762 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyJellyfish]

I also keep getting the impression that ME3 will have multiple endings ala Dragon Age. There is no one direction to go from there. Depending on what crew members you chose to save versus the choices you made in the games & DLC, how the game ends (Poorly, perfectly, etc) reflects those choices and just who survived through to the end. The Krogan race may go extinct if, say, you didn't save Wrex. The Quarians may go to war with the Geth if you chose to send Legion to Cerberus.

[AdmiralCheez]

@HolyJellyfish: Seriously, I do not understand the rationale behind making Aria and Anderson squadmates other than the fact that they are total badasses. Seriously, recruiting them is like a knight recruiting King Arthur. It's supposed to go the other way around. They are best suited for a support role, a la Wrex and Liara. As for Tali, I can see her helping win over the support of the quarians, but leading them? She's still a little young for that.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ooops, I've just realized something...

When ME3 comes out and there are no recruitable ME2 squaddies, people will cry "It's Zulu's fault! He jinxed it!!!". And grab their torches and pitchforks.

I'd better be long gone by then...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:39 .

[Elite Midget]

Why would they? It's more logical to just give characters that can die cameo's than to waste Character spots. At least VS and Liara 'have' to survive the events of ME1 and ME2.

[HolyJellyfish]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@HolyJellyfish: Seriously, I do not understand the rationale behind making Aria and Anderson squadmates other than the fact that they are total badasses. Seriously, recruiting them is like a knight recruiting King Arthur. It's supposed to go the other way around. They are best suited for a support role, a la Wrex and Liara. As for Tali, I can see her helping win over the support of the quarians, but leading them? She's still a little young for that.

I've read the comics and the books. They keep building up Aria's character.
Besides, Wrex & Liara were both playable before they were supporting characters. Aria hasn't had that opportunity yet.
We've had the chance to play an Asari Maiden (Liara), an Asari Matron (Samara), and now possibly an Asari Matriarch(Aria). She's also now working for Cerberus / The Illusive Man (Books). It would also make a Wrex & Aria meeting possible(Provided she is Aleena as speculated)

As for Anderson, he seems to be getting more and more fed up with the Citadel & The Alliance. I don't see why he wouldn't say 'screw it' and jump in on the chance to fight. And like Aria, his skills and background keep getting bolstered in the books and comics.

Tali maybe young, but that hasn't stopped her from A) Saving the Citadel,  Running her own mission, C) Diving into the middle of Geth territory (Leading her own squad), and D) Throwing herself into the Omega-4 Relay. Young she maybe, but the lady has more experience and knowledge than most other Quarians so far. She's a protege. Besides, ME3's timeline will probably start two years after ME2. That's plenty of time to lead the fleet.

[HolyJellyfish]

Elite Midget wrote...

Why would they? It's more logical to just give characters that can die cameo's than to waste Character spots. At least VS and Liara 'have' to survive the events of ME1 and ME2.

Because this is the final game and a lot of fans would be sour. Bioware has the opportunity to expand upon it as deeply as they want to - there is no ME game after 3. Its not as if character expansion is entirely necessary, just dialogue responses on certain things.

[Count Viceroy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ooops, I've just realized something...

When ME3 comes out and there are no recruitable ME2 squaddies, people will cry "It's Zulu's fault! He jinxed it!!!". And grab their torches and pitchforks.

I'd better be long gone by then...

You're the greatest troll these forums has ever had, along with Smudboy.

Congratulations

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Elite Midget]

My pal has never played ME. ME3 is his first game in the series. For some reason he has less Squad Members than ME2 Gamers despite the fact that 'EVERY SINGLE ME2 SQUAD MEMBER CAN DIE"' None of them have any scenerio where they 'have' to survive the events of ME2. Than there's the fact that characters like Thane and Mordin may very well be dead by ME3 any way due to Illness and Age.

See how unfair it is for you to want ZOMBIE Characters instead of new characters that can't die from the events of ME2.

Be happy with Cameo's because that's what you're gonna get. The Wrex Treatment.
Wrex was 'ONE' Squad Member and look how he was treated in ME2. Now how many dead Squad Members can a ME2 Save have again?

Nuff' Said.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Googlesaurus]

Elite Midget wrote...

I still stand that if ME2 Characters, who could all die, return as squad members than it will discriminate against those who didn't play ME2 or those who lost Squad Members in the suicide mission. Which in turns effects gameplay and progression balance as well as content in general. The fact that ME3 wont be starting immediatly after ME2, since Retribution is a year later and ME3 starts sometime after that, gives more emphasis, to me, that the ME2 squad will not be staying. A lot can happen in a couple years time as ME1->ME2 has shown.

I see all of the ME2 Squad mates getting the ME2 Wrex treatment. After all, they all can die. While Character like Ashley/Kaiden and Liara 'have' to appear in ME3 no matter what.

So what? Bioware loses out either way. 

[Elite Midget]

Bioware has so much more to gain than to try and balance the game with different Shepards having different numbers of initial Squad Mates.



That and I don't support the return of Zombies. I fully expect every one of them, if they even survive long enough to get in ME3, to get the ME2 Wrex Treatment. After all, none of the ME2 Squad Members 'have' to survive ME2. Than there are those that will die anyway such as Thane and maybe even Mordin.



While characters like Liara and VS 'have' to survive the events of ME1+ME2 and will be in everyones Save whether they be Default or Imported.

[Zulu_DFA]

Most importantly, in an interview about the ME2 feedback "crazy stats" Casey Hudson admitted that the rate of imported characters turned out to be much higher than expected. Which means that while planning out ME2, BioWare simply didn't count on people's caring much about importing characters... Which means the ME2 squadmates were there just for ME2.

[Googlesaurus]

Elite Midget wrote...

Bioware has so much more to gain than to try and balance the game with different Shepards having different numbers of initial Squad Mates.

That and I don't support the return of Zombies. I fully expect every one of them, if they even survive long enough to get in ME3, to get the ME2 Wrex Treatment. After all, none of the ME2 Squad Members 'have' to survive ME2. Than there are those that will die anyway such as Thane and maybe even Mordin.

While characters like Liara and VS 'have' to survive the events of ME1+ME2 and will be in everyones Save whether they be Default or Imported.

If Bioware brings back past characters it will discourage potential new buyers who don't want to buy past titles for the optimum gaming experience. Cries of catering to the smaller, more dedicated community will arise. 

If Bioware excludes all potentially dead characters then it adds legitimate ammunition to the "consequences=null" argument. Bad press and cries of catering to the casual gamer will arise. 

No-win situation.

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:31 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Googlesaurus wrote...
"consequences=null" argument.

... will be invalid and suppressed, as long as the survivors of the "suicide mission" get their due cameos, and the really "Big Choices" (Council's fate, C-Base status, Rachni queen fate, Geth Heretics' fate, etc.) are accounted for.

Besides, having ME2 squadmates dead or alive is not a choice. It's itself a consequence, which came into being within the stand-alone game, as a result of the choices: upgrading / non upgrading the Normandy, gaining & keeping or not the squadmates' loyaly, etc.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Miranda is the most likely to return due to her plot-armor. (only way to kill her is intentionally) And the fact that she is the "main squadmate" of me2. She's as important to 2 as Liara was to 1. kinda.

Mordin and Kasumi might return as mission partners for thier lingering plot threads (genophage, alliance data) Garrus could go either way, Thane will probably be a special mention for keeping him through all of 2, samara/morinth will probably be an either or similar to the feros representative you meet on illium. 

zaeed will probably be on the news or a sidequest on some planet, legion and tali will probably have some importance reguarding the geth and quarians, but it feels like, at least with tali, that you'll still get some quarian plot whether she's exhiled, exonerated, or expired.  (I bet that there might be some...under the hood scenes of tali in me3...she did say she wanted to feel your skin on hers...*ohshutup*) 

jacob will probably be there as much as kaiden/ashley were in me2 (he wasn't unimportant but he was also easy to kill, it's quite possible that many players would be thinking "I guess I should do what the game is telling me and send jacob") grunt will probably have a wrex style cameo, garrus i hope becomes a spectre or something...jack is a wildcard really....


Miranda might be the only returning squadmate, unless they're determining this stuff by A) Popularity and seed data for how much of the squad survived for people's saves during the first 6 months in the wild or something.  taking a more lenient stance though....There's room for everyone really, but if they do that it might cut down on what they can do with them for the plot.  Bringing back Miranda is probably about as far as they might go...unless....

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I started this thread becasue of the poll, which clearly shows that a squad of 6-8 is preferable over a squad of 10-12, for the sake of the elevator conversations and what not. And I am arguing that even if the ME2 squadmates weren't expendable, new squadmates would still be preferable because: seats 1&2 go to Liara and VS (by the right primacy), around 4 go to the new plot-advancing new faces, and the rest are to few to not incite squabble over "fairness" between ME2 squadmates.

You assume that "small squad" automatically means "no returning ME2 characters."  False correlation.

Easy. I first opened it on my 4th playthrough, ran the loyalty quickly, got dissappointed, especially with the wussy thresher maw, reloaded before openning the tank and never opened it again.

I get the feeling you don't like krogans... :c  Eh, whatever, not a major point.

Actually, as much as my Shepard scorns Ashley for her stupidity and disrespect, I as player find that she shows a lot more character in her short cameo than Tali and Garrus together.

Even though Ashley and Kaidan have pretty much the SAME DAMN DIALOGUE?  That's not character development, that's filler, and a massive letdown after all the potential they showed in ME1.  And really, considering your penchant for skipping content (not recruiting Wrex or Grunt), every single character for you might as well be a short cameo.  Not that there's anything wrong with being a gaming minimalist--I understand skipping over the uninteresting stuff for the sake of the meaty bits--but seriously, dude, if you didn't think Tali and Garrus showed any character, I think you missed something.  I saw Garrus be goofy, determined, defeated, enraged, nervous, confident, serious, suspicious, trusting...  The guy has a wider range of emotions than some people I know in real life.  Same goes for Tali: she was distraught, confused, fangirlish, et cetera.  Maybe a lot of this has to do with character favoritism, but there was a point where even Grunt surprised me with his philosophical musings.  And Grunt is a brick that talks.

Go back.  Play through again.  Recruit everyone and don't skip anything.  There's a reason that so many people are screaming for these guys to come back.

Also, holy crap, do I sound creepily obsessive or what?  I think I should take a break from this Mass Effect business...

What happened to the "strong points", BTW?

I'm not going to baby-step you through my posts anymore.  Go back and read them.  Refer to the Star Wars analogy about replacing characters or something.

Am I going to be finally shown how investing a fully fledged squadmate's worth of time, money, manpower and disk space into a ME2 expendable can possibly be more lucrative for BioWare than investing the same amount of resources into a brand new squadmate that can be used as in a relevant ME3 plot device?

Short answer: Tali thread.

Long answer: Look at all the characters you didn't have to recruit.  Look at all the parts in ME1/2 that you could simply skip over.  That's a helluva lot of resources and disk space spent on stuff that a lot of players (yourself included) won't even touch.  What was the point to someone like Thane?  Samara?  Zaeed and Kasumi?  They sure as hell didn't advance the plot.  Now go back to ME1.  There wasn't a point to Kaidan, either, but there he is.  Wrex and Garrus can be skipped entirely.  There's no point to Ashley once you're off Eden Prime.  You don't need Tali once she's given you the evidence against Saren.  And why keep Liara around after she's located Ilos for you?

But Bioware put them in, anyway.  They spent months designing, writing, voicing, and programming each of those characters.  And some of them serve no purpose other than to be there and look cool.  In fact, hardly anyone in ME2 had any plot-relevant purpose at all.  Miranda brought you back to life, Mordin scienced up your armor to make it invisible to the swarms, and that's pretty much it.  Even then, why the hell should they be squadmates?  Why put so many resources into something that would be SO much cheaper as an NPC?

Because Bioware's all about the characters.  Without them, ME2 would just be another shooter and ME1 would have been Oblivion with lasers.

Your minimalist playthroughs prove exactly how much time, effort, and money Bioware is willing to put into skippable content.  With such great resources already spent on things some players may choose to ignore, why the hell wouldn't they do it again?

In short, Bioware will make the effort because they already have.  Sure, not everybody will be coming back, but there will be--and I gaurantee it--at least one returning ME2 squadmate.  If I'm wrong, you have full permission to mock me when the time comes.  And if you think that's unfair, make them available in the default save.  The only people who would be missing out are the ones that probably didn't want to see that character again, anyway.

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Most importantly, in an interview about the ME2 feedback "crazy stats" Casey Hudson admitted that the rate of imported characters turned out to be much higher than expected. Which means that while planning out ME2, BioWare simply didn't count on people's caring much about importing characters... Which means the ME2 squadmates were there just for ME2.

And now they know how much we actually care.  Therefore, they will adjust accordingly.

[Googlesaurus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

as long as the survivors of the "suicide mission" get their due cameos

Which may not mean anything beyond a warm fuzzy feeling in my tummy. 

Zulu_DFA wrote...

and the really "Big Choices" (Council's fate, C-Base status, Rachni queen fate, Geth Heretics' fate, etc.) are accounted for.

Which may or may not have meaningful consequences depending on if they are integrated into actual decision-making instead of being mentioned once and shooed off-stage. Most if not all carried-over decisions had a minimal impact on the game itself. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 21 novembre 2010 - 03:48 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Googlesaurus wrote...

If Bioware brings back past characters it will discourage potential new buyers who don't want to buy past titles for the optimum gaming experience. Cries of catering to the smaller, more dedicated community will arise. 

If Bioware excludes all potentially dead characters then it adds legitimate ammunition to the "consequences=null" argument. Bad press and cries of catering to the casual gamer will arise. 

No-win situation.

Actually, you could just have the default save assume that certain squadmates survive.  New players miss out on one squadmate, a couple plot-relevant allies, and a handful of cameos.  It'd be like not buying DLC: small enough impact that casual players won't have a very big reason to complain, large enough impact that those of us who've played the whole trilogy feel rewarded.  Everyone wins (except the people that nerfed their squad, but most of them did it on purpose, anyway)!

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

This, I think....is something they MIGHT actually do...



What if they have one or two "slots" for old squadmates that are determined on a "priorities chart" similar to how they figure out stuff in the suicide mission. Loyalty, Romance, and maybe a decision you made during their mission could be factors in whether they are picked for an "active squad" role in me2, perhaps with a heirarchical and ranked chart as well. Like Miranda and Garrus might be ranked high, but if you romanced Jack and convinced her to not be a psychopathic killer she might be able to outrank them and be elevated beyond "cameo role". That would be really interesting potentially....

[AdmiralCheez]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I've read the comics and the books. They keep building up Aria's character.
Besides, Wrex & Liara were both playable before they were supporting characters. Aria hasn't had that opportunity yet.

We've had the chance to play an Asari Maiden (Liara), an Asari Matron (Samara), and now possibly an Asari Matriarch(Aria). She's also now working for Cerberus / The Illusive Man (Books). It would also make a Wrex & Aria meeting possible(Provided she is Aleena as speculated)

As for Anderson, he seems to be getting more and more fed up with the Citadel & The Alliance. I don't see why he wouldn't say 'screw it' and jump in on the chance to fight. And like Aria, his skills and background keep getting bolstered in the books and comics.

Tali maybe young, but that hasn't stopped her from A) Saving the Citadel,  Running her own mission, C) Diving into the middle of Geth territory (Leading her own squad), and D) Throwing herself into the Omega-4 Relay. Young she maybe, but the lady has more experience and knowledge than most other Quarians so far. She's a protege. Besides, ME3's timeline will probably start two years after ME2. That's plenty of time to lead the fleet.

Okay, I'll give you Tali.  But character buildup doesn't mean they're going to be squadmates.  They're devoting a whole comic series to TIM, but he's not going to be a squaddie, now, does it?  The books are largely a medium to further expand upon characters that were too restricted in their in-game roles to really explore.  They have a powerful position in the story, a position that would be weakened if they dropped everything and hopped on the Normandy.

I could be wrong, of course.

[AdmiralCheez]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

This, I think....is something they MIGHT actually do...

What if they have one or two "slots" for old squadmates that are determined on a "priorities chart" similar to how they figure out stuff in the suicide mission. Loyalty, Romance, and maybe a decision you made during their mission could be factors in whether they are picked for an "active squad" role in me2, perhaps with a heirarchical and ranked chart as well. Like Miranda and Garrus might be ranked high, but if you romanced Jack and convinced her to not be a psychopathic killer she might be able to outrank them and be elevated beyond "cameo role". That would be really interesting potentially....

That'd be hell to program, but really awesome if they pulled it off.  I also thought of a lame yet warm and fuzzy way of getting EVERYONE back: Liara works her Shadow Broker magic and locates all surviving squadmates so they can join you on your final mission.  Super-duper corny, but image the OMFG IT'S WREX AND LEGION NOWAI moment.  So yeah, you'd get the whole team back, but only for like an hour of gameplay.

I know, dumbest idea ever, but less lame than bringing Shepard back from the dead to fight a giant terminator fetus, I should say.

[Elite Midget]

Too much effort for too little gain. As nice that that sounds it isn't pluasible since some characters will be dead by ME3 anyway such as Thane. Better to use new Characters and Characters that 'have' to survive up to ME3 such as VS.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Even though Ashley and Kaidan have pretty much the SAME DAMN DIALOGUE? 

Comes with being the VS. As long as you don't metagame it, it's fine. I do think that Kaidan should be more natural in that situation, but I stuck with Ashley.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I'm not going to baby-step you through my posts anymore.

Your choice. Personally I hate long posts, so in a lengthy discussion I cut things down to what I think deserves answering, if the opponent doesn't do it.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Short answer: Tali thread.

Like I said: isn't Tali worth a few extra pesos?

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Long answer: Look at all the characters you didn't have to recruit.  Look at all the parts in ME1/2 that you could simply skip over. 

It's one thing to make content skippable, and another to make it unavailable. It's one thing to make a dozen little thingies unavailable and another to make a huge piece of content called "a more interactive squadmate" missing.

BTW, I'd never say it's impossible to make 20 squadmates. Only they'd have all about as much dialogue as Garrus sans romance and loyalty mission... Or less.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Because Bioware's all about the characters.  Without them, ME2 would just be another shooter and ME1 would have been Oblivion with lasers.

1. ME2 is over. ME2 squadmates' time is up.
2. As BioWare is all about the characters, they are going to just cook a few new ones according to the requirements of the ME3 plot, which won't to be "character driven" if all the questions, mysteries, and "Chekhov's guns" are to be resolved in some other manner than reading unvoiced consoles.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Sure, not everybody will be coming back, but there will be--and I gaurantee it--at least one returning ME2 squadmate.

Well, if you want an advice who to bet on, try Legion. He is the most popular ME2 squadmate, and he is a robot. A good futuristic squad needs a robot. But I would't bet anyway, if I were you.

[Googlesaurus]

Seriously, Legion is the most popular ME2 squadmate?

CELEBRATIONS ENSUE

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:17 .

[KingDan97]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Most importantly, in an interview about the ME2 feedback "crazy stats" Casey Hudson admitted that the rate of imported characters turned out to be much higher than expected. Which means that while planning out ME2, BioWare simply didn't count on people's caring much about importing characters... Which means the ME2 squadmates were there just for ME2.

Since when were we running on the assumption that the Mass Effect series was completely planned from the outset? The higher then expected importing is imo a much larger reason to being back old squaddies. Those numbers were being developed from the second ME2 saw it's first user. Meaning that when Bioware was deciding exactly what they would be transferring and how in regards to the import system it would work they were seeing that "Hey, a lot of people are importing their game, they'll be our major user base for ME3!"

Oh right, and what of the people who won't be importing a ME1>ME2>ME3 file, what about those who had only played ME2 and will be wondering "Wait, that blue chick from the game I didn't play is back but I don't get all of my guys?" They'll feel royally screwed and all because Bioware predicted, against all odds, that a majority of their players in the final installment of a single console generation game that no intelligent Gamestop employee would recommend to a first time player would be new consumers.

This is something I've stated before, and honestly, this is my last time chiming in on the matter. Bioware is not punishing those who did not play the previous games by giving me back my old squaddies, they're giving me a bonus. They'd need to make 4 new squaddies if they want to give a fair balance to new players because, as you mentioned, Liara/VS can't die. Considering that ME1 had only 3 squadmates that actually progressed the story in any significant way(Tali/Liara/Garrus) so ME3 will need that many if you want the same level of story.

If you hop into a movie trilogy or start a book series 2/3 of the way through should you be expected to get the same satisfaction out of it as someone who was paying attention from the start and know the characters. Why is that different from games? "Each game was a self contained story" is the common battle cry I hear to combat this but each Harry Potter book could easily be considered a self contained unit, the same could be said of Star Wars or Lord of the Rings or and number of different franchises. So, why the hell should games be any different? Should someone who jumped in at Halo 3 have known who Cortana was or why the hell she was on that ship? No.