that those beliefs begin to wain over time or merge together or disappear completely. 

Also, the further technology goes the more and more explanations come to light that would have been explained through religion or ritualistic beliefs but are now scientifically proven.  Again, as you said, the reapers are millions and millions of years old and have been observing the practices of countless races and species, it would be very easy to assume that they would hold no such superstitions or beliefs pertaining to "ascension" as they would have seen the number of radically different religions that had all been crushed under the heel of the reaper fleet.

The end of ME2 was not a good time to explain everything. "Oh, my teammates are under fire by your forces, I'll just stand here and talk to you about things. I'm sure they'll wait, too."

I expect a long, drawn out conversation with a Reaper, similar to the Sovereign conversation. I expect everything about them to be explained then.

I personally would have loved to hear the ridiculous explenation they would have given for this super contrived ending.  I'm sure they didn't because they had no idea how to fully explain it and will simply retcon or forget about this in ME3 as any discussion centered around the last boss is gonna be ludicrous.

Don't forget, Bioware has had everything planned out since Day 1 on Mass Effect. I'm sure they didn't just shoehorn this in for the hell of it. And since everything else is well explained, this will be too.

That's never been proven that they have had this all planned out since day 1 (they said the same about the matrix trilogy and look how that mess turned out) and if they really did have it all written in advance, then this middle chapter has always been poorley constructed, shoehorn or not.

Finally people really need to stop looking at this franchise as "science fiction" and view it in the fantasy genre.  There's enough completely unscientific and impossible circumstances in these games that it really does tread into the fantasy realm.  Remember, just because its setting is in the future and involves spaceships and lasers doesn't mean it's got anything to do with science (Star Wars I'm looking at you).

[Solomen]

The reapers are giant von neumann probes gone rogue.

[Nightwriter]

Oompa-loompas frighten me.

[Solomen]

Revan312 wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...

I'm no science geek, but I'll attempt to present a counterargument.

You have to remember that the Reapers are at least 37,000,000 years old. Their technology is far, far, far more advanced. Who knows what they're capable of?

If they're that far advanced, as we have been led to believe, they wouldn't need quirky, half-baked plans involving millions of cans of cream of human soup to reproduce, they would simply use cloning technology or just build more of themselves out of common materials found in asteroids or terrestrial planets.

In terms of humanity becoming goo, one could argue that the nanomachines are breaking humanity into their basest components, sorting out the useful ones and discarding the useless ones. They could use organic material to help forge some strange alloys- isn't carbon a pretty common part of many alloys?- that we haven't discovered yet, or don't know how to make.

Carbon is EVERYWHERE, it's the 4th most common material/element/isotope in our entire galaxy and most likely the universe.  If that's all they needed they could just mine about a billion different planets and get millions of times more carbon than what they needed. The human body is composed of 60 chemical elements, 50 of which constitute such a small percentage of our bodies that they're considered trace matter.  There is nothing in the human body that is unique or uncommon as even amino acids and peptides have been created in labs as of late.

As the nanobots gooify the human prisoners, they also analyze and store the data of the brain of the person. Though they can't capture the actual being within, they manage to capture enough of the "essence" to make it useful. They look for links between humans, and craft an artificial intelligence using the basis of all humans. They try and give it the essence of all the humans through something not dissimilar to a geth network, to allow the program to second-guess itself, and achieve total sapience.

Besides the fact that this a complete assumption and never hinted at, having millions of human minds "analyzed" would take thousands of years as the amount of variables in the brain is staggering.  Let alone the fact that they would need to experiment on every single one with the plethora of different chemicals and neurotransmitters our brains use to even get a round about guess as to how a single mind operates during varius conditions or circumstances.  That would be completely impracticle in the time crunch the reapers have.

As for why it's similar to humans, crafting something out of the data of thousands of human minds has got to have a few things for that mind to find "familiar". They're not trying to build a Reaper using humans as inspiration, they're trying to integrate everything that is best about humanity to themselves, to gain it's strengths.

When Sovereign talks with Shepard in ME1, he views humanity as just another organic species. When Sovereign is destroyed, the Reapers are forced to reevaluate the humans, and deem them "worthy" of "ascension". Why just destroy humanity when you can turn them into one of you?

But that's the thing, the reapers are supposedly the most advanced "species" the universe has ever seen and have lived for, as you said, millions of years.  They must know that running humans through a juicer and using the slush to create another reaper isn't "ascending" the humans in any way, it's just using their biological material to craft a body.  To the point about them wanting to integrate the "best aspects" of humanity into themselves, well just watch them for a while, you don't need to liquefy an entire civilization in order to adopt their political system or beliefs.  Also, if we are to believe this is even how it would work, the reapers would also, in addition to gaining the 'strengths' of our species, gain the horrendous weaknesses of humans.

We also have to realize that the Reapers are not just machines. They're sentient. They have a long standing history. They have rituals, they have emotions. They have traditions, one of which may be the process they're putting humanity through.

Except it's a wide spread belief in anthropology that the longer a civilization is exposed peacefully to other civilizatations with differeing beliefs and practices that those beliefs begin to wain over time or merge together or disappear completely. 

Also, the further technology goes the more and more explanations come to light that would have been explained through religion or ritualistic beliefs but are now scientifically proven.  Again, as you said, the reapers are millions and millions of years old and have been observing the practices of countless races and species, it would be very easy to assume that they would hold no such superstitions or beliefs pertaining to "ascension" as they would have seen the number of radically different religions that had all been crushed under the heel of the reaper fleet.

The end of ME2 was not a good time to explain everything. "Oh, my teammates are under fire by your forces, I'll just stand here and talk to you about things. I'm sure they'll wait, too."

I expect a long, drawn out conversation with a Reaper, similar to the Sovereign conversation. I expect everything about them to be explained then.

I personally would have loved to hear the ridiculous explenation they would have given for this super contrived ending.  I'm sure they didn't because they had no idea how to fully explain it and will simply retcon or forget about this in ME3 as any discussion centered around the last boss is gonna be ludicrous.

Don't forget, Bioware has had everything planned out since Day 1 on Mass Effect. I'm sure they didn't just shoehorn this in for the hell of it. And since everything else is well explained, this will be too.

That's never been proven that they have had this all planned out since day 1 (they said the same about the matrix trilogy and look how that mess turned out) and if they really did have it all written in advance, then this middle chapter has always been poorley constructed, shoehorn or not.

Finally people really need to stop looking at this franchise as "science fiction" and view it in the fantasy genre.  There's enough completely unscientific and impossible circumstances in these games that it really does tread into the fantasy realm.  Remember, just because its setting is in the future and involves spaceships and lasers doesn't mean it's got anything to do with science (Star Wars I'm looking at you).

What exactly do you think Scifi is?
Humans use unobtanium tech left by ancient aliens in scifi all the time.  Mass Effect perfectly falls into the scifi genre

[pacer90]

Revan312 wrote...

*snip*

That's never been proven that they have had this all planned out since day 1 (they said the same about the matrix trilogy and look how that mess turned out) and if they really did have it all written in advance, then this middle chapter has always been poorley constructed, shoehorn or not.

Finally people really need to stop looking at this franchise as "science fiction" and view it in the fantasy genre.  There's enough completely unscientific and impossible circumstances in these games that it really does tread into the fantasy realm.  Remember, just because its setting is in the future and involves spaceships and lasers doesn't mean it's got anything to do with science (Star Wars I'm looking at you).

I think you need to look more at the second part of the "Science Fiction" term. Essentially  we haven't been told very much about how the reapers do the human thing, why they do it this way or much else. You're trying to throw too much science at it right away without knowing anything about anything.

It's really not fantasy. No more than Star Trek or any other classic Science Fiction.

I can't believe how hung up people are on this last boss... you have a massive race of evil maniacle machines bent on harvesting the galaxy. Bioware comes up with something that is at least somewhat original, leave it open for speculation and twists in the next chapter and all anyone does it **** on it.

My only complaint was the actual fight itself, which was easy on insanity.

[Bartooz]

"We are your salvation through destruction..." that quote left me thinking about what reapers really are. Maybe reaper is some sort of Ark to preserve all of the data of capable species (this would explain raw genetic material injected into the reaper because genetic code expression mechanisms of each specimen are much the same so for it extraction you only need the basic scheme).



They are organic/mechanical combined construct so they share abstract thinking with precision and data processing, planing and limitations of an AI. So they are similar to Geth in some way because billions of "programs" share single platform. They represent all individuals in the population linked into superstructure but they still must obey the basic program of their artificial part and achieve what the original programming was designed to.



But again what differs each reaper ? Maybe Harbinger has bigger plans that are beyond programming and he is creating allies ? Sovereign only wanted to destroy life in the galaxy.

Have you ever thought of bigger conflict going on between reaper factions and galaxy being pawn in a bigger game that is almost like a billion years long chess game?? Harbinger through selection searches for a capable species and when he founds one he "saves" it before the harvest slowly creating opposing force. And now someone has broken the cycle destructed base of his secret labour force and disconnecting from collectors general causes the original programming to kick in forcing him to obey reaper primal instincts....



About their origin .... I believe a specie with highly developed technology was facing annihilation and found a way to save itself by preserving genetic data in an A.I. controlled structure. A.I. was ordered to wait in dark space until situation stabilize and then recreate them. But A.I over decades evolved and become self aware and realised that finishing instructions will bring end to its brief existence and re-purposed itself. And became reproducing and regenerating at cost of other organic lifeforms because the organic component was deeply integrated and by this essential to its functioning. And so galaxy became a reproductive/regenerating plant for the reapers....



So we might be facing a silent and billion years old conflict which involve either power struggle between reapers or attempt to end cycle by one of the reapers?? Harbinger may not be so bad after all....



But still it's just my vision but i think it's logical and possible....

[Habelo]

Im just gonna say: that if i traveled back in time to the romans and said that humanity can fly in the air and blow up the world with nukes they would think it more idiotic.



Now that was 1000 years ago.



Reapers have advanced their tech for.... how long really?

[mscotch]

The reason the reapers were using many humans is to ensure the quality of each gene. Every individual has single nucleotide polymorphisms in various genes that can sometimes enhance or impair the functionality of the protein it encodes. The reapers are then isolating the genes that exhibit enhanced functionality to include in the template of their Terminator.



As well, the various epigenetic patterns are analyzed to determine which would be ideal.

[enormousmoonboots]

Solomen wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Mordin tells you right out to discard appearance as far as genetic variability goes.

Why does the fact that turians are dextro make them less genetically diverse? It just means their DNA spins the other way.

Most salarians being male shouldn't matter for diversity. Their family trees are complex, but I think they're smart enough to avoid inbreeding. In fact, they very rigorously select for desirable traits, which means they're adapting more than humans are.

Actually animals with a pedigree are less genetically diverse than those that breed in the wild.  Plus with only 10% of the population being female that forces a constraint on which salarians can breed.  The 10% of the females are a limited breeding selection.  It isn't about selecting for desirable traits, it is the potential for those traits to occur.
As to the turians the dextro-amino physiology limits the environments where they can thrive since the majority of the galaxy seems to be levo-amino dextro-sugar.  Being dextro alone wasn't enough so I gave them the benefit of the doubt.  Quarians on the other hand are dextro and were nearly wiped out by the geth.  Spending 300 years with a static breeding population in a sterile environment has damaged their genetic potential.

Salarians don't mate for life; one female mating with several different males (which is what happens) actually increases overall genetic diversity. They shouldn't be significantly behind any other race in terms of diversity.

Turians can survive in more environments than humans can (thanks to their resistance to radiation). They just can't eat any local flora/fauna that's not dextro-based--and it seems like it's standard procedure for colonies to import a lot of food anyway. Just look at what happened to the Hugo Gernsback survivors; just because its DNA twists the same way doesn't mean you should eat it.

[Revan312]

pacer90 wrote...

I think you need to look more at the second part of the "Science Fiction" term. Essentially  we haven't been told very much about how the reapers do the human thing, why they do it this way or much else. You're trying to throw too much science at it right away without knowing anything about anything.

It's really not fantasy. No more than Star Trek or any other classic Science Fiction.

I can't believe how hung up people are on this last boss... you have a massive race of evil maniacle machines bent on harvesting the galaxy. Bioware comes up with something that is at least somewhat original, leave it open for speculation and twists in the next chapter and all anyone does it **** on it.

My only complaint was the actual fight itself, which was easy on insanity.

But Star Trek isn't Sci-Fi to me, it's fantasy as well because of the plethora of explanations it had that were proven scientifically impossible at the time it was written.

Science fiction to me is a piece of fiction that asks if a certain technology or situation or ability is possible in the future, without knowing whether or not it could realisticly happen, a genre of ideas and questions. It's also about the human condition and how humans might cope with advances in technology.

Fantasy is a genre that is about having a story in an alternate world where things can happen that in our reality are already proven impossible.  Mass Effect sits squarely into the fantasy genre.  It's IMPOSSIBLE to go faster than light speed without time dialation let alone go faster than light at all. It's IMPOSSIBLE to fly into a planet and not be completely vaporized (shep in the beginning), either you burn up in the atmosphere if it has a dense enough one or, if it's not dense enough, you smash into the surface at super sonic speeds.  It's IMPOSSIBLE to have multiple races within one galaxy all reach the same relative intelligence at the same time, find mass relays and come together into a galactic community where all of them can communicate with one another. etc etc

This franchise is full of impossible circumstances, technologies and abilities.  That to me means its not really science fiction.  Works like Brave New World, 1984, Farenheit 451, 2001: A Space Oyssey and even a cartoon like Voices of a Distant Star, those are all science fiction to me.  Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, Farscape (which is what my sig is about) and the literall hundreds of other television and videogame "sci-fi" works are nothing but fantasy to me simply because none of the underlying concepts behind those shows/games can really happen.

Yes you can define it however you want, but as I said, to me, just having spaceships, aliens and fantastical weapons doesn't mean it's got anything to do with science, which is an integrel part of the equation in the term "science fiction", again, to me.

Also, if you believe their story was original I'll go ahead and point you to this list

home.austarnet.com.au/petersykes/topscifi/

Go ahead and browse through it and I guarentee you'll find at least 5-10 works that have the same story when boiled down.

My only point was, that to compare any of this to science is redundent as it's not based on actual scientific principles.  Sure, having some techno babble about how quantum communications works is neat, but when that's in the same setting with ships that can travel many times the speed of light it's nothing but alternate reality fluff.  Since everyone was trying to disect this with science I decided to throw my two cents out and try and prove that the last boss is implausable and contrived.  If you think about it in a fantasy setting however, well then who cares and now you can just enjoy the story. (Though it will never change my opinion that it was a hackneyed ending.)

Modifié par Revan312, 15 avril 2010 - 10:23 .

[Solomen]

According to you there is no such thing as science fiction because your post invalidates 90% of what is considered "Sci Fi"

[Revan312]

Solomen wrote...

According to you there is no such thing as science fiction because your post invalidates 90% of what is considered "Sci Fi"

I just listed what I consider science fiction works, but yes, 90% of the "sci-fi" out there isn't really science fiction to me.  It's fantasy as it holds no ground in reality.  I tried to display that intelligently through my post, take it or leave it.

Modifié par Revan312, 15 avril 2010 - 10:26 .

[Solomen]

Revan312 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

According to you there is no such thing as science fiction because your post invalidates 90% of what is considered "Sci Fi"

I just listed what I consider science fiction works, but yes, 90% of the "sci-fi" out there isn't really science fiction to me.  It's fantasy as it holds no ground in reality.  I tried to display that intelligently through my post, take it or leave it.

If your definition invalidates 90% of science fiction then it stands to reason that your definition is wrong.  Scifi is about "What if?"  not "What is."  Mass Effect is classic scifi.  Humans found an unobtanium technology that allowed them to bend the current laws of physics.  This is science fiction at its most basic. 
Starship Troopers, I Robot, Dune... All scifi.

[enormousmoonboots]

Ecael wrote...

Up until that point, Mass Effect had probably the most plausible scientific explanations of plot and gameplay devices of any sci-fi game (or sci-if movie or TV show) ever.

Ecael...? Not...being EDI?

OH GOD WHAT IS HAPPENING

[RiouHotaru]

You forgot that EDI's statements involving the nature of the Human-Reaper were all conjecture and speculation. EDI states so herself. She has absolutely NO goddamn idea why they're humans like that, the best she can do is an educated guess based on what available information she has. Even SHE isn't sure whether her suppositions are correct or not.



Also, what ret-cons or contradictions are there in the plot from ME1 to 2?

[jakenou]

I personally thought the giant humanoid Reaper "embryo" was ridiculous when I first saw it, and I wasn't paying a huge amount of attention to the finer details of the story or their justification for it either. It just looked silly to me...

BUT, that it isn't understood in terms of human science does make sense to me. Sure EDI knows a bit about it, but it was also said that there isn't a ton of knowledge about the Reapers and the Collectors anyway. So is obscure alien science supposed to work the same way science as us humans know it? Of course not. If everything were explainable in terms of our realm of science it would start to get redundant - especially when encountering alien science.

So perhaps the Reapers had some kind of biotech that worked in such a way that you needed to create an armature that was hospitable to the particular hamburger juice you were running it on, and human juice just happens to conform nicely to this process. Who knows. Nothing else about the Collectors and Reapers make sense to human/Earth science either.

Modifié par jkthunder, 15 avril 2010 - 11:39 .

[Revan312]

Solomen wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

According to you there is no such thing as science fiction because your post invalidates 90% of what is considered "Sci Fi"

I just listed what I consider science fiction works, but yes, 90% of the "sci-fi" out there isn't really science fiction to me.  It's fantasy as it holds no ground in reality.  I tried to display that intelligently through my post, take it or leave it.

If your definition invalidates 90% of science fiction then it stands to reason that your definition is wrong.  Scifi is about "What if?"  not "What is."  Mass Effect is classic scifi.  Humans found an unobtanium technology that allowed them to bend the current laws of physics.  This is science fiction at its most basic. 
Starship Troopers, I Robot, Dune... All scifi.

I said that in my original post, science fiction is a genre of ideas, plausible, scientifically unproven ideas. How many impossibilities does a work have to have before it becomes fantasy in your mind?  Or is it just that a space setting automatically makes it "sci-fi".

But, I'll bite, so what is the "what if?" question that ME poses?  What if we discovered an implausible universe where rules don't apply?  I think my definition of science fiction trends much closer to the original sci-fi genre writers of the past than the current writers/producers. Minus intergalactic travel in Starship troopers, I don't think that I Robot or Dune breaks any physics laws so I have no problem with considering them part of the genre (Though it's been a looong time since I read Dune.)

As I said, you can define it how you want, but if your gonna lump every laser gun/space setting piece of work into the sci-fi genre than what's left for fantasy, just orks and wizards?  I like to look at the genre as by what it's called, fantasy is just that, am impossible setting or set of rules that would be cool, but ultimately isn't ever going to be real.  Science fiction is for exploring ideas and possibilities within the realm of scientifically proven facts and laws. 

Having fiction in the title shouldn't fool people, anything that hasn't actually happened is fiction.  It would be like having an Agatha Christie novel with techno ninjas and giant space battles.  People would call it out as unrealistic and ridiculous, but if you apply the same logic that some have given in this thread, simply by having fiction in the genre title means anything goes, to me it doesn't.  Agatha Christie novels are murder mystery fictions which means murder and mystery should be a part of the equation.  I use that logic with sci-fi, if science is in the genre title, it should at least try to be scientifically accurate, not throw one of the most basic laws of physics out the window, the theory of relativity (no going faster than light without an alcubiere drive or subluminal tubes or something of equal plausibility).

I don't want to get into a forum fight over semantics so we should just agree to disagree, my definition is different than yours, it's as simple as that.

[The Sapien]

Why completely omit the religious reasons?



Think of the Collectors as a cult and not a research lab.

[Revan312]

The Sapien wrote...

Why completely omit the religious reasons?

Think of the Collectors as a cult and not a research lab.

But the collectors aren't a cult, they're mindless zombie slaves doing the reapers bidding.  You would have to say that the reapers are religious as they're the ones controlling the collectors, which in my mind, as they've been around for millions of years and have seen countless religions practiced by the races they've destroyed, would make them seem less than what they are and how they portray themselves. 

Most of the time when a civilization reaches such a point in technology that they've explained, through science, nearly everything in the universe and aren't relying on dogma to reason through things there would be no "religious" aspect to them, just my opinion though.

I yearn for the original villain, sovereign, as he seemed much more threatening and had more of an air of dread surrounding him than Harbinger in ME2.  Maybe that stems from never having a convo with him or seeing him but still, his pseudo religious rambling was annoying to me.  "We are your salvation through destruction" "We are the harbinger of your perfection/destiny/ascendence" "We are your genetic destiny" it's all so... bleh after listening to sovereigns speech from the first game.  What's ironic is that Harbinger actually says at some point "Asari, reliance on alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness"

Also it makes it even more ridiculous when you listen to all the quotes harbinger and sovereign make about us. "They are vermin" "They are bacteria" "Your death is assured" "Your form is fragile" etc etc...  If they hate us that much and see us as nothing but the weakest, most insignificant of lifeforms than why are they trying to "ascend" us.  It's all so contradictory..

[Jackalope]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I never said that organics were "worthless" to the Reapers. They clearly have their uses. But using Saren/Krogan/indoctrinated organics as disposable tools and pawns to be cast aside once the job is complete is not the equivalent of incorporating organics into the very being of the Reapers themselves. It's like the difference between showing contempt for another race of men while you use them for slave labor and welcoming them into your society with open arms.

"Reapers didn't want anything to do with organic races beyond destroying them." You also called organics 'insignificant ants'. I'd say this comes very closely to the definition of worthless. 

I would say the differences between your scenarios are more significant than you imply. Even in our own day and age, human beings have a tendency to mock each other's cultures, calling each other 'barbarians'. One might say because two people are both humans-they should welcome each other with open arms. This isn't the case.

The Reapers are no different. They may look at organics and says 'how pathetic!' or any number of insults. They may view organics as being "antiquated". Organics happen to be an element which is refined to create a Reaper. This does not mean the Reapers have to hold them in any higher respect for it. Hell, they throw around the phrase 'salvation through destruction'. This could easily imply that organic life's destruction leads to something greater.

Exactly again. "We are the harbinger of your perfection."

I like this explanation the best.  I was under the impression during the game that humans were being harvested for raw materials.

Also, I played the final boss late one night and it was scary as hell, probably because of the late hour.  That being said, if I finish my second game in the middle of the afternoon, it might not have the same effect.

[Solomen]

Revan312 wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

Why completely omit the religious reasons?

Think of the Collectors as a cult and not a research lab.

But the collectors aren't a cult, they're mindless zombie slaves doing the reapers bidding.  You would have to say that the reapers are religious as they're the ones controlling the collectors, which in my mind, as they've been around for millions of years and have seen countless religions practiced by the races they've destroyed, would make them seem less than what they are and how they portray themselves. 

Most of the time when a civilization reaches such a point in technology that they've explained, through science, nearly everything in the universe and aren't relying on dogma to reason through things there would be no "religious" aspect to them, just my opinion though.

I yearn for the original villain, sovereign, as he seemed much more threatening and had more of an air of dread surrounding him than Harbinger in ME2.  Maybe that stems from never having a convo with him or seeing him but still, his pseudo religious rambling was annoying to me.  "We are your salvation through destruction" "We are the harbinger of your perfection/destiny/ascendence" "We are your genetic destiny" it's all so... bleh after listening to sovereigns speech from the first game.  What's ironic is that Harbinger actually says at some point "Asari, reliance on alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness"

Also it makes it even more ridiculous when you listen to all the quotes harbinger and sovereign make about us. "They are vermin" "They are bacteria" "Your death is assured" "Your form is fragile" etc etc...  If they hate us that much and see us as nothing but the weakest, most insignificant of lifeforms than why are they trying to "ascend" us.  It's all so contradictory..

It makes perfect sense to me