762 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Count Viceroy wrote...

I commend your efforts Cheez, but you can not have a reasonable talk never mind argue with zulu unless you agree with him.

Yeah, I kind of got that feeling... >_>

Well then, if anything, my arguments will make sense to some people and hopefully reach the Bioware devs somehow.  Also, this battle of attrition gives me something to do while studying.  Seriously, I have done nothing but grind for my psych exam all day; trolling the forums is about as much fun I can have at the moment.  ;-)

Seriously, though, I love debating.  Even over something as stupid as a video game. 8D

[Elite Midget]

Speaking of Zulu... He kinda faded out when I came in here. Strange. I usually end up agreeing with him on many points.

[AdmiralCheez]

I think I scared him off...



Anyway, I'll be back on tomorrow sometime. Perhaps then we can continue these shenanigans. It was fun, Elite! I really had to think about some of the points you made. Hope I didn't come across as TOO much of an ass.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
you have just made it abundantly clear that you are in the "ME1 is so much better" camp.
[/quote]
Never made a secret of it. Just look at my profile status.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
This explains why you insist ME1 characters return to your squad while ME2 ones are left by the wayside
[/quote]
No, I say Kaidan was the best squadmate of ME1, and he had to die on Virmire (for a story reason). Ashley I will appreciate in ME3 only for scoffing at her attitude and fraternization leanings, and maybe for venting her anti-Cerberus head. Of Liara I only care so much because she is the most important squadmate plotwise, but in ME1 I recruited her post-Virmire...

Of the ME2 squadmates I liked Zaeed, Mordin, Legion and maybe even Jack more than Kaidan, but Mordin & Jack kicked the bucket on the "suicide mission"... And I am kinda worried about those 5 cameos of my survivors: what if they are going to be undebuggably bugged like freaking Conrad?

You see, I care about the story and plot, not about particular characters. Characters are good only if they fit the in the story well. I don't need them as tomagotchi/dolls/pets/calibrators...


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...

Ah, so you'd prefer every game to have an entirely new cast.  In that case, you can kiss continuity goodbye.
[/quote]
Joker and Chakwas being picked by TIM actually does make some sense. Tali and Garrus, on the other hand... Well, maybe too... but he never lets on that he knew about Archangel's identity, or his ulterior motive in putting Tali on the list. However, after I had denied the Geth data to Tali in ME1, she is awfully trusting of my Shepard... My Shepard thinks Tali is an idiot, the real me thinks Tali is an immersion breaking piece of fan service. Kal'Reegar would make so much more sense as "the Quarian squadmate"! Tali could still be met at the Migrant Fleet, and even scrogged in some "clean room" there, if that's what her cultists needed. Garrus could make so much more sense in Bailey's place...


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
  Returning characters are essential to tie each part of the story together.
[/quote]
Maybe yes, maybe no. Who ever said that characters shouldn't return? As cameos? And preferably they should be run into in such places and ways, that don't make a galaxy of trillions look like a village of 200...


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
If no squadmates from ME2 return, then what was the bloody point of playing ME2, anyway?
[/quote]
1. Stopping the Collectors.
2. Working for Cerberus.
3. Replacing the Shadow Broker.
4. Fun.
5. "Fluent shooter gameplay" & "addictive planet scanning".


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
In fact, the WORST blow to continuity would be to trash the old cast.  Imagine Return of the Jedi without Han, Leia, C-3PO, Chewie, and R2.  Although these characters weren't "necessary" to the plot, they were part of the team that got Luke to where he was.[/quote] All those characters were:
1. Necessary for the plot, just like the space pandas.
2. Could not die in Empire Strikes Back.
3. Could not be pissed off by Luke in Empire Strikes Back.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
--Bioware will not waste resources on things some players will miss out on: FALSE.  There are many people who do not have access to DLC.[/quote]
DLC generates revenue on its own, so it's not a waste. I even say it myself, that ME2 squadmate may return full-time if BioWare thinks there will be a distinct pay-off for the resources invested in them. Including them in the Vanilla ME3, however, will create too much of a free lunch for the character fans, at the expense of everybody else.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
Also, a great deal of work went into content that is either deeply barried or easily skipped.  Furthermore, while the bonuses included in an import save seem small, they greatly add up--up to an hour of additional dialogue, more opportunities to gain experience, and a significantly larger cast.
[/quote]
Cameos will greatly add up to ME3 too. That's about all you can demand and hope for.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
--Old characters cannot advance the plot as well as new characters: FALSE.  Just because Character X did something previously does not mean that he can't do something else later.[/quote]
If a character kicked the bucket, he can't do anything.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
--My poll shows that people would rather have new characters: FALSE.  All your poll shows is that people would prefer a small cast they can connect with rather than a large cast of shallow characters. Remember what I said about riding a rocket to work?
[/quote] As long as the rocket doesn't explode, your wet pants are your own damn fault. If the jet packs become real and available just like cars, people will use them to fly to work. The poll isn't mine, BTW.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
--Including old team members, especially ones that can die, would be unfair to new players: TRUE, BUT some of these characters could be present in the default save.
[/quote]
Actually writers will have to make a lot of additional dialogue for Liara, to explain who she is and how she got to where she is to the new players. I'm not holding my breath for them to account for the possibility of not meeting Liara in ME2.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
That way, people who saved the squad won't get more than two additional squadmates than new guys, and people who killed their squad would only get two less.  And hell, it could be just ONE squadmate.  This is a large reward for old players, but not an incredibly significant loss of content for people who just picked it up.
[/quote]
The easiest way to ****** off all the little crowds of character fans is to include just the selected few in the ME3 squad. Even if they are Legion. Especially after BioWare's bragging about how they treat all the characters equally. (Don't get me started about Liara and VS, though. They are "more equal".)


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
--Including some old squadmates, but not others, would be unfair to the people who liked the squadmates not included: TRUE, BUT it's already happened with Wrex, Liara, Kaidan, and Ashley. Furthermore, it would perfectly acceptable if non-returning squadmates were treated in a manner similar to Wrex: a warm and fuzzy reunion, significant dialogue, and a solid reason as to why he can't rejoin your team.  Even MORE unfair than the above, however, is including squadmates from ME1 but NOT ME2, thus showing favoritism to people who played ME1.
[/quote]
Again: Wrex is equal to any and all ME2 squadmate. Killable. Liara and VS are not equal. They are the aristocracy, not killable, tied to the plot, etc... Even so, Tali & Garrus (as non-killable ME1 squadmates) got their second game already. For these reasons including Liara and VS in the ME3 squad is not "favoritism", it's "making due". And a sound marketing move: "We'll have some characters rejoining the squad, people!" -- "Yay!!!" -- [ME3 loading...] -- "But it's only this cheezy space babe Laira & stupid b*tch Ashley! where is mah bro Zaeed, and everyone's favorite walking toaster, damnit!!!" -- "Sorry, Zulu, they were killable, didn't you know?"


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...

Ashley has a confirmed role in ME3. YET SHE CAN DIE. Kaidan has a confirmed role in ME3. YET HE CAN DIE. They don't "have" to survive. Also, one's a soldier and the other's a sentinel. HUGE difference in class, and could REALLY affect team balance.
[/quote]
I remember you saying it yourself, that pity as it is, they are practically one character now, resulting from summing them up and dividing by two. So 50% of both original Ashley & Kaidan HAVE TO DIE, and 50% HAVE TO LIVE, while Wrex and any ME2 squadmate CAN 100% DIE. Simple math. And logic.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
BTW, to have a successful import, two people from ME2 "have" to survive as well.[/quote]
FALSE. I checked. A save with ALL SQUADMATES DEAD is valid for ME2 re-import. Do the logic.


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...
SOME would probably be assumed to survive, while YOUR import would match what YOU did. People just starting out would miss out on two squadmates at the most.
[/quote]
Possibly. Those assumed won't make squadmates though, because they can be dead in someone's import. Or do you suggest that newbies should be treated better than those who dropped money on the previous title, just didn't care to save the "right" squadmates? What can be "unfairer" than that?


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...

A third of the old squad was recruitable in ME2. Therefore, it is fairly safe to assume that up to a third of ME2's squad will be back on the Normandy for ME3.
[/quote]
And this is "fairly safe" how? Since when does a single instance create a pattern for extrapolation? Why not a half? Why not one quarter? Why not all of them? Why not none of them?


[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...

Zulu is arguing that no old squadmates should return.  I agree with you that we should get a mix of both old and new characters, as I look forward to meeting new faces. 
[/quote]
FALSE. I am not arguing that no old characters should return.

I am arguing that no ME2 squadmates should join the ME3 squad in vanilla ME3. As for "there should be a mix", it is perfectly covered by Liara and VS. Some people say that even they wont rejoin and the ME3 squad will be entirely brand new, but I don't agree with them because the marketing issues.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 novembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Elite Midget]

I would continue but Zulu is far better at this than I am. My points usually end up getting too emotional on my part... Than there's the thing where I hate being wrong because I'm pretty self-centered. >_>

[Zulu_DFA]

Elite Midget wrote...

Speaking of Zulu... He kinda faded out when I came in here. Strange. I usually end up agreeing with him on many points.

Elite Midget wrote...

I would continue but Zulu is far better at this than I am. My points usually end up getting too emotional on my part... Than there's the thing where I hate being wrong because I'm pretty self-centered. >_>

Careful now. Before long people will start claiming that you and me are the same user.

[AdmiralCheez]

Goddammit, Zulu, I was two glorious seconds away from hitting the sack.
[quote]Never made a secret of it. Just look at my profile status.[/quote]Well then, we obviously can't rule out your bias, now, can we?
[quote]No, if you can trust me on my word, I say Kaidan was the best squadmate on ME1, and he had to die on Virmire (for story a story reason). Ashley I will appreciate in ME3 only for scoffing her attitude and fraternization leanings. Of Liara I only care so much because she is the most important squadmate plotwise, but in ME1 I recruited her post-Virmire...[/quote]All right, I apologize, I was getting frustrated.  Anyway, you have a very interesting playstyle, but you seem to be taking a route most people wouldn't.  I suppose it can be fun to see how much you can screw with a non-linear plot.  But this isn't exactly relevant at the moment.  MOVING ON.
[quote]Of the ME2 squadmates I liked Zaeed, Mordin, Legion and maybe even Jack more than Kaidan, And Mordin and Jack kicked the bucket on the "suicide mission"... And I a kinda worried about those 5 cameos of my survivors: what if they are going to be undebuggably bugged like freaking Conrad?[/quote]Here's to hoping they don't.  As for myself, in my "canon" playthroughs I keep everyone alive, if only because the Shepard I am roleplaying cares about her squad and does not want to lose any more good soldiers after seriously screwing things up on Torfan.

[quote]You see, I care about the story and plot, not about particular characters. Character are good only if they fit the in the story well. I don't need them as tomagotchi/dolls/pets/calibrators...[/quote]

And I think that a story where all the characters are MacGuffins is stupid.  I DO believe that the story matters more than the cast.  The actual cake is more important than the frosting, but the frosting is still my favorite part.
[quote]Joker and Chakwas being picked up by TIM actually does make some sence. Tali and Garrus, on the other hand... Well, maybe too... but he never lets on that he knew about Archangel's identity, or his ulterior motive in putting Tali on the list. However, after I had denied the geth data to Tali in ME1, she is awfully trusting of my Shepard... My Shepard thinks Tali is an idiot, the real me think Tali is an immersion breaking piece of fan service. Kal'Reegar would make so much more sense as "the Quarian squadmate"! Tali could still be met at the Migrant fleet, and even scrogged in some "clean room" there, if that's what her cultists needed. Garrus could make so much more sense in Bailey's place...[/quote]Kal'Reegar is a BAMF.  I'd trade Tali for him faster than you can say flotilla.  As someone who's never romanced Tali, I haven't experienced the "immersion-breaking fanservice," but from what I hear from people that have, it's not so bad.  If you play paragon, anyway.  Whatever.  So BW screwed the romance up.  Talimancers ruin everything.

Anyway, Garrus.  Even if you paragon him up, I really can't see him operating well in C-Sec again.  Not after chasing down Saren, anyway.  Being a beat cop would feel too small for him, too tedious.  In hindsight, I really should have seen the Archangel thing coming.  Besides, Bailey's interesting.  I want to see more of him.
[quote]Maybe yes, maybe no. Who ever said that characters shouldn't return? As cameos? And preferably they should be run in is such places and ways, that don't make a galaxy with trillions of citizens look like a village of 200...[/quote]The "it's a small galaxy" thing happens a lot in space operas.  Like I said before, well-done cameos aren't a problem.  My point is that they don't necessarily have to be reduced to that role.  Our only precedent in this matter is Wrex.

[quote]1. Stopping the Collectors.
2. Working for Cerberus.
3. Replacing the Shadow Broker.
4. Fun.
5. "Fluent shooter gameplay" & "addictive planet scanning".[/quote]

Oh yeah, sure, it was fun, but theoretically you could skip ME2 and not miss anything in ME3, assuming ME3 focuses on stopping the damn Reapers this time.  The whole thing was like "Meanwhile, at Cerberus HQ..."  If ME2's going to do its job as a middle chapter, the alliances you forged and the friends you've made have to play a role.  I mean, seriously, did I just convince a bunch of melodramatic psychopaths that my cause is worth dying for only to never see them again?

On a side note, planet scanning can kiss my fat, white ass.

[quote]All those characters were:
1. Necessary for the plot, just like the space pandas.
2. Could not die in Empire Strikes Back.
3. Could not be pissed off by Luke in Empire Strikes Back.[/quote]

1. The space pandas were a mistake and you will be stoned for mentioning them.  Cute, though.  And they weren't necessary to the plot, either.  That whole business with the Ewoks could have been skipped with little effect on the overall story.  And think of how much money Lucas would have saved!
2. Han Solo was supposed to be dead.  He had too many fans.  George Lucas decided that he could come back, after all.
3. Luke's too much of a ninny to ****** people off.  You could have been a jerk to Tali in ME1 and she came back, anyway.  You could have been a jerk to Liara and she still saves your life and crushes on you.
[quote]DLC pay back on their own, so it's not a waste. I even say it myself, that ME2 squadmate may return full-time if thinks BioWare there will be a distincp pay-off for the resources invested in them. Including them on ME3 disk however will create too much of a free lunch for the character fans.[/quote]Free lunch?  Not for new players who will have the same characters available in the default save.  As for DLC, I have already expressed my opinion on that.
[quote]Cameos will greatly add up to ME3 too. That's about all you can demand and hope for.[/quote]Says you.
[quote]If a character kicked the bucket, he can't do anything.[/quote]Assuming he kicked the bucket.
[quote]As long as the rocket doesn't explode, your wet pants are your own damn fault. If the jet packs become real and available just like cars, people will use them to fly to work. The poll isn't mine, BTW.[/quote]I don't care whose poll it is.  You are using it as evidence for something it is not related to.  False salesmanship. 
[quote]Actually writers will have to make a lot of additional dialogue for Liara, to explain who she is and how she got to where she is to the new players. I'm not holding my breath for them to account for the possibility of not meeting Liara in ME2.[/quote]Okay, I missed the part where this was related to what I said.  Maybe I'm just dead tired.  Anyway, explaining who a character is and what they did can be done surprisingly quickly; you don't have to spoonfeed it.  I saw Return of the Jedi before seeing A New Hope, and I had a pretty easy time firguring out who's who.  I was five.  In fact, I watched a lot of movies as a kid out of order.  I STILL had a pretty good grip on everyone's role in the story and relationship with one another, even though no one ever stopped to explain, "by the way, this is the guy who made apple pie and killed a man in part one."

Speaking of Star Wars, there's always zooming prologue text.
[quote]The easiest way to ****** off all the little crowds of character fans is to include just the selected few inthe ME3 squad. Even if they are Legion. Especially after BioWare's bragging about how they treat all the characters equally. (Don't get me started about Liara and VS, though. They are "more equal".)[/quote]Thankfully, the hardcore character fans are a minority.  Nothing wrong with well-done Wrexisms to appease them (hell, it was enough for me--I was glad to have anyone back at all).  Again, no returning squadmates is perfectly fine if it's handled well, but that does not mean they all SHOULD be reduced to cameos.
[quote]Again: Wrex is equal to any and all ME2 squadmate. Killable. Liara and VS are not equal. They are the aristocracy, not killable, tied to the plot, etc... Even so, Tali & Garrus (as non-killable ME1 squadmates) got their second game already. For these reasons including Liara and VS in ME3 squad is not "favoritism", it's "making due". And a sound marketing move: "We'll have some characters rejoining the squad, people!" -- "Yay!!!" -- [ME3 loading...] -- "But it's only this cheezy space babe Laira & stupid b*tch Ashley! where is mah bro Zaeed, and everyone's favorite walking toaster, damnit!!!" -- "Sorry, Zulu, they were killable, didn't you know?"[/quote]You assume the same rules that governed ME1->ME2 will govern ME2->ME3.  They weren't expecting the sheer amount of imported saves (ZOMG HALF OF THEM IMPORTED GOD DAMN WE COULD HAVE DONE MORE WITH THIS THING!), nor were they certain of how much they could do with the import feature.  They did not know that most people would get everyone out alive.  Thus, the glory of middle chapters: they're the perfect place to experiment with possible changes.

Anyway, it's still favoritism, since ME2 players would be getting no returning squadmates at all.  Even if you hated Liara, she's still someone who was by your side back in the good old days, a valuable source of emotional connection and continuity.  For people who never got to play ME1 and skipped right into ME2 (they are horrible sinners, but aren't we all?), however, the promise of returning squadmates would be hollow.  "What the hell?  I don't remember YOU fighting the giant terminator fetus thing!  Weren't you that power ranger chick who trash talked me on Horizon?  Where the hell is Grunt?  Bioware, you LIED!"

Seriously, two out of a possible fifteen (max number of survivors) is a pretty lousy reunion.  Even if Emocakes Lungcancer McFlashback and Good Stuff le Prize are the only ones lucky enough to make it back on the squad, I'd still take them.  They are a precious piece of continuity and emotional connectivity, even if I hated their guts in the previous game.

So, can I go to bed now?

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 22 novembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

after seriously screwing things up on Torfan.

Wrong. Major Kyle screwed things up on Torfan.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So, can I go to bed now?

No, there's more already.

[Elite Midget]

I'm sure people will believe what they will, Zulu. Though if they read our posts they could easily find out how much different we are and how we debate our views.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 22 novembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, there's more already.

DAMMIT.

[Zulu_DFA]

They did not know that most people would get everyone out alive.

Are you sure that most people get everyone out alive?



Even now a random dude comes here once in a while and asks to get shown to the "Ultimate Guide" thread... which is still a little short of 1,000,000 views.

[AdmiralCheez]

I remember you saying it yourself, that pity as it is, they are practically one character now, resulting from summing them up and dividing by two. So 50% of both original Ashley & Kaidan HAVE TO DIE, and 50% HAVE TO LIVE, while Wrex and any ME2 squadmate CAN 100% DIE. Simple math. And logic.

Actually, no.  The chances of any given Charater X in ME2 dying are much lower than the VS (75/25, assuming most people play DudeShep) and Wrex (75% death rate, assuming half of all players didn't import and half of those that imported saved him).  Looking at what we have available for ME2 data, most people survive on most saves.  We can therefore roughly peg each one's death rate at 20%.  I know I'm pulling these numbers out of my ass at the moment, but after the current round of midterms is over, I'll look more deeply into it.

FALSE. I checked. A save with ALL SQUADMATES DEAD is valid for ME2 re-import. Do the logic.

In ME2, yes and only through hacking.  Your save may very well cause your console of choice to explode upon ME3 import.  Of course ME2 wouldn't care who died in that save, since you're going to go and recruit them all again, anyway!

Possibly. Those assumed won't make squadmates though, because they can be dead in someone's import. Or do you suggest that newbies should be treated better than those who dropped money on the previous title, just didn't care to save the "right" squadmates? What can be "unfairer" than that?

Again, most people have at least one save where everybody made it out alive.  That number will go up as people continue to replay the game.  Only a very small minority would have reason to nerd rage, and of that minority most people killed off those squadmates on purpose.  You gonna cry because you can't re-recruit that one guy you hated enough to let him be carried away by evil robot bees?

And this is "fairly safe" how? Since when does a single instance create a pattern for extrapolation? Why not a half? Why not one quarter? Why not all of them? Why not none of them?

TWO returning squadmates divided by a possible SIX equals ONE THIRD.  It's not so much a shot in the dark as it is a shot in a dimly lit room.  About as "fairly safe" as assuming that everyone will be cameo'd just because it happened to one character (Wrex).

FALSE. I am not arguing that no old characters should return.

Oops.  When I said old, I meant "ME2."  Pardon the clarity fail on my part.

I am arguing that no ME2 squadmates should join the ME3 squad in vanilla ME3. As for "there should be a mix", it is perfectly covered by Liara and VS. Some people say that even they won't rejoin and the ME3 squad will be entirely brand new, but I don't agree with them because the marketing issues.

I don't have enough data to verify this at the moment, but I think more people played ME2 than did ME1 (50% save import rate is currently all I have to go on).  Again, they will not be happy about getting Lil' Miss Shadow Broker and Angry Pink Power Ranger when these characters meant little to them unless they played ME1 or downloaded LotSB.  I don't think Bioware's dumb enough to induce the rage of people who happened to like the ME2 squad, especially when survival rates are so high (I totally wish I had harder data to go by, dammit).

[AdmiralCheez]

Are you sure that most people get everyone out alive?

Even now a random dude comes here once in a while and asks to get shown to the "Ultimate Guide" thread... which is still a little short of 1,000,000 views.

Well, if roughly 40% of players can do it on their first try, I don't see how it's much of a stretch to assume so.

I'll whip a poll specifically addressing the question of you want.

[AdmiralCheez]

Wrong. Major Kyle screwed things up on Torfan.

Well, my Shep thinks that the blood of her men is on her hands.  Huzzah for roleplay!

EDIT: Okay, can't keep my eyes open no mores.  Zulu, I'll deal with you and Elite tomorrow! ;-)

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 22 novembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[M8DMAN]

Dougdh wrote...

excuse me while I laugh my ass off at your expense.

Zulu's post always give me a good laugh. 

But I am starting to get tired of his stupid Poll's.

Modifié par M8DMAN, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:03 .

[Zulu_DFA]

M8DMAN wrote...

Dougdh wrote...

excuse me while I laugh my ass off at your expense.

Zulu's post always give me a good laugh. 

But I am starting to get tired of his stupid Poll's.

Feel free to vote in this one, pal!

[Undertone]

Geez all I read those days is Tali, Liara, VS and whining (there's a much stronger word but alas civil language) how this and that should happen. How someone can go fanatical over characters as boring as Tali and Liara is beyond me. (although I must admit they've improved Liara in ME2) I am so happy there was finally an opportunity to get rid of that annoying quarian. But that's besides the point.



When it comes to companions I have my favorite ones obviously. In ME2 half of the characters I liked died in the suicide mission. Why? Because their death allowed Shepard to continue. Because death and sacrifice are more awesome then a cliche happy ending. Saving the entire crew in the Suicide Mission not only is retarded but should have been either impossible to do or made extremely hard (and a real achievement).



When it comes to companions returning - that should be based on their usefulness. Simple as that. I am not above seeing new faces either so long they are useful. For example how a thief like Kasumi was useful in the SM was beyond me. For me ideally a 10 man crew would be fine I guess. 6 or 7 old characters from ME 1 and 2 and 4-3 completely new characters. Like I said it doesn't matter to me so long they are useful. When it comes to my favourite characters they died a worthy death - Thane and Zaeed namely. Jack and Garrus might make come as companions but if they don't I won't whine like every lousy Tali fan.



What I'm more worried is renegade characters being as always nerfed/lose content. I liked killing Wrex = lack of content. I killed the Rachni queen = lack of content. Didn't help Parisini = lack of content. Killed the old woman that was crime lord = lack of content. Like I already mentioned some of us actually like our companions to die - even those we like. I am sick and tired of Paragons getting all the content and everything magically working out with the Talk-Jutsu Shepard possesses. It breaks immersion, let alone illogical.



So the real problem I can see is how the Renegade Shepard won't be nerfed. I can totally see the same **** again - Paragon Shepard gets all the content in the form of cameos etc. Renegade Shepard simply gets the lack of that.



For example I loved how in KotoR if you kill Juhani you have Belaya (or whatever her name was) leaving the Jedi and training on Korriban as a Sith vowing revenge against you. And when you go to Korriban, your choice carries and you have to fight her. That's how it should be. Killing important people should have repercussions in one form or another and that's just a small example. Another thing which is too much to ask is having companions betray you. Again Shepard seem to possess the Talk-Jutsu and converts everyone to his cause with no problem making them abandon whatever previous allegiances or beliefs they had. More rifts between companions - ME2 got better with this but I want to see a more extreme choice - picking the side of a companion at the expense of another companion resulting in either betrayal/leaving Shepard or outright attack against Shepard.





And last but not least - **** *** new players. It's the third installment! I don't know a gamer who will buy a third game from the same installment which is so obviously story related and interconnected. I can understand a sequel but the third installment - come on. This is not a shooter like MW with independent story in each game. Making ME3 noob friendly will cost too much off the story and impact the quality.



Garrus is a perfect example of disappointment when it comes to making him noob friendly. All we hear from him is one line - "just like old times." For me who had him as a companion every single moment in ME1 that was just plain wrong. I would rather have him as cameo in ME3 then as a noob friendly companion.



As always I wish there were more posters like Zulu and less uber idealistic "save-it-all" paragons or the even more annoying Talimancers or whatever term is applied for them nowadays. It's cool to like a character, but a whole different issue what's going on the forum when it comes to her and a few others.

[Zulu_DFA]

Undertone wrote...

a real achievement

Well, seeing how a couple of "achievements" are awarded just for starting the game, the "No One Left Behind" must really feel as a Medal of Honor for some people out there. No wonder they feel entitled.

[Count Viceroy]

Undertone wrote...

As always I wish there were more posters like Zulu and less uber idealistic "save-it-all" paragons

Post the most ridiculous threads and theories one can think of, then selectivley answer the bits you like and totally disregard the stuff you don't like or can't explain?

Would make for a good forum community I'm sure.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 22 novembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

McBeath wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I just ask myself; who in their right mind would buy a BioWare game with a big fat THREE next to its name without having played the previous title(s)?

It's almost comical, if you ask me.

The same shooter loving fans that bought ME2.

What I find comical is the number of fans who were outraged by ME2 when it was released. It was an unforgivable sin that Bioware did what they did so that they could market the game to more people. They forget that Bioware is a business.

Those fans couldn't believe that ME2 featured a "dumbed down" inventory system, simpler skill tree or ammo for our guns. Bioware did those things, and more, to market the game.

They expected ME2 to be certain things that it wasn't. They had thier "truths", like people here do, about what it HAD to be. No if's, and's or but's. It was going to be THIS. It wasn't, and they nerd-raged. Whatever.

Did Bioware care? Probibly not. They bought the game. Maybe they sold it later, traded it in or don't play it much... but they bought it. As did lots of new players to the franchise. That's thier bottom line, sales. They'll do whatever they think is best to ensure sales for ME3. Maybe they(Bioware) think like the OP, maybe they don't.

The funniest is that we must have place-holders to either perserve content OR provide us with a certain NPC Turian that will allow us to recruit the whole of the Turian Fleet to fight the Reapers.... like a fleet of giant spaceships intent on our destruction wasn't enough in the first place. Better get Garrus third cousin(since he's dead) to do it for us!

All we can do is go but what we've seen in the past from them as a company, and wait. Too many people have thier misconceptions about what ME3 will be. I'm probibly one of them. Until that first trailer is released we'll just have to wait.

Cheers. McBeath.

You should read the Disappointment thread because the complaints from Mass Effect fans are not as black and white as you have been led to believe. The primary discontentment we had with ME2 was not necessarily the streamlined elements - honestly, I fancied both combat systems - however it fell upon Bioware's decision to remove, not repair less than satisfactory concept design. Case in point, the Inventory system. A simple rapid scroll feature and less worthless equipment would have gone a long way in appease the RPG fanbase. Granted, I am not one to whom was adamantly disappointed with its removal. What I did find disheartening was the utter lack of customization. Nonetheless, Bioware has shown to listen to our complaints with the release of the Hammer Head. I may detest the atrocity and still miss the Mako, however it certainly indicates Bioware is listening and for that I am appreciative regardless of my personal dislike of the add on.

Moving on, Bioware and by extension, EA better care about their present fanbase. People purchased Mass Effect 2 due to the love of Mass Effect alongside new gamers curious of the franchise. A large quantity have subsequently played ME in an effort to witness the entire scope of the story and plot available, or at least the continued success of ME would insinuate such. Furthermore, numerous people have flocked to fawning particular characters, specifically Garrus despite having not necessarily played the first game. Thus, if it is revealed that our present cast is regulated to cameo. It is not illogical to assume people will question purchasing the game. Mass Effect did not have as large a cast and retained two of the five available. Despite this, there had been immense backlash for Wrex's absence in the sequel. I cannot imagine Bioware would intentionally opt cameo the whole cast in M2 when it has widely been cited the most disappointing element in the past. Of course the counter argument "If Wrex was too difficult to import, than more characters would be astronomical" is not devoid of merit, and frankly it is most greatest concern.

I am not naive enough to believe the entire cast is or even should return, although wishful contemplation would certainly claim that the most ideal. Hell if I am to be honest, I would fancy no new squad mates regardless of the number of returning characters and development them further. Bioware has the ability to do something exceptionally unique with the characters and romance subplots, something no game I can recall has ever had the capability to perform. I am hopeful they push the envelop and go for it. That being said, if the entire cast is cameo'd, I feel the series would be a letdown. Mass Effect 2 would be essentially pointless as you could literally skip the game completely and miss little of importance. I am too optimistic to believe Bioware is not aware of this and therefore will include a decent amount of our squad.

Which leads me to a potential hypothesis. We could have stand in NPCs to fulfill the void in the event some characters are lost, although it is not necessary for all. Take Wrex for an example. He could return to assist Shepard in ME3, yet had he been killed in ME, we received Wreav as a squad mate. The difference? Wrex would have unique and plentiful dialogue players of the original game would be presented with. Wreav would be a nigh identical character in gameplay design if need be, however the presentation from a plot perspective would be there for players would have imported all the way from Mass Effect. This is a tall order to adhere to, it is perhaps the best plausible compromise where everyone walks away happy. Shooter fans dislike legions of dialogue anyway, therefore Wreav can keep his mouth shut and Wrex can chat away. Further win-win!

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:45 .

[SimonTheFrog]

I keep reading the term "fan service" a lot. Especially in conjunction with characters. It is mainly used as a rhetorical trump if real arguments are not available or its not even a real debate. But what does that even mean?

It's not like Mass Effect is l'art-pour-l'art and certain characters are the only concession to the audience. The whole damn game is fan service. This is what games are about: pleasing the fans. In this sense, the consistent story without plot-holes is fan service, too. Or a fluid shooting experience. All fan service. Now how can this term be used in a derogative way?



It's just a silly matter of taste. Certain parts you like about the game are "really necessary" and other parts you don't like are "fan service". Like, consistent story: necessary! Cheezy squadmates: fan service!



Honestly, this is no way of having an argument. It's just silly, meaningless rhetoric. So, please, for the sake of intelligent discussions, stop using it.



Now, I agree that BioWare dug itself a hole here with having all squaddies in ME2 possibly die. Especially because 75% of the "plot" in ME2 was about getting them on the ship in the first place. But this is where we stand, no way of denying that.



My guess is, like many other posts here, that BioWare will provide some squadmates from ME2 as squadmate in ME3 again. Especially all the ones that are possible LI's (yes, that includes Thane). Simply because they gathered data about player's behaviour and they know how many players saved a majority of squadmates in their ME2 run (not just guesses, they KNOW!). So, economically, catering to that audience is wise.

The question for me is, whether they will create dummies for dead crewmembers (pretty much like Wreav) or just have the player live with less squadmates.

In this case we can at least make the assumption that ME3 will provide 3 totally new squadmates (with the possible Liara as one of them). One biotic, one tech and one soldier. This will give everyone a minimum base for beating the game.

That would make 3 + 6 + 1 = 10 squadmates in ME3. 3 are new, 6 are the LI's in ME2 and 1 is VS. Liara may either be among the 3 or keep being a cameo, albeit an important one.



This is a solid guess from a game design perspective. Now, how the writers will create explanations about all the squadmates that you estranged or p.o.'ed in ME2 and that they still work for you in ME3 is their job. They kinda made clear from ME1 to ME2 that they'll sacrifice story and consistency for gameplay. So i think they will do this again in ME3.

[Elite Midget]

Why would all 6 of the LIs return if you can only have 1 LI in M2 outside of having a LI in ME1 that you cheated on?

[Zulu_DFA]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

This is a solid guess from a game design perspective. Now, how the writers will create explanations about all the squadmates that you estranged or p.o.'ed in ME2 and that they still work for you in ME3 is their job. They kinda made clear from ME1 to ME2 that they'll sacrifice story and consistency for gameplay. So i think they will do this again in ME3.

So, in other words, they'll give us our "expandable dolls" back. That's great. Quantity rules. Solid gameplay. Good thing I killed off them all so I won't get another tour of calibrations.



What about Kelly? Am I to be punished here too by the necessity to feed my own fish, because I suck so much at games?

[SimonTheFrog]

Elite Midget wrote...

Why would all 6 of the LIs return if you can only have 1 LI in M2 outside of having a LI in ME1 that you cheated on?

??

Because you are not the only player who bought the game. All 6 are being romanced by people out there. And the conflict between ME1 LI and ME2 LI makes a nice drama in ME3. Or staying faithfull... or whatever. It's good material for the character-designers to work with.