762 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Re: LotSB.



Correcting mistakes or whatever, this DLC was planned for during the ME2 proper development. It was not meant to appease Liara fans. Liara has a special place in the ME trilogy, a place that none of the other squadmate-charachters has.

[Babli]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Re: Garrus.

TSB's dossier indicates that Garrus' own talents are overshadowed by Shepard and probably are not going to come to full potential if he remains on Shepard's team. Am I the only one getting hint here?

No, it's just your remarkable ability to see things and patterns where there are none.

Well, then I have this ability too:wizard:
It may be a hint. And may not. You cant say for sure.

[Zulu_DFA]

Re: Wrex.



It's actually my canon story that Shepard did not recruit Wrex. I also never had the "Ah, yes, Reapers..." scene on my screen (not even via youtube).



Into ME3 I will be importing a single save with only 5 squadmates alive.



I'm not content-greedy. I just speculate... logically.

[AdmiralCheez]

The variables you discussed could be resolved with one or two conversations. Hell, the programmed and recorded HOW many lines for Shepard? Also, look what happened with Conrad. I hate retcons, but it could happen (here's hoping it doesn't). And it is BECAUSE this is the grand finale that returning characters make more sense than throwing a bunch of new guys into the mix. That'd be like replacing C-3PO and R2 with new robots in Return of the Jedi.  Even if C-3PO died in The Empire Strikes Back, wouldn't that be a dirty thing to do?

I could be wrong, but Liara is unlikely to be a squadmate due to her duties as the Shadow Broker. In fact, I'd say Liara is even less likely to be recruitable than some of the folks on your ME2 team. Like Wrex, her new role is more important than being your sidekick. Although if Wrex is recruitable again, I'd take him in a heartbeat. That krogan is a badass, but he belongs on Tuckanka.

So yeah, there still are seventeen possible cameos. Sorry, bro.

I myself prefer quality over quantity, but that quality may lie in sticking with a few old character and doing a smashing job with a few new guys. New teammates is a good thing, certainly. I'm really pulling for a batarian and a female turian. Also, I'm expecting new human LIs, since that seems to be the pattern. However, I agree that the focus should shift back to the plot. The size of the squad doesn't matter to me if each character is implemented well and the central storyline is stronger than that whole farce with the Collectors.

As for Garrus, it's an interesting point, but that might be resolved in the epilogue or at some point during the course of the game. He could start out on your squad, and then leave at some point. I'd prefer to keep him the whole time, but if the writers have a better idea, so be it. Have him go save his sick mother or become a Spectre or something. So long as his new role isn't cheap and stupid, I won't mind at all.

Whatever the outcome is, I'm more concerned with how well it's done than who goes and who stays. My point is that you are being opinionated and pessimistic. You make several good points, but just as many are bad and not well thought-out. I am doing my best to cover everything you've mentioned, including what I agree with, but you seem to be focusing just on the things you don't like. The PS3 thing. The three musketeers. The fact that Wrex can be skipped entirely. There's more to forums than just disagreeing with each other.

EDIT TO FIT YOUR RESPONSE: Okay, so you covered Wrex.  I will also be importing a save with only Zaeed and Kasumi alive for the lulz.  And again, there is nothing logical about your speculation if you are taking it as fact.

EDITED AGAIN BECAUSE I MISSED THE LIARA THING: However, LotSB DID improve on the things the fans sugessted be improved (boss battles and banter, for one thing), and even further hinted that she will NOT be a squadmate in ME3.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 20 novembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

The variables you discussed could be resolved with one or two conversations.

Via cameo.

AdmiralCheez wrote... 
And it is BECAUSE this is the grand finale that returning characters make more sense than throwing a bunch of new guys into the mix.

Characters will be returning. As cameos.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
That'd be like replacing C-3PO and R2 with new robots in Return of the Jedi.  Even if C-3PO died in The Empire Strikes Back, wouldn't that be a dirty thing to do?

I am officially willing to make a vow here:

If in ME3 Tali returns as a Quarian Admiral and says "It's a trap!", I will consider going back to ME 2 and replaying it to revive her in my canon!

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I could be wrong, but Liara is unlikely to be a squadmate due to her duties as the Shadow Broker. In fact, I'd say Liara is even less likely to be recruitable than some of the folks on your ME2 team.

Liara's duty as 100% alive former squadmate will be to rejoin Shepard's squad.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Like Wrex, her new role is more important than being your sidekick.

You mean the Wrex who wasn't recruited by me? I  mean, it's not that hard to be more important than a Krogan bounty hunter...

 the focus should shift back to the plot.

And for that the old, used up characters can contribute nothing. Only new characters can advance the plot like Ashley, Garrus/Wrex, Tali and Liara did in ME1.

 I will also be importing a save with only Zaeed and Kasumi alive for the lulz.  And again, there is nothing logical about your speculation if you are taking it as fact.

For the lulz, I suggest you make it clearer: use the save editor and kill off Zaeed & Kasumi as well. An import with ALL SQUADMATES DEAD!!!

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Via cameo.

Or as a fully recruitable squadmate.  It could go either way.

Characters will be returning. As cameos.

Jesus Christ, are you going to submit any new evidence to the table or just repeat yourself?

I am officially willing to make a vow here:

If in ME3 Tali returns as a Quarian Admiral and says "It's a trap!", I will consider going back to ME 2 and replaying it to revive her in my canon!

As epic as that would be, it is unlikely.  Of course, you're just being a jerk and not considering my point.

Liara's duty as 100% alive former squadmate will be to rejoin Shepard's squad.

So Liara's allowed to return but no one else is?  Even though she has a whopping big reason to stay where she is?

You mean the Wrex who wasn't recruited by me? I  mean, it's not that hard to be more important than a Krogan bounty hunter...

Ah-HA!  There you see my point.  Wrex, even though you could have skipped him entirely and wasn't even recruitable in ME2, still played a fairly important role.  A role only the people who bothered to import got to experinece.  And because of that import, the political environment of Tuchanka was completely different than the default.  And before you cry "BUT HE WAS JUST A CAMEO," please keep in mind that Garrus could also be skipped and still got to be a full-fledged squadmate.  See, look!  Bioware made a lovely effort to incorporate a character that could have died in the first one.  Who's to say they can't do it again, only better?  With a recruitable squadmate?

And for that the old, used up characters can contribute nothing. Only new characters can advance the plot like Ashley, Garrus/Wrex, Tali and Liara did in ME1.

If that's the case, I suppose we should scrap Joker and Shepard as well.  Really, the longevity of a character has nothing to do with their importance to the plot.  Sometimes characters are sidekicks.  Friends.  Supporters and heralds of the hero.  The Robin to Shep's Batman (sans homoerotic innuendo), the Ron and Hermione to his Harry Potter.  They exist to stand by his (or her, three cheers for FemSheps) side, provide advice, and pull his ass out of the fire when danger strikes.  How boring would things be if each character was just a MacGuffin?

For the lulz, I suggest you make it clearer: use the save editor and kill off Zaeed & Kasumi as well. An import with ALL SQUADMATES DEAD!!!

I prefer to aviod save editors and I'd rather not sabotage my data, thanks.

Also, you're doing it again; ignoring the parts where I agreed or made a strong point.  Seriously, dude, I'm trying to have a thoughtful discussion here, not to troll or be trolled.  Please be a little more respectful.  People will take you more seriously if you do.

[Zulu_DFA]

All right. Let's make it serious. Now, which of the "strong points" I've skipped do you want me to address first?

[AdmiralCheez]

Thanks! If you could start with my last post, that'd be great. It'd give me a minute to go back and re-read what we've already covered. Be sure to include why you think Liara would leave her duties as the Shadow Broker to be your sidekick, even though her information network would probably be much more valuable than her biotics and pistol. Exclude the fact that she's the only one who is alive for certain, since that's an issue of game mechanics and not of plot structure.



Again, thanks for being civil. I really appreciate it. :-)

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
why you think Liara would leave her duties as the Shadow Broker to be your sidekick, even though her information network would probably be much more valuable than her biotics and pistol. Exclude the fact that she's the only one who is alive for certain, since that's an issue of game mechanics and not of plot structure.

Regretfully, I cannot fully exclude the issue of game mechanics. Neither can I exclude the issue of marketing. Promising to have "some old squadmates rejoin" is what BioWare will want to do. And Liara is the Number 1 candidate to fill this position of a rejoining squadmate. And not only because she can't die, but also because her "daddy issues" are invariable, and her loyalty to Shepard is invariable, and her standing in th ME universe is invariable. She is pretty much a known quantinty, which the writers can operate freely with.

What will be the in-game reason for her to abandon the Shadow Broker's ship? Not her choice, probably. Necessity. Hostile activity may make it unsafe for her to remain there. Or her Prothean expertise will be needed in field... She always wanted to return to Ilos, remember?

The value of TSB's information network will play out, of course. In the very beginning of ME3 it will provide some important revelatory clue for Shepard to pursue and investigate. But nothing says TSB's network must remain the only quest dispenser over the course of ME3.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 novembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[Big stupid jellyfish]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I could be wrong, but Liara is unlikely to be a squadmate due to her duties as the Shadow Broker. In fact, I'd say Liara is even less likely to be recruitable than some of the folks on your ME2 team. Like Wrex, her new role is more important than being your sidekick. Although if Wrex is recruitable again, I'd take him in a heartbeat. That krogan is a badass, but he belongs on Tuckanka.

This.

I don't remember seeing anyone else posting this idea but I came to it too after playing SB. Liara actually accepts the role of the SB to help you fight the Reapers; seems she would be much more useful and important as our informant. Actually, I think that she would join the squad at some point, but only after all the valuable info would be obtained/at hand.

We should say goodbye to Zaeed and Kasumi, I feel, because they're DLCs; I guess Samara/Morinth is out of the squad, too. As for the others -- all LIs would return; that's just my guess, though. Unpredictable Bioware is unpredictable.

P.S. The topic-starter may ignore this post 'cos I'm not talking to him.

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Regretfully, I cannot fully exclude the issue of game mechanics. Neither can I exclude the issue of marketing. Promising to have "some old squadmates rejoin" is what BioWare will want to do. And Liara is the Number 1 candidate to fill this position of a rejoining squadmate. And not only because she can't die, but also because her "daddy issues" are invariable, and her loyalty to Shepard is invariable, and her standing in th ME universe is invariable. She is pretty much a known quantinty, which the writers can operate freely with.

What will be the in-game reason for her to abandon the Shadow Broker's ship? Not her choice, probably. Necessity. Hostile activity may make it unsafe for her to remain there. Or her Prothean expertise will be needed in field... She always wanted to return to Ilos, remember?

Okay, I can see her rejoining if her identity is compromised.  Maybe she can be a last-minute squadmate, like Legion.  I like that idea, actually.  Maybe it's a "no-turning-back" sort of thing where the whole galaxy's gone to hell and the information infrastructure she relied on is destroyed.  Moving on, please consider the importance of friends and sidekicks, as I mentioned above.  I'm not going to retype it here, but it's about how characters that provide support are just as important as characters that actively advance the plot.  Take Miranda, for example: she's fairly difficult to kill (the only way you can get away with it is if she's not loyal and you take her with you to fight the giant terminator fetus or majorly screw up holding the line) and would make a fairly decent second-in-command.  Another person who could possibly fulfill that role is Garrus, since he has irrevokable bro-status and seems to be the one guy you can trust.  All they would require is squadmate status, about an hour's worth of dialogue total (including banter with other squadmates and all possible responses--really, when you think about it, just a little bit can go a long way), and a few snippets of advice they could drop during mission briefings.  What's your response to that?

@BigStupidJellyfish: Yep, not gonna lie, DLC squaddies are probably gone forever.  Bioware IS one unpredictable little bastard, and I REALLY hope I don't read too many spoilers and ruin it for myself this time around.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 20 novembre 2010 - 11:57 .

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Moving on, please consider the importance of friends and sidekicks, as I mentioned above. I'm not going to retype it here, but it's about how characters that provide support are just as important as characters that actively advance the plot.

Joker.



(Also added a bit to the previous post.)

[Jaron Oberyn]

Oh. Look. It's this thread again.



-Polite

[AdmiralCheez]

@Zulu: I see your edits, and I agree with them. But why does Joker have to be the ONLY one? I explained how to fit Miranda and Garrus in (or hell, just one of them) without burdening the new player or wasting too many resources on them. Is this a bad thing? Can you see it happening?



This is a thought that's been bouncing around in my head for a while, but you know what'd be an awesome bone to throw the folks who made the effort to save both of them? Seeing those two argue over what course of action to take next after Shepard's temporarily out of action for some reason. It'd be the most epic shouting match ever. Plus maybe you'd get a neat little mission where your team splits up and you get to play as a squadmate. Not sure how they'd do it for the folks who nerfed the whole old squad, though. Maybe some new character takes charge, and you get to play as him/her. So they don't get the epic shouting match, so what? If they got them killed, they probably didn't care much about them, anyway, and if they're new to the series, I spent sixty more bucks than they did and I think a single bonus scene isn't asking too much.



Stupid and off-topic idea, but I like it.

[McBeath]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Oh. Look. It's this thread again.

-Polite

This

[AdmiralCheez]

McBeath wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Oh. Look. It's this thread again.

-Polite

This

Ssshh.  I got Zulu to actually dicuss this seriously for once.

[GracefulChicken]

Video games is serious business.

[AdmiralCheez]

@GracefulChicken: Damn straight.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
But why does Joker have to be the ONLY one?

Because he is the only mate tha can't die, can't have itching daddy issues, can't get romanced. If you're looking for a squadmate "OK guy", that probably be Feron. Comes with Liara in one package, has a history with Shepard, is introduced via LotSB. Still has a history with Shepard even if one haven't played LotSB.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I explained how to fit Miranda and Garrus in (or hell, just one of them) without burdening the new player or wasting too many resources on them. Is this a bad thing? Can you see it happening?

No.

I thought myself that Miranda was going to be "preserved", But the logic points to the conclusion that she was being "preserved" only up till the last "suicide mission" section. Hard or not, she is killable like anybody else.

Of the ME2 squadmates the best chances (up to 40% by my personal estimatometer) to rejoin has Legion, due to his supposedly pure math personality and possibility of back-up copying. Still too many odd variables to account: not activated; sent to Cerberus; loyalty mission incomplete, loyalty lost during catfight, killed at C-Base.

Any "more interactive character" has to have unique interactions with every other squadmate on every mission, and at all main locations. Plus an excuse to rejoin without a specific recruitment mission, which means some kind of plot relevance. But for a potentially dead character with plot relevance there needs to be a "stunt double", to uphold the plot integrity. Also each fully fledged expendable means one less new, plot-advancing fashion show winner.

There is also a problem of "fairness". If one ME2 expendable is made recruitable, why not some other? If one ME2 LI rejoins, why not all of them... and why not the really most popular ME2 characters, who aren't LIs -- Legion & Mordin?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:59 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

McBeath wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Oh. Look. It's this thread again.

-Polite

This

Ssshh.  I got Zulu to actually dicuss this seriously for once.

That's quite an accomplishment.  Seriously. 

-Polite

[Da_Lion_Man]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

McBeath wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Oh. Look. It's this thread again.

-Polite

This

Ssshh.  I got Zulu to actually dicuss this seriously for once.

That's quite an accomplishment.  Seriously. 

-Polite

I remember you arguing a lot with smudboy... what happened to him? Did he get banned? Sorry for going offtopic BTW.

[AdmiralCheez]

Because he is the only mate tha can't die, can't have itching daddy issues, can't get romanced. If you're looking for a squadmate "OK guy", that probably be Feron. Comes with Liara in one package, has a history with Shepard, is introduced via LotSB. Still has a history with Shepard even if one haven't played LotSB.

Fair enough.  Joker's got a guaranteed return, pretty much.  I'm more interested in the more ambiguous ones, though.

I thought myself that Miranda was going to be "preserved", But the logic points to the conclusion that she was being "preserved" only up till the last "suicide mission" section. Hard or not, she is killable like anybody else.

EVERYONE is killable expect Liara.  Which is why you started your thread in the first place.  I am arguing that, even if they are mortal, they could still be recruitable again.

Of the ME2 squadmates the best chances (up to 40% by my personal estimatometer) to rejoin has Legion, due to his supposedly pure math personality and possibility of back-up copying. Still too many odd variables to account: not activated; sent to Cerberus; loyalty mission incomplete, loyalty lost during catfight, killed at C-Base.

So he can either die (Wrex) or not be recruited at all (Garrus).  Both characters made a rather acceptable return.  Garrus was even recruitable.  I'd say Grunt has a higher probability of returning than he does, since he doesn't get into any catfights and you have to at least pick up the tank to continue.  Of course, you could just NOT open the tank, but how can you resist?  Baby krogan!  I wants it!

Any "more interactive character" has to have unique interactions with every other squadmate on every mission, and at all main locations. Plus an excuse to rejoin without a specific recruitment mission, which means some kind of plot relevance. But for a potentially dead character with plot relevance there needs to be a "stunt double", to uphold the plot integrity. Also each fully fledged expendable means one less new, plot-advancing fashion show winner.

Remeber the elevator conversations?  They had a set list of possible convos, several of which overlapped each other.  Even though it was just copy-paste, it made the team feel more like a team and less like a bunch of fashion show contestants.  That stuff's not that hard to make or program, as far as I understand, so why not throw it back in?  Just not in the Elevators of Eternal Peril.  Stuff like Samara's recruitment mission comes to mind: they all said pretty much the same thing, but talked to each other, stayed in character, and mocked Shepard in the process.

As for in-mission chitchat, they didn't really converse with each other in ME1, either, but they did have unique little quips while out in the field, like ME2.  Hell, even the DLC characters reacted the things going on around them!  Kasumi even pulls an ah-yes-Reapers, complete with airquotes.  And a lot of people didn't even recruit her!

Who needs recruitment missions, anyway?  Returning squadmates could just be there when you first start, or show up a la Zaeed/Kasumi.  Cheap, but doable.  Perhaps an entrance more relevant to the plot, but no need to run across burning courtyards while shooting geth on Haestrom.  Also, they wouldn't need "stunt doubles."  They'd just not be present at all.  Assuming only a few of them return anyway, with a couple present in the default save, no big deal.  There'd be plenty of room for new characters, and people who saved Character X won't have to miss out on Character Y.  Compared to the default, people who saved everyone get a little extra (maybe just one or two squadmates), while those that didn't get a little less.  Seems reasonable to me.

There is also a problem of "fairness". If one ME2 expendable is made recruitable, why not some other? If one ME2 LI rejoins, why not all of them... and why not the really most popular ME2 characters, who aren't LIs -- Legion & Mordin?

Easy.  Make it fit in the story.  I reeeaaaally wanted Wrex back, but I understood that King of Krogans > Shepard Sidekick.  In fact, I felt damn proud of him for taking on his new role (huzzah, emotional immersion!).  Liara and the VS were major letdowns, too, but LotSB redeemed one of them.  Sure, I would rage endlessly if we were stuck with Jacob but ditched Mordin, but if Mordin had a new, more important role to fulfill, I'd be cool with it.  Besides, Jacob's better than nothing, and his return might give Bioware a chance to make him less hideously boring, like they did with Tali.  Any old face at all would be welcome.  What's REALLY unfair is having it be "just Liara," since a lot of people didn't even play ME1 or download LotSB.  They'd be all, "Of all the people to return, I get twitchy-eyed blue chick?  The hell is this?"

As for LIs, so far Liara's the only one who's made something even close to a return.  At this point, Kaidan/Ashley romancers are feeling mighty screwed, hence the million-page long "WE WANT VS DLC!" thread.  I guess that, no matter what Bioware does, someone will be pissed about it.  The trick is to ****** off the least amount of people possible without sacrificing continuity or breaking the game (or budget).  Not bringing anyone back at all would ****** off a lot of people.

[HolyJellyfish]

I doubt Liara will be recruitable. Her role is far more important as the shadow broker. She's like the Oracle, and Shepard has become Batman. She's pretty much replaced the Illusive Man in terms of financing Shepard and information gathering, as well as far more reliable.



I don't see why the ME2 crew wouldn't return. Their dialogue might be short, but they are still valid. If Shepard dies in ME2, you can't port him into ME3 - game over. Same goes for your crew. If they died in ME2, no go in ME3.



Non-playable crew that will survive include:

Mordin - He will continue upgrades independently and decipher Reaper weaknesses (Very valuable character)

Joker & EDI / Dr. Chakwas - Of course, navigation and medical help always important.

Tali - Will lead the Quarians (If she wasn't exiled - may even do so even if she is with the threat of reapers present); her role as LI also puts her in a special position.

Wrex - Will lead the Krogan

Legion - Will lead the Geth

Liara - Your own personal information bank. You will probably be contacting her like you had with the Illusive Man



Cameo crew:

Jack - Important. Still an LI

Samara - She already said she had no reason to stay on the Normandy once the Omega-4 Relay mission was over. But she will make an appearance.

Kasumi & Zaeed - DLC crew, make cameo



Playable Crew

Grunt - He is the obligatory krogan these days.

Jacob & Miranda - No where else to go

Garrus - The guy who is actually the Second in Command



(New-ish) Playable Crew

Kaiden/Ashley - I get the feeling they will defect from the Alliance to support Shepard, Also LI

Aria T'Loak - Rallies the Mercenaries. Fills in the Asarian role missing when Samara & Liara go elsewhere

Kal'Reegor - Fullfills Tali's playable role

Anderson - Why not?

Unknown Salarian

Any particular character from Shepard's past (be it a former gang member. A batarian, etc.)

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Which is why you started your thread in the first place. I am arguing that, even if they are mortal, they could still be recruitable again.

I started this thread becasue of the poll, which clearly shows that a squad of 6-8 is preferable over a squad of 10-12, for the sake of the elevator conversations and what not. And I am arguing that even if the ME2 squadmates weren't expendable, new squadmates would still be preferable because: seats 1&2 go to Liara and VS (by the right primacy), around 4 go to the new plot-advancing new faces, and the rest are to few to not incite squabble over "fairness" between ME2 squadmates.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

you could just NOT open the tank, but how can you resist?

Easy. I first opened it on my 4th playthrough, ran the loyalty quickly, got dissappointed, especially with the wussy thresher maw, reloaded before openning the tank and never opened it again.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Liara and the VS were major letdowns, too

Actually, as much as my Shepard scorns Ashley for her stupidity and disrespect, I as player find that she shows a lot more character in her short cameo than Tali and Garrus together.



What happened to the "strong points", BTW?



Am I going to be finally shown how investing a fully fledged squadmate's worth of time, money, manpower and disk space into a ME2 expendable can possibly be more lucrative for BioWare than investing the same amount of resources into a brand new squadmate that can be used as in a relevant ME3 plot device?

[Elite Midget]

I still stand that if ME2 Characters, who could all die, return as squad members than it will discriminate against those who didn't play ME2 or those who lost Squad Members in the suicide mission. Which in turns effects gameplay and progression balance as well as content in general. The fact that ME3 wont be starting immediatly after ME2, since Retribution is a year later and ME3 starts sometime after that, gives more emphasis, to me, that the ME2 squad will not be staying. A lot can happen in a couple years time as ME1->ME2 has shown.

I see all of the ME2 Squad mates getting the ME2 Wrex treatment. After all, they all can die. While Character like Ashley/Kaiden and Liara 'have' to appear in ME3 no matter what.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:33 .