762 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

That's pretty much guaranteed, if you ask me. Along with the VS, of course. 

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 24 novembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Da_Lion_Man]

Just a last question FieryPhoenix7... do you think Garrus and Tali can become squad members? I know they're killable in ME2, but they are very popular characters and I can imagine some people not liking the fact they'll be cameos.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Honestly, I can't answer that. Sorry. ><"

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Is it just me or are you guys assuming that Liara will be a squadmate in ME3? If anything, LOTSB seems to confirm otherwise.

Yes, we are assuming that her sitting on that Shadow Broker's ship will of course be important at the start but won't last long into ME3, because a former squadmate who is 100% alive and 90% static is too valuable an asset to pass up while raising the ME3 squad. More here.

Feron's been introduced as a character and will be on the ME3 squad as well. As a "new face you might have already seen somewhere..."



@ Sir Ulrich

You keep stunning me with your insights into ME design and mechanics.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

All right, let's face it, Liara fans are luckier than most.

I really do think that says it all, Zulu.

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

All right, let's face it, Liara fans are luckier than most.

I really do think that says it all, Zulu.

Yes. Luckier. Because it just so happened that the character they hit on turned out to be the "right" one.

And I see a lot of jealosy from the rival fan bases, which only confirms my impression that deep down they concur that the message of this thread likely to be true.

[Nozybidaj]

Ieldra2 wrote...
"Don't invest emotionally in the characters we make"

Isn't that pretty much what ME2 and DA2 are telling us? 

And really once I lost that emotional investment in ME2 the game was really, well, boring.  The gameplay is improved but it still isn't spectacular.  The story itself (what little of it there was) was uninspired, and since I really didn't care anything about the characters....  I've been playing video games for more years than I care to remember at this point and ME2 is one I'll rank as about the biggest disappoint I've ever had the misfortune of playing.

If they do bring back the ME2 squad in any significant way, at the very least a lot of folks will be spared that same disappointment, but I don't really see it happening.  I'm  not entirely sure BW understands how and why folks play their games.

[Zulu_DFA]

New feedback data from BioWare is up.

[Da_Lion_Man]

I don't see what is so surprising about the statistics. The only thing that surprises me a little bit is how many people keep the Collector Base. Didn't think there would be that many, I always had the impression not many people keep it.

[Fiery Phoenix]

WOW!! WOOOW! That is beyond unexpected.

[Zulu_DFA]

To me, the most surprising is 83% editing Shepards's face. I'd expect it to be no higher than 65-70%... Guess Sheploo really sucks.

[Ieldra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
What we disagree about is the course of action BioWare must take in the light of that. You say that BioWare ought to persist in their erronneous ways, since doing otherwise would displease "many people". Let's not here delve into how many exactly, and into whether the fans have more "rights" than casuals and noobs... I just say that it'd be utterly retarded not to make amends for the huge f*cking mistake ME2 was, especially since it would obviously be in accordance with the initial BioWare's intent (to use the ME2 squad for one time only -- see Casey Hudson's comments about ME1 LIs).

I say that casual players and noobs are as likely to care about their ME2 LIs as diehard fans like myself. They might even be *more* disappointed in them not reappearing since that possibility might not have crossed their minds.

What I agree with you is this: it is desirable for Bioware to remove enough characters from the team that it becomes possible to create a better-focused ME3. But the plain fact is that while they *can* remove the ME2 characters from the team, they cannot reduce them to one-time cameos without pissing a lot of people off. LI characters are important for anyone who played the game with more in mind than "I must shoot things", casual players and fans alike. They've spent 30-40 game hours with these characters and have come to like at least one. *Of course* they care. Everyone who has any attachment to any ME2 LI, fan or not, will feel it keenly if they don't reappear in a significant capacity. Emotional investment is not a trivial matter, and to assume that only diehard fans care it is to dismiss one reason why people have ever liked stories.

Having said that, I think for many fans it would be an acceptable compromise to have their LIs not on the team, as long as there was significant (!) interaction with them. If the ME2 characters have their own storyline within the greater plot, and you experience it through several dialogue scenes in different places and things like mails in-between instead of directly participating, they would have the desired screen presence but not create the image of an overly frayed team. From a storytelling perspective it might even be preferable, for the ME2 LIs could have a significant part in the greater plot instead of just being Shepard's satellites. It'd be like having a multi-pronged story where Shepards plays the most important thread and you get the others through dialogue scenes and mails.

Even so, I'm quite sure that what almost every player wishes for whose Shepard has an LI, casual player, fan or utter noob alike, is to go into the final battle of ME3 with that character at Shepard's side. I'm reasonably sure Bioware will try to make that possible.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

http://social.bioware.com/1449956/polls/4680/

Now, Liara and Virmire Survivor are the only two former squadmates, that are alive in all saves. Others are expendable => waste of ME3 resources.

=> ME2 squadmates = cameos, DLCs.

Oh, here's this "expendable" thing again.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
__________________________________________________________________________
On another note, make up a list of up to 5 new squadmates you wish to be in ME3. Be serious!

Mine:

Feron
Batarian escaped slave / former Special Intervention Unit member Mad Prophet
Mordin's nephew
Turian female spectre (flexibility!)
Joker Father Grigory Kahoku's son Kai Leng

If you're one to take the LotSB "totally omniscient Shadow Broker" video seriously, it appears that Maelin is dead. 

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Reasons for ME2 squadmates to be absent (dead) from ME3, aside from death on the suicide mission:
Thane - terminally ill
Mordin - old age
Legion - sent to Cerberus
Grunt - dies in the tank
Samara - killed for Morinth
Zaeed - abandoned to burn on Zorya
Kasumi - hunted for her graybox
Tali - suicidal over dad's honor (unloyalty)
Jack - mental disorder (?) or detained by Cerberus for study
Garrus - none, but simple unloyalty (Sidonis at large)

None of which have to be the case, however.  

At least six of those are NEVER true at the end of any of my playthroughs, and more are potentially resolvable in future game content.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Having said that, I think for many fans it would be an acceptable compromise to have their LIs not on the team, as long as there was significant (!) interaction with them. If the ME2 characters have their own storyline within the greater plot, and you experience it through several dialogue scenes in different places and things like mails in-between instead of directly participating, they would have the desired screen presence but not create the image of an overly frayed team. From a storytelling perspective it might even be preferable, for the ME2 LIs could have a significant part in the greater plot instead of just being Shepard's satellites. It'd be like having a multi-pronged story where Shepards plays the most important thread and you get the others through dialogue scenes and mails.

This I agree with, and think it's possible.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Even so, I'm quite sure that what almost every player wishes for whose Shepard has an LI, casual player, fan or utter noob alike, is to go into the final battle of ME3 with that character at Shepard's side. I'm reasonably sure Bioware will try to make that possible.

This I don't agree with. Going into any kind of battle with a person you care for as much or more than yourself? Bad role-playing I say.

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

http://social.bioware.com/1449956/polls/4680/

Now, Liara and Virmire Survivor are the only two former squadmates, that are alive in all saves. Others are expendable => waste of ME3 resources.

=> ME2 squadmates = cameos, DLCs.

Oh, here's this "expendable" thing again.

It's been here like for 7 months.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
__________________________________________________________________________
On another note, make up a list of up to 5 new squadmates you wish to be in ME3. Be serious!

Mine:

Feron
Batarian escaped slave / former Special Intervention Unit member Mad Prophet
Mordin's nephew
Turian female spectre (flexibility!)
Joker Father Grigory Kahoku's son Kai Leng

If you're one to take the LotSB "totally omniscient Shadow Broker" video seriously, it appears that Maelin is dead. 

Who is Maelin?

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Reasons for ME2 squadmates to be absent (dead) from ME3, aside from death on the suicide mission:
Thane - terminally ill
Mordin - old age
Legion - sent to Cerberus
Grunt - dies in the tank
Samara - killed for Morinth
Zaeed - abandoned to burn on Zorya
Kasumi - hunted for her graybox
Tali - suicidal over dad's honor (unloyalty)
Jack - mental disorder (?) or detained by Cerberus for study
Garrus - none, but simple unloyalty (Sidonis at large)

None of which have to be the case, however.  

At least six of those are NEVER true at the end of any of my playthroughs, and more are potentially resolvable in future game content.

Any one of these issues CAN be the case, and resolving all them (and other issues) just to "bring them back" will seriously detract game content from the really important stuff which awaits to be addressed, like, you know, the Reapers, plus a sh*tload of "Chekhov's guns".

[Elyvern]

I wonder how does 14% of squadmates die on average in ME2 playthroughs as released by Bioware go towards debunking this theory.

[Elite Midget]

I would much rather that the ME2 Squadies solve their own problems by the time ME3 starts and are off doing their part, in a grander scale, to aid in Shepards cause. That and I don't want any more screentime wasted on fixing their Daddy Issues.

Bioware made them killable. Statistics can't change that decision. Besides, I'm pretty sure most ME1 Imports had a living Wrex anyway. Especially since Paragon seems the more popular choice for those not that into the game(Especially the CoD Fans). Than there is that chunk of people that didn't even finish ME2... They must have hated the Babysitting too much.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

http://social.bioware.com/1449956/polls/4680/

Now, Liara and Virmire Survivor are the only two former squadmates, that are alive in all saves. Others are expendable => waste of ME3 resources.

=> ME2 squadmates = cameos, DLCs.

Oh, here's this "expendable" thing again.

It's been here like for 7 months.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
__________________________________________________________________________
On another note, make up a list of up to 5 new squadmates you wish to be in ME3. Be serious!

Mine:

Feron
Batarian escaped slave / former Special Intervention Unit member Mad Prophet
Mordin's nephew
Turian female spectre (flexibility!)
Joker Father Grigory Kahoku's son Kai Leng

If you're one to take the LotSB "totally omniscient Shadow Broker" video seriously, it appears that Maelin is dead. 

Who is Maelin?

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Reasons for ME2 squadmates to be absent (dead) from ME3, aside from death on the suicide mission:
Thane - terminally ill
Mordin - old age
Legion - sent to Cerberus
Grunt - dies in the tank
Samara - killed for Morinth
Zaeed - abandoned to burn on Zorya
Kasumi - hunted for her graybox
Tali - suicidal over dad's honor (unloyalty)
Jack - mental disorder (?) or detained by Cerberus for study
Garrus - none, but simple unloyalty (Sidonis at large)

None of which have to be the case, however.  

At least six of those are NEVER true at the end of any of my playthroughs, and more are potentially resolvable in future game content.

Any one of these issues CAN be the case, and resolving all them (and other issues) just to "bring them back" will seriously detract game content from the really important stuff which awaits to be addressed, like, you know, the Reapers, plus a sh*tload of "Chekhov's guns".

(Maelin = Mordin's former assistant.  For some reason, whenever someone brings up Mordin's nephew, I get the two backwards for a moment, and I didn't catch myself this time.)

Can be the case != is the case.  As I said, six of them are NEVER true in any of my saves.  In those six cases, the reason you give to not bring them back is be entirely irrelevent in any save that ends with all characters alive and loyal.

One example from the other six: If the "greybox" ties into the larger story, then it becomes a reason to bring Kasumi back, not a reason to automatically leave her out.  We don't have a solid idea of what's on it, but some of suggested based on images pulled from the cut scene that it has to do with the Reapers. 

Different example:  unless you were sadistic or careless and got him killed, Thane is always sick at the end of ME2.  As much as I like Thane as a character, I can't see bringing him back as a regular member of the squad in ME3. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Elite Midget wrote...

I would much rather that the ME2 Squadies solve their own problems by the time ME3 starts and are off doing their part, in a grander scale, to aid in Shepards cause. That and I don't want any more screentime wasted on fixing their Daddy Issues.

Bioware made them killable. Statistics can't change that decision. Besides, I'm pretty sure most ME1 Imports had a living Wrex anyway. Especially since Paragon seems the more popular choice for those not that into the game(Especially the CoD Fans). Than there is that chunk of people that didn't even finish ME2... They must have hated the Babysitting too much.

If you were too sadistic or careless to get your entire squad through ME2, then you have an import where some of them are dead.  Simple.

If you didn't finish ME2, you don't have an import for ME3, and you get the same sort of "worst of all worlds" default for ME3 that we had for ME2, at least until someone creates a save-game editor.  Simple.

[Elite Midget]

Yeah, import them as dead so they don't show up as Cameo's.



I think it's more sadistic to throw Game Balance out the window because you want the ME2 Zombies back. Especially since we know that characters like Thane will be dead, even if they survive the Suicide Mission, by the time ME3 hits.



So you would choose to punish newcomers into the series because you want ME2 Zombies back even though they already did what they were meant to do in ME2? I mean, if Bioware wanted them to return as a Squadie and the such than none of them would be killable. Hell, some can die in many different ways.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Elite Midget wrote...

Yeah, import them as dead so they don't show up as Cameo's.

I think it's more sadistic to throw Game Balance out the window because you want the ME2 Zombies back. Especially since we know that characters like Thane will be dead, even if they survive the Suicide Mission, by the time ME3 hits.

So you would choose to punish newcomers into the series because you want ME2 Zombies back even though they already did what they were meant to do in ME2? I mean, if Bioware wanted them to return as a Squadie and the such than none of them would be killable. Hell, some can die in many different ways.

The question is, why should we accommodate newcomers in lieu of the already established fanbase? The Harry Potter novels were not written with the belief nor consideration someone may decide to start from the fourth forward, and while I am acutely aware gaming development differs, the example remains the same. The reality is, unless Mass Effect 3 is radically altered from the presentation we have grown accustom to. It will not attract many new faces, at least not those will devoid of interest in the prior entries into the series. Despite a significantly larger focus upon gameplay, primarily in the realm of FPS.

This series will not appeal as a whole to FPS fans. Some may have an objective enough opinion to praise the work and degree of depth, yet still cite the game is not their forte. The majority will complain about lengthily dialogue, long and frequent cut-scenes and monotonous busy work. They desire a game to pick up and play, hence the immense popularity of Halo and Call of Duty. No one cares about their campaign, I can assure.

There is no sadism in allotting for characters to return should they survive the suicide mission. It is a reward to people who have played the prior games. Frankly, I ponder why it is newcomers would even derive enough concern of past party members. If I picked up Mass Effect 3 will minimal knowledge of the series, the likelihood I give a damn about Garrus is remote. Hell if ME3 did attract some FPS fans. The less characters, the better for most of them.

I suppose all we can hope for is Bioware does not appeal to the FPS crowd any further because I fear for this series if they do.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 24 novembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[Nozybidaj]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The question is, why should we accommodate newcomers in lieu of the already established fanbase?

Except it is not a question.  They ARE going to accommodate the newcomers.  They ARE going to cater to new, as of yet untapped market segments.  This isn't a question of what should BW do, its more a "this is what they are going to do, what now".  They did this same thing in ME2 to the ME1 fans, they are doing it in DA2 to the DAO fans, they have already stated ME3 will be a standalone experience the same way ME2 was. 

I don't think trying to predict what they will do (ie: what characters will be back) in ME3 based on the assumption that BW is going to cater to "established fans" is going to get you anywhere.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 24 novembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Elite Midget]

It is sadism since it would effect Game Balance, Plot Progression, Max Squad Size, and fail to have the Squadies become more connected to the plot since they all can die in a previous game. Thus Bioware wont be able to give them any where near enough relevance to the ME2 Zombies since it would cause plotholes, inconsistencies, and the fact that not everyone would have the same surviving Squadies.

It's pretty much a waste of time trying to weave the ME2 Zombies into the plot as Squadies for ME3 since it would only end up alienateing new and old fans(Would get angry their ME2 Zombie didn't make it to ME3 or that their ME2 Zombie didn't say much of anything at all) which is something Bioware has said they wanted to avoid hence the PS3 ME2 getting that Comic instead of a shoddy port. That and they will care if they find out that they start out with less Squadies and get less Max Squadies than an importer which would ruin Game Balance as a whole.

Bioware would gain so much more trying to accomodate newcomers than trying to appease old and louder fans(Especially the Talimancers) because they want their ME2 Zombies back in their Squad despite ME3 taking place more than a year later. Besides, if Bioware 'wanted' to ME2 Squadies back thanthey would have given them a VS scenario so that they would be alive in every save for ME3. Bioware didn't. Instead they op'd for the Wrex Scenerio conserning the Suicide Mission.

Finally...

Those new to ME and never played ME1 weren't punished that severely in Default ME2. They missed Cameo's and extra dialouge but nothing as extreme as less max Squadies.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 24 novembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[-Skorpious-]

This new update gives me hope for ME3. Garrus (admittedly my favorite) is the most popular and only 14% of squadmates died on average.

Hopefully Bioware looks at these statistics thoroughly when designing ME3.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Elite Midget wrote...

Yeah, import them as dead so they don't show up as Cameo's.

I think it's more sadistic to throw Game Balance out the window because you want the ME2 Zombies back. Especially since we know that characters like Thane will be dead, even if they survive the Suicide Mission, by the time ME3 hits.

So you would choose to punish newcomers into the series because you want ME2 Zombies back even though they already did what they were meant to do in ME2? I mean, if Bioware wanted them to return as a Squadie and the such than none of them would be killable. Hell, some can die in many different ways.

Please note the non-sequitor in your post.  Having some of the squadies from ME2 does not, automatically, upset game balance, or anything else -- any more than having Tali and Garrus from ME1 upset anything in ME2  (well, it upset the people who hate them for no reason other than that someone else likes them, but that's not really part of the game itself). 


As for examples such as Thane, you'll please note that I did say that it would be a stretch to bring Thane back in ME3, and he's one of my favorite squadies from ME2.  As another example, I prefer Zaeed to Jacob, but I think it's more likely that we'll see Jacob back in ME3.


The funniest part of these discussions, however, is that those who want* the ME2 squadies to all go away (preferably by death in a fire, it seems) keep refering to them as "expendables", "zombies", and the like.  If your points about this were as strong as you like to think, you could just refer to them as characters, and leave it at that. 

*  Yes, WANT.   If it were just a matter of dry, cold analysis, we wouldn't see the firey, impassioned attempts at arguing that they'll be gone.