234 réponses à ce sujet

[Oloria]

Just curious, but where does the impression that Isolde doesn't care about the suffering to Redcliffe citizens come from? I got the impression she did care very much, and wanted it all to stop, but only as long as no harm came to her son. Sure, it's selfish that she considers Connor's life more important than dozens of other lives, but she's his mother and she loves him. Love *is* selfish.



I felt sorry for her. She was in a terrible position, albeit of her own doing, for which there was no good outcome. Even if you're nice and go to the Circle she still loses her son in the end; the very thing she was trying to prevent in the first place.



If I hated anyone in that scenario, it was Jowan. I always advise Eamon to hand him back to the Mage Tower in the hope they do the Rite of Tranquility on that moron!

[Sarah1281]

Bl1nder wrote...

Korva wrote...
Maybe she actually has some redeeming qualities when all she has to worry about is which dress to put on in the morning, who knows. But as it is, she embodies the worst side of "nobility": spoiled, hypocritical, arrogant, uncaring and vapid. Beats me what Eamon sees in her.

20 years his juniour is my guess And i agree with the rest you said, thats why she must suffer, as such connor dies ;o

And you don't think intentionally and maliciously killing an innocent child because his mother annoys you and you want to make her suffer is just as bad, if not worse? Isolde, for all her faults, isn't trying to enable - enable, not cause - all this death and destruction, she's just in over her head, seemingly incapable of making a rational decision (much like Jowan), short-sighted, and, as she says, too preoccupied to concern herself with social graces. Unless you think she someone only realizes this is all her fault when you kill her, she knows damn well she messed up and just because she doesn't tell you this doesn't mean she's in denial.

To me, not bringing Connor to the Circle was her biggest mistake. Once Eamon was poisoned (and if Jowan hadn't done it, chances are Loghain would have found a way to get to one of the servants) and Connor made the deal with the demon, there was nothing she could have done. She could have possibly killed her son, yes, but you can hardly crucify her for hesitating to commit filicide.

[Urshakk]

Desyndra wrote...
... and now the conclusion:

*PC returns to camp. A shadow emerges near Morrigan's tent, and an icy voice is heard in the night:

"I suppose you don't know anything about the miserable thief who took my clothes while I was sleeping."

PC: 'Erm....".

*Bright flash*

PC: *ribbit*... *ribbit*

Alistair (mumbles in his sleep): "Zap! Zap! Frog time!".

Not again! Grrr, I must of drank too much Captain Morrigan again at camp. (See what I did there? )

Oh well.... guess I'll just go swim it off in the pond again.

Cenwyn wrote...

Oh and her whining voice is rrreeeallyyy fricking annoying! Makes me want to stuff with something in it or get duck tape. "Silence is golden, ducktape is silver"

Nails on a chalkboard sounds like music compared to her voice, especially during the parts where she is basically wailing. *shudders*

Oloria wrote...
If I hated anyone in that scenario, it was Jowan. I always advise Eamon to hand him back to the Mage Tower in the hope they do the Rite of Tranquility on that moron!

Jowan is a tool though, so it doesn't really surprise anyone that he had made another mistake. (especially if you're mage origin) Isolde on the other hand is an arlessa and has responsibilities, she is expected to take care of them. So when she does not, she will get hate of course.

Modifié par Urshakk, 01 mai 2010 - 04:19 .

[Oloria]

Urshakk wrote...
Jowan is a tool though, so it doesn't really surprise anyone that he had made another mistake. (especially if you're
mage origin) Isolde on the other hand is an arlessa and has responsibilities, she is expected to take care of them. So when she does not, she will get hate of course.

She also has responsibilities as a mother. To expect a mother to put the lives of strangers, no matter how many, before the life of her own child is to expect her to go against everything that seems natural, regardless of who she is or what position she holds. Seems to me that if you're going to hate Isolde for that, then you might as well hate all mothers!

Jowan, on the other hand, only ever acted out of self-preservation.  I can still sympathise to an extent. After all, he's not a hero like the PC: he's just another ordinary, flawed human. And who wouldn't fear the prospect of losing your abilty to feel emotions ever again? It must be even more terrifying if you're newly in love too, as he was. But whereas Jowan made one poor decision after another in doomed efforts to save himself, Isolde made one misguided decision to protect her son and then found herself in far too deep with no way out except killing her only child. Personally, I am far more sympathetic to the latter.

p.s. Actually, hate is too strong a word to describe my reaction to Jowan and I take it back! I didn't hate Jowan, but I did /facepalm at him many times... I consider making him tranquil the safest condition for both Ferelden and for himself!

EDIT: Weird, not sure what happened to my post formatting then. Fixed now... I hope.

Modifié par Oloria, 01 mai 2010 - 08:27 .

[Willowhugger]

I think it's interesting that the Orlesian nobility get treated as such despicable bastards in Dragon Age. Even the sympathetic ones.  What's interesting is the Orlesian girl in the marketplace pretty much states that Fereldan and Orlais have different expectations of what being a noble is all about.

In Fereldan, it's a duty.

In Orlais, it's being part of the master race.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 01 mai 2010 - 09:06 .

[Korva]

Oloria wrote...

Just curious, but where does the impression that Isolde doesn't care about the suffering to Redcliffe citizens come from?

It comes from hearing nothing but her wailing about her brat, not to mention her lies by omission and her general attitude. Maker knows I tried to wring some kind, any kind of admission of guilt or the smallest shred of concern for the people of Redcliffe out of her dialog tree, but I failed. She blames Jowan, and rightfully so since that moron did play a part, but she is at least as much to blame and should be held as responsible.

I'm not spiteful enough to butcher her kid in front of her (though one or two of my unplayed alts may feel different), not to mention that I doubt it would make her wail about him any less and care about all the other dead any more. But it would have been good to be able to shut her up forcefully and get much harsher in the dialogs in general.

Sure, it's selfish that she considers Connor's life more important than dozens of other lives, but she's his mother and she loves him. Love *is* selfish.

My word. But that is still no excuse, especially in a position of power and responsibility. Even if she's just the real arl's vapid little brood sow, she bloody well has an obligation to these people especially while her husband is incapacitated.

I felt sorry for her. She was in a terrible position, albeit of her own doing, for which there was no good outcome.

I'd be able to feel sorry if she gave the merest shred of a sign of guilt and regret. As it is, I just want to break her jaw at the least and hand her over to the Chantry.

Willowhugger wrote...

What's interesting is the Orlesian girl in the marketplace pretty much states that Fereldan and Orlais have
different expectations of what being a noble is all about.

In Fereldan, it's a duty.

In Orlais, it's being part of the master race.

Well, that is the theory at least, and I imagine the Couslands for example lived up to it and raised my character with a very firm devotion to duty and protecting her people. But Howe and the bastard in the city elf origin show that the "Orlesian" attitude exists in Ferelden too. Which is amusing since Howe betrayed the Couslands partly because they were too friendly with the old enemy -- an enemy he conspired with at first, I might add, so double irony here. Too bad it wasn't possible to call him an Orlesian before ripping his guts out.

Modifié par Korva, 01 mai 2010 - 11:59 .

[Sarah1281]

Which is amusing since Howe betrayed the Couslands partly because they were too friendly with the old enemy -- an enemy he conspired with at first, I might add, so double irony here. Too bad it wasn't possible to call him an Orlesian before ripping his guts out.

No he didn't. His father/possible grandfather did (the previous Arl) and after he was hung as a traitor Rendon brought the Howes over to the rebellion.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 mai 2010 - 12:01 .

[Willowhugger]

As a note, Rendon Howe is also someone that is an abberation in Fereldan nobility.  Hell, he's an abberation in his own family.  Nathaniel and Grandpa Howe are both reasonably nice guys.  The wiring just went wrong somewhere in Papa Howe.

Still, the Arl of Denerim shows that some Fereldan nobles just are just plain bastards.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 02 mai 2010 - 12:03 .

[Oloria]

I agree that overall Isolde does come across as very resistant to accepting blame, but how hard it must be to admit to yourself that you've indirectly brought about a massacre on your village and suffering to the most important person in your life. I am not surprised she denies it at first. To her credit (admittedly it isn't easy to find in her dialogue), there are indications that she does know what she has done and the suffering she is, at least in part, responsible for.

Isolde: Eamon would only demand we do the right thing! I was not going to lose my son! Not to... to magic!
PC: You've brought this on yourself, woman.
Isolde: Maker help me, I know! I should be punished, not Connor! There must be something we can do!

If you choose to kill Connor she says this later:
PC: I'm sorry it had to come to that.
Isolde: I'm sorry, too. Much of this was my fault. I... do not hold you responsible for any of it. Go in peace, and do what you must.

As an aside, there are also hints in her conversation that she has more reason to fear magic than most, though we don't have any way to learn the details:

Isolde: Eamon would only demand we do the right thing! I was not going to lose my son! Not to... to magic!
PC: Would that have been so terrible?
Isolde: Magic... runs in my family. The ones who had it were all terrible, sinful men. I didn't know what to do when I found out!

I get the impression that Isolde's hostility towards the PC is because beneath her defiant exterior, really she knows she made a mistake with terrible results, but is terrified of the only obvious solution to it. She knows that a stranger to the family would be far less hesitant to sacrifice a child if it came to it and so when she meets the PC, she immediately sees him/her as a direct threat to her son. Teagon, on the other hand, is Connor's uncle and so perhaps (at least in her mind) more likely to work with her to find a solution that spares her son's life.

All that said, there may be plenty of other reasons to dislike Isolde. If she really does share the Orlesian Chevalier attitude that she and her kind are rightfully superior to peasants, then that's one right there (although I don't consider resisting attempts to kill her own child as evidence that she believes her family is too good to sacrifice for commoners). Personally, I just can't hate her for her actions over Connor's possession alone, probably because as a mother myself I can relate too much to her fear.

Anyway, I've written too much on this now heh so I think I'll leave it there. Thanks folks for the discussion, it's been interesting reading all the different reactions to Isolde's character (even if one or two of them scared me a bit ).

[sylvanaerie]

Willowhugger wrote...

As a note, Rendon Howe is also someone that is an abberation in Fereldan nobility.  Hell, he's an abberation in his own family.  Nathaniel and Grandpa Howe are both reasonably nice guys.  The wiring just went wrong somewhere in Papa Howe.

Still, the Arl of Denerim shows that some Fereldan nobles just are just plain bastards.

Well they say greatness skips a generation.  All Howe had going for him aside from ruthlessness was the sheer awesome of Tim Curry.

*Edit* On the original topic: Isolde's protestations of concern were too puny and too late and still not very believable.  If you ask to execute Jowan (she is ALL for that, continuing to heap the blame on his shoulders).  She shrieks "I am the Arlessa, who says SHE gets to decide" when you choose to kill Connor.  THEN runs up and tries to stop you.  I don't blame a mother for protecting her child but funny she seems to forget her position as arlessa (and protector of those under her) until she can use it to her advantage.  When you ask her about Jowan's ritual and Teagan protests Eamon won't like it, her line seems more about escaping Eamon's ire than any guilt on the things that have transpired than accepting culpability.  I agree with some that like the other Orlesians she has a "Some pigs are more equal than others" mentality. (Animal Farm reference there).  

She displays not ONE iota of concern for the people she has enabled to be killed.  Innocent men, women AND children mind you CHILDREN.  So her shrieking about her child doesn't move me to the bounds of compassion it normally would.  I feel sorry for Connor INFINITELY sorry but I feel little compassion for his cow of a mother.

I blame Isolde in great part and Loghain must share some of that blame as well.  Funny how the ONLY one who accepts blame for the situation and accepts whatever judgement they decide is Jowan who was a tool those higher ups used to create this mess.  This doesn't excuse Jowan by any means because he REALLY makes hugely horrid choices.  But he shouldn't shoulder all the blame for it.  Isolde doesn't even blame Loghain (she trusted him, more the fool her).

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 02 mai 2010 - 01:28 .