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[Nightwriter]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

@ Nightwriter
The First Contact War history implies that the turians could have wiped out the humans, but it would have been a serious fight. Which is just mind-boggling to me. It's worse than Ewoks beating stormtroopers, at least the Ewoks were on their own territory. The humans were just doo dee doo-ing off on a colony in the middle of nowhere.

The fact that calling on non-Council alien help is never brought up in the second game also implies that the humans somehow have more initiative than everyone else in the galaxy (even though the salarians are shown to be aware of the Reapers, Mordin wrote a goddamn paper on it). From a meta standpoint, I suppose it's because the game wants to force you to rely on TIM, but it's kind of sloppy.

Agreed.

Well, I did consider if it just seemed like humans were showing more initiative because the Collectors were attacking only humans.

... And the Reapers were behind the Collectors. Ergo, humanity had more interest and seemed more on top of things simply because they had more reason to be directly concerned about the Reapers.

If you bring alien crewmembers to the final fight (I think that's it, I've only ever heard like one of the lines in the actual game, picked up the rest anecdotally from other people and YouTube), Harbinger goes on. and. on about how each and every alien species is not as cool as humanity. "Turian, you are too primitive." "Krogan, you were considered, but are neutered." "Quarian, considered due to cybernetic enhancements, discarded due to weak immune system." "Salarian. Great adaptability, but lifespan too short." "Drell. Potential...but too rare." Human squaddies? "Human. Great biotic potential. Acceptable." "Human. Great genetic malleability. Acceptable." "Human. Great technological potential. Acceptable."

I'm paraphrasing a bit, but he puts down every single recruitable race as nowhere near as perfect and amazing as the humans. It gets tedious.

... This, I did not know. I've got no idea why turians would be too primitive. None. Sounds like they're making up stuff now.

Does this dash my theory about human genetic diversity coming from Prothean experimentation? If the Collector General is examining human and non-human squaddies alike for potential like he's never studied them before it sort of negates that idea.

[Xaijin]

Nightwriter wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Yeah, it kind of bugs me that humans are the HAX race after being on the galactic scene for less than fiftty years. Powerful enough to give the turians a serious fight in the First Contact War, using only their own resources? Whoa, what? Crying for a Council seat not even a generation after opening an embassy? And a race which the canon states* is growing less diverse is the most genetically diverse race? More genetically diverse than aliens who have been settling insular planetary colonies for thousands of years (what the hell is so primitive about the turians? Sure, economics isn't their strong suit, but they seem like a prime candidate)?

No wonder the volus hate us. I'd find us pretty obnoxious, too. We're the Mary Sue race.

*Kahlee Sanders yaks on about how humans are becoming more genetically similar and blondes are going extinct and that's why she's so gorgeous and ~special~. It's totally wrong science, but it's an established fact inside the universe, and the books have been held to be on an equal level of canon as the game.

What's totally wrong science? The concept that we'll all start to look more and more alike in the future?

And didn't Mordin say that you needed to disregard superficial characteristics when he was talking about human genetic variances? That it went deeper than that? Why does our starting to look more alike mean our genetic code isn't still optimal for experimentation and mutation?

I would quite like it if this so call uniqueness in our genetics was due in no small part to the Protheans and their experiments/studies of us. I often think, do the Collectors even remember that? Did they recall their Mars station and the data they collected on us from when they were Protheans? 

Becuase it's contadictory. Humans have lived through two ELEs, but those ELE's whittled us down to nothing, in once case potentially 2000-10000 of breeding stock left... which ME1 acknowledges. Then cue to Me2 and Mordin's all about  your range is like WHOAH BRO.

:|

Modifié par Xaijin, 14 avril 2010 - 06:11 .

[Terraneaux]

sniper1250 wrote...

It's why I think people don't like Aria telling them they can't push her around in her own home/base, they have a mentality that they should be allowed to because they're just that badass.

I think it has more to do with the fact that some writers tried really hard to make their characters 'tough' or 'in your face.'  (I'm thinking of Jack here.)  Aria I don't have a problem with; I'm confident that Shep could cut through Aria, her Batarians, and whatever ninja-strippers she's got waiting in the wings like a chainsaw through butter, it's just not really worthwhile; you're there to grab Mordin and Archangel and go save the galaxy.  

Jack, on the other hand, needed a good beating to show her who's boss and restrain that lip of hers, if she was going to be on the ship.  

[ObserverStatus]

Weren't they trying to kill all the aliens so that they would'nt get in the way when the collectors come to kidnap Omega's humans?

[Nightwriter]

sniper1250 wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...
Yeah, it kind of bugs me that humans are the HAX race after being on the
galactic scene for less than fiftty years.

If a game was about a galaxy that had aliens in it, and humans weren't a prominent or powerful race and could never in anyway compare to the powers that be, and you had to play as a human, would you honestly be able to say you would buy and play that? People play games to be bullies, not to be pushed around by them.
It's why I think people don't like Aria telling them they can't push her around in her own home/base, they have a mentality that they should be allowed to because they're just that badass.

Nobody wants to play a game where their race is weak or isn’t taken seriously, but we don’t want to be treated so well and to come so far so easily that it strains what we can believe about the story.

sniper1250 wrote...]

enormousmoonboots wrote...
Crying for a Council seat not even a generation after opening an embassy?

I think in the book you mention itself, the ambassador at the time realized that humans were so important already, after only being around for a few decades, that she could tell the council that humans refuse to take the rediculous punishments being given to them.

See, I don’t like to think of it this way. I don’t want us to think we’re just so important we should be allowed to skip to the front of the line.

The reason I tell myself for why we push so hard is, “Why the hell not?”

Not, "Because we're special."

I say we push for as much as we can get as soon as we arrive. That doesn’t mean we think we’re special, or that we have more rights than species who have been here for thousands of years—just that we’re damn tenacious and we’re going to keep trying to carve a place for ourselves nonstop, because we want one.

sniper1250 wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...
And a race which the canon states* is growing less diverse is
the most genetically diverse race? More genetically diverse than
aliens who have been settling insular planetary colonies for thousands
of years (what the hell is so primitive about the turians? Sure,
economics isn't their strong suit, but they seem like a prime
candidate)?

I always figured that since genetic engineering comes along eventually in a species rise to council-dom, the genetic diversity would just plummet in more advanced races, reguardless of colonies. Or at least the ones that have been at that level of advancement for a long time. After all, if there is no Malaria, there is no advantage to being a sickle cell carrier, so you might as well just engineer that out of everyone. One less point for diversity right there. At least, I think that's the example I wanted, might be something else.
So it makes sense
that the "youngest" species would be the most diverse, and over time lose that diversity as more advantageous genes are selected(faster and smarter kids are allowed, so long as you don't interfere too much and it's in the interest of health, marines are somewhat an exception to this rule. Miranda's level of modification is probably illegal.).
People keep bringing
in the logic that humans are the least diverse on earth, but I think that they keep forgetting that on a galactic
scale, earth is just one planet. While rare, there are still humans in the Mass Effect universe that have not undergone gene therapy to correct genetic illnesses even though it's usually offered by governments for free. Ashley Williams, for instance, underwent some gene-therapy to correct her vision before it ever went bad.

Yet another possible reason that the Reapers need to pop up so often. They have to get us before we all become similar looking gene wise, as well as before we can fight back.

This actually is another pretty good reason for why the Reapers would wipe out races before they get too advanced.

[Zulu_DFA]

STG wrote...

I still find it annoying that out of all the races out there humans are somehow the best choice.

I mean look at us, we suck.

Yes, look at you!..

Nightwriter wrote...

The reason I tell myself for why we push so hard is, “Why the hell not?”

Not, "Because we're special."

But this "Why the hell not?" attitude is exactly what makes the Humans "special". The aliens in Mass effect obviously lack it, except for the Krogans, who have too much of it, which is as bad a thing as having too little of it.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 avril 2010 - 05:13 .

[ObserverStatus]

STG wrote...

I still find it annoying that out of all the races out there humans are somehow the best choice.

I mean look at us, we suck.

Whats wrong with that? If an all powerful  space head lice told me I was the greatest, I wouldn't complain.

[Nightwriter]

Terraneaux wrote...

Jack, on the other hand, needed a good beating to show her who's boss and restrain that lip of hers, if she was going to be on the ship.  

You monster. Jack was adorable. Every time she said a swear word I giggled my ass off.

bobobo878 wrote...

Weren't they trying to kill all the aliens so that they would'nt get in
the way when the collectors come to kidnap Omega's humans?

That is the direction of people's thoughts, yeah. But why the hell would the Collectors be interested in Omega's humans?

Not a good harvest site.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nightwriter wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Jack, on the other hand, needed a good beating to show her who's boss and restrain that lip of hers, if she was going to be on the ship.  

You monster. Jack was adorable. Every time she said a swear word I giggled my ass off.

bobobo878 wrote...

Weren't they trying to kill all the aliens so that they would'nt get in
the way when the collectors come to kidnap Omega's humans?

That is the direction of people's thoughts, yeah. But why the hell would the Collectors be interested in Omega's humans?

Not a good harvest site.

Its an enclosed space nowhere to run to.

[enormousmoonboots]

Weren't humans a minority on Omega, though? It's why the other races pushed them around so much there. It's like the Anti-Citadel. And if you look at it like that, every space station, starship, or, hell, big enough building is an enclosed space with nowhere to run to. And there are purely human space stations and starships all over the damn place, even in the Terminus Systems. Why Omega?



The video with Harbinger's dialog. If it's the same one I saw before, I think the alien taunting starts at about half.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Its close in proximity to the Omega 4 relay. When they started abduciting Human Colonies the Collectors invited danger upon themselves, and made themselves more visible. Omega becomes a possible risk if they continue as soon people will put two and two together ergo take it out and harvest what you can from it.

[ObserverStatus]

Also, Omega is pretty damn big. Even if only a small percentage of its inhabitants are human, that's still a lot. I also got the impression that they intended to capture every human eventually, so they'd might as well attack Omega now.

[Nightwriter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

But why the hell would the Collectors be interested in Omega's humans?

Not a good harvest site.

Its an enclosed space nowhere to run to.

Wat. Nah.

It's not about enclosed spaces. Too much effort harvesting humans on Omega. Not all that many humans there, too, compared to non-humans - better to attack where humans are more concentrated.

Collectors would draw the attention of the local criminal groups there and would have a harder time avoiding notice. Not like with isolated colonies on the fringes of space.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 14 avril 2010 - 05:27 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Plus because it is small the virus (or whatever) was used as a test on site in Omega. For instance if they targeted the Citadel there is a chance that it might not work, which is why proper field testing is needed. Omega is big enough to do that while small enough (and brushed aside enough) that they could get away with such tests.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The reason I tell myself for why we push so hard is, “Why the hell not?”

Not, "Because we're special."

But this "Why the hell not?" attitude is exactly what makes the Humans "special". The aliens in Mass effect obviously lack it, except for the Krogans, who have too much of it, which is as bad a thing as having too little of it.

You think there are no other races in all of galactic space that have ever adopted a "why the hell not" attitude?

That is just so implausible to me. The way they try to set it up like the humans are the only race with tenacity and initiative.

[Collider]

They didn't really shed lots of light on the reasoning, IIRC. Or I could just not remember. It may be so that they develop and test an easy to use biological weapon to kill non-human species (and Vorcha, but they are just servants), in the process keeping humans alive and healthy for processing. There's less resistance when there are only humans around to defend against the reapers.

[Xaijin]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The reason I tell myself for why we push so hard is, “Why the hell not?”

Not, "Because we're special."

But this "Why the hell not?" attitude is exactly what makes the Humans "special". The aliens in Mass effect obviously lack it, except for the Krogans, who have too much of it, which is as bad a thing as having too little of it.

You think there are no other races in all of galactic space that have ever adopted a "why the hell not" attitude?

That is just so implausible to me. The way they try to set it up like the humans are the only race with tenacity and initiative.

That's because they did.

CRAZY MONKEY POWER is unique to humans. No Alien has or will ever possess it. ME is a love letter to all those 80s books. Which are built soley around CRAZY MONKEY POWER.

[JKoopman]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

If you bring alien crewmembers to the final fight (I think that's it, I've only ever heard like one of the lines in the actual game, picked up the rest anecdotally from other people and YouTube), Harbinger goes on. and. on about how each and every alien species is not as cool as humanity. "Turian, you are too primitive." "Krogan, you were considered, but are neutered." "Quarian, considered due to cybernetic enhancements, discarded due to weak immune system." "Salarian. Great adaptability, but lifespan too short." "Drell. Potential...but too rare." Human squaddies? "Human. Great biotic potential. Acceptable." "Human. Great genetic malleability. Acceptable." "Human. Great technological potential. Acceptable."

I'm paraphrasing a bit, but he puts down every single recruitable race as nowhere near as perfect and amazing as the humans. It gets tedious.

I don't recall Harbinger saying anything of the sort and I brought Tali and Thane with me in the final battle. Do you have any links to video of this conversation or is this all just heresay?

EDIT: Just saw the link posted further down. I don't think those audio tracks appear anywhere in the actual game, and certainly not at the ending.

Modifié par JKoopman, 14 avril 2010 - 06:24 .

[TheLostGenius]

I thought it was incredibly stupid way of "going up against the collectors" early game. I still like to pretend that that wasn't the plot. It would have made a lot more sense if the Blood Pack had stolen an engineered virus and was using it to take Blue Suns territory.

[Terraneaux]

Nightwriter wrote...

You monster. Jack was adorable. Every time she said a swear word I giggled my ass off.

She talked like she owned that ship.  The writer was pretty clear that you were scared of Jack and were going to do what she said.  

[Nightwriter]

Xaijin wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That is just so implausible to me. The way they try to set it up like the humans are the only race with tenacity and initiative.

That's because they did.

CRAZY MONKEY POWER is unique to humans. No Alien has or will ever possess it. ME is a love letter to all those 80s books. Which are built soley around CRAZY MONKEY POWER.

What are you talking about, CRAZY MONKEY POWER?

[jlb524]

Terraneaux wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You monster. Jack was adorable. Every time she said a swear word I giggled my ass off.

She talked like she owned that ship.  The writer was pretty clear that you were scared of Jack and were going to do what she said.  

She did own the ship.  You lost it to her in a game of cards.  You don't remember that?

[Xaijin]

Nightwriter wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That is just so implausible to me. The way they try to set it up like the humans are the only race with tenacity and initiative.

That's because they did.

CRAZY MONKEY POWER is unique to humans. No Alien has or will ever possess it. ME is a love letter to all those 80s books. Which are built soley around CRAZY MONKEY POWER.

What are you talking about, CRAZY MONKEY POWER?

Basically that at the end of the horrible war, humans will do the last minute thing that no Alien is ever prepared for, and the human heroes will say the catchphrase and the Aliens both ally and enemy will be like "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE", and then the bad aliens die in a huge explosion. See: Every populist scifi action anything ever made.

Modifié par Xaijin, 14 avril 2010 - 06:47 .

[Nightwriter]

Xaijin wrote...

Basically that at the end of the horrible war, humans will do the last minute thing that no Alien is ever prepared for, and the human heroes will say the catchphrase and the Aliens both ally will be like "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE", and then the bad aliens die in ahuge explosion. See: Every populist scifi action anything ever made.

Um... CRAZY MONKEY POWER ftw?

[Collider]

I'm being picky, but the monkey part of that reminds me of people who think that current evolutionary theory and consensus states that we evolved from monkeys.