762 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

McBeath wrote...
Hmm, lots of people would have "perferred" Liara to be a squadmate in ME2, not just in LoTSB. They wanted her on the disc, not as DLC accessable only for a single mission. Unsound move? Most definately... but one that happened regardless.

First, the poll deals with a design concept, not with plot line preferences. Don't mix general with particular.

Secondly, Casey Hudson explained that much: Liara and VS were withheld for the lenght of ME2 to make sure they couldn't contract the HIV called the "suicide mission", and would be able to make it into ME3 as plot-relevant characters, possibly squadmates. Which is a further indication that all the ME2 squadmates are not going to make it other than cameos, possibly with placeholders.

Also, how do you know what the preferances of gamers are? Do you go by those in this forum? How many copies of ME2 have been purchased compared to the number of registered people here(not to mention those that actually post what they want)? I for one have no idea, but am willing to guess they represent a small minority of the whole of Mass Effect 2 owners.

Come on, it's 92%. And there are lots of character fans there.

Honestly, the poll is tricky. Its trick is that it fails to invoke the alarm in people's heads: "Warning! The smaller the squad, the smaller the chance your favorite character makes into it!" So I'm actually surprised the figure is this high, given that it's on this site!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 novembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

McBeath wrote...


They expected ME2 to be certain things that it wasn't.  They had thier "truths", like people here do, about what it HAD to be.  No if's, and's or but's.  It was going to be THIS.  It wasn't, and they nerd-raged.  Whatever.

Well, it does give them +15% to damage threshold and their strength increased to 10 whenever health is 20% or lower.

[AdmiralCheez]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Comes with being the VS. As long as you don't metagame it, it's fine. I do think that Kaidan should be more natural in that situation, but I stuck with Ashley.

For Lord and Master of Minimal but Meaningful Content, that's not a very satisfying response.  Especially after I demonstrated how much certain characters were developed.  Also, one could also call your intentional skipping of content and killing of certain characters "metagaming" as well, since you are obviously toying with how you know the game operates.

Your choice. Personally I hate long posts, so in a lengthy discussion I cut things down to what I think deserves answering, if the opponent doesn't do it.

You missed the part where I told you to look back at the Star Wars analogy.  I directed you to a point I previously made, and you ignore it.  Again, not a very satisfying response.

And you make pretty damn long posts yourself, good sir.

Like I said: isn't Tali worth a few extra pesos?

If BW wants to go that route, fine, but that is pretty damn cheap of them.

It's one thing to make content skippable, and another to make it unavailable. It's one thing to make a dozen little thingies unavailable and another to make a huge piece of content called "a more interactive squadmate" missing.

People who don't have Xbox Live or a working internet connection have a helluva lot of content unavailable to them.  PS3 owners are missing out on the whole first chapter of the trilogy, with a hokey little comic to compensate for it.

One damn squadmate isn't too much to ask.  And again, said squadmate could very well be available in the default save.  Thus, the only people missing out would be people that killed them off, intentionally for the most part.  You, for example.  You gonna care that you miss out on a couple squadmates when you usually skip half of them, anyway?

Not to mention that people with the default save will always be stuck with the VS of the opposite gender.  What if they wanted a ManShep with Kaidan in one playthrough?  Nope, sorry, gotta go back and play ME1, tough noogies, kid.  Don't have ME1?  Well, damn, better go out and buy it.  A minor issue, I know, but you seem be assuming that the VS will be a squadmate.  You will be restricted to the squadmate of the opposite gender if you didn't play ME1, so there you have it, a whole missing squadmate in roughly half of all new playthoughs.  Talk about wasted resources!  Obviously, neither will return because there are just too many variables!

BTW, I'd never say it's impossible to make 20 squadmates. Only they'd have all about as much dialogue as Garrus sans romance and loyalty mission... Or less.

You and I both know that that's a horrible idea and has nothing to do with the points either one of are making.

1. ME2 is over. ME2 squadmates' time is up.

Liara's the Shadow Broker now.  Her time is up.  Ashley and Kaidan already had their chance, too.  And since, you know, either one can die they'll probably just be cameos, anyway.  Why bother programming Kaidan when less than half the players will even run into him?

2. As BioWare is all about the characters, they are going to just cook a few new ones according to the requirements of the ME3 plot, which won't to be "character driven" if all the questions, mysteries, and "Chekhov's guns" are to be resolved in some other manner than reading unvoiced consoles.

Where was the part where I said ME3 shouldn't be plot driven and have new characters?  How does this support your point, anyway?  "Oh, sweet mother of God!  Zaeed's still a squadmate!  There is no chance in hell we can move the plot forward!"  Pardon me for rolling my eyes.

HEY ZULU!  YOU STILL HAVE A BIT OF WORK TO DO!

Also, MacBeath made a helluva lot of good points that you completely ignored.  What you are doing is completely ignoring the parts where you get your ass kicked.  That is incredibly dishonest.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 21 novembre 2010 - 09:18 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Honestly, the poll is tricky. Its trick is that it fails to invoke the alarm in people's heads: "Warning! The smaller the squad, the smaller the chance your favorite character makes into it!" So I'm actually surprised the figure is this high, given that it's on this site!

But you see, Zulu, your poll has nothing to do with WHO's returning.  It's dirty salesmanship, like saying "Would you rather get to work very quickly or be stuck in traffic?"  Most people would respond "Get to work quickly."  So you proceed to strap a rocket to their backs and light it.  They go whizzing through the air at supersonic speeds and hit their office building.  The rocket explodes and whatever is left of them is blown to smoldering bits.

And you're like, "Hey!  You said you wanted to get to work faster!"

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

"Oh, sweet mother of God! Zaeed's still a squadmate! There is no chance in hell we can move the plot forward!" Pardon me for rolling my eyes.

A game about Zaeed doesn't need a plot. That was the saving grace of ME2. It's also the hidden meaning of my signature...



The problem is, that all people think the same about their favorite characters... erroneously, of course. So even though I wouldn't mind having Zaeed as a squadmate in ME3, I am ready to give up on that in favor of ME3 being about the plot for a change and not about everyone's favorite characters. So pardon for rolling your eyes is not granted.

[AdmiralCheez]

Listen, Zulu. I am getting really frustrated that every time I point out a flaw in your logic, you ignore it. I admit my own mistakes, I have enough humility to admit it when I agree with you. You do not. It's a pain in the ass.



Mass Effect 3 does not have to be about the characters. However, focus on the plot does not mean that certain characters must be excluded. You are presenting a false dichotomy. And that was the point of my post: the presence or absence of Character X does not mean that the plot cannot move forward. That character can simply fill a support role. After all, even in Mass Effect 1, your squadmates did not play a very active role in the plot. The plot is driven by the actions of the villain and the decisions of the hero, like any other good guys vs. bad guys story.



Now either you take the time to consider and respond to each of my rebuttals, or you drop the subject. You obviously have enough intelligence to do so. I am continuing this debate under the assumption that you started this thread for a reason other than trolling.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

 flaw in your logic,

There is no "my" logic. There is only "the" logic. Or there isn't.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

character can simply fill a support role.

And I repeat for the 15,493rd time: a new characther will fill such a role better than an old one. Proof: Calibrations.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
you started this thread for a reason other than trolling.

What if I didn't? Maybe we should try this thread instead? It even had the "official" status for a while...

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

McBeath wrote...
What I find comical is the number of fans who were outraged by ME2 when it was released.  It was an unforgivable sin that Bioware did what they did so that they could market the game to more people.  They forget that Bioware is a business. 

Those fans couldn't believe that ME2 featured a "dumbed down" inventory system, simpler skill tree or ammo for our guns.  Bioware did those things, and more, to market the game.

I thought they did it to make the game better.  And IMHO it did.  You call it dumbed down/simpler, I call it streamlined.

And I don't play shooters, never had. 

[AdmiralCheez]

There is no "my" logic. There is only "the" logic. Or there isn't.

But there are such things as faulty logic, poor arguments, false dichotomies, and straw men.  All of which you have used.  You have also made a lot of points that have nothing to do with your argument and do not support it in any way, like the one below.

And I repeat for the 15,493rd time: a new characther will fill such a role better than an old one. Proof: Calibrations.

That was a failure on Bioware's part to include more dialogue.  They could have easily programmed additional conversations, perhaps more about Garrus's squad, relationship with his family, et cetera.  He could have expressed more concern over Cerberus.  He could have made a comment about Joker and Chakwas.  Or he could have been like Mordin, where he had more reasons to be busy than screwing around with the main guns.

Also, note that Joker and Chakwas were also returning characters.  This time around, they had a lot more to say and pulled off their support roles a lot better than they did in the first one.  Now, if what you say is true, wouldn't it have been better to have a new pilot?  A new doctor?

What if I didn't? Maybe we should try this thread instead? It even had the "official" status for a while..

Yes, but that official status was removed, and the point has been argued against just as strongly as it has been presented.  Furthermore, you continue to ignore the fact that you are mercilessly quotemining me and refusing to address previous arguments.  You ignore everything that doesn't suit your purposes.

EDIT: I also agree with HappyHappyJoyJoy, but that has little to do with the current topic.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
That was a failure on Bioware's part to include more dialogue.

It was limitations. Budget, deadlines, stuff like that.

If there was "a failure" it was the initial decision to make a "character driven" game with 12 characters (while at the same time tasking the writers to mask the ammo retcon and "amp up" things in general).

AdmiralCheez wrote...
wouldn't it have been better to have a new pilot? A new doctor?

Certainly. If only to uphold the Big Universe concept. But Joker & Chakwas were OK... Mainly because they were static characters. Unlike Tali and Garrus, who were failures in terms of character continuity (see above why).

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Furthermore, you continue to ignore the fact that you are mercilessly quotemining me and refusing to address previous arguments. You ignore everything that doesn't suit your purposes.

If you want to ask me a specific question, do so one at a time. This goes also to exposing my alleged failures in logic. Also understand that I may be reluctant to respond to the same argument multiple times, even if it comes each time from a new person. That's why I insist on the one question at a time mode. This way I will only have to either answer it or ignore it.

So far I haven't seen a single valid argument for why the ME2 squadmates would be better suited for ME3, than new faces, aside from personal preference.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:54 .

[GracefulChicken]

Even though alot of his points are on shaky ground, I agree with Zulu. I personally think ME3 is going to include 2 or 3 old squaddies (dont know who, and dont care enough to speculate), and the rest will be new characters (atleast ones we havent had in squad yet, we might recognize them, or they might be totally new to us). The only reason I cite for that is plot relevance, and frankly, thats the only reason I need to think that way. Sure, old crew could be worked into the plot somehow, but it would move it along quicker and smoother with new people. I'd say cameos for old crew, maybe two return to our squad. Thats it. And honestly, I'd like it better that way anyways. The old squad was fun, me1 and me2 included, but Bioware excels at creating depth in their characters so I actually want to see and learn about totally new people. It wouldnt be as much fun to just learn more about people we know, the better option (imo) is learning about totally new people that can move the me3 plot along quickly as well as bringing their own new personality to the table. It would allow me3 to fill in gaps about what we already know and have a smooth plot where ex-squad mates arent just squeezed in for the sake of fan service (like Tali was in me2 )

[AdmiralCheez]

It was limitations. Budget, deadlines, stuff like that.

If there was "a failure" it was the initial decision to make a "character driven" game with 12 characters (while at the same time tasking the writers to mask the ammo retcon and "amp up" things in general).

Okay, limitations.  I get that.   I suppose I should be glad that the conversations I DID have with Garrus were a lot more entertaining and meaningful than the ones I had with, say, Grunt.  However, you have just made it abundantly clear that you are in the "ME1 is so much better" camp.  This explains why you insist ME1 characters return to your squad while ME2 ones are left by the wayside, other than "suicide AIDS."  Really, your agruments are all personal opinon, too.

As a side note, I liked ME1 and 2 equally.  I am not arguing based on my opinion, as I am honestly okay with no old squadmates returning so long as it is done well.  I am simply trying to point out that your position can be refuted and that a lot of your arguments are, well, stupid.

Certainly. If only to uphold the Big Universe concept. But Joker & Chakwas were OK... Mainly because they were static characters. Unlike Tali and Garrus, who were failures in terms of character continuity (see above why).

Ah, so you'd prefer every game to have an entirely new cast.  In that case, you can kiss continuity goodbye.  Returning characters are essential to tie each part of the story together.  If no squadmates from ME2 return, then what was the bloody point of playing ME2, anyway?  And if you are going to fuss about "character continuity," please re-examine Tali and Garrus: Tali was a teenager in ME1, with little experience outside the flotilla but capable of being self-reliant.  In ME2, she has greatly matured.  The events of ME1 have changed her, as has the two years in which Shepard was absent.  Garrus makes sense, too, considering all the crap that took place between ME1 and 2. You can complain that he's too renegade if you tried to paragon him, but note that he TRIED to do as you suggested, but felt it was worthless.  Also, his mentor died.  You think that wouldn't affect him?

In my opinion, the biggest continuity fails were with Liara and the Virmire Survivor, and even those can be explained.

People change as time passes.  There is a difference between "static" and "continuity," as there is a difference between "development" and "continuity fail."  The Harry Potter in Sorcerer's Stone is a lot different from the Harry Potter in Deathly Hallows.  The Luke Skywalker in A New Hope is not the same Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.

In fact, the WORST blow to continuity would be to trash the old cast.  Imagine Return of the Jedi without Han, Leia, C-3PO, Chewie, and R2.  Although these characters weren't "necessary" to the plot, they were part of the team that got Luke to where he was.  If we only included characters "necessary" to the plot, all stories would include only the hero and villain, give or take a few MacGuffins.

If you won't to ask me a specific question, do so one at a time. This goes also to exposing my alleged failures in logic. Also understand that I may be reluctant to respond to the same argument multiple times, even if it comes each time from a new person. That's why I insist on the one question at a time mode. This way I will only have to either answer it or ignore it.

Really?  I have been making an effort to respond to every single question you pose and point you make.  I believe you should make a similar effort.  All you have to do is take some bloody time to read.  I suggest breaking my comments into seperate paragraphs and addressing each independently.

As for your flaws in logic or points where I have provided evidence to the contrary, allow me to outline them:

--Bioware will not waste resources on things some players will miss out on: FALSE.  There are many people who do not have access to DLC.  Also, a great deal of work went into content that is either deeply barried or easily skipped.  Furthermore, while the bonuses included in an import save seem small, they greatly add up--up to an hour of additional dialogue, more opportunities to gain experience, and a significantly larger cast.

--Old characters cannot advance the plot as well as new characters: FALSE.  Just because Character X did something previously does not mean that he can't do something else later.  Hermione was still helping out Harry in Deathly Hallows, even though she had been present in six previous books.  A new character would require additional time devoted to them to introduce them and get to know them personally--in other words, fashion show contestant.  Characters that are exclusively MacGuffins makes for a boring story, as supporting roles are equally important and add flavor.

--My poll shows that people would rather have new characters: FALSE.  All your poll shows is that people would prefer a small cast they can connect with rather than a large cast of shallow characters.  Remember what I said about riding a rocket to work?

--Including old team members, especially ones that can die, would be unfair to new players: TRUE, BUT some of these characters could be present in the default save.  That way, people who saved the squad won't get more than two additional squadmates than new guys, and people who killed their squad would only get two less.  And hell, it could be just ONE squadmate.  This is a large reward for old players, but not an incredibly significant loss of content for people who just picked it up.

--Including some old squadmates, but not others, would be unfair to the people who liked the squadmates not included: TRUE, BUT it's already happened with Wrex, Liara, Kaidan, and Ashley.  Furthermore, it would perfectly acceptable if non-returning squadmates were treated in a manner similar to Wrex: a warm and fuzzy reunion, significant dialogue, and a solid reason as to why he can't rejoin your team.  Even MORE unfair than the above, however, is including squadmates from ME1 but NOT ME2, thus showing favoritism to people who played ME1.

--BTW, I never said we couldn't have a cast of 20 shallow characters: STRAW MAN.  That is not the position I'm arguing.

--We can either have a large cast of all old characters or a small cast of all new characters: FALSE DICHOTOMY.  It is possible to have a large cast of all new characters, a small cast of all new characters, or a mix.

I can go back and pick out more, if you want.  I just need to go back and sift through my posts.

So far I haven't seen a single valid argument for why the ME2 squadmates would be better suited for ME3, than new faces, other than personal preference.

Then you are either not paying attention or ignoring the bulk of my arguments.  Please see above.

[AdmiralCheez]

GracefulChicken wrote...

Even though alot of his points are on shaky ground, I agree with Zulu. I personally think ME3 is going to include 2 or 3 old squaddies (dont know who, and dont care enough to speculate), and the rest will be new characters (atleast ones we havent had in squad yet, we might recognize them, or they might be totally new to us). The only reason I cite for that is plot relevance, and frankly, thats the only reason I need to think that way. Sure, old crew could be worked into the plot somehow, but it would move it along quicker and smoother with new people. I'd say cameos for old crew, maybe two return to our squad. Thats it. And honestly, I'd like it better that way anyways. The old squad was fun, me1 and me2 included, but Bioware excels at creating depth in their characters so I actually want to see and learn about totally new people. It wouldnt be as much fun to just learn more about people we know, the better option (imo) is learning about totally new people that can move the me3 plot along quickly as well as bringing their own new personality to the table. It would allow me3 to fill in gaps about what we already know and have a smooth plot where ex-squad mates arent just squeezed in for the sake of fan service (like Tali was in me2 )

Zulu is arguing that no old squadmates should return.  I agree with you that we should get a mix of both old and new characters, as I look forward to meeting new faces.  Bioware does a wonderful job with creating new characters, and not getting any mew squadmates would be just as stupid as leaving the old ones out.

Personally, I believe that the plot will not lose speed at all so long as the villain is active.  The problem with ME2 is that the Collectors only showed up a couple times, and even then did a lousy job of seeming like a legitimate threat until the very end.  In ME1, Saren was causing a lot more trouble, and defeating him involved more than rounding up a team and fighting a boss.  The trick is to keep the focus on the bad guys.  You can have as many characters as you want so long as you don't waste too much time pissing around with their daddy issues (not that the loyalty quests weren't a blast, but now that we've used that mechanic we don't need to do it again).

Of course, I am sure everyone prefers a smaller, more developed support cast.  Anything more than twelve squadmates would be too much, and even that seemed a little overboard  I think something between eight and ten would be perfect: six is too small to include both new and old characters, but eight or ten isn't so big that it's ridiculous.  In fact, eight would be perfect: four old and four new (or two old and six new, etc.) with the last two slots reserved for either DLC or a teammate that is an option for those who saved them in the suicide mission.  Someone who didn't save the old team would get a team of six, which is perfectly fair since it's still balanced, assuming the two old characters are from ME1 (Liara?  Virmire Survivor?  Who knows?  Even their return is questionable) or there are no old characters in their squad at all.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 21 novembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[Elite Midget]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I just ask myself; who in their right mind would buy a BioWare game with a big fat THREE next to its name without having played the previous title(s)?

It's almost comical, if you ask me.

The same people who bought ME2 without ever playing ME1... Or the same people that bought Devil May Cry 3 but never even knew about the series. Than are those who bought Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI as their first game into that series.

[AdmiralCheez]

Elite's got a point: video games have a lot more leeway continuity-wise than movies and books. However, one can include old characters without bogging down the story or confusing new players. For example, StarCraft 2 came out over ten years after the original, so a lot of people would have picked it up without ever playing the first one. But StarCraft 2 still had Raynor, Kerrigan, Zeratul, and Mengsk. There was enough backstory provided so new players knew who they were, but not so much that veterans like me weren't all "OKAY I KNOW WHO JIM RAYNOR IS I PLAYED THE FIRST ONE JESUS CHRIST!"

[Elite Midget]

Zulu is correct though. No Squad Mates, in ME2, will return in your Squad for ME3. If that was the case than why did Bioware specifically 'remove' Ashley/Kaiden and Liara from the ME2 Squad? I'll tell you why. The reason they did that was that they wanted VS and Liara to survive the events of ME2 so that they can be used in ME3. It's that simple. While characters like Wrex, who could die in ME1, was regulated to a 'VERY' short cameo.



You think punishing users, gameplay wise, is 'right'? I don't believe it is. DLC Squad mates are okay in my eyes. But to say that it's 'okay' that certian Shepards getting less max Squad mates on disc(I support DLC Characters later)? That makes the game 'very' hard to balance since ME2 has shown that each Squad Member has 'unique' abilities. How would it be fair if an imported Shepard got to have a character with Reave and thus their Shepard can learn Reave compared to an import that lost that character thus they can 'never' get Reave in ME3? Besides, the 'old' Squadmembers can be VS and Liara since they 'HAVE' to survive up to ME3.



As for the '8'.... I see it like this.



6-7 New Squad Members(If Liara doesn't want to leave SB status) + VS = 8.



All ME2 Squad Members = Either dead by ME3, Such as Thane dieing anyway due to illness, or short ME2 Wrex-Like cameos. I support this since it means Bioware can put their resources, time, and skills on making Squadmates that every save 'must' have in ME3. That and if they couldn't even treat Wrex with any deciency, and he was just 'one' Squadmember, what makes you think they'll do the same with 'many' characters that 'can' die in ME2 and not every ME2 import will have every character survive the events of ME2.



Personally I would rather just have 6 Squad Members so that 4-5 New characters can get more screentime alongside VS and maybe Liara(If she finds a way to join Shepard without neglecting their SB duties). At least they'll be better developed and more relevant to the plot than a majority of the ME2 Squad members.

[AdmiralCheez]

The problem is, Elite, that only including ME1 squadmates would show favoritism to players of ME1, among other things. If no ME2 squadmates can be recruited in ME3, then no ME1 squadmates should make a comeback, either. As for bonus powers, I wouldn't be surprised if we lost those entirely. After all, I had to give up my biotic bonus talent when I transferred my old Infiltrator.

I really want to know why people are neglecting the idea that a few old squadmates could have been assumed to survive on the default/quickstart save. Also, when it comes to balance, please note that Kasumi and Zaeed overlapped with other characters but were still unique. Nobody thought it was "unfair" that some people had Kasumi and Zaeed while others didn't. They were paid for. Same goes for a returning squadmate: some of us gave Bioware an extra 60 bucks. Call it a frequent shopper discount.

About character relevance: Tali is relevant because she was studying dark energy, something that COULD be key to defeating the Reapers. Garrus is Shepard's old and trusted friend, and the two of them have come to rely on each other. Mordin's tech outwitted the Seeker Swarms, and he has participated in researching indoctrination (see LotSB dossiers). Legion may be essential in gaining the support of the geth. Kasumi and her graybox are hoarding valuable Alliance intel. That's a lot of potentially relevant characters.

Please note that I am only calling for the return of just a few ME2 characters.  Somewhere between 2 and 4, possibly.  I know getting the whole damn squad back is ridiculous.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 22 novembre 2010 - 02:24 .

[Elite Midget]

It isn't favortism. The practical ones aren't suggesting the Wrex will return since he could have died and the way he was mistreated in ME2.

VS and Liara 'have' to survive.

No ME2 Squadmember 'has' to survive.

If they all were assumed to survive than we would end up with the same outrage that DA: A generated. As for Kasumi and Zaeed... They were DLC. Hell, I would even consider Ksaumi as one of the more OP characters to have in your Squad. However, neither of these characters were on the Disc and didn't effect the games balance, content-wise, since the game was balanced around all the characters that are on the disc.

I'm calling for no Zombies returning as squad members unless they return via DLC.

As for characters like Legion... They would do far better as NPCs who work towards gaining support from their respective race to aid against the Reapers. That and Legion has to work on building goodwill between the Geth and Citadel Races.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 22 novembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Yes, it IS favoritism because some people never got to CHOOSE who to leave behind on Virmire. Some never got to CHOOSE to romance those characters. And yet they are supposed to return anyway?



Ashley has a confirmed role in ME3. YET SHE CAN DIE. Kaidan has a confirmed role in ME3. YET HE CAN DIE. They don't "have" to survive. Also, one's a soldier and the other's a sentinel. HUGE difference in class, and could REALLY affect team balance.



BTW, to have a successful import, two people from ME2 "have" to survive as well.



Legion is better suited to be a negotiator? Liara's better suited to be the Shadow Broker.



Can you see your hypocrisy? The only way "no one's coming back" is if NO ONE is coming back, INCLUDING those that have "confirmed roles" and "couldn't die."



And again, you ignore the "default save" thing. I said that SOME would probably be assumed to survive, while YOUR import would match what YOU did. People just starting out would miss out on two squadmates at the most, which is what people with no internet connection or Xbox Live missed out on. They'd miss out on a few cameos, like Wrex and Shiala, but would still have a few, like Horizon. People who got everyone killed would be missing up to four squadmates, something that doesn't necessarily hamper them due to new characters, and something that could easily be corrected by redoing the suicide mission.



A third of the old squad was recruitable in ME2. Therefore, it is fairly safe to assume that up to a third of ME2's squad will be back on the Normandy for ME3.

[Elite Midget]

Ashley and Kaiden are both refered to as VS. One of them 'has' to survive the events of ME1+Me2. Shareing practically the same dailouge and role, as an Alliance member, makes it all that either. No matter what you you do ne of them 'has' to live on as the VS. It isn't favortism.

Also, how is it favortism since you can't choose who to leave behind? If you play ME1 you can choose which of the humans die. The only sad thing is that the aliens couldn't be chosen. The reason they couldn't is that Tali and Garrus were meant to appear as killable Squadmember since ME2, Liara was ment to take a much bigger role in the ME Universe, and Wrex already had his dieing moment.

What don't you understand when I saw VS? It means just that, the one who survived the events of Virimire. If you make a Default Male than that means that Ashley lives for ME3. Default Female than that means that Kaiden lives for ME3. It isn't that hard to understand. Every save 'must' have a VS.

A successful port can be 'any' two random ME2 Squad members. That's why it would be a waste of resources to try and balance the ME3 squad based on those that imported. Especially if a Shepard from ME2 had only DLC characters and characters like Thane survive. Far easier for Bioware to focus on Squad Members that every save must use than wasteing time, resources, and manpower on trying to breath life into Zombie ME2 Squadmembers for ME3. The best for ME2 Zombies would be cameo's.

Liara has no chance of dieing. That's why Liara may very well rejoin the Squad since she was removed for ME2 so that she lives in ME3. I personally would rather her remain in the SB role and provide help to Shepard outside of just being a field biotic commando.

Legion can die in the suicide mission and he can also be sent to Cerberus. That's why if he survives it makes more sense to just make Legion an embassador since it covers all options without unbalancing the game or wasteing time, resources, or manpower.

How is it hypocrisy?

No, I don't support having anyone start with less Max Squad Members from just playing the game via the disc. Especially when I see every ME2 Squad member as a Wrex-like Zombie.

As for the ME1 members in ME2...

Tali and Garrus couldn't die in ME1. While every ME2 can die. I fully expect them getting the Wrex treatment.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 22 novembre 2010 - 03:20 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Ashley and Kaiden are both refered to as VS. One of them 'has' to survive the events of ME1+Me2. Shareing practically the same dailouge and role, as an Alliance member, makes it all that either. No matter what you you do ne of them 'has' to live on as the VS. It isn't favortism.

However, each one will still be programmed when both can die and only one can be experienced per playthrough.  Why waste resources on either one?  Hell, why waste resources on anything that some players will never experience?  Let's just make ME3 a linear shooter.  Obviously, it'd be the easiest to program, and it'd be fair because everyone would be playing the exact same game.

And it's still favoritism.  Why?  Because the VS didn't mean squat to people who played ME2 but missed ME1.  Those people had a different cast of characters they became attached to.  Do you seriously think the most they'll get for saving all twelve will be a dozen Wrex/Horizon-style cameos?  When ME1 players at least got Garrus and Tali back?  Really, what's wrong with bringing back one or two ME2 squaddies when the only people who wouldn't have them on their team are the ones who probably got them killed on purpose, anyway?

Also, how is it favortism since you can't choose who to leave behind? If you play ME1 you can choose which of the humans die. The only sad thing is that the aliens couldn't be chosen. The reason they couldn't is that Tali and Garrus were meant to appear as killable Squadmember since ME2, Liara was ment to take a much bigger role in the ME Universe, and Wrex already had his dieing moment.

People who only have ME2 can't choose who to leave behind.  It is impossible for them to get FemShep and Ashley in the same save.  They cannot romance the VS or Liara.

If Tali and Garrus just exist to "be killable," why include them at all?  Why gain their loyalty?  What's the point in making sure they survive the suicide mission if they'll never be back again?  People who have ME1 have the chance to make sure either Ashley or Kaidan will be back in ME3.  People who have ME2 don't get that chance.  The team they spent 20 hours building won't mean crap, while the team assembled in ME1 has at least two guaranteed returns?  The ME1 team was pretty damn easy to get together, too.  You could have everybody picked up and ready to go in under an hour.  You never had to gain their loyalty.  You never even had to talk to them.  And yet they have the luxury of a return just because they are easier to maintain?

There is no excuse for this other than lazy programming.

What don't you understand when I saw VS? It means just that, the one who survived the events of Virimire. If you make a Default Male than that means that Ashley lives for ME3. Default Female than that means that Kaiden lives for ME3. It isn't that hard to understand. Every save 'must' have a VS.

And every ME2 save "must" have at least two surviving squadmates.  Note that the default folks don't get to pick who their VS is.  See above.

A successful port can be 'any' two random ME2 Squad members. That's why it would be a waste of resources to try and balance the ME3 squad based on those that imported. Especially if a Shepard from ME2 had only DLC characters and characters like Thane survive. Far easier for Bioware to focus on Squad Members that every save must use than wasteing time, resources, and manpower on trying to breath life into Zombie ME2 Squadmembers for ME3. The best for ME2 Zombies would be cameo's.

Your point would be valid if most people only had two surviving squadmates.  The fact is that the overwhelming majority have at least one save where everyone survives.  People who are down to just two squadmates probably did that on purpose.  Bioware has the data, they KNOW that most people attempted to get everyone out alive.  Therefore, bringing in ME2 folks would mean that only the people who nuked their squad would miss out.  That's not "Zombie Squadmembers," that's "I really hate Grunt so I'm getting him killed."

Liara has no chance of dieing. That's why Liara may very well rejoin the Squad since she was removed for ME2 so that she lives in ME3. I personally would rather her remain in the SB role and provide help to Shepard outside of just being a field biotic commando.

Or she could just stay the Shadow Broker.  Her new role makes it a lot less likely that she'll drop everything and hop on the Normandy.  100% survival rate does not mean that she'll be a squadmate.  After all, she and the VS weren't in ME2.

Legion can die in the suicide mission and he can also be sent to Cerberus. That's why if he survives it makes more sense to just make Legion an embassador since it covers all options without unbalancing the game or wasteing time, resources, or manpower.

It could also be argued that it makes more sense for the VS to stay with the Alliance, or for Garrus to have stayed with C-Sec, or for Tali to have stayed with the Migrant Fleet. It'd save a helluva lot of resources.  And really, if Legion can be just sent to Cerberus, why program him in the first place?  That's a whole squadmate that some people will never experience because they nuked him right away for credits.

How is it hypocrisy?

It's hypocrisy because you are insisting that Liara and the VS WILL be squadmates again athough the VS has two possible characters attached and Liara has a more important role than "biotic commando."  Meanwhile, you deny that any "killable" squadmates will be returning even though the same rules apply to them as do the VS: Ashley or Kaidan can die.  The ME2 squad can die.  The only difference is the numbers involved.

No, I don't support having anyone start with less Max Squad Members from just playing the game via the disc. Especially when I see every ME2 Squad member as a Wrex-like Zombie.

And I don't support a reduced squad just because a very small minority decided, "Hey, I hate everybody expect Mordin and Thane, so I'll kill everyone off except those two!"  You'd only be missing out because you killed off the characters you didn't feel like saving.  It's not a wasted effort if only 20% of players miss out.  I don't support DLC for old squadmates, either, because I am NOT going to pay extra money for a better save import.

[AdmiralCheez]

As for the ME1 members in ME2...

Tali and Garrus couldn't die in ME1. While every ME2 can die. I fully expect them getting the Wrex treatment.

Because every character in ME2 can die, they are all equal.  Squadmates in ME1 each had a different rate of survival, so they were given roles of different sizes.

And really, a Wrex-style cameo wouldn't be horrible.  I liked the new Wrex.  But NOT including ANYONE from ME2 would be letting a lot of people down.  50% of people who played ME2 imported a save.  That number will probably be about the same for ME3.  If you were a developer, would you willingy betray half of your fanbase?

[Elite Midget]

I can do that too. ME2 Squad members don't mean squat to ME3 gamers.



You're missing the point. A VS 'has' to survive. There's no ifs, ands, or buts. Every save will get a VS whether default or import. The fact that Ashley and Kaiden share the majority of the same dialouge makes it very doable. Them being the representative of the Alliance and both regarded as Warheroes also helps as well. They're interchangeable because Bioware dictated it. I see no hypocriticism here.



Whats wrong with bringing them back? Maybe it's because they're dead in a lot of saves? Them having a chance of not surviving ME2 also backs that Bioware never intended them to return outside of Cameo's ala Wrex.



If they really want a Femshep and Ashley than they can play ME1 and chose a different VS. Besides, with the comic for the PS3... It'll be even easier to decide that outcome.



Why include them? So they can appear in ME3 as doing something far greater than 'just being Shepards Squadie'. Look at Wrex, he's practically uniteing all of the Krogan. Expect to see ME2 characters, who you gained the loyalty of and thy survived, to be doing 'their part' to fight the Reapers without just being another gun under Shepard.



Besides, when ME1 finished I totally thought that we would be getting the ME1 Squad for ME2. Bioware surprised me when they removed VS and Liara, regulated Wrex to a short cameo, and squeezed in Tali and Garrus. Believe me, I know what you're feeling and the want that you desire for even just one ME2 squad member in ME3. However, Bioware sealed the ME2 Squadies fates when they decided to make them killable just like ol'Wrex.



Hell, we wouldn't even be having this debate if Bioware didn't decide to make them all killable. All we have to go by is how Bioware treated Wrex who doesn't have to survive ME1.



As for Liara and VS... Bioware could do that but than why did Bioware specifically keep VS and Liara away from the Suicide mission if they didn't plan to use them in ME3? I mean, Bioware even said that they wanted VS and Liara to be alive and kicking in all saves for ME3.



VS had a cameo in ME2 and so did Liara...



Bioware said that VS and Liara would return in ME3. I believe them untill they prove me wrong. After all, evey save will have VS and LIara will not every save will have all the same ME2 Squadies still alive. Blame Bioware not those that are simply stateing what they believe will occur from the way Bioware handled Wrex in ME2.



To get this clear and to the point... No ME2 Squad Member has a gaurentee that they'll survive and you can have any random 2 as the survivors. While Ashley/Kaiden are interchangeable and one 'has' to live on in every save as VS.

[AdmiralCheez]

[quote]I can do that too. ME2 Squad members don't mean squat to ME3 gamers.[/quote]

But ME1 characters were included in ME2, anyway, thowing a bone to players of ME1.  You are suggesting that players of ME1 get thrown a bone AGAIN, while ME2 folks get nothing.

[quote]You're missing the point. A VS 'has' to survive. There's no ifs, ands, or buts. Every save will get a VS whether default or import. The fact that Ashley and Kaiden share the majority of the same dialouge makes it very doable. Them being the representative of the Alliance and both regarded as Warheroes also helps as well. They're interchangeable because Bioware dictated it. I see no hypocriticism here.[/quote]

The same thing can be done for ME2 survivors: Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob could all serve roles as your advisor, for example.  Tali and Legion could both be your mechanic.  Grunt and Jack could both be your "rahr kill everything rahr!" types.  See what I mean?  Relatively similar dialogue, with a few unique conversations and tweaks, on a spot on the Normandy that isn't necessary but helpful.

You are assuming that Bioware will not seek to improve their current system.  You are assuming that, since they've found a crafty way to program both characters, they can't do the same for more.  It's more work, sure, but look at how much effort they put into ME2!

[quote]Whats wrong with bringing them back? Maybe it's because they're dead in a lot of saves? Them having a chance of not surviving ME2 also backs that Bioware never intended them to return outside of Cameo's ala Wrex.[/quote]

You don't know Bioware's intentions.  ME3 isn't out yet.  No game has ever had transferrable content like this before, with so many variables that could greatly affect the final outcome.  The saves in which characters have died greatly outnumber those in which they have not.

[quote]If they really want a Femshep and Ashley than they can play ME1 and chose a different VS. Besides, with the comic for the PS3... It'll be even easier to decide that outcome.[/quote]

Some people don't have ME1.  Also, if person X doesn't want character Y, they can just go back and get them killed.  Works both ways.

[quote]Why include them? So they can appear in ME3 as doing something far greater than 'just being Shepards Squadie'. Look at Wrex, he's practically uniteing all of the Krogan. Expect to see ME2 characters, who you gained the loyalty of and thy survived, to be doing 'their part' to fight the Reapers without just being another gun under Shepard.[/quote]

If they did, and they did it well, I would be very happy.  A lot of old teammates would be great for that sort of thing.  Mordin would be great off somewhere sciencing things up for you, especially when his old age catches up with him.

However, not every single character is going to fit into a role like that.  Where does Jack have to go, for example?  She functions better as a "gun under Shepard," because fighting the Collectors/Reapers has finally given a purpose greater than vengeance and self-preservation.  Besides, Shepard (if she's loyal/romanced) is the only person she can trust.  Of course, she could just take off...

Garrus is another one.  He gave up C-Sec, turned down being a Spectre, and seriously screwed himself over trying to play Batman.  The Shadow Broker's dossiers hint that he's got some family issues to work out, and that his "leadership potential" won't develop fully while under Shepard, but like Jack, is there really a better place for him?  Maybe he and Shepard split up to cover more ground or something, or maybe his mom dies and he takes off, but he's one of those folks that really belongs on the Normandy.

[quote]Besides, when ME1 finished I totally thought that we would be getting the ME1 Squad for ME2. Bioware surprised me when they removed VS and Liara, regulated Wrex to a short cameo, and squeezed in Tali and Garrus. Believe me, I know what you're feeling and the want that you desire for even just one ME2 squad member in ME3. However, Bioware sealed the ME2 Squadies fates when they decided to make them killable just like ol'Wrex. [/quote]

ME3 isn't out yet, so no one's fate is sealed unless they are already dead.  Like I said before, I really wanted Wrex back, too, but he's found a higher purpose.  If they can handle the rest of the cast as well as they handled Wrex, I won't complain.  But, again, the only thing stopping certain squadmates from returning is this whole "but they can DIE" thing.  Again, this sort of thing is without precedent, so why should we automatically assume the worst?

[quote]Hell, we wouldn't even be having this debate if Bioware didn't decide to make them all killable. All we have to go by is how Bioware treated Wrex who doesn't have to survive ME1.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.  And one character isn't really enough to judge how this is going to turn out.

[quote]As for Liara and VS... Bioware could do that but than why did Bioware specifically keep VS and Liara away from the Suicide mission if they didn't plan to use them in ME3? I mean, Bioware even said that they wanted VS and Liara to be alive and kicking in all saves for ME3.[/quote]

Sure, but they didn't have the statistics for ME2 yet.  They were playing it safe because they weren't sure what would happen with the suicide mission.  They had no idea how the alive/dead ratio would turn out, or how the fan base would react.  They held onto Liara and the VS just in case.

[quote]VS had a cameo in ME2 and so did Liara...[/quote]

Yes, and?  Until LotSB, I thought they were absolutely horrible cameos.  Wrex actually had the best one, and from what I hear he was thrown in at the last minute so they didn't ****** off the fans.

[quote]Bioware said that VS and Liara would return in ME3. I believe them untill they prove me wrong. After all, evey save will have VS and LIara will not every save will have all the same ME2 Squadies still alive. Blame Bioware not those that are simply stating what they believe will occur from the way Bioware handled Wrex in ME2.[/quote]

I have no doubt that they will be returning.  As to whether or not they are squadmates remains to be seen.  You are assuming that ME3's story is already set in stone and that they will not change it once they see the feedback they get from ME2.

[quote]To get this clear and to the point... No ME2 Squad Member has a gaurentee that they'll survive and you can have any random 2 as the survivors. While Ashley/Kaiden are interchangeable and one 'has' to live on in every save as VS.[/quote]

And my point is that the ME2 squad's less than 100% survival rate is not definiative proof, nor adequate reason, to boot them out as possible squaddies in ME3.

EDIT: Now look what you made me do!  Look at that bar in my signature!  That's not even a position I support!  Hot damn, all this debating has turned me into a squad-survival extremist! ;-P

Nah.  I just want to put at least one more voice in for the impossible dream.  Really, is expecting at least one ME2 squadmate return THAT unrealistic?

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 22 novembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[Count Viceroy]

I commend your efforts Cheez, but you can not have a reasonable talk never mind argue with zulu unless you agree with him.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:16 .