762 réponses à ce sujet

[Nivenus]

If none of the ME1 or ME2 squad members are recruitable in ME3 I will, frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third time.

[Peppard]

Zulu_DFA wrote...    
ME2 was sort of flexible, since the main story was almost out of focus (Ah, "Reapers"...), and the squadmates got their showtime regardless. But ME3 has to meet both ends. The squadmates have to fit in the plot, and the high degree of their quality must be reached in the course of the main story progerssion.

 The squadmates have to fit in the plot, but they don't have to be central to it.  I'd argue that, for the most part,  in ME1, squad mates tended to appear with some new element to move along the plot, but after that, were kind of unnecessary.   Hi Tali...oh, you have evidence against Saren? Thanks, now wait in the hold until the game is done.   Say hi to Garrus, because he's waiting there too. What's that Liara? Ah yes, I'll take you out to kill your mother, THEN you can wait in the hold.  Thanks for sifting around in my mind to try to help me unlock the mystery, but you know,  I'll still need another 2 NPCs to really explain WTF  I saw, because you aren't an important enough character to carry that dialog apparently.

    Same thing in ME2...In terms of the main plot of "stopping the collectors", most of the heavy lifting was done by TIM and EDI far as exposition went.    Mordin had some storyline stuff too, but the rest of characters, endearing or annoying as they were, kind of could have been replaced by any of the other characters except you needed bodies.   

Now I'm not sure why this is, that many important storyline things happen through NPC characters, rather than through squadmates, but there it is.   Maybe its just something that makes the developer's jobs easier, because an NPC may not need quite as much development work overall.   Maybe they fret a little more about squadmates, changing their design and their personalities, because we have to "work" with the squad, and mostly sort of like them, sometimes romance them.  

I expect a lot of the main story in ME3 to be carried from NPCs, maybe charismatic, impressive and interesting ones like TIM, but still NPCs.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu, all I can hear you saying anymore is BLAH BLAH BLAH me don't wantz no ME2 characters! BLAH BLAH BLAH moar new characters me wantz moar! Stupid ME2 characters me hates! BLAH BLAH BLAH here logic is I do why!

Ah, "BLAH BLAH BLAH", the fancy rhetoric trying to BLAH BLAH itself to pass on as logic... Cerberus War Kittens have dismissed that claim:

[Zulu_DFA]

Nivenus wrote...

If none of the ME1 or ME2 squad members are recruitable in ME3 I will, frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third time.

Have you read the OP? Liara and Virmire Janus will be recruitable. They are unkillable, and a must.

[HTTP 404]

Peppard wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...    
ME2 was sort of flexible, since the main story was almost out of focus (Ah, "Reapers"...), and the squadmates got their showtime regardless. But ME3 has to meet both ends. The squadmates have to fit in the plot, and the high degree of their quality must be reached in the course of the main story progerssion.

 The squadmates have to fit in the plot, but they don't have to be central to it.  I'd argue that, for the most part,  in ME1, squad mates tended to appear with some new element to move along the plot, but after that, were kind of unnecessary.   Hi Tali...oh, you have evidence against Saren? Thanks, now wait in the hold until the game is done.   Say hi to Garrus, because he's waiting there too. What's that Liara? Ah yes, I'll take you out to kill your mother, THEN you can wait in the hold.  Thanks for sifting around in my mind to try to help me unlock the mystery, but you know,  I'll still need another 2 NPCs to really explain WTF  I saw, because you aren't an important enough character to carry that dialog apparently.

    Same thing in ME2...In terms of the main plot of "stopping the collectors", most of the heavy lifting was done by TIM and EDI far as exposition went.    Mordin had some storyline stuff too, but the rest of characters, endearing or annoying as they were, kind of could have been replaced by any of the other characters except you needed bodies.   

Now I'm not sure why this is, that many important storyline things happen through NPC characters, rather than through squadmates, but there it is.   Maybe its just something that makes the developer's jobs easier, because an NPC may not need quite as much development work overall.   Maybe they fret a little more about squadmates, changing their design and their personalities, because we have to "work" with the squad, and mostly sort of like them, sometimes romance them.  

I expect a lot of the main story in ME3 to be carried from NPCs, maybe charismatic, impressive and interesting ones like TIM, but still NPCs.

great points!  I agree with what you said just not as cynic as you said it.  I think we shouldnt be "pissed" off on whether a squadmate returns to ME3 since they really have little to no weight on the story, especially when NPCs have shown that they have more impact on the storyline.  (fyi storyline does not equal to gameplay)

[Speakeasy13]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu, all I can hear you saying anymore is BLAH BLAH BLAH me don't wantz no ME2 characters! BLAH BLAH BLAH moar new characters me wantz moar! Stupid ME2 characters me hates! BLAH BLAH BLAH here logic is I do why!

Ah, "BLAH BLAH BLAH", the fancy rhetoric trying to BLAH BLAH itself to pass on as logic... Cerberus War Kittens have dismissed that claim:

Zulu, you've admitted yourself that you wanted no old characters to return because you don't like most of them. So don't try to pass on your own selfish rhetoric as if it were logic. You just want the devs to bend to your will, that's all.

[Nivenus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Have you read the OP? Liara and Virmire Janus will be recruitable. They are unkillable, and a must.

I did, and I miswrote.

What I meant was: if most or a substantial number of the ME1 or ME2 squad members are not recruitable in ME3 I will, frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third time

Modifié par Nivenus, 15 avril 2010 - 04:03 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Peppard wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...    
ME2 was sort of flexible, since the main story was almost out of focus (Ah, "Reapers"...), and the squadmates got their showtime regardless. But ME3 has to meet both ends. The squadmates have to fit in the plot, and the high degree of their quality must be reached in the course of the main story progerssion.

 The squadmates have to fit in the plot, but they don't have to be central to it.  I'd argue that, for the most part,  in ME1, squad mates tended to appear with some new element to move along the plot, but after that, were kind of unnecessary.   Hi Tali...oh, you have evidence against Saren? Thanks, now wait in the hold until the game is done.   Say hi to Garrus, because he's waiting there too. What's that Liara? Ah yes, I'll take you out to kill your mother, THEN you can wait in the hold.  Thanks for sifting around in my mind to try to help me unlock the mystery, but you know,  I'll still need another 2 NPCs to really explain WTF  I saw, because you aren't an important enough character to carry that dialog apparently.

    Same thing in ME2...In terms of the main plot of "stopping the collectors", most of the heavy lifting was done by TIM and EDI far as exposition went.    Mordin had some storyline stuff too, but the rest of characters, endearing or annoying as they were, kind of could have been replaced by any of the other characters except you needed bodies.   

Now I'm not sure why this is, that many important storyline things happen through NPC characters, rather than through squadmates, but there it is.   Maybe its just something that makes the developer's jobs easier, because an NPC may not need quite as much development work overall.   Maybe they fret a little more about squadmates, changing their design and their personalities, because we have to "work" with the squad, and mostly sort of like them, sometimes romance them.  

I expect a lot of the main story in ME3 to be carried from NPCs, maybe charismatic, impressive and interesting ones like TIM, but still NPCs.

And the old squadmates have already done their unique part in stopping the Reapers. Now all they can do is just sit waiting in the hold until a mood strikes Shepard to take them out on a mission. The ME new guys will be stunned: who are all these people? But having this ballast by default they won't be so much interested in going back to ME1&2 as if they knew that they could have up to 12 cool cameos if they had an import file.

[Zulu_DFA]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu, all I can hear you saying anymore is BLAH BLAH BLAH me don't wantz no ME2 characters! BLAH BLAH BLAH moar new characters me wantz moar! Stupid ME2 characters me hates! BLAH BLAH BLAH here logic is I do why!

Ah, "BLAH BLAH BLAH", the fancy rhetoric trying to BLAH BLAH itself to pass on as logic... Cerberus War Kittens have dismissed that claim:

Zulu, you've admitted yourself that you wanted no old characters to return because you don't like most of them. So don't try to pass on your own selfish rhetoric as if it were logic. You just want the devs to bend to your will, that's all.

I like Zaeed, Legion, Samara, Miranda, even Garrus. Of those who made it, that is. But I want them to move on, like start their own teams to back my team up in the final battle, or something, and make room for new characters, that'll give me more entertainment (simply put, telling me somethng about the ME universe and Reapers, that I don't already know), than just hugging my PC's display with screams like "Hey, Zaeed, old bro, wussup?" and "Miranda, my digital love, let's go have digital sex right now!"

[Substance-E]

Nivenus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Have you read the OP? Liara and Virmire Janus will be recruitable. They are unkillable, and a must.

I did, and I miswrote.

What I meant was: if most or a substantial number of the ME1 or ME2 squad members are not recruitable in ME3 I will, frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third time

No body would and it would slow down the final confrontation with the reapers in one from or another to introduce a whole separate crew and build up their back plots...

"What's that? The Reapers finally reached the Milky Way are systematically wiping out systems one after another? Well chill, Jimmy here owes his uncle money and totally doesn't have it causing me to vow to help him get out of embarrassing debt asap."

[Zulu_DFA]

Nivenus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Have you read the OP? Liara and Virmire Janus will be recruitable. They are unkillable, and a must.

I did, and I miswrote.

What I meant was: if most or a substantial number of the ME1 or ME2 squad members are not recruitable in ME3 I will, frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third time

Mass Effect 3 has to be a new game, not an ME2 X-pack.

[Zulu_DFA]

Substance-E wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Have you read the OP? Liara and Virmire Janus will be recruitable. They are unkillable, and a must.

I did, and I miswrote.

What I meant was: if most or a substantial number of the ME1 or ME2 squad members are not recruitable in ME3 I will, frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third time

No body would and it would slow down the final confrontation with the reapers in one from or another to introduce a whole separate crew and build up their back plots...

"What's that? The Reapers finally reached the Milky Way are systematically wiping out systems one after another? Well chill, Jimmy here owes his uncle money and totally doesn't have it causing me to vow to help him get out of embarrassing debt asap."

Cut this "loyalty" crap, please. In ME2 it was a gameplay mechanic. In ME3 the gameplay mechanic must be this.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Have you read the OP? Liara and Virmire Janus will be recruitable. They are unkillable, and a must.

I did, and I miswrote.

What I meant was: if most or a substantial number of
the ME1 or ME2 squad members are not recruitable in ME3 I will,
frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third
time

Mass Effect 3 has to be a new game, not an ME2 X-pack.

Says who you? Did you just miss how absolutely horrible that turned out for their save transfer system in ME2? Obviously they want to make it feel as much like a continuation as they possibly can.

ANYWAYS you're really great at dismissing anything anyone else has to say, but the reality is that you're f*cking dumb. And I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on out. No sense in arguing to a big stupid wall.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 15 avril 2010 - 04:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP you're really great at dismissing anything anyone else has to say, but the reality is that you're f*cking dumb. And I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on out. No sense in arguing to a big stupid wall.

It was an honor to have you here.

[Nightwriter]

EA_BiowareAccount wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu, all I can hear you saying anymore is BLAH BLAH BLAH me don't wantz no ME2 characters! BLAH BLAH BLAH moar new characters me wantz moar! Stupid ME2 characters me hates! BLAH BLAH BLAH here logic is I do why!

thats the best counter argument EVER.  let's not discuss the topic and just insult people.  its the best way to win arguments.

Bah, Zulu and I do this all the time. He is my favorite forum opponent.

He knows our discussions will eventually devolve into the above and he will end up posting a Cerberus kitty picture that breaks my concentration completely and makes me start laughing again.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ah, "BLAH BLAH BLAH", the fancy rhetoric trying to BLAH BLAH itself to pass on as logic... Cerberus War Kittens have dismissed that claim:

Oh! Look at that! Ha ha!

Cerberus kitties always funny. Me likey.

[Substance-E]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Substance-E wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Have you read the OP? Liara and Virmire Janus will be recruitable. They are unkillable, and a must.

I did, and I miswrote.

What I meant was: if most or a substantial number of the ME1 or ME2 squad members are not recruitable in ME3 I will, frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third time

No body would and it would slow down the final confrontation with the reapers in one from or another to introduce a whole separate crew and build up their back plots...

"What's that? The Reapers finally reached the Milky Way are systematically wiping out systems one after another? Well chill, Jimmy here owes his uncle money and totally doesn't have it causing me to vow to help him get out of embarrassing debt asap."

Cut this "loyalty" crap, please. In ME2 it was a gameplay mechanic. In ME3 the gameplay mechanic must be this.

And in ME1 it was 100% optional character enrichment (less so than ME2 but still), there not being some kind of side quest system in ME3 were new team members introduced is about as likely as some kind of "What a twist!" ending where the Reapers are good and is humanity that's actually killing all life in the galaxy

[Maera Imrov]

Nivenus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Have you read the OP? Liara and Virmire Janus will be recruitable. They are unkillable, and a must.

I did, and I miswrote.

What I meant was: if most or a substantial number of the ME1 or ME2 squad members are not recruitable in ME3 I will, frankly, be very pissed off. I don't want to start from scratch a third time

So will I. I seriously will not buy the game. Seeing how the story ends? That's what Youtube is good for. I play RPGs for story, and getting attached to characters and plotlines. I have done this. Introducing a new squad at the end of a trilogy is the most pointless thing I have ever heard, and I'll be completely blunt: I don't like Kaidan/Ash and Liara enough to care if they made it into 3 or not. They will, but it doesn't matter two straws to me. It's the rest of the ME1 crew, and certain members of the ME2 crew that I want to see. Reducing them all to cameos and making me gather a whole new crew that just so happens to be all set for the big finale is far too 'convenient'.

Olook, a kitten. How cute.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP you're really great at dismissing anything anyone else has to say, but the reality is that you're f*cking dumb. And I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on out. No sense in arguing to a big stupid wall.

It was an honor to have you here.

I got one last thing to say, your arguments would have merit if it weren't for the fact that you actually have more chance personal interaction with every single member of your entire squad in ME2 than any single member of your squad from ME1.

So ya this whole argument really does come down to how much you don't like some ME2 characters, and hey there are a few I really don't like either because they really have no place in the story, but there's more going on in a video game than a simple story and when it comes down to it Bioware isn't going to serve the middle finger to a large portion of their fanbase just cuz a couple people don't like this or that character.

So really the solution is already presented for you. If you don't want them in your ME3 KILL THEM. Problem solved!

[Nightwriter]

Zulu, let's get to the heart of the matter, shall we?

WHY DO YOU HATE THE ME2 CHARACTERS.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP you're really great at dismissing anything anyone else has to say, but the reality is that you're f*cking dumb. And I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on out. No sense in arguing to a big stupid wall.

It was an honor to have you here.

I got one last thing to say, your arguments would have merit if it weren't for the fact that you actually have more chance personal interaction with every single member of your entire squad in ME2 than any single member of your squad from ME1.

So ya this whole argument really does come down to how much you don't like some ME2 characters, and hey there are a few I really don't like either because they really have no place in the story, but there's more going on in a video game than a simple story and when it comes down to it Bioware isn't going to serve the middle finger to a large portion of their fanbase just cuz a couple people don't like this or that character.

So really the solution is already presented for you. If you don't want them in your ME3 KILL THEM. Problem solved!

As I said, I wouldn't mind an ME3 with 20 squadmate slots, 50 recruitable characters and 1000 lines of dialogue for each of them. I forgot to mention, though, that I would be upset by having to pay $500 for it. And (for the sake of the dumb, I reiterate that it is my personal opinion) in the final chapter of the trilogy, the develorers must concentrate on the consequences of the "BIG CHOICES", rather than on extra squadmates.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu, let's get to the heart of the matter, shall we?

WHY DO YOU HATE THE ME2 CHARACTERS.

I don't hate all of them. Some of them I liked, namely, Zaeed (active), Legion (active), Mordin (KIA), Samara (active), Jack (KIA). I felt neutral to Miranda (and romanced her for "the looks", active), Jacob (KIA), Garrus (active). But I don't want any of them to steal development resources from the "BIG CHOICES" resolution.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP you're really great at dismissing anything anyone else has to say, but the reality is that you're f*cking dumb. And I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on out. No sense in arguing to a big stupid wall.

It was an honor to have you here.

I got one last thing to say, your arguments would have merit if it weren't for the fact that you actually have more chance personal interaction with every single member of your entire squad in ME2 than any single member of your squad from ME1.

So ya this whole argument really does come down to how much you don't like some ME2 characters, and hey there are a few I really don't like either because they really have no place in the story, but there's more going on in a video game than a simple story and when it comes down to it Bioware isn't going to serve the middle finger to a large portion of their fanbase just cuz a couple people don't like this or that character.

So really the solution is already presented for you. If you don't want them in your ME3 KILL THEM. Problem solved!

As I said, I wouldn't mind an ME3 with 20 squadmate slots, 50 recruitable characters and 1000 lines of dialogue for each of them. I forgot to mention, though, that I would be upset by having to pay $500 for it. And (for the sake of the dumb, I reiterate that it is my personal opinion) in the final chapter of the trilogy, the develorers must concentrate on the consequences of the "BIG CHOICES", rather than on extra squadmates.

Which is exactly why they should continue with the characters they already have instead of concentrating on a whole new squad.

They're probably going to add a couple new characters too, but there's no question that the story isn't going to focus on the squad next time around.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 15 avril 2010 - 05:00 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP you're really great at dismissing anything anyone else has to say, but the reality is that you're f*cking dumb. And I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on out. No sense in arguing to a big stupid wall.

It was an honor to have you here.

I got one last thing to say, your arguments would have merit if it weren't for the fact that you actually have more chance personal interaction with every single member of your entire squad in ME2 than any single member of your squad from ME1.

So ya this whole argument really does come down to how much you don't like some ME2 characters, and hey there are a few I really don't like either because they really have no place in the story, but there's more going on in a video game than a simple story and when it comes down to it Bioware isn't going to serve the middle finger to a large portion of their fanbase just cuz a couple people don't like this or that character.

So really the solution is already presented for you. If you don't want them in your ME3 KILL THEM. Problem solved!

As I said, I wouldn't mind an ME3 with 20 squadmate slots, 50 recruitable characters and 1000 lines of dialogue for each of them. I forgot to mention, though, that I would be upset by having to pay $500 for it. And (for the sake of the dumb, I reiterate that it is my personal opinion) in the final chapter of the trilogy, the develorers must concentrate on the consequences of the "BIG CHOICES", rather than on extra squadmates.

Which is exactly why they should continue with the characters they already have instead of concentrating on a whole new squad.

They're probably going to add a couple new characters too, but there's no question that the story isn't going to focus on the squad next time around.

Have you played ME1? It wasn't focused on the squad. Yet only one squadmate was there from the start. And it worked out.

I doubt it'll work out at all if we're stuck with the used up squadmates, that can't have a plausible reason to come up with new fuel for the main plot. And the customers demand more interaction with the squad. What'll we be talking to them about? Weather?

[Peppard]

zulu wrote

And the old squadmates have already done their unique part in stopping the Reapers. Now all they can do is just sit waiting in the hold until a mood strikes Shepard to take them out on a mission. The ME new guys will be stunned: who are all these people? But having this ballast by default they won't be so much interested in going back to ME1&2 as if they knew that they could have up to 12 cool cameos if they had an import file.

 
   No, I do not think they'd be stunned that a character who has twice saved the galaxy (or at least humanity)  happens to already have an assembled team at his or her command.  Recruiting people to be on your team, while a common activity in RPG's, is by no means a necessary component of the story, especially given that this is the third act of a story.    Anyone picking up the third act in a trilogy sort of has to be prepared for the feeling of "hm, maybe this would mean more if I'd played the first 2 parts."

While maybe making  the entire ME2 squad  part of a "default new game" set up,  might decrease incentive to play ME2 (shouldn't affect ME1), I'm not sure that "ooh, you could have up to 12 cool cameos" would be much incentive to go back and play ME2 if you hadn't already.   So to the extent you think players need to be motivated to go back and replay, shouldn't you be thinking that the squad should return in ME3 as more than just cameos? That would increase replay value for ME2.  On the other hand, maybe replay value for the "old" game just isn't that important, if we're back to your argument that content needs to be seen by the most number of players possible.    

I do think they will be likely to design it in a way that encourages people to buy DLC or buy the game new, since that's how BW makes the money.    I'm starting to think there'd be a good chance that at least for Kasumi and Zaeed, who originally were DLC, that to the extent they appear again, they'd be DLC again.   

Finally, I think you are still collapsing a few different concepts together.   Just because characters aren't necessary to the main plot, does not mean that they have to be completely absent from the story, literally adding nothing to the game other than another character class/skill set.  

Just to illustrate what I mean, here's an example (one I've seen thrown around some by other people). Tali is  a popular example, but mainly because she's a popular character and the Quarian/Geth struggle begs to be resolved.  So imagine there's a story arc involving the Quarians and the Geth that ties into the main battle against the Reapers.  I believe you'be posted something about Admiral Xen before....I think she'd make a great mini-villian-boss type fight.  You can easily imagine that IF you have Tali alive, and in your squad, she has more to say to Admiral Xen.  If she's not in your squad, or is dead, then you miss on a little extra dialog but other than that, the whole combat side to the mission, and how the side mission plays into the fight against Reapers, could be exactly  the same. So the mission could reflect Tali, but would not require her to be there.  That same mission could also reflect Legion, but again, not require him to be there.    
 
Anyway, there's lots of things the developers *could* do, and have said they're looking into doing (at least).    The only reason I end up posting about it all, is because well, I just like the discussion of the possibilities itself, sometimes, as much as playing the game.   

 

[Nivenus]

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

The best idea for a party in my mind, is to let players bring a team of about a dozen characters in the game. They choose these characters from the combined ME1 and ME2 rosters, plus maybe two or three extra new characters. They can't bring everyone, but they can bring who they think will make the best team.

It gives the game strong replay value, while also letting everyone have what they want. And if it takes them longer to design it than ME1 to ME2 I'm fine with that. I'd rather they take their time and put out an excellent, refined product than rush it out the door with the hopes of cashing in on fans' hopes more quickly.

Modifié par Nivenus, 15 avril 2010 - 07:32 .