86 réponses à ce sujet

[Zaros]

Damnit! Where did I leave those ballista bolts, we need to break down this wall of text!

No offense, but a tl;dr version wouldn't kill you, or at least tell us to only read the last few lines for your point, because the long-ass essay I had to read to get there was neither witty nor interesting.

Modifié par Zaros, 13 avril 2010 - 10:47 .

[Meliorist13]

I have deleved into Morrigan quite a bit lately and deep into a romance with her with high coercion, moderate cunning, and high approval, I have gotten some interesting dialogues with her. I swear several times, I thought she was going to cry. There is a vunerable woman and wanting heart in that psyche damaged lady. But she is propelled by Flemeth's influence: her need for power and survival that Flemeth instilled in her and her belief that sympathy love and caring is a weakness, also instilled by Flemeth. Morrigan is my favorite. I find Leliana matching alot of the OP's ideas on Morrigan, but that is for a different thread.

[Meliorist13]

Touche' AwesomeEffect2,



As a matter of fact, with Luchere's mod, I do believe that I did. *wink*

[Agent_Dark_]

well you say that Flemeth is not necessarily the bad guy that the legends make her out to be, and I agree with that. If she was a monster, she didn't have to guard those Warden Treaties or save your life at Ostagar. I would suggest though that Flemeth doesn't do those things out of an altruistic concern for the world though, rather a self preservation one. She lives in the world, and she doesn't want to see the world destroyed. She also strikes me as someone who thinks really big or long term, so keeping something like Grey Warden treaties around in case they come in handy in the future is a practical idea.



Then you say that the Grey Warden baby idea is somewhat of a bad thing, since its making an Old God that the Darkspawn are after. It is Flemeth's idea though, not Morrigan's, so following on from your line of reasoning wouldn't that suggest that the Grey Warden Old God Baby is a good thing? Perhaps the baby is something that can be used to end the Darkspawn once and for all. After all, it's basically said all through the game that the Blights are cyclic in nature and fighting the blights the 'normal' way (ie Grey Wardens amass an army and kill the Archdemon) does nothing to prevent the next blight.



Morrigan is presented as nothing but practical, just like her mother. Love is not practical, hence she doesn't have a use for it. Helping out innocents is not really practical to your current quest, and indeed in some cases really only delays the inevitable, hence she disapproves. She uncovers strong evidence that would suggest her mother is going to kill her for her young body, so she does the practical thing and sends you to stop her before that happens. She does seem mighty eager to go through with the Warden Baby thing, despite it being Flemeth's idea, so if she truly believes that this is the way to stop the blights for good then again its a practical idea. In that case, Morrigan is not being 'evil' or has not duped you into anything more than doing what she sees as the practical solution to the Blights.

[Meliorist13]

The only real downside to Morrigan for me, is her voracious and
unsatiable desire for power. She wants so bad to be the equal of or
superior to Flemeth.
She isn't telling, and that's why we question
her. Her relationship with the male PC almost breaks her down, she got
much more that she planned on there, but instead of confiding she flees.
The fight or flight syndrome rears it head. There is obviously
something that she is obsessively compelled to do, the question is
whether or not the outcome is strictly for her (I'm not sold on that
yet) or is it beneficial to all?

Modifié par Meliorist13, 13 avril 2010 - 11:18 .

[SLPr0]

Zaros wrote...

Damnit! Where did I leave those ballista bolts, we need to break down this wall of text!

No offense, but a tl;dr version wouldn't kill you, or at least tell us to only read the last few lines for your point, because the long-ass essay I had to read to get there was neither witty nor interesting.

Your ADHD is not my problem.

If theres more than a paragraph involved I suggest you move on to the next post, rather than "bore" yourself to death simply to have reason to leave a snide comment.

Thanks and have a nice day sunshine.

[Meliorist13]

The chantry is full of s**t and is only interested in furthering it's own goals and supplanting itself as the ultimate authority. Now back to Morrigan!!! *smile*

[SLPr0]

Elps wrote...

All this assumes that the Old Gods are evil, which indicates that many people here believe the Chantry. Just because the Chantry tells the story of the Makers/Old Gods conflict does not mean that this is what happened. The Old Gods, uncorrupted by the taint, may be just the thing that is needed to save Thedas.

This assumes that a child begat by a Warden and an untainted woman would not carry the taint themselves.

This is something that has never been resolved or revealed. Fiona became free of the taint in the Deep Roads, whether due to the exposure to the Architects devices or through concieving a child with Maric (the taint perhaps passing to the child and freeing her of it).

Morrigan gives many assurances in dialog with her on the fate of the child that it will be free of the taint and unharmed, but, again we're dealing with...Morrigan, and of course a story that is full of people telling half truths for their own reasons in the first place.

And what would an untainted old god save Thedas from? The Darkspawn? The Darkspawn, despite the weird weaving of prequel and post epilogal events in Awakenings, are historically not a threat to "Thedas" until they find an old god and free it. The presence of these old gods being a fact means that something, perhaps, The Maker, imprisoned them, as the mythology goes...you don't exactly bury a bunch of old gods deep in the earth if they're fun to have around at a party. Even if The Maker is Chantry mythology, then one must assume someone buried all these old gods for a reason, and it was probably because they weren't pleasant to have around.

I think its not so much believing the Chantry as it is an understanding that just because Cthlulu has gotten a bit of bad press doesn't mean the Devourer of Worlds is potentially a really nice, and severely misunderstood tentacle faced destroyer of all life, and he'd probably do a great job solving all the worlds problems if someone just went and woke him up.

Just an errant thought there.

Modifié par SLPr0, 13 avril 2010 - 11:40 .

[Sarah1281]

She does seem to tell the truth. Throughout the game Morrigan doesn’t lie to the PC.

All we know is that we don't catch her in a lie. It would logically follow that she is truthful when she can be so that she isn't caught and we don't see her as a liar but if she had something really bad planned with the baby, of course she's going to lie.

[Epona222]

dream_operator23 wrote...

I have to admit as a bi female that plays male wardens more than female ones, not romancing Morrigan is really hard for me to do. I always start out my playthroughs, thinking this time I won't fall into her trap (if it is a trap, I think falling in love is not part of Morrigan's plans, but it does help her plans), but whenever she starts with her falling in love dialogue it's really hard for me to resist.

I agree that is unexpected, because honestly there is a lot about her character which I dislike immensely. It must be her showing vulnerability for the first time that sucks me in every time. I also find it funny that she falls in love with my good and merciful-to-all characters, since it seems so contrary to everything that she is. Maybe being shown simple love and caring from a friend with no thoughts for anything in return changes her a little, but not enough for her to abandon her ultimate plan. I always find that sad.

I find that interesting, because I am a bi female, but I don't get the whole vulnerability thing that you mention.  I mean I see that in her personality, but it's more of a turn-off than a turn-on for me.... way too much baggage.  I'd rather pay for her to get therapy than romance her.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I was actually thinking that the whole Beowulf situation you have going with Morrigan would make a great sequel. I never really fell in love with Morrigan, but the thought of being able to "keep traveling" like my character suggested to Alistair really sucked me into doing the dark ritual. I kind of felt like Richter Belmont in Symphony of the Night (if anyone has played through all of it with all the endings).



No one really wants their Warden's quest to end. If we could be forever traveling and dealing with doom, I bet a lot of Wardens would be happy. If you look at the codexes from the Warden's Tower, they all seem rather miserable at a time of vigiliance. And then you look at Highever, those Wardens haven't seen a blight in so long, and Riordan gets kind of bothered when talking about it.



Also, the old gods seem rather dangerous, even in their untainted form. As the OP stated, why would you bury them deep underground if they are not dangerous. I mean the chantry seems to be right on a lot of things especially seeing the Sacred Ashes in person (well gaming-wise) should've made the naysayers start believing. I haven't seen one thing that the chantry was wrong about; although, if anyone could give me one situation I would be more than happy to rephrase that lol.

[Gill Kaiser]

Yep, read that thread. I've already stated my opinions on the Chantry and the Sacred Ashes temple.

[eucatastrophe]

Actually, she makes it very clear that she did not seduce you to conceive the child.
Also, while you are probably correct in your assumption that the child will play a part in DA2s plot, why are you assuming it will be evil?

While that is definitely a valid route to take storywise, Morrigan makes it very clear that this would be an Old God w/o the Darkspawn taint.

[krasnoarmeets]

There are a few things I have to say on this point, a few questions to be raised. Morrigan states before the deed that it is the soul of the old god that she is interested in before it became tainted and therefore it is implied that the taint affects only the physical host body, having no effect on the soul itself. This is Morrigan's answer to the question of whether the child will be evil or not.
The child being spoken of, being physical, is essentially half-Grey Warden, therefore half-tainted and, as the father is, would be immune to the darkspawn corruption. Instinctively, darkspawn hate the Grey Wardens, can sense them, just as the reverse is true. Darkspawn supposedly seek out the 'old gods' as they allegedly call to them, the darkspawn corrupt them and a blight begins. So what happens in that cycle, if the soul of the old god is in a body that the darkspawn corruption cannot affect? Granted, the child is already tainted, and Grey Wardens eventually succumb to the darkspawn taint seeking them out in the deep roads... but it is only half-tainted, so this may not occur, or if it does it would likely take far longer for it to occur given the taint's dilution in the host body. Given, however, that the 'old gods' call to the darkspawn, driving them to dig them out of their prisons, would the soul of the 'old god' in the tainted child also be predisposed towards doing the very same thing or is this just a desire to be freed by any means necessary?
I think, and there is strong evidence to support this, that the Chantry is full of crap, regarding these 'old gods' being inherently evil.
I think the Chantry only cares about its own power and influence, and therefore goes on a smear campaign against anything that dares to threaten its influence.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 14 avril 2010 - 04:21 .

[Vicious]

While the OP brings up interesting points, it is ultimately FAIL. Flemeth concievably wanted the old god baby to devour it. Morrigan definetly does not. She wants it for her own ultimately unknown purposes. To control it? Concievable, but Morrigan's domineering nature is a result of her upbringing, she IS capable of friendship and love.



and honestly, the idea that she wants the godbaby to eat/control is utterly jejune and unworthy of her character complexity.



And in Dave G's comic she sheds tears about the whole affair... there's more going on than is revealed in DAO. DAO in actuality revealed nothing about the nature of souls, the fade, and the soul of an ancient dragon in the body of a human. Everything on those subjects is conjecture.





And yes, as the OP stated, Morrigan has the old god baby one way or another. ? The Ultimate Sacrifice is not a supported ending. People need to accept this. Like Shepard's possible demise in ME2, it is a heroic and dramatic ending... but the story doesn't continue.

[Vicious]

, then one must assume someone buried all these old gods for a reason,

That's a hell of an assumption. Even the codex [stuff written by Chantry scholars] state that some believe that the Old Gods are merely hibernating.

[krasnoarmeets]

Vicious wrote...
And yes, as the OP stated, Morrigan has the old god baby one way or another. ? The Ultimate Sacrifice is not a supported ending. People need to accept this. Like Shepard's possible demise in ME2, it is a heroic and dramatic ending... but the story doesn't continue.

Indeed, because the hero/heroine is dead, the story with that character as the central focus cannot continue, however, time does not stop and the world does not end when a hero dies. The story does go on. 

[Vicious]

Only in your mind. While it's sad that game development failed the storyline possibilities, either you take Morrigan's ritual, or you play Awakenings in an alternate reality where your Warden never existed and Alistair became King and did everything on his own. You can stretch your imagination, but it's basically what it amounts to, and it's sad.

[eucatastrophe]

And in Dave G's comic she sheds tears about the whole affair... there's more going on than is revealed in DAO. DAO in actuality revealed nothing about the nature of souls, the fade, and the soul of an ancient dragon in the body of a human. Everything on those subjects is conjecture.

Agreed.

In fact, depending on the dialog choices, Morrigan displays a shocking array of emotions ranging from frustration, uncertainty, disappointment to sadness.


@krasnoarmeets

This is in no way suggested by the game, but I think it works this way:
The taint on the soul of the Old God and Grey Warden taint -  the 2 taints are likes positives and negatives. They attract each other, and ultimately, if allowed to converge, they cancel each other out leaving only the "pure" soul (as Morrigan suggests this is what will remain in the child).

Modifié par eucatastrophe, 14 avril 2010 - 06:12 .

[Sarah1281]

Vicious wrote...

Only in your mind. While it's sad that game development failed the storyline possibilities, either you take Morrigan's ritual, or you play Awakenings in an alternate reality where your Warden never existed and Alistair became King and did everything on his own. You can stretch your imagination, but it's basically what it amounts to, and it's sad.

I thought  the story was that your Warden died kiliing the Archdemon but none of your choices (like the two line difference if you chose Bhelen or Harrowmont or if Alistair or Anora shows up for a cameo) carry over.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 14 avril 2010 - 06:08 .