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[Gill Kaiser]

So basically Morrigan's child will be like the Old God version of Blade?

[SLPr0]

Vicious wrote...

, then one must assume someone buried all these old gods for a reason,

That's a hell of an assumption. Even the codex [stuff written by Chantry scholars] state that some believe that the Old Gods are merely hibernating.

Some believe Cthlulu is merely hibernating. Yes I'm making an assumption, but I feel its a logical assumption.

If the Old Gods were the blessings some anti-chantry pundits would make them out to be, there would be no reason for them to be buried/imprisoned/hibernating...even if they were hibernating, one of them would probably stick around to keep the grass growing and the sun coming up or whatever it is ancient gods do in Thedas while the others took a nap...if they were so benevolent.

[Gill Kaiser]

Well, I think the Old Gods are just ancient dragons who have reached a stage of their life beyond the 'High Dragon' stage, perhaps developing the ability to manipulate magic and communicate via a natural form of blood magic (which High Dragons already seem to be able to do with their dragon cult followers).

[Lowenhart]

Well your welcome to have your opion about morrigan as the thread poster, but i dont completely agree with you, morrigan is a better person beneath than youd actually see at first glimpse, her isolation and strict raising from Flemeth however damaged her somewhat, likely because Flemeth wanted to keep a close eye on her future body and home, if you actually pay attention to her body language youll see more than once that she does actually care, about alot of things even if she wont admit to it, and that she quite often try to simplify things to avoid for them to become personal, mainly because she been punished often by flemeth for for caring.

By i guess its the sorta charm some of ous often fall for, when we see a person who carry something beautiful within them but doesnt allow it to flourish but rather take on a different path, i guess it makes ous feel more like heroes or better about ourselves.

And flemeth is no way as nice as you made her out to be, sure she helped the player and possible saved our life, but it was a means to a end nothing she did out of real care.

[Lowenhart]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

So basically Morrigan's child will be like the Old God version of Blade?

Think its more likely he will be a champion against the Chantry's tyranny.

Maybe a bit more like Hercules.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 14 avril 2010 - 11:33 .

[SLPr0]

Lowenhart wrote...
And flemeth is no way as nice as you made her out to be, sure she helped the player and possible saved our life, but it was a means to a end nothing she did out of real care.

Are we sure of this?

• DA: Stolen Throne - Flemeth warns Maric of the coming Blight in secret 25 - 35 odd years before its coming to pass, it is part of their discussion and part of Maric's promise that he will ensure the country is ready for its coming...as revealed in DA: The Calling, when he realizes he must go with the Grey Wardens to the Deep Roads as he feels it is key to his promise to Flemeth in the wilds.
• DA:  Origins - Flemeth, previous to this chapter of the story has rescued important treaties that were, for some unforseeable reason, stored in a far flung outpost in the middle of a swamp (we won't analyze the logic of this we'll just accept it, but seems a rather silly place to keep the treaties given their importance), she wards and guards these treaties so they are in good repair biding her time for the day when the hero she sees in the future will arrive. On arrival she gives you said treaties, giving you the "legal" power to demand the aid you need from various factions to defeat the Blight. In this chapter of the story she not only does that but saves the hero and Alistair from certain doom and sets them on the path to defeat the Blight.

Now, Flemeth isn't nice, nice is not a term I would use in regards to Flemeth...but what IS Flemeth? She has been making slow movements for over 50 years or so, going all the way back to her meeting with Maric in the wilds, to the day she rescues you from the Tower of Ishal.

Is this all done in the ultimate plan to free an old god? What purpose would that serve for Flemeth? Who isn't "nice" and is apparently something close to an embodied old god herself? What are all these machinations on Flemeth's part, which appear to be extremely beneficial to the safety and security of Ferelden and Thedas at large truly have to do with her....ultimate evil plan...since shes "not as nice as I make her out to be."

Wynne in the mid to late game demonstrates to us that not all fade spirits are evil, whatever Flemeth is, its entirely possible she is not "evil" either, given her actions from Stolen Throne to DA:O....everything shes done appears to have some level of benevolent element that is for the greater good of some future only she can see.

[Meliorist13]

Good point on Flemeth, I like it.

Modifié par Meliorist13, 14 avril 2010 - 11:53 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...
Also, the old gods seem rather dangerous, even in their untainted form. As the OP stated, why would you bury them deep underground if they are not dangerous. I mean the chantry seems to be right on a lot of things especially seeing the Sacred Ashes in person (well gaming-wise) should've made the naysayers start believing. I haven't seen one thing that the chantry was wrong about; although, if anyone could give me one situation I would be more than happy to rephrase that lol.

If you bring Oghren with you when going for the urn and you meet the guardian he mentions he can sense a large amount of lyrium running through the mountain which could be the true source of the ashes power. So nothing is proven that their religion is right. It suggest that the real power has nothing to do with the maker or andreste.

[Meliorist13]

The blood is the life

Spice must flow



Lyrium is behind it all.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

I don't think Morrigan is really evil. Maybe cynical and bitter do the way she was raised and power hungry but she's not essential rotten to the core. She does have a good side and near the end it shows that she cares even if she sees it as a weakness I don't think she would ever do anything to harm your character. Also she says you'll never see her again if she did something drastic like bring about some great evil power somehow I think that would catch your notice. Also I'm curious to see how a child with an untainted soul of a old god would be. Though I don't think he or she would be able to command the dark spawn. Also not even Morrigan believed that by killing Flemeth that she'd truly be destroyed.



Also it seems odd to me that Flemeth happened to mention a book that would tell Morrigan that she plans on possessing her body and sending her off with Grey Wardens who would be heading towards that tower. Perhaps Flemeth planned for it. Perhaps through having her physical body destroyed she might try to possess the body of this child Morrigan will have. Also the robes of possession are a bit suspicious. So I'm not sure I'd believe that Flemeth at least didn't want you to think she was going to possess Morrigan.

[Xandurpein]

One thing is obvious to me. Morrigan was raised by Flemeth. Outwardly Morrigan is cold, selfish and uncaring. From all the stories Morrigan tells you of her childhood it is obvious that this is how Flemeth raised her to be. That says something about Flemeth.

[SLPr0]

Another point of observance on Flemeth and the Ishal rescue.

If Flemeth was as pragmatic and uncaring as some would assume she is, why save Alistair? Alistair is not the hero, the player is, what obligation would she have had to save both of you unless there was some deeper understanding of the role Alistair must play in the future as well? An understanding of who Alistair is even before he reveals it himself?

I continue to maintain that Flemeth is not evil, shes not nice either, granted, but theres more to Flemeth than "I'm the demon Witch of the Wilds that will eventually consume your lover Morrigan's soul and possess her body to extend my life."

There are much deeper things going on here than that. Plus Flemeth was old at the time of Maric's first meeting with her, how come she had not taken possession of Morrigan previous to the hero's entry to the story? She would have to have been decrepitly ancient by that point in the story, given she was "old" in the time of her first meeting with Maric.

Wouldn't it have been more simply expediant for an "evil" Flemeth to have possessed Morrigan previous to your meeting and been Morrigan throughout the adventure, if her true intents were as shallow as to simply let Morrigan "age" like cheese or wine til she felt Morrigan was "ripe" to be possessed?

These are unanswered questions. But still questions to ponder when considering the Flemeth/Morrigan connection to the overarching storyline of DA.

[rak72]

Reason why Flemeth saved Alistair - She knew all along that she was going to have Mo do the DR. She needed as many new GW sperm donners as possible (in case anything happened to one of them). But then why save the female warden? To give Ali a better chance of making it to the AD

[Jamie7791]

Couldn't the reason that Flemeth saved both of you be more simple? Maybe she simply wants to make sure that the blight is ended. If she's been around for centuries and has seen the destruction of the previous blight, wouldn't that be incentive enough to save some Wardens that have the potential to stop the archdemon?



Morrigan's reason for going with you is probably to try and preserve the soul of the Old God, but I suspect that's secondary.

[Master Shiori]

SLPr0 wrote...

Another point of observance on Flemeth and the Ishal rescue.

If Flemeth was as pragmatic and uncaring as some would assume she is, why save Alistair? Alistair is not the hero, the player is, what obligation would she have had to save both of you unless there was some deeper understanding of the role Alistair must play in the future as well? An understanding of who Alistair is even before he reveals it himself?

I think she was just going for the numbers.

Flemeth wants a god child and knows that in order to get it a Grey Warden must sire a child with Morrigan. It's likely that she can tell the Darkspawn will win at Ostagar and that most of the Grey Wardens will be killed.
Therefore she's trying to save as many of their new recruits as she can to ensure her plan succeeds (at that point you and Alistair are the only junior members of the order left alive).

Even with both of you alive there is no guarantee that you will both live to take part in the final battle.

As for Alistair's role in the future, I don't believe she knows anything. Even if she did I doubt it would concern her much.

[SirOccam]

Sure, Morrigan could be an evil mastermind and we played right into her trap, but you know what? Even if this turns out to be the case, I would do it the same way next time. Nowhere is it written that the hero of the story can't make mistakes or be foolish.

But on the other hand, call me an optimist, call me naive, call me what you will, but I think we really do see her facade melt as the game progresses. I think there really is a person under that hard outer shell, and if you're persistent (which I wasn't the first time), you'll catch glimpses of it from time to time.

Agreeing to the dark ritual even though your brain is screaming "SOMETHING'S SKETCHY HERE!!!" is sort of an act of trust on your part. Whether it turns out to be trust misplaced or not, it doesn't diminish the sincerity of the trust. And what is love without trust? You can't just sit back and wait for the other person to constantly prove themselves to you. Sometimes you gotta take that blind leap of faith. Same with killing Flemeth. Maybe it was just my character being manipulated, but in his eyes, his priority was keeping her safe, and if she said Flemeth was a threat, then Flemeth was a threat.

Personally I think Morrigan and her romance story is one of the best such stories I've encountered in any game or book (or TV show/movie for that matter). I am hopeful that it will turn out happily, and that uncertainty is what keeps me anxious and impatient for the conclusion to arrive.

The more obstacles they throw in the way, the better I know it's going to turn out. Even if it's the ending I DON'T want, I know it's going to be a hell of an emotional impact when it gets here, and what more can you ask?

Modifié par SirOccam, 14 avril 2010 - 04:39 .

[TSamee]

Agh... I posted something god-knows-how-long regarding this, and possible theories on Morrigan. Obviously, yeah, my main PC fell in love with Morrigan, and yes, I plan on searching for her later. And yes, I know that she could be evil, or perhaps she has evil plans (because we're all human, and thus can't be completely evil), or maybe she's part of a "master plan" by Flemeth (Morrigan expressed doubt that the Warden killed her mother. I doubt she's as easy to kill as the quest shows us, or the multitude of badass dragonslaying Wardens that have existed through history could all have had a shot at killing her). Perhaps she followed Flemeth's plan (god-child) but then plans to do something else with the child if the Warden fell in love with her/tried to make her less of an emotional train-wreck. Or maybe she's stayed cold, and it was all an act, and you're now boned because you've given a child with potentiall huge amounts of power to someone who you really don't know a thing about.



And that's the thing about Morrigan, for me. Not that she's hot, but because you find that, beneath the cold exterior and arrogance, she could just be an unsure, insecure woman. Her discussions about love with the Warden could show that, deep inside, she's been a trainwreck on conflicting emotions since she started the relationship with the Warden. Initially, we feel like showing some love to the cold, detached woman, possibly out of pity. Then, we try and make her more human, try to get her to accept love. And, after the playthrough's over, we look back on it, and it's all too possible that we've just been manipulated. Most guys'll go for her because she's hot, and then because she's vulnerable. She said it herself, something along the lines of "all men are prepared to believe two things about a woman: that she's weak, and that she finds him attractive." Well, we've been attracted to her on an emotional level because she's weak.



Frankly, I know far too little about Morrigan to make a decision. What if she's a member of a Dragon Cult? What kind of spin would that put on things? After all, she does have a unique eye colour that she shares with Flemmeth (the Codex mentions members being physically changed), and she's silent in the town where you retrieve the ashes, whereas she shoots her mouth off in every other zone. Or maybe she's in league with Flemmeth. Maybe she loves you, but feels her mission's too important. Perhaps she set out to manipulate you but fell in love. The whole relationship could have just been an act on her part. Maybe she's actually vulnerable. Maybe she'll do something different with the child after being with the Warden.



When talking about her personality, her feelings, her motives, you can only use "maybe". With our present knowledge of her, there are no absolutes at all. And, frankly, I'd like to believe that, while she most likely has a darker/power-related purpose in mind for the child, I might be able to make her change her point of view, get her to love me, or at least regret acting the way she did. But that's assuming her purpose for the child is "evil", of course. And we're forgetting that there's no black and white in Dragon Age, only shades of grey. There's guaranteed to be a part of Morrigan's plan that we understand, that we feel will be "good". There's guaranteed to be a part that we don't like.



Frankly, I hope BioWare doesn't cop out and make our choices have no serious impace on DA2. The ways characters react, the way Morrigan could react to you if you see her again, the lives of thousands, all of these were shaped by your decision in Origins. I know it's a damn tall order, but if BioWare make your choices here actually count in a sequel...

[Count Viceroy]

SirOccam wrote...

Sure, Morrigan could be an evil mastermind and we played right into her trap, but you know what? Even if this turns out to be the case, I would do it the same way next time. Nowhere is it written that the hero of the story can't make mistakes or be foolish.

But on the other hand, call me an optimist, call me naive, call me what you will, but I think we really do see her facade melt as the game progresses. I think there really is a person under that hard outer shell, and if you're persistent (which I wasn't the first time), you'll catch glimpses of it from time to time.

Agreeing to the dark ritual even though your brain is screaming "SOMETHING'S SKETCHY HERE!!!" is sort of an act of trust on your part. Whether it turns out to be trust misplaced or not, it doesn't diminish the sincerity of the trust. And what is love without trust? You can't just sit back and wait for the other person to constantly prove themselves to you. Sometimes you gotta take that blind leap of faith. Same with killing Flemeth. Maybe it was just my character being manipulated, but in his eyes, his priority was keeping her safe, and if she said Flemeth was a threat, then Flemeth was a threat.

Personally I think Morrigan and her romance story is one of the best such stories I've encountered in any game or book (or TV show/movie for that matter). I am hopeful that it will turn out happily, and that uncertainty is what keeps me anxious and impatient for the conclusion to arrive.

The more obstacles they throw in the way, the better I know it's going to turn out. Even if it's the ending I DON'T want, I know it's going to be a hell of an emotional impact when it gets here, and what more can you ask?

Well said, I was going to post something similar but now I don't have to

[Sarah1281]

SLPr0 wrote...

Vicious wrote...

, then one must assume someone buried all these old gods for a reason,

That's a hell of an assumption. Even the codex [stuff written by Chantry scholars] state that some believe that the Old Gods are merely hibernating.

Some believe Cthlulu is merely hibernating. Yes I'm making an assumption, but I feel its a logical assumption.

If the Old Gods were the blessings some anti-chantry pundits would make them out to be, there would be no reason for them to be buried/imprisoned/hibernating...even if they were hibernating, one of them would probably stick around to keep the grass growing and the sun coming up or whatever it is ancient gods do in Thedas while the others took a nap...if they were so benevolent.

Except that we know that the Old Gods exist in this medium. And who can say that the Old Gods weren't imprisoned by the malevolent Maker? Even if he did create humans and elves (the jury's still out on dwarves) that appears to be the only remotely good thing he's ever done, even according to Chantry lore.

She gave her ring to find your Warden once again and she didn't do it for a practical reason, she did it because she cared. I mean, why would she need the Warden any longer? She has the child and Flemeth is death. There is no other reason for Morrigan to give your Warden her ring other than she just cared and wanted to find her friend/lover, the Warden.

Obviously she only gives it to a guy she's romancing at a certain approval level, but you can get it far before you even hear of Flemeth's first grimoire let alone get her pregnant with a demon baby.

[Brockololly]

TSamee wrote...

Agh... I posted something god-knows-how-long regarding this, and possible theories on Morrigan. Obviously, yeah, my main PC fell in love with Morrigan, and yes, I plan on searching for her later. And yes, I know that she could be evil, or perhaps she has evil plans (because we're all human, and thus can't be completely evil), or maybe she's part of a "master plan" by Flemeth (Morrigan expressed doubt that the Warden killed her mother. I doubt she's as easy to kill as the quest shows us, or the multitude of badass dragonslaying Wardens that have existed through history could all have had a shot at killing her). Perhaps she followed Flemeth's plan (god-child) but then plans to do something else with the child if the Warden fell in love with her/tried to make her less of an emotional train-wreck. Or maybe she's stayed cold, and it was all an act, and you're now boned because you've given a child with potentiall huge amounts of power to someone who you really don't know a thing about.

And that's the thing about Morrigan, for me. Not that she's hot, but because you find that, beneath the cold exterior and arrogance, she could just be an unsure, insecure woman. Her discussions about love with the Warden could show that, deep inside, she's been a trainwreck on conflicting emotions since she started the relationship with the Warden. Initially, we feel like showing some love to the cold, detached woman, possibly out of pity. Then, we try and make her more human, try to get her to accept love. And, after the playthrough's over, we look back on it, and it's all too possible that we've just been manipulated. Most guys'll go for her because she's hot, and then because she's vulnerable. She said it herself, something along the lines of "all men are prepared to believe two things about a woman: that she's weak, and that she finds him attractive." Well, we've been attracted to her on an emotional level because she's weak.

Frankly, I know far too little about Morrigan to make a decision. What if she's a member of a Dragon Cult? What kind of spin would that put on things? After all, she does have a unique eye colour that she shares with Flemmeth (the Codex mentions members being physically changed), and she's silent in the town where you retrieve the ashes, whereas she shoots her mouth off in every other zone. Or maybe she's in league with Flemmeth. Maybe she loves you, but feels her mission's too important. Perhaps she set out to manipulate you but fell in love. The whole relationship could have just been an act on her part. Maybe she's actually vulnerable. Maybe she'll do something different with the child after being with the Warden.

When talking about her personality, her feelings, her motives, you can only use "maybe". With our present knowledge of her, there are no absolutes at all. And, frankly, I'd like to believe that, while she most likely has a darker/power-related purpose in mind for the child, I might be able to make her change her point of view, get her to love me, or at least regret acting the way she did. But that's assuming her purpose for the child is "evil", of course. And we're forgetting that there's no black and white in Dragon Age, only shades of grey. There's guaranteed to be a part of Morrigan's plan that we understand, that we feel will be "good". There's guaranteed to be a part that we don't like.

Frankly, I hope BioWare doesn't cop out and make our choices have no serious impace on DA2. The ways characters react, the way Morrigan could react to you if you see her again, the lives of thousands, all of these were shaped by your decision in Origins. I know it's a damn tall order, but if BioWare make your choices here actually count in a sequel...

^This
I think thats the thing with Morrigan and Flemeth: At the end of the game we really don't know a whole lot more about their true motives than we do at the beginning of the game. Thats part of what makes them intriguingbut it also makes it a bit frustrating. Basically any speculation anyone comes up with could end up being the case as it relates to Morrigan and Flemeth since everything they say is either cryptic or possibly a half-truth.

That said, I think when romancing Morrigan her feelings for the Warden are genuine. She was raised and conditioned by Flemeth to think that love is a weakness; that survival and power are all that matter. Yet she starts feeling love towards the Warden which sends her into emotional trainwreck mode and she stops having sex with the PC since she is feeling love and doesn't know how to deal with such a feeling that has been instilled in her as being a weakness. Ultimately with the Dark RItual,  she doesn't get rid of her love for the Warden, but whatever plan she has for the Old God Baby  is seemingly that important to her that she feels the need to go away from the Warden. Now maybe she's just runnning away because she is afraid of feeling love towards the Warden or maybe its a more pragmatic reason- we don't know.

My big concern is that Bioware will end the Warden's story without some resolution to his/her relationship with Morrigan. I sure hope not, but we'll just have to wait and see.

[Terra_Ex]

Didn't David Gaider post something some time ago stating that people who thought Morrigan's affection was all a ruse were off the mark - I vaguely recall something along those lines.

[Master Shiori]

Not sure.

I've been looking for David's post regarding Morrigan, but there appear to be precious few of those.



I'm not ceirtain if that means thre are plans for the character and he can't talk about her for fear of dropping spoilers or if he just isn't as fond of her as he is of Alistair...

[Herr Uhl]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Didn't David Gaider post something some time ago stating that people who thought Morrigan's affection was all a ruse were off the mark - I vaguely recall something along those lines.

Well he wrote the comic that Aimo drew, here