762 réponses à ce sujet

[-Skorpious-]

Garrus and Tali are the Scorpion and Subzero of he Mass Effect series - it wouldn't be the same without them. While I can't speak for the popularity of the rest of the ME2 crew, I am at least positive that if those two are absent there will be a ****storm larger than the Saren fiasco in ME.

Also, one has to remember Bioware initially said a romance with Tali/Garrus was impossible. I wouldn't put it past Bioware to include our favorite Turian/Quarian to avoid major fan backlash.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 25 novembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[Elite Midget]

It'll be just fine without them. Besides, Tali was never the Cover Girl in any of the games unlike the MK Characters. In ME1 it was Ashley and Garrus with Shepard and in ME2 it was Miranda and Thane with Shepard.



Bioware could have done that if they didn't chose to make them expendable, a bunch of Zombies, and the like in ME2 ala Wrex.



You know, unless Bioware find someway to revive the dead Squadies in ME3 so that they could actually be used in connection with the plot. Which I doubt since even the Shepard reveival was sorta controversay.

[-Skorpious-]

With the exception of Mordin, none of the ME2 squadmates advanced the plot beyond providing Shepard with additional firepower. The same can be said for Wrex, Garrus, Ashley, and Kaidan in the original - they were there just to be there.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 25 novembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[Elite Midget]

Actually, Ashley/Kaiden, Liara, and Tali were all very important to the ME1 Plot. Garrus and Wrex(And he could die as well) not so much since you could miss them somewhat. Don't know how anyone could but people have.



While the ME2 Squadies were... Underwhelming. Maybe it's because Bioware took a backseat on the Story and instead turned it into a baby sitting simulator. That and they didn't feel all that connected to fighting the Collectors outside of Mordin and the fact that they can all die just like Wrex.

[Ieldra]

Miranda brought Shepard back from the dead. Without her, there wouldn't even be a "Shepard vs. the Collectors" plot. How about that for being connected to the plot?



Unfortunately, that means nothing for ME3. If they'll find it necessary to remove old team members, they'll find a reason to. If they deem them sufficiently important to have them return in a significant capacity, within the team or not, they'll do that too. All we can do is wait.



BTW, I reject the claim that the ME2 team is underwhelming. They are every bit as interesting as the ME1 team (OK, I admit Wrex is way more interesting than Grunt), in some cases more so - I couldn't care less about Garrus and Tali - only there are too many of them, so you can't built a connection to them all. You never get the impression you have a tightly focused team.

[Wittand25]

Many of the ME2 squad can be easily removed from the team in the time between ME2 and ME3.
Tali mentions that an exile is not permanent and can be revoked if the need should arise. Considering that she is the expert on Geth it is not farfetched that the Flotilla will call her back when they try to reclaim their home world and that she will answer the call, no matter how her relationship with Sheppard actually is.
A loyal Grunt can be called back to the clan, a disloyal leave on his own because there was not enough fighting going on.
Thane is dying and will want to spend some time with his son, even if he romanced Sheppard.
Samara has her duties, her daughter her desires to fulfill both can do that far better if they decide to leave the ship instead of staying with Sheppard.
Jack if not loyal will leave as soon as she gives up hope on Sheppard giving her what she wants, if she is loyal she will run because she gets scared by the closeness to Sheppard.
Mordin is a scientist and quite old so he would be more useful working in a laboratory than running behind Sheppard.
Miranda, Garrus, Legion and Jacob are harder to come up with reasons to leave without knowing the exact setting of ME3, but it is still possible

Sheppard can meet some of the ME2 crew in ME3 and get special dialog reflecting the players action in the past two games (Tali, Mordin,..) other Me2 crew might simply send him a message (romanced/loyal Jack, Samara, ...) and some might only turn up as part of a newscast (not loyal Jack).And off course every former squad member gets a mention in the epilogue. This way you have a big emotional payoff for relatively small resource investment.

I hope that the squad gets downsized for ME3, because a big squad combined with the fact that you can only take two at any time with you on missions means that the player is only seeing a small part of all possible interactions making them a bad resource investment and leads to the situation we have in ME2, where squad members barely recognize each others existence.

[vinak]

am speculating whether they will return to being squad mates/ship crew. not whether or not they will make an appearance in ME3. Also am assuming all listed members are alive/loyal

Ashley/Kaiden - depends on choices.paragon/renegade/romance
Garrus - depends on choices.paragon/renegade/romance
Liara - unlikely due to plot. but romance complicated this
Wrex - unlikely
Tali - depends on choices.paragon/renegade/romance

Grunt - will probably follow you everywhere.
Jack - depends on choices.paragon/renegade/romance.
Jacob - depends on choices.paragon/renegade/romance
Miranda - not sure. Cerberus/sister/romance complicates her.
Kasumi - probably not.
Legion - probably returned to Geth space.
Mordin - probably "retired" by now, or "working" on genophage.
Morinth - might have gotten bored with Shepard by this point.
Samara - possibly
Thane - dead
Zaeed - possibly if you rehire him.

Kelly - died from scale itch complications (kidding)
EDI - likely
Chakwas - likely
Joker- likely (cause he can't walk) :innocent:

Modifié par vinak, 25 novembre 2010 - 10:11 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

With regards me mentioning Liara and VS being Temp Squad member... EDI, tell him...

EDI: That was a joke.

With regards me mentioning how Liara can be avoided in ME2 and for some people was a redundant squadmate/NPC who just said "Ilos" in ME to move the plot forwards, that wasn't. Funny how you seem to fail to grasp how basically put just because someone WILL be in ME3 doesn't mean to say they have to be given outright default squad membership.

One of the main reasons VS and Liara was given cameo was for them to survive to ME2 and I think partially Bioware was hoping a fair number of people would 'cheat' on their ME LI so that they could add the whole 'lovers rivalry' in ME3 (the latter is just my opinion but I feel it was heavily hinted by Casey pre-ME2 launch).

The way people keep using Wrex as an example of expendable makes me laugh as it shows none of you are paying attention to the fact talking to Wrex is different than talking to Wreav in ME2. The fact that Shep asks Wrex if he'll join and Wrex gives his reason, again... plot armor.

As a lot of people are summarising, ME3 is most likely going to be all about getting the various races together to fight the Reapers, so what better than an old Krogan ally being there to help get the krogan clans united and join Shep in one big battle?

Going back to Wrex being cameo in ME2 and not taking up the request by Shepard, this was just like with the other 2, so that he could be in ME3.

There is NO ME4 as far as Shep's story is concerned thus no reason for the most ardent Shep supporting squadmates to say no.

That and as I say again, if it were the case, there would be no need for the line Samara throws to Paragon Shep post-suicide mission. Yes out of all the squadmates she is the most obvious to jump ship when opportunity arises but its also obvious she could be another 'optional' squadmate in ME3. Course it would be interesting to see what her reaction would be if Renegade Shep goes looking for her, am imagining a fight would ensue.

With regards ME2 squadmates and their importance in the plot. Well Miranda and Jacob are the Ash and Kaiden of ME2, so there is their importance and Mordin helps us with upgrades and also of course with the thing on Horizon that stops us being detected by the seeker swarms. Yes they all could be killed but that doesn't change their importance, also to remember that Shep needs 2 squadmates alive to get out of the suicide mission, The fact is there most likely is going to be a new Ash/Miranda and Kaiden/Jacob in ME3, the previous 2 games point to that even my default ME3 Shep idea does, seeing as Miranda and Jacob are the only 2 LIs to survive that, so them + the VS (always opposite sex to Shep) and Liara = 3 LIs per Shep.

Going back to Samara and Wrex, to some extent I see Samara being like Wrex. In that if you recruited her, did her loyalty mission and she survives, she is 'there if needed'. If you don't recruit her or did and she isn't loyal, then you don't see her in ME3 as she is probably still off searching for her daughter. Likewise with Wrex if you didn't recruit him, I've always presumed him dead but he could just be off somewhere as bounty hunter.

Going through the list of other 'ME2 squadmates you didn't have to recruit'
Grunt - if left in lifepod, am going to assume either taken for examination and/or died in the lifepod due to Normandy possibly getting hit by something that knocked the power out.
Legion - If not activated, same as Grunt, if sent Cerberus, well, we know what could happen there
Thane - He admits to Shep that had Shep not been there, he didn't expect to survive getting out of Nassana's place alive, so dead drell
Tali - If she somehow made it off Haestrom, I'll go all Udina on Bioware "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!" pretty much both her and Kal realised they were in a tight spot with not much chance of getting off alive. If Shep didn't make it to Kal when he did, he would have eventually died and then the Geth could totally turn their attention on where Tali was and she'd end up dead.
Zaeed - still being a bad ass bounty hunter, probably would've got himself killed going after Vito alone, but possibly could still be optional in ME3 for defaults or people that didn't recruit him
Kasumi - Like a moth to a flame she probably would still have gone after the greybox and thus thanks to not having someone as talented as Shep helping her, ended up dead. But again could be another optional for defaults or people that didn't recruit her

I could go through the possibilities of what happens if did recruit them and they survive, but they've been done to death by others and most of the ideas are good ones.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Tali and Garrus have already proved that theory wrong.

Tali and Garrus proved only one thing: non-killable ME1 squadmates can return as squadmates in the next game. Now is Liara's and VS's turn.

Oh please don't lower yourself to the childish like intelligence that I've seen of some of the other 'MEsquadmate who didn't return in ME2 as squadmate' fans. Especially as you keep claiming to not be one.

What I really find funny is that I know a lot of those fans actually killed off Garrus and Tali in their ME2 playthroughs (as shown in the 'science' topic) so for them to argue about them coming back is laughable considering that in their playthrough if they import, neither of them will be. Hell I even know one of those fans who went and killed all the ME2 LIs in a playthrough because they despised the fact people got to pick other LIs than their ME ones and they didn't get to have no sexy time with theirs.

The whole "It's only fair that Garrus and Tali don't return whilst Ash and VS do so that its 2 games each" statement makes me really wonder how old people who come up with such nonsense really are. Like I said... childish.

Also technically, Liara HAS been a squadmate in ME2 in LotSB, so by that regard she shouldn't be back in ME3 as a squadmate by that idea. Likewise am going to guess VS will get similar treatment in an upcoming DLC.

"Well thats all that Tali and Garrus should get in ME3! Just a 'post-ending' mission for some sweet short good stuff."

Oh really? Put it this way, if the Garrus and Tali fans wanted to stoop to such a childish statement, they could easily argue that Liara and VS should not only be 'optional' (seeing as they weren't in ME, but Garrus was in ME and Tali was in ME2) but also both be killable. Although am going to hazard a guess all squadmates may be killable in ME3 seeing as there is no ME4 as far as Shep's story goes and so one of the endings could be everyone dying.

I have to say Zulu to see you coming out with such a childish comment about the whole VS+Liara and Tali+Garrus thing surprises me, I've always thought you better than that.

Oh.

Childish or not such a sentiment does exist within a portion of fans, so it's not beyond me to take into consideration, on top of everything else. And it's no more childish than statements like "All LIs will be back because they are LIs, and LIs have to return no matter what". So consider the two arguments mutually canceled.

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

The fact is there most likely is going to be a new Ash/Miranda and Kaiden/Jacob in ME3

Seeing how sex with aliens has been introduced in ME2, I seriously see no obstacle for Feron to be "the dude" and Liara to be "the chick" (even though she is supposed to be bisexual and is stuck at the TSB's base for the moment).

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Tali - If she somehow made it off Haestrom, I'll go all Udina on Bioware "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!"

To support this notion of yours that "not recruited" = "dead" there is a minor bug in ME2: If Garrus is killed in the "suicide mission", and you go to Omega and Hock's party, the game (news announcement and NPC chatter) behaves as if the mercs were still laying siege to Archangel.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 novembre 2010 - 12:00 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The question is, why should we accommodate newcomers in lieu of the already established fanbase?

Except it is not a question. They ARE going to accommodate the newcomers. They ARE going to cater to new, as of yet untapped market segments. This isn't a question of what should BW do, its more a "this is what they are going to do, what now". They did this same thing in ME2 to the ME1 fans, they are doing it in DA2 to the DAO fans, they have already stated ME3 will be a standalone experience the same way ME2 was.

I don't think trying to predict what they will do (ie: what characters will be back) in ME3 based on the assumption that BW is going to cater to "established fans" is going to get you anywhere.

All that remains “untapped” is the FPS crowd and unless Bioware revamps and eliminates half the dialogue in ME3, they will ever appeal to that market. Not appealing to your established fanbase can result in significant backlash; especially should your design fail to impress the newly intended audience. ME2 hardly outsold its predecessor according to statistics and demand is exceptional that characters return in an active and engaging role. The only evidence we have to support this notion is the standalone mention and we cannot conclude whether or not it will function similar to what was ME2. DA2 is a poor explain due to it being a Final Fantasy-esque sequel. There is no direct continuality amidst the two and you play an entirely different character.

Whether or not Bioware attempts to cater to a new audience completely remains to be seen. In the event they do, I wish them well because there will be ramifications in terms of sales. I all but guarantee it. Talk to Square Enix and their recent releases that have split the fanbase since Final Fantasy X.

Elite Midget wrote...

It is sadism since it would effect Game Balance, Plot Progression, Max Squad Size, and fail to have the Squadies become more connected to the plot since they all can die in a previous game. Thus Bioware wont be able to give them any where near enough relevance to the ME2 Zombies since it would cause plotholes, inconsistencies, and the fact that not everyone would have the same surviving Squadies.

It's pretty much a waste of time trying to weave the ME2 Zombies into the plot as Squadies for ME3 since it would only end up alienateing new and old fans(Would get angry their ME2 Zombie didn't make it to ME3 or that their ME2 Zombie didn't say much of anything at all) which is something Bioware has said they wanted to avoid hence the PS3 ME2 getting that Comic instead of a shoddy port. That and they will care if they find out that they start out with less Squadies and get less Max Squadies than an importer which would ruin Game Balance as a whole.

Bioware would gain so much more trying to accomodate newcomers than trying to appease old and louder fans(Especially the Talimancers) because they want their ME2 Zombies back in their Squad despite ME3 taking place more than a year later. Besides, if Bioware 'wanted' to ME2 Squadies back thanthey would have given them a VS scenario so that they would be alive in every save for ME3. Bioware didn't. Instead they op'd for the Wrex Scenerio conserning the Suicide Mission.

Finally...

Those new to ME and never played ME1 weren't punished that severely in Default ME2. They missed Cameo's and extra dialouge but nothing as extreme as less max Squadies.

Ironically, the squad in ME2 had virtually no direct impact upon the plot in ME2 either, yet their existence will somehow amount to improbable plotholes and relevance qualms in the conclusion of the series? It is entirely feasible they have a role within the plot provided it is either specific to them or designed in such a meticulous manner that the presentation does not belie the conclusion. For example, say we must acquire some form of Reaper technology. Such could be an interchangeable mission in terms of plot integrity, whereas in one scenario, Garrus is the central focus, yet his absence would shift importance to Tali, all whilst maintaining that aforementioned plot integrity. A more specific example would depict Tali and the Geth. If she perished in the suicide mission, our confrontation with the Quarian may be radically altered, wherein there is disdain and mistrust, yet the result would ultimately remain unchanged. What would be altered had Tali been alive is how we were received and the reactions of the Quarian people.

Game balance is only disrupted if the design structure is flawed or poorly managed. It is undeniable the squad in ME2 exhibited nigh identical roles, with this being all too apparent between Garrus and Zaeed. Thus, it is plausible balance will be constructed with a similar mindset. Case in point, if mechanics held similarities to Mass Effect, wherein the squad fulfilled the specified classes available to Shepard. Balance is essentially accomplished. I can already hear the rebuttal of “what if people killed off half the squad?” To this I state, what of it? Any loss greater than two is purely intentional or simply the result of that person’s refusal to pay any sort of attention to the game, therefore, it was their desire to experience less content with perhaps the belief it may offer hidden content otherwise obscured.

Once again, your scenario is incorrect. There is a comic for the PS3 crowd because they have no way to experience Mass Effect and subsequently import that Shepard into ME2. Furthermore, lack of principle roles has a significantly larger likelihood to alienate fans more so than if some squadmates received a greater degree of attention in comparison to others. How you surmise an entirely new cast would be a benefit is perplexing. The ramifications far outweigh any upside with the exception being if ME3 is streamlined to basic simplicity. If they accommodated these newcomers at the expense of their established fans and consequently lost said fans, what have they gained? If anything, not appeasing the existing fanbase would cite a greater loss.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 25 novembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

@Zulu

I agree, to think that just because some is an LI means they we will return is just as childish but oh wait that is one of the reasons the ME LIs were saved is it not? Don't get me wrong, one obvious flaw in the whole 'An ME2 LI has to return' is flawed by the fact that unlike the VS, the potential LI dies post-romance, whereas the only way to romance the VS was post-VS situation. But to say they will totally forget about a potentially living ME2 LI to the same sort of cameo as the ME LIs got in ME2 is stupid because of the aforementioned point that they got cameoed in such a fashion so they could return in the next game and there is no 'next game' after ME3.

Will they return as squadmates? Nope am not saying they definitly should. Far from it, that'd just be silly to make such an assumption.

As for 'Alien LI' considering you actually mention her in that sentence it is a bit laughable that you say it was ME2 that introduced 'Alien LI' when it was actually ME that did that and I did mention Liara in that sentence with regard the 2 other LIs and her. Actually now you got me thinking about that, you just made me realise the number of potential LIs went up by 1 in ME2 from having 2 to 3, so my idea has even more backing in the fact that ME3 could have 4 potential LIs (VS, ME2 LI/Survivor, Liara and new squadmate) ok so unless they do a Tali/Garrus on a couple of the ME2-NonLI squaddies one of them choices is going to be missing possibly for some people. Hmm, Grunt as LI.... "Shepard is my Battlemaster, she is my everything..." *starts having flashbacks of the Jacob LI and how Jennifer Hale spoke during Jacob convos* FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS MASS EFFECT NO! No Grunt LI in ME3 please, we don't want a Krogan version of Barry White

Though of course Samara did say "In another time, another place..." well.... time has moved on and we'll possibly be in another place

I agree that Feron could be a candidate but so could Kolyat as straight replacement for Thane... "Empathy always wins!" (even if you don't bodge his loyalty mission up) "I'm an Assassin, like my father before me..." Ok... Kolyat is NOT Luke Skywalker I know but still... it could be possible. Course it would make a Thane LI FemShep into Chianna though (Chianna dating D'Argo then his son)

I also think that maybe 4 potential human LIs maybe a bit too much and whilst I obviously patterned the new LI squadmate into the Ash/Miri, Kai/Jacob bracket I never said they had to be human

I never said 'Not recruited' = 'dead', if you look at the list I made, some of them are still potentially alive. The only ones I said are most likely dead are the ones where it makes sense that they are.

Going back to Thane, "It was to be my last mission" *pauses* "I'm dying" Yeah I know ya gonna jump all over this line, it's main reason why Thane fans are hoping there is DLC where they can convince him to get medical treatment to fix the situation. But the fact is, if you didn't recruit him, he is as good as dead. No Shep there to help him, he'd probably have died in a blaze of glory trying to get out of Nassana's tower.

You can't use Garrus as evidence because he was recruited, I was only talking of those that weren't and obviously it can't 'give any notion' of the non-recruits status post-suicide because players can still recruit them and I doubt any of the 'Bridging DLCs' will leave it at a point where you can't continue to play/can't recruit anyone else. I might be wrong though.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

As for 'Alien LI' considering you actually mention her in that sentence it is a bit laughable that you say it was ME2 that introduced 'Alien LI' when it was actually ME that did that and I did mention Liara in that sentence with regard the 2 other LIs and her.

OK, Sir Ulrich, chalk yourself a point! Liara (& other Asari) are way too much "un-alien" in their looks, so I was admittedly referring only to Feron.

But really, in ME1 Asari were established to be the only race capable of such a thing and it was sort of their unique feature. So I was OK with that. ME2 made it possible for "everybody love everybody", and that made me mad, as it insults the basics of biology, psychology and any other dull science out there.

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Actually now you got me thinking about that, you just made me realise the number of potential LIs went up by 1 in ME2 from having 2 to 3, so my idea has even more backing in the fact that ME3 could have 4 potential LIs

 
As much as I appreciate  the patterns, one can't put much faith into a pattern being drawn up from only two instances.

And I hope too much that they'll let that Parasini beer+kiss affair convert into something even more substatial in ME3, to get any deeper into the discussion of how the LIs will be handled...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

I never said 'Not recruited' = 'dead', if you look at the list I made, some of them are still potentially alive. The only ones I said are most likely dead are the ones where it makes sense that they are.

But it makes sense for all of them, even for those that are mandatory for recruitment (except maybe Jack who'd still be on ice, or on the run, on in a Cerberus lab). It also makes sense for BioWare to make it so that if you haven't recruited them in ME2, you don't ever hear of them in ME3, just like if you've got them killed in ME2... Although I still hope to hear some news on the Big Choices made during their loyalty missions, (especially Tali's and Mordin's ones).

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
You can't use Garrus as evidence because he was recruited, I was only talking of those that weren't and obviously it can't 'give any notion' of the non-recruits status post-suicide because players can still recruit them and I doubt any of the 'Bridging DLCs' will leave it at a point where you can't continue to play/can't recruit anyone else. I might be wrong though.

What I meant by that is that post- "suicide mission" the game treats dead Garrus as if he hasn't been recruited at all, only you can't re-recruit him, of course... However Emily Wong still reports the choice you've taken during Garrus' loyalty mission. So this fits well with my expectations for ME3 (see above).

But bugs are bugs, so I don't pretend that it's definitely it. Just speculate, as always. There is another bug like it: If you go to Tuchanka, unlock the "take the Tomkah to go to the Weirlock base" dialogue option with the Chief Scout, then go to Omega-4, kill off Mordin and return to Tuchanka, the dialogue option is still there. You can take it, trigger the loyalty mission, where to Mordin magically returns from the dead, complete it as usually, see Mordin back to hell and here you are. Plot flags rule.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 novembre 2010 - 03:12 .

[Xilizhra]

My vote, for preference if not necessarily for likelihood, is that ME3 goes the way of Dragon Age Awakenings and completely ignores squadmate death, assuming that everyone lived no matter what.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Elite Midget wrote...

Liara was a temp Squadie and wasen't part of the Suicide Mission which could have potientially killed her. If she had than I wouldn't be saying she has a higher chance to return as a Squadie. After all, you don't see any of us agueing that Wrex will return as a Squadie in ME3. Why? Because he could die in ME1. Liara and VS however are above those that are killable because of the fact that EVER SINGLE ME3 SAVE MUST HAVE THEM.

Also, FYI: All of the ME2 Zombies survived in my saves. Doesn't change the fact that they all 'could' die ala Wrex and none of them has to be alive in ME3.

Saying none of the Killables, where they aren't alive in all ME3 saves, will be recruitable in ME3 is downright genius.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Please note the non-sequitor in your post.  Having some of the squadies from ME2 does not, automatically, upset game balance, or anything else -- any more than having Tali and Garrus from ME1 upset anything in ME2  (well, it upset the people who hate them for no reason other than that someone else likes them, but that's not really part of the game itself). 


As for examples such as Thane, you'll please note that I did say that it would be a stretch to bring Thane back in ME3, and he's one of my favorite squadies from ME2.  As another example, I prefer Zaeed to Jacob, but I think it's more likely that we'll see Jacob back in ME3.


The funniest part of these discussions, however, is that those who want* the ME2 squadies to all go away (preferably by death in a fire, it seems) keep refering to them as "expendables", "zombies", and the like.  If your points about this were as strong as you like to think, you could just refer to them as characters, and leave it at that. 

*  Yes, WANT.   If it were just a matter of dry, cold analysis, we wouldn't see the firey, impassioned attempts at arguing that they'll be gone. 

Yes it does. Less Max Squadmates on the disc, the inability for Bioware to give 'any' of the ME2 Zombies any connection to the ME3 Plot as a Squadie because they're dead and it would ruin immersion into the Universe when the ME2 Zombies don't say anything regarding events. Remember Garrus and Tali on Horizon? Yeah, Bioware got a lot of backlash for that. Why would they risk even more backlash at an even grander scale? Not to mention that it would alienate new and old Gamers.

Thane isn't returning. His whole sub-plot in ME2 was him dieing and making peace with his son before passing away. If Bioware makes him suddenly alive and 100% well, despite him constantly stateing that he has less than a year to live as well as the fact that he outright refuses medical treatment, it would kill any meaning his dieing last wish had in ME2. It was Thane's thing after all and without it what does he have?

Jacob will return, if he still lives, but as a Cameo. No ifs, ands, or buts. Wrex is a perfect example of what they shall have done upon them.

It isn't what I want, it's what Bioware already had planned for the ME2 Zombies for ME3 hence why they all can die ala Wrex. Hell, Wrex had less situations of deing compared to some of the ME2 Zombies.

I already stated 'many' reasons in this thread why they won return. though if you want to be petty than I will give you one reason that you can't deny. Bioware made them 'expendable', a bunch of 'Zombies', and the like because Bioware had no plans to bring them back into Squadie status ala Wrex. We're just stateing what Bioware has already said through their actions.

Sure, sure, whatever.  Now you have an inside track on what Bioware has planned. 


And I'm pretty sure that Tali, at least, has something to say to the VS on Horizon.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 25 novembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[Flying-Jew]

Don't you think that since ME3 will be the final chapter, we will get recurring faces from both ME1 and ME2? I mean that's the point of the entire game, the entire galaxy coming together to fight the reapers. That's why the characters can have different reactions to your actions at the end of ME2. Because they will be back. :|

[-Skorpious-]

Why did Bioware opt for a suicide mission anyway? It failed to build upon Mass Effect's amazing ending, as a standalone story it was mediocre at best, and now everybody is up-in-arms over the fact that their favorite character may only be available/seen for less than 5% of the game.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if all the ME2 crew became important cameos except Garrus. As you can obviously tell from my signature, Garrus is my favorite character in the series. He is also (according to the latest ME2 statistics) among the most, if not the most, popular ME2 character(s) - worldwide.

Buuuut.... this is just me being selfish. =p

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 25 novembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Flying-Jew wrote...

Don't you think that since ME3 will be the final chapter, we will get recurring faces from both ME1 and ME2?

Yes. As cameos.

Flying-Jew wrote...
I mean that's the point of the entire game, the entire galaxy coming together to fight the reapers.

This is a fan theory, that has even less circumstantial evidence than my "Cerbeus is still part of the Alliance" theory. At least, I never saw any sign of the Galaxy willing to or being capable of coming united against the Reapers.

Flying-Jew wrote...
That's why the characters can have different reactions to your actions at the end of ME2. Because they will be back. :|

As cameos.

[Zulu_DFA]

-Skorpious- wrote...

He is also (according to the latest ME2 statistics) among the most, if not the most, popular ME2 character(s) worldwide.

He is most used on missions because he is recruited early in the game and has the most useful weaponry AR+SR. Plus the most useful ammo power for non-soldier class players. That's it. Doesn't really mean he is the most loved as a character. Admittedly, he is among the most popular.

But LotSB dossier on him kinda foreshadows, that he might start his own enterprise yet again in ME3, if alive.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Elite Midget]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Ironically, the squad in ME2 had virtually no direct impact upon the plot in ME2 either, yet their existence will somehow amount to improbable plotholes and relevance qualms in the conclusion of the series? It is entirely feasible they have a role within the plot provided it is either specific to them or designed in such a meticulous manner that the presentation does not belie the conclusion. For example, say we must acquire some form of Reaper technology. Such could be an interchangeable mission in terms of plot integrity, whereas in one scenario, Garrus is the central focus, yet his absence would shift importance to Tali, all whilst maintaining that aforementioned plot integrity. A more specific example would depict Tali and the Geth. If she perished in the suicide mission, our confrontation with the Quarian may be radically altered, wherein there is disdain and mistrust, yet the result would ultimately remain unchanged. What would be altered had Tali been alive is how we were received and the reactions of the Quarian people.

Game balance is only disrupted if the design structure is flawed or poorly managed. It is undeniable the squad in ME2 exhibited nigh identical roles, with this being all too apparent between Garrus and Zaeed. Thus, it is plausible balance will be constructed with a similar mindset. Case in point, if mechanics held similarities to Mass Effect, wherein the squad fulfilled the specified classes available to Shepard. Balance is essentially accomplished. I can already hear the rebuttal of “what if people killed off half the squad?” To this I state, what of it? Any loss greater than two is purely intentional or simply the result of that person’s refusal to pay any sort of attention to the game, therefore, it was their desire to experience less content with perhaps the belief it may offer hidden content otherwise obscured.

Once again, your scenario is incorrect. There is a comic for the PS3 crowd because they have no way to experience Mass Effect and subsequently import that Shepard into ME2. Furthermore, lack of principle roles has a significantly larger likelihood to alienate fans more so than if some squadmates received a greater degree of attention in comparison to others. How you surmise an entirely new cast would be a benefit is perplexing. The ramifications far outweigh any upside with the exception being if ME3 is streamlined to basic simplicity. If they accommodated these newcomers at the expense of their established fans and consequently lost said fans, what have they gained? If anything, not appeasing the existing fanbase would cite a greater loss.

Too much work for too little gain. Do you even consider how hard it would be to do stuff like that for every dead ME2 Characters? Especially when Bioware can simply make a new Squad(+living Characters in all saves) and have a person in that Squad be the sole focus of the mission which would give the mission better misson flow, plot progression, game balance, and have the character more involved with the story vs every ME2 Zombie saying the same thing, not all of them being alive in evey save, and finally having no way of truely intergrateing them in the plot since it would be a waste of resources since not all users have those characters alive which would mean that miss out on too much content which is something that Bioware wants to avoid.

Besides, you can easily do those things at a much smaller costs by making those Cameo Events and keeping the ME2 Zombies out of the ME3 Squad.


You don't know if it's intentional or not. Some gamers don't like doing sidequests and they might have ignored a majority of the Loyalty missions, especially for characters they found boring. Than there are those that pick the wrong characters for the wrong parts in Suicide Mission. Should they be punished because they weren't hooked onto the Babysitting Sidequests for the large Squadie Size or that they didn't look at a guide? Sure, they should be punished somewhat but they shouldn't be punished gameplay-wise or balance-wise for ME3 just because of what they did or didn't do in ME2. Especially when you consider default saves. How would Bioware handle that? Make everyone dead except Tali and Garrus because of the current fanbase even though all those using the default save are most likely new gamers to the seie and could care less that Tali and Garrus somehow survived being dead?

Than there's the thing where Bioware wants every entry of the series to be complete and standalone experiences. Such as how no ME2 Default save was penalized Gameplay-wise or Balance-wise nor were those that killed Wrex or whichever VS they recruited or if they missed anything or not in the first game. The only penality they received was missing cameo's and e-mails. Outside of that ME2 was Complete and Standalone just as Bioware wanted.


Bioware has hinted that the whinny ones on the 360/PC may end up getting the Comic as well despite being able to get ME1 or having already beatened ME1 multiple times. Anyway, tell that to Thane fans who's character had the same amount of chances, hell he even had less than certian characters like Samara, or dieing in the suicide mission yet he wont ever return because of his illness. Yet those same fans should be 100% content with watching Tali and Garrus return despite them having the same chances of dieing in the suicide mission? It would cause an uproar and many angry fans would scream favortism and that Bioware lacked the backbone to follow through with their game design which had every ME2 Zombie have a chance of dieing ala Wrex.

A new Cast(+living characters in every save) would make the game a complete standalone experience(Minus cameos), would make the plot more endearing, would better connect the Squadies with the plot(Since every save must have them), would make balancing far easier on Biowares part, and would ensure that the majority of the content on the disc is available to all owners of ME3 whether they imported or not.

Bioware has shown that they aren't afraid of alienateing stubborn fans if it means they can make a better game with a better story. Such as Bioware ditching the Warden completely in DA2 and giving the bird to ME1 owners who wanted their Squad to return but instead were met with a much larger newer Squad with Tali and Garrus thrown in since people wanted them as LIs. Though as compensation Bioware was quick to state that they kept Ashley/Kaiden and Liara out because they wanted them still around for ME3. Which was somewhat forshadowing to the fact that Bioware decided to make every ME2 Squadie killable ala Wrex. Which shows that Bioware never planned for any of them to return to Squadie Status for ME3 annd instead Bioware has other plans for them outside Shepard's Squad.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Xilizhra wrote...

My vote, for preference if not necessarily for likelihood, is that ME3 goes the way of Dragon Age Awakenings and completely ignores squadmate death, assuming that everyone lived no matter what.

But why make your characters killable then? What's the point if that's going to happen? That'd just cheapen the experience. This game was also about making decisions.

[-Skorpious-]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

He is also (according to the latest ME2 statistics) among the most, if not the most, popular ME2 character(s) worldwide.

He is most used on missions because he is recruited early in the game and has the most useful weaponry AR+SR. Plus the most useful ammo power for non-soldier class players. That's it. Doesn't really mean he is the most loved as a character. Admittedly, he is among the most popular.

You have to take into account that (yes, I feel safe saying this) most people decide who to bring along on missions based upon their feelings of the character rather than their usefulness in combat. My brother does this, my friends do this, and to a large extent I do this. Miranda is easily the most useful squadmate in the game, but I choose Garrus over her because I like Garrus' character more.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But LotSB dossier on him kinda foreshadows, that he might start his own enterprise yet again in ME3, if alive.

I assumed his "trip" was Shepard's attack on the Collector Base, where he forshadowed his potentially high likelihood of death in the "suicide mission".

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OK, Sir Ulrich, chalk yourself a point! Liara (& other Asari) are way too much "un-alien" in their looks, so I was admittedly referring only to Feron.

But really, in ME1 Asari were established to be the only race capable of such a thing and it was sort of their unique feature. So I was OK with that. ME2 made it possible for "everybody love everybody", and that made me mad, as it insults the basics of biology, psychology and any other dull science out there.

Ok point taken

As for the 'everybody loves everybody' Love doesn't equal Sex and having a FemShep love Garrus or a crazy Quarian love a human even though they can't reproduce and attempting any such sort of 'loving' connection could be fatal doesn't insult psychology either. Love is a many splendour thing, love lifts us up where we belong, all you need is love (stops self from going into the 'Elephant Medley' from 'Moulin Rouge'). Love can cross all boundaries like two star crossed lovers both... (stops self from doing the opening speel of Romeo and Juliet). I rest my case on the matter. Granted I can understand how it might ****** some people off, but then am a romantic, so am glad to see that Bioware haven't stuck to some silly principals with regards biology (which at the end of the day is the only real 'science' that could put up a real stumbling block in the LI situation IMHO).

Zulu_DFA wrote...
As much as I appreciate  the patterns, one can't put much faith into a pattern being drawn up from only two instances.

And I hope too much that they'll let that Parasini beer+kiss affair convert into something even more substatial in ME3, to get any deeper into the discussion of how the LIs will be handled...

I couldn't agree more on that about patterns, so you can have a point back there, I did think about it when I was coming to my 'pattern conclusions' but just scrubbed it out, besides, didn't you use a similar idea the other day about how the squadmates size has to grow bigger due to the previous games? If what you've said up above is anything to go by, surely that is not the case and we could be back down to a squad of 6 overall.

As for Parasini, well, to some extent Parasini is in a worse state than the ME2 squadmates are because she could be killed off in ME. Same goes for Shiala who also shows an interest in Shep. Don't get me wrong, I too would like to see it develop and not just be some sort of silly 'bonus' to show MaleShep being such a 'Ladies Man'. The thing is, I think that the Parasini situation is a perfect example of how the LIs could be handled it just depends on the individuals though, some LIs I can easily see desk-jockeyed whilst others I can't.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But it makes sense for all of them, even for those that are mandatory for recruitment (except maybe Jack who'd still be on ice, or on the run, on in a Cerberus lab). It also makes sense for BioWare to make it so that if you haven't recruited them in ME2, you don't ever hear of them in ME3, just like if you've got them killed in ME2... Although I still hope to hear some news on the Big Choices made during their loyalty missions, (especially Tali's and Mordin's ones).

What I meant by that is that post- "suicide mission" the game treats dead Garrus as if he hasn't been recruited at all, only you can't re-recruit him, of course... However Emily Wong still reports the choice you've taken during Garrus' loyalty mission. So this fits well with my expectations for ME3 (see above).

But bugs are bugs, so I don't pretend that it's definitely it. Just speculate, as always. There is another bug like it: If you go to Tuchanka, unlock the "take the Tomkah to go to the Weirlock base" dialogue option with the Chief Scout, then go to Omega-4, kill off Mordin and return to Tuchanka, the dialogue option is still there. You can take it, trigger the loyalty mission, where to Mordin magically returns from the dead, complete it as usually, see Mordin back to hell and here you are. Plot flags rule.

Ahh the nice little bugs that you can exploit post-suicide. Yup I've had fun playing all of them at some point. Mordin's isn't the only one, you can do it with Garrus too if you get to the bit where you need to get a cab after seeing the Volus and also Samara's when going into the club (though don't think you can then choose Morinth and cause a serious glitch). Never stuck with a save with that bug used, just did it for testing purposes hehe.

As for not hearing of non-recruits, yeah it does make sense from a ME3 PoV, course if we don't see them either then it does kind of leave you wondering what did happen to them. Like I said, I've always assumed Wrex is still dead on the grounds he got into some fight as bounty hunter and died. BUT the thing is, going on a default Shep PoV they've already set the bar with regards ME2 Squadmates fates if they are dead with Wrex. Because Default ME2 Shep did recruit Wrex and did kill him off. Likewise he is questioned about the Virmire sacrifice (and of course Chakwas talks of Kaiden, can't remember if she mentions Ash?), so there will be some reference to the dead ME2 squadmates that went on the suicide mission if they stick to how they progressed so far. Whether it just be an email sent to you or some scene you get involved with.

With regards big choices, it'll certainly be interesting to see what (if any) choices PS3 owners will be able to make in the comic. I say 'if any' because there is the side of me that doesn't want to get my hopes up and is just going to assume that 'interactive' is just because it's an online comic and thus we have to 'interact' to turn the pages over and we'll just see the choices made. Course I'll be happy as larry if we do get to alter some of the 'default' choices, but I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed, so like I say am not 'assuming' anything of the comic just yet. Anyway I digress to some extent, I too hope that squadmate death doesn't cancel out choices made in their missions. My only concern is that some decisions might be totally ignored as if the person didn't even do the quest. Case in point not handing Tali the Geth data over but actually doing that quest didn't give us any chance to say "Oh look its the one person I really did hope I'd seen the back of! Oh well, least you left my ship once the mission with Saren was over like promised." or maybe "Yes it's me, you know the person who refused to give you that Geth data and you threw your rattle out of the pram because of it. Now, what are you doing here?!"[/i] (would sooo love to hear Jennifer Hale say the latter ). Ok I know that example was a 'sidequest' but considering people who did give her the data got something from it, it seems silly that they didn't put a flag in for those who did get the data but didn't give it to tali AND even rubbed it in her face

Extras should not just be thrown at Paragons feet. I would like to see the fruits of my renegades labours too (though I spose finding out that killing that eclipse Asari could be considered a nice extra whilst paragons got to facepalm for being so silly to let her go )

[Elite Midget]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Sure, sure, whatever.  Now you have an inside track on what Bioware has planned. 


And I'm pretty sure that Tali, at least, has something to say to the VS on Horizon.

Don't need an insider to understand Bioware's intentions.

Examples of trends that support my suspicions.

DA: O
DA: A -> New Party Members with little to no mention of any of the old ones!
DA2 -> New Main Characters and no return Zombies from DA:O/A.

ME1
ME2->Cameo's for most of the ME1 cast and dead Squadie doesn't return outside of an even shorter Cameo.

Wrex->Doesn't have to survive ME1 thus got a very short cameo.
ME2 Zombies->None have to survive ME2 thus get very short cameo's.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:47 .

[Zulu_DFA]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

He is also (according to the latest ME2 statistics) among the most, if not the most, popular ME2 character(s) worldwide.

He is most used on missions because he is recruited early in the game and has the most useful weaponry AR+SR. Plus the most useful ammo power for non-soldier class players. That's it. Doesn't really mean he is the most loved as a character. Admittedly, he is among the most popular.

You have to take into account that (yes, I feel safe saying this) most people decide who to bring along on missions based upon their feelings of the character rather than their usefulness in combat. My brother does this, my friends do this, and to a large extent I do this. Miranda is easily the most useful squadmate in the game, but I choose Garrus over her because I like Garrus' character more.

Tell that to the 10% of people who played ME2 yet never bothered to go down and flush Grunt out of his tank.

-Skorpious- wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But LotSB dossier on him kinda foreshadows, that he might start his own enterprise yet again in ME3, if alive.

I assumed his "trip" was Shepard's attack on the Collector Base, where he forshadowed his potentially high likelihood of death in the "suicide mission".

I meant TSB's own note on Garrus' never coming to full potential so long as he stays under Shepard.

[Flying-Jew]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Flying-Jew wrote...

Don't you think that since ME3 will be the final chapter, we will get recurring faces from both ME1 and ME2?

Yes. As cameos.

Flying-Jew wrote...
I mean that's the point of the entire game, the entire galaxy coming together to fight the reapers.

This is a fan theory, that has even less circumstantial evidence than my "Cerbeus is still part of the Alliance" theory. At least, I never saw any sign of the Galaxy willing to or being capable of coming united against the Reapers.

Flying-Jew wrote...
That's why the characters can have different reactions to your actions at the end of ME2. Because they will be back. :|

As cameos.

Why as cameos? If they went through the trouble of fleshing out such a distinct cast of characters, why would they just go away. I would whole heartedly agree with you if ME3 would have been coming out early-mid 2011, but it's scheduled for late 2012 window. Wouldn't it give the developers time to arrange (almost) every squaddie to be recruitable and fit within the story?

As for the galaxy coming together, I was really talking about the Rachni, Krogan, Migrant Fleet, (maybe cerberus) and your old and new squad grouping together.