762 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

You know those people you didn't need to recruit to finish ME2? Grunt (still in tank), Kasumi, Zaeed, Legion, etc. They were not vital to finish the story but still had their place in most missions.



It shouldn't be difficult to give popular characters like Garrus, Tali and Wrex a role similar to that in ME3. That is a incentive to their numerous fans to buy it. It is also a reward for people who have bought the previous games and made the effort to keep them alive. If you didn't save everyone and did kill Wrex, too bad for you. It is not hard to keep everyone alive. These possible extra crewmates is also a incentive for newcommers to ME to buy the two first games. Also the dissapointment of fans who won't see their favourites return will make the game less marketable.



So as far as I can see it is possible and potentialy profitable to include old squadmates in ME3. At least a few of them.



But of course we wont know for sure untill ME3 so it would be immature and silly of me to say that this is how it have be.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

In my humble opinion, it's a hard fact, that ...

Hard implies backed-up, and fact implies something that is 100% true. I respect your opinion, but it isn't a hard fact.

I'll go ahead and give you a piece of advice before you waste any more precious time with Zulu, he believes that his personal opinion is irrefutable - that it is in fact sufficient evidence to back up his erroneous conclusions. Don't waste your time arguing with him because he is so incredibly stubborn that he should win an award. 

-Polite

[Zulu_DFA]

All ME2 squadmates had vital part in the plot because the ME2's plot was about squadmates. BioWare said so themselves.



The ME3's plot needs to be about a plot, not about the ME2 squadmates, so, Adios muchachos!

[luakel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

All ME2 squadmates had vital part in the plot because the ME2's plot was about squadmates. BioWare said so themselves.

The ME3's plot needs to be about a plot, not about the ME2 squadmates, so, Adios muchachos!

Who says plot and squadmates are mutually exclusive? Squadmates are just there so you have 1) some extra powers and another gun to use in combat, 2) people to talk to between missions, and 3) potential romance options. Some of them can be important to moving the plot forward (Tali, Liara, Mordin), that doesn't mean the ones that aren't are holding the plot back. They're just there, essentially as world building. And if some of the characters are more popular than others, the only reason not to bring them back is if they're hurting the plot somehow.

I don't see how this would happen. If Garrus comes back, you get some conversations with him aboard the ship, some snarky comments from him while on missions, possibly some extra content if he was romanced. Ditto with Tali. Just because they're back as squadmates doesn't keep the plot from advancing at all, because they're irrelevant to the plot. Tali might get some extra lines while you're dealing with the Quarian/Geth situation, that's it. Having 2-4 people on your squad who might have died is not going to hinder the advancement of the plot. Like in ME2; if you didn't recruit Tali before the suicide mission, or kept Grunt in the tank, you still went to the Collector base and had the same choice as anyone else. None of the characters you recruited did anything to stop this. There's no reason to believe ME3 will be any different; you'll still follow the same basic plot no matter what, and the only characters that have drastic influence on the plot will be there no matter what as well.

All this means is that Grunt's probably not going to be sacrificing himself to destroy a Reaper in ME3, because he may not be there. But he can still be there and have dialogue with Shepard (though no character-specific loyalty missions, Shepard has bigger things to worry about), he can still fight at Shepard's side, and he could still get a mention in the epilogue, as long as you let him survive ME2. Same for the rest. It's just that all 12 returning would make for an awfully crowded Normandy, so BW will probably only bring back those who are 1) most popular, or 2) most likely to stay with Shepard in the story. And if they died, you just miss out on the content for that character, you don't get screwed over in the plot.

I guess the old characters could take up disk space that could be spent on plot missions, I don't know. That's why you'd only have a few and not all of them. But if they bring characters back, BW can point to that as a sign of both how they're maintaining continuity between games and how they listen to their fanbase. I doubt it would take too much space to code in Garrus as a squadmate that some people may not have alive if they carried over saves. Having him be an optional cameo could be just as consuming of time and space in its own way.

[lovgreno]

How about making old possibly dead (but probably alive for most players, fans and paying costumers) squadmembers free DLC? That way they wont take up any precious diskspace and those who don't want some or all of them (wich I suspect is a very small minority of paying costumers) don't have bother with dowloading.

Modifié par lovgreno, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:06 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

All ME2 squadmates had vital part in the plot because the ME2's plot was about squadmates. BioWare said so themselves.

The ME3's plot needs to be about a plot, not about the ME2 squadmates, so, Adios muchachos!

I see we're still in school for grammar and composition eh?  You'll get it one day. I have faith in you. 

-Polite

[Cyberfrog81]

I'm not convinced of... anything, really, but I recognize that it is possible that not a single one of the ME2 squad will be back as permanent squad members. I expect a few emails, some cameos, and hopefully the occasional temporary squad mate (like Liara in LotSB). Then when dealing with the turians, Garrus could be there; if dealing with the quarians, Tali could be there; if dealing with the krogan, again Grunt/Mordin could be there, and so on. You would still go wherever you need to, but it might not be as interesting without the familiar "guide".



Either way, some time will have passed between the events of ME2 and the start of ME3. Anything can happen.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

All ME2 squadmates had vital part in the plot because the ME2's plot was about squadmates. BioWare said so themselves.

The ME3's plot needs to be about a plot, not about the ME2 squadmates, so, Adios muchachos!

Non sequitor. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

luakel wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Can die != did die.

If someone was careless or sadistic enough to get a character killed in ME2, then they miss out on the content related to that character when they import that save to ME3. 

Simple as that, no "Zombie" required. 

And if they have alot of content, then they're alive in the default save too. This way the majority of players will get to see the content. The main complaint I can see against this is which characters would come back in such a way (since all 12 seems a logistical impossibility). Like, if Garrus comes back as a squadmate, the people who hate Garrus will complain that he gets to come back and gets alot of content, whereas, say, Zaeed only gets a email or cameo. I don't know if there's any way to avoid this, but there are certainly squadmates that less people would complain about than others.

I guess there's also the idea that none of the 12 can be plot essential because they're dead. But plot essential doesn't equal squadmate status. Mordin was the only one who directly contributed to the plot in ME2 (maybe Miranda, but that was pre-story). And the only loyalty missions that I can see having repercussions/followups in story would be Mordin's, Tali's, and Legion's (everything else was just personal issues, these 3 involved BIG CHOICES). So there's no reason to say that Mordin can't be a squadmate with lots of interaction for anyone who didn't let him die in their save, it's just that he can't majorly impact the plot without a substitute to fill in if he's not there.

Or, in saves where Tali didn't live, you lose the help of the Quarians.   In saves where Wrex and Grunt are both dead, you don't get the help of the Krogan.  Or maybe that's Mordin. 

And then all the people who thought it was "kewl" to kill off squadies can .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

I'm not convinced of... anything, really, but I recognize that it is possible that not a single one of the ME2 squad will be back as permanent squad members. I expect a few emails, some cameos, and hopefully the occasional temporary squad mate (like Liara in LotSB). Then when dealing with the turians, Garrus could be there; if dealing with the quarians, Tali could be there; if dealing with the krogan, again Grunt/Mordin could be there, and so on. You would still go wherever you need to, but it might not be as interesting without the familiar "guide".

Either way, some time will have passed between the events of ME2 and the start of ME3. Anything can happen.

You might be right. 

What's utterly unjustified is anyone pretending that they know that the ME2 squadmates won't be back.

[BlazePT]

Yeah, and about the LI?

[McBeath]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]McBeath wrote...
Either Zaeed is dead or alive, it doesn't matter what happened to Vido or the workers.
[/quote]
It does. Either Zaeed is more ruthless and relentless than ever, or he is a bit wussified guy who still has a debt to repay, but can't decide if he really should do it or not.
[/quote]

This is just utter nonsense.  He doesn't do that in ME2, why should he do that in ME3.  I don't need to know that Zaeed is 10% more bad*** than before, he's still a ruthless soldier for hire.  Even with Vido dead he would still retain all the things that makes his character unique. 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]McBeath wrote...
In ME1 Garrus has a personal quest, he doesn't bring it up again and again, it's just done and over with.
[/quote]
Bringing it up alI the time is not the point. It must be brought up once, though. And at other times the character must react slightly differently in different situations according to the previous experience and previously established relations with Shepard.

[/quote]

I'll only say this once... GARRUS ISN"T A REAL PERSON.  He doesn't have to act any differently... if it helps you can pretend that he's more mellowed out when he's relaxing on the Normandy, doing his calibrations.  While on mission he's still a professional, and will act as such. 

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]McBeath wrote...
There would be no need for Zaeed to be like "hey, remember that time we killed Vido.... good times Shep!".  His character won't stop being himself, there is no need for it.  He's not a real person that we'll be talking to over the course of a few months, our interactions with this fictional character in a video game are totally scripted.  It's almost like your trying to complicate this more than it needs to be....
[/quote]

So what's the point of having them back at all, if they are just bots?

Plus, as I've said, other characters might have more serious issues than Zaeed. Frakking Tali could be left with more sh*t on the way out of ME2, than she was supposed (and failed -- I mean the Geth data) to bring in. It would be simply a wallbanger if in ME3 she just rejoined as if nothing happened the team of Shepard, who had given away her father's sins. Samara promised to help Shepard if he was paragon, and fight him if he was renegade. Miranda could "quit Cerberus", or get furious with Sheprad for siding with Jack... etc.

[/quote]

Well, for starters people like them.  I like them, they add a little imersion to the story.  It makes more sense that Shepard has an established crew, and I like to see them develop as characters.  I don't treat this like some kind of friendship or dating sim.  Those characters allow us to explore different aspects of Shepard's character as a whole.

Tali would be interesting, and I could see this as a reason why she may leave.. though I don't just assume that instead of Tali your gonna get Kal or any other placeholder quarion(which is just crap).  Your actions will have consiquences, and that would be an extreme one, though I'll leave that up to the writers.  Characters like Miranda(who also is a professional) would hopefully move past that little fight and just work together towards the goal of defeating the Reapers.  People in every day life put up with people at work for a lot less than the survival of the human race, I'm sure these imaginary characters can do just that.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]McBeath wrote...

I'd love to see where Casey posted that little nugget. 
[/quote]
I won't dig up that stuff, but it was some Q&A session prior to the ME2 release where he explained why the ME1 LIs were "getting the shaft". Admittetly, he will have a harder time doing so in regards to the ME2 LIs... But I'm sure he'll manage.

[/quote]

Yeah, sure... I call shenanigans on that one.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]McBeath wrote...
He said there would be consiquences to our actions, nothing more.  Those(full time squadmates) do nothing plot wise, all they have is one liners and a dialog tree, so they could easily be included just as they are now. 
[/quote]
"Just as they are now" is BAD. To do it better the squamates need to dwindle in numbers, and that means they need to be changed.

[/quote]

Do it better?   I don't have a problem with how they did it now.  Again, your misgivings.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]McBeath wrote...
I rarely hear a damn thing from Samara for example.  In ME2 only Miranda, Jacob and Mordin had lines that were driving the plot...
[/quote]
And this is BAD.

[/quote]

How so?  In any structured enviroment there are leaders and followers.  Would it make sense if every time a squad of soldiers made a choice they all got around and talked about it?  NO, they instead have a command team(like the scientist, soldier and liason in ME2) that give input and advice.  It was well done and reflects how militaries and corporations work.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]McBeath wrote...
all Bioware has to do is assign those types of lines to either the VS or a few(as little as 1) new characters
[/quote]
Are you kidding? Casey Hudson said also that it will always be a part of BioWare's fun to cook up new characters. They made 6 new (naturally) squaddie-characters for ME1, 10 for ME2. And from that you think they'll go down to 1? Face it, 8 squadmates is about the optimal number. And that's about as much as they are going to make new in ME3. Add the ME2 "zombies" (I'm starting to like the term), and you'll get a squad of 15-20 CoD-like bots. Is this what the fans want?

[/quote]

Oh, here we go again... another magical Casey Hudson quote.  Great, how do I possibly argue with that!

It's the end of the story, the END.  It's not a new IP(like ME1), but the end.  It does mostly appeal to the previous fans and takes liberties that they'll have some understanding of the story thus far.   Instead of looking at it like a stand alone game I think it needs to be looked at like the final chapter or mission of a single game. 


[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]McBeath wrote...
The issue is you don't like the characters that way, you want more complex characters with more interaction...
[/quote]
Me and 92% of people.

[/quote]

92%?  Based on what, your polls?  What is the number of people registered here(and voting on your polls) compared to the number of copies sold?  I won't make up some arbitrary number, but I be it's not 92%.

Modifié par McBeath, 27 novembre 2010 - 01:53 .

[Pacifien]

Closed because the red panda thirsts for thread blood by OP request.

Modifié par Pacifien, 29 novembre 2010 - 02:28 .